Suggestion for next major version of Winamp?

[ChiggyChiggy]

Why not use one of the better looking cPro skins as the new default for the 6.xx series? Winamp's Bento has been around since god knows when and its very dated. While its great and all (and also one of the best functional skins at that) It feels stagnant and reminiscent of the early XP times in terms of design, something that most new users could and would be put off by. (in comparison to the high possibility that theyre used to iTunes's flashy rather attractive looks)

Theres even a Bento inspired cPro Dark Aluminum that looks really nice and modern yet fully functional just like the original Bento.

Its author is even a forum regular so it would add up nicely! The current Bento could be added as an option to use just like currently Winamp lets you use the 2.xx skin.

[garetjax]

heh, ITunes = Flashy.

Um...Yea, CPRO Is a plugin and a Single User Interface, meaning everything is there right in front of the eye. It is a great plugin however, it is built by a user group and not Winamp, Nullsoft or etc.

Though, I like your thought process...I don't think this is the right approach. I think that Winamp should be simplified more than 'extended'.

I believe, just as websites now are 'bootstrapping' heh. Maybe, in a way so the design of Winamp should follow. Bootstrap itself, and simplify its design.

[Victhor]

Originally Posted by ChiggyChiggy

Why not use one of the better looking cPro skins as the new default for the 6.xx series? Winamp's Bento has been around since god knows when and its very dated. While its great and all (and also one of the best functional skins at that) It feels stagnant and reminiscent of the early XP times in terms of design, something that most new users could and would be put off by. (in comparison to the high possibility that theyre used to iTunes's flashy rather attractive looks)

Theres even a Bento inspired cPro Dark Aluminum that looks really nice and modern yet fully functional just like the original Bento.

Its author is even a forum regular so it would add up nicely! The current Bento could be added as an option to use just like currently Winamp lets you use the 2.xx skin.

Well.. let's see, first of all, thanks for the suggestion, I feel kind of flattered

Then, you're right about Winamp needing a new face or skin, feels like right now is the appropriate moment. I don't know if Radionomy designers aren't already considering this possibility and doing / planning something new to get along with their entire renovation of the brand (which would be the logic thing to do if you look at it from a Marketing point of view..).

I'm convinced that cPro (1 & 2) style is more complete and flexible than Bento, but:
1- It was already suggested to use it as a main skin and discarded mainly because of what Garetjax said, it is not a Nullsoft / Radionomy property so it would have to be acquired somehow, and that would pretty much hurt the cPro plugin itself since development on it won't depend anymore on their creators, instead it would be subject to a company's politic and protocol.. and we already know how that turns out eventually (AOL Winamp dev frozen for years).
2- In my opinion, it is not the right kind of skin to be deployed with Winamp, basically because it lacks the ability to be used in touchscreens (among other reasons..).


So, I've already did some research to propose a new Winamp default skin last year right before the shutting down news went on.. (I had only 2 or 3 weeks until then). I was basically gathering info on modern design styles and writing down some ideas to solve some of the interface issues I was facing when looking at Bento or Winamp Modern (it was part the "touchscreen friendly" and a lot of funcionality stuff). Maybe someday I'll share my drafts from it..
BUT, not only that stopped because of the Winamp shutdown, but also because I realised I'm not up to the challenge in the coding aspect of things, a lot of things would have need to be implemented via scripts and that's my limit, so even if I would go on, I would have to team up with someone actively working on modern skins, with some free time (a lot actually) and a deep knowledge of Wasabi. I couldn't find a person who had all of this (toghether)..

Anyway, I wouldn't loose hope on seeing something new in Winamp's aesthetic, like I said it would be just the-right-thing-to-do, but for now there is no news in sight about it..


-Now I'm leaving in a rush, so I won't check the long post, sorry for any misspelling and / or english nonsense -

[ChiggyChiggy]

But havent 3rd party plugins been incorporated into Winamp itself before? The replaygain feature of Winamp if im not mistaken at first was by a plugin but then got incorporated. then theres JTFE which is you could say an incorporated 3rd party plugin that isnt assimilated fully into Winamp since it has @DrO's branding on it.


Altho DrO you could say IS Nullsoft currently so i guess thats not the best of examples...

[ChiggyChiggy]

Come to think of it, hansnt cPro development kind of stopped? If Radionomy needed people to work on the next default skin they could hire from the cPro team, since otherwise there isnt any advancement on the cPro side since some time now..

perhaps a Big cPro so that it suits touchscreens to be like what big bento is currently in Winamp, but even more optimized, hmm...

[Victhor]

Well, actually you have a good point here. Like you point out, there's already an example (maybe 2) of plug-ins turned into a native function within Winamp, and cPro could go that way, but we still have the main issue of creators not really wanting that.

Anyway, having someone "inside", understanding things deep enough (like DrO knows his stuff) would be really helpful. In fact, the creator of Bento is also one of the main devs of cPro, but sadly he isn't even using Winamp anymore... =(

---

PS / EDIT: cPro development hasn't stopped, it's just being paused, I'm in touch with PJN123 and I can assure you there are still plans to update the plug-in soon..

[Victhor]

Maybe next release of Winamp looks something like this:





:: screenshot of the skin I'm about to launch ::

[Sabine Klare]

Your screenshot looks very interesting. Will there be also Color Themes?...

[Victhor]

a lot!! In fact, the preview you see there is a color theme called Shoutcast.

[DrO]

it's not been decided what will or will not happen with the default skin on installing. though with everything that needs to be done in relation to core functionality that needs to be replaced post-AOL, doing a new skin (or even the possibility of a new skin engine) is probably on the limit of immediate things which can be done for the time being.

and i had considered a cPro skin (or something based on it) being a new default skin, but it's so hard to please everyone with things (i remember the backlash when Bento arrived in 2007 and the same thing that happened with Winamp Modern in 2003) and with the changing of PCs are interacted with, being more touch friendly (somehow) would make more sense for the default Winamp skin (hence switching from Bento to Big Bento as the default skin on new installs with the internal builds which helps a bit but not that much on most of the 'too small' complaints).


the JTFE plug-in (*) was agreed to be shipped without code access and that has been honoured since. the same i believe could be done with cPro as well (if that was to be a considered option), and is no more different than having to blindly ship the Gracenote pre-compiled dlls or anything else which has been bundled with Winamp over the years.

yes it's nicer to have everything built from source at the same time as everything else, but it's not something that has to happen.


as for Nullsoft, it's only been a legal entity for years so it's better to think of things as Winamp rather than Nullsoft as such now (and i'm definitely not happy about being thought of as Nullsoft - i'm just the current custodian of things and who knows who'll have the keys).


so i don't know what's going to happen when it comes to the ui (the most that i've done was allowing for classic skins to be loaded from png file and may be able to sneak in a few other things to sort out some of the bugs with classic skins to make them a bit more comparable to modern skins without breaking things too much). but whether we'll get a new default skin or quite what is still up in the air (though i'm still pushing for some means of going OS native instead of being skinned.... but that's being covered elsewhere).


(*) though as time has gone, i've gradually added some aspects of the plug-in natively into Winamp and as time allows will probably continue to do so which may mean the death of the plug-in - just like i've done with a number of my plug-ins as part of the 5.64-5.66x phase where it's just easier to have the functionality natively included instead of done as a plug-in.

[Victhor]

Originally Posted by DrO

..(though i'm still pushing for some means of going OS native instead of being skinned.... but that's being covered elsewhere).

Never got what you mean by that (not the previous time you mentioned it, not now..), do you mean to use something un-skinned like VLC does? Which would force Winamp to offer a "skinned mode" too.

In such case, and mixing it with what you say about being hard to please everyone.. maybe the best way to look at it is: If everyone will complain whether things are done X, Y or Z, then the real question is "for wich decision would you like to be blamed for?".. then I guess, the answer should be something like "for the one that I/we think is the best decision to do things better"..

So.. I went too far on my thinking.. basically I'm just trying to support why I would go for a new default skin.. looking foward, improve, do things better..

By the way, this kind of decisions aren't subject to some sort of design or marketing division?


PS: Welcome back DrO, it's been a couple of days without you here, were you sick or something?

[DrO]

when i say non-skinned, i mean it looking like a native Windows program instead of as we currently are. now whether that is done via actual native OS drawing or psuedo-skin like mode which makes Winamp look like a native Windows program is a different matter. so yes, i guess something like VLC or foobar2000 or even WMP (since they can offer a bit of skinning, but nothing like the complexity of a modern skin).

it's something i've seen come up a lot over the years and in some respects it'd make Winamp better fit with some of the newer OS styles without the complaints that come from the skinned look not matching with anything else. so it could be another option and would be a 'native skin' as such (if that makes sense).

obviously it wouldn't be something that means removing the existing skinned support (i'd never live it down doing that and i like classic skins too much ), but it's an alternative option to trying to go a true new skin route whilst still offering something new and which has been often requested. though it'd still fall under how to do it (multi-windows vs sui or some sort of hybrid, etc).

was my annual week's holiday

[Victhor]

Hmmm... my inner designer is in conflict with my practical mind.. TBH I don't like the idea of going native like that (I'm even stranged some users ask for it..), in part it feels like betraying the original spirit of innovation Winamp was known by, but at the same time, other way would feel like going against the trend of responsive design..
I understand the need to avoid some.. skinning decisions.. having a design up-to-date with the current OS look would solve a lot of problems.. but it would only make sense if the skinning engine changes somehow.. (wouldn't that be a pain on the ...?)

Obviously using a pseudo-skin that "looks like a native skin" may not be a good idea IMO, if I understood correctly, that would be the same as having a new default skin but choosing the look of a specific OS.. basically Win Vista / Win7 (Aero style) or Win8 (Metro style), am I right? (which could actually be relatively solved by directing the user to a specific skin whether it is on one OS or the other). And not to mention the need to use WASABI sooner or later.. which would make the "new" "skin" a whole pantomime..

Anyway.. is a hard decision I guess.. it is impossible to please not even "everyone", it's impossible to please MOST!! Finally, my question is, wouldn't that (native look) arise more questions like "where is Bento? / where is Winamp Modern?" / "My Winamp did not load any skin!". What would be "heavier"? That or "I don't like the new skin, I'm switching back to Bento"...

Questions, questions, questions...

[MrSinatra]

I just hope Bento or something close to it remains as an option if not the default. it does what I need it to.

I might try a new default skin, but I don't want some slick eurotrash appleish looking thing. I like the "toolbox" feel of Bento that allows power users to leverage the app, presents a lot of info, etc... I'm not saying Bento can't be better or improved, but that for me, the less is more approach isn't true.

winamp should go with whatever is best for winamp/the majority, but I'm not convinced that slicker / less is the right direction.

[Aminifu]

As to the UI, I think the important factor here is "power users". Power users should be able to find and manipulate what they need and the majority of users are not power users, imo.

The current majority are probably more interested in a slick, less is more approach focused more on visual aspects such as album art and visualizations for music and scene thumbnails for video, with file management aspects moved to the background. Something that uses less display space than Bento by default, with the option to expand and drill down for features not directly needed to just play the media.

The native SUI approach is good for those who may not otherwise realize what all is available. The native classic approach (only displaying windows that are needed for the task at hand) is better for power users. This is why I like cPro's approach (combining aspects of modern and classic skins). My only issue with cPro is not being able to detach the video and visualizations panels. So, I'm in favor of a hybrid SUI approach.

[MrSinatra]

I should clarify that I meant a majority of winamp users, and likely potential winamp users. the distinction is important, b/c I think winamp should be a clear alternative to iTunes, meaning that winamp should NOT adopt the same, tired, 'less is more' ituneish approach.

I believe most winamp users are winamp users precisely b/c it is the opposite of iTunes, and that's the majority I was talking about. I could be wrong.

my bottom line point tho, is just that I want something like bento to remain, even if it isn't the default, but esp if slick wins out.

[Aminifu]

The masses will be swayed by the 'out-of-box experience', imo. So the UI needs to be both powerful and simple, not an easy balancing act to achieve.

Power users and the adventurous will be able to change things. As DrO said, "obviously it wouldn't be something that means removing the existing skinned support (i'd never live it down doing that and i like classic skins too much ), ..."

I've not tried iTunes for years, but I think the major objection to it is the way it will move and rename files by default. Unfortunately, for the majority of users of Apple hardware, Apple gives them little choice.

[DrO]

yet bento was purposefully made to make Winamp more iTunes like - and its not going to be dropped from being included (especially after the work I've done to fix some of the bento quirks).

its really that people keep complaining Winamp looks old and tired and so the only solution for that is to possibly do something new with the ui - whether its a new modern skin or a native "skin" or who knows what.

and its just thoughts as whatever is done people will complain - just look at the irrational comments thinking the bento skins will be removed when that was never mentioned as happening.

whatever happens, the means to select a skin on install will still remain (with the classic base skin finally added to the list of other native skins shown at the top of the list) and if there is a new skin included then that would also be in there (whether pre-selected as a default or not).

and it doesn't help that bento functionally is a good skin and could probably do with a colour / minor graphics overhaul instead of going for something from scratch i.e. make it lighter, different scrollbars, more control over the placement of the file info block (along the bottom edge maybe?) or who knows what.

[MrSinatra]

I think there is a major fallacy in a lot of software these days that equates efficiency of UI with sparseness. iTunes has def gone that direction.

while the objection to iTunes moving files is real, in my exp I have been able to deactivate that behavior in iTunes prefs. I think the objections to iTunes goes well beyond just that.

EDIT: the above was to Aminifu, the below is to DrO:

just b/c something isn't mentioned, doesn't mean it won't happen. all I said was I hope Bento remains, and that's hardly "irrational." glad to hear it will.

[Aminifu]

Originally Posted by DrO

and it doesn't help that bento functionally is a good skin and could probably do with a colour / minor graphics overhaul instead of going for something from scratch i.e. make it lighter, different scrollbars, more control over the placement of the file info block (along the bottom edge maybe?) or who knows what.

I agree that the current Bento functionally is good (quirks aside). Minor surface changes may help with perceptions; being able to move some of the panels around sounds like a good idea. American car makers succeeded for years with mostly surface changes in their 'new' models.

That still does not address the fact that many/most are hesitant to change defaults. The 'new' default UI needs to try to hit a 'home run'. It needs to look somewhat different, not necessarily be different. A drastic change in the look could also be a 'turn off', imo (unless it makes Winamp appear easier or more 'fun' to use).

There are no easy answers. Cosmetics are important, but for me it's what's 'under the hood' that counts.

[Victhor]

From cPro, this is a feature I'd like to see applied in Bento's tabs:





Auto Close Tab: when enabled, it will automagically close the abandoned / unused tab (and it'll only be opened by right click or some button trigger if there is..).
It would also solve the issue for those who don't want to see a video tab they don't use..

[Koopa]

Originally Posted by Victhor

Auto Close Tab: when enabled, it will automagically close the abandoned / unused tab (and it'll only be opened by right click or some button trigger if there is..).
It would also solve the issue for those who don't want to see a video tab they don't use..

Sounds cool.

I also hope that the Bento skin will accept the user browser someday, one of the most annoying things is, that any link you click in Winamp will open in the Bento browser.

[DrO]

Victhor: it's not like there are many tabs to start with and if video support is disabled, it should be hidden anyway (which should work better with some of the changes i've made internally). though i can see some benefit of trying to do something like that. also not sure as an alternative / addition, it might be good to allow for the whole tab block to collapse down if there is only one tab present or just in general (which re-appears on mouse-over?).

Koopa: that's all by design when using bento and some other skins. i guess an override option could be implemented (as i would need to check since i'm sure most of this is handled by the Winamp core).

[Victhor]

Yeah.. There aren't so many tabs in Bento, I'm too used to cPro where there are 2 more by default with 1 or 2 extras from some widgets..

And yes, now you point it out, TBH the "one tab closing" handle is kinda tricky, in fact i've recently told Pieter about a killer bug currently present in cPro when closing the last tabs with this.. (not funny at all..).

Anyway, the benefit is, besides the functionality for those obsessed with "killing tabs", is mainly aesthetic, it will clean the UI of unused buttons. So, IF it gets on the list you know it's absolutely low priority..

[DrO]

Originally Posted by Victhor

And yes, now you point it out, TBH the "one tab closing" handle is kinda tricky, in fact i've recently told Pieter about a killer bug currently present in cPro when closing the last tabs with this.. (not funny at all..).

i assume you mean how it'll make Winamp constantly crash or something like that? as that's what happened when i tried doing what you've described.

Originally Posted by Victhor

Anyway, the benefit is, besides the functionality for those obsessed with "killing tabs", is mainly aesthetic, it will clean the UI of unused buttons. So, IF it gets on the list you know it's absolutely low priority..

well that was why i was thinking it might be better to have it just hide the whole tab block instead of hiding things (since i'd probably just get it down to just the ML tab and with a single tab it's then silly having just that showing).

am sure something can be worked out to tweak how Bento works for the tab handling at some point...

[Aminifu]

My major concern with the Bento SUI is the amount of screen space used when running Winamp with other apps. The Bento SUI and the other apps are constantly blocking each other at inconvenient times.

The ML view needs a large amount of space to view things without a lot of horizontal scrolling. The other panels do not, but since it is a hassle to keep resizing (or moving) the overall SUI manually, I leave it at the size suitable for the ML view.

The cPro2 SUI solves this problem in 2 ways. Double clicking on a tab causes the overall SUI to maximize and return to the previously established size and position with another double click. In addition, the overall SUI can be set to at least 3 different sizes and screen positions and each arrangement saved to a function key. Then the function keys can be used to change the SUI's overall size and position (when the window has the focus). Along with the current minimize ability, this lets me quickly minimize, maximize, or select 1 of 3 intermediate sizes and positions. Adding these 2 features to Bento would greatly increase it's useability, imo.

[Victhor]

Originally Posted by DrO

i assume you mean how it'll make Winamp constantly crash or something like that? as that's what happened when i tried doing what you've described.

Exactly. At least is a constant bug hehe..

Originally Posted by DrO

am sure something can be worked out to tweak how Bento works for the tab handling at some point...

And now you know where to look at if something alike is considered

PS / EDIT: 1 more supporter for the idea =).

[Victhor]

Another one:

Titles INSIDE views from the ML, like this:



So, when collapsed there is a graphic indicator of which list is active:



It could be even more practical in saved Playlists..

(is it doable?)

[Aminifu]

I like your idea, Victhor. It would be even better if the selection title only displayed when the left side column was collapsed (when you otherwise couldn't see it).

[ryerman]

Originally Posted by Aminifu

My major concern with the Bento SUI is the amount of screen space used when running Winamp with other apps. The Bento SUI and the other apps are constantly blocking each other at inconvenient times....

Windowshade Mode allows the Bento SUI to very unobtrusive, almost unseen, and definitely out of the way of other apps.
One click toggles between Windowshade Mode and Main Mode.
Main Mode is the last view before switching to Windowshade Mode.

Not as versatile as cPro2 SUI but good enough perhaps.

[Aminifu]

Originally Posted by ryerman

Windowshade Mode allows the Bento SUI to very unobtrusive, almost unseen, and definitely out of the way of other apps.

That is certainly true. But things are so small on my screen, with my old eyes I'm better off just minimizing when I'm using Winamp to just play music in the background.

I do switch a maximized window to windowshade mode on occasion.

[DrO]

the area proposed is part of the actual library window and starts going towards the ill-fated 'banner' blocks on the top of the library views. so yes doable, but i'm really not sure and based on the prior attempt to have a title on things (which didn't last very long), i'm probably going to have to say no.

the nearest i can think off which wouldn't mean losing display space would to alter the tab name to be 'media library - <view_name>' (whether that's showing all the time or only when the tree is collapse). and it might even be a good time to change from 'media library' to just 'library'.

[MrSinatra]

one of my beefs with Bento, which I otherwise love, is the wasted space. there should be more tabs using that space/row; OR, optionally, the user should be allowed to have no tabs.

my suggestion would be the following:

when the ML tab is chosen, add a fourth button to the three button area, that collapses the tabs / adds the tabs back.

imo, you don't really need to do this for when other tabs are chosen, but it IS helpful for when ML is chosen, b/c screen real estate is precious for that tab's function.

I would also move these buttons to below the library button, and add a fifth button to collapse/add back the search box.

[DrO]

what do you mean by "three button area" ?

and i'm not getting what extra tabs you would even want added as it almost sounds like trying to fill the space (if you have the window sized that way) just for the sake of it.

as for some of the other things you're mentioning, without a mock ui i'm not following (other than it sounds like asking for something that then becomes very skin specific i.e. how you're expecting certain buttons to be placed).

[MrSinatra]

Originally Posted by DrO

what do you mean by "three button area" ?

and i'm not getting what extra tabs you would even want added as it almost sounds like trying to fill the space (if you have the window sized that way) just for the sake of it.

the three buttons next to the search box when in local library views. I'd add a 4th and 5th button and move 'em all under the big library button in the nav tree.

even if ur not into all that, adding a 4th button to control tabs seems ideal.

I know you don't like the idea of adding more tabs btw, we've talked about this before. I suggested adding a tab for the forum, a wiki, prefs, etc, but u don't like any of that. I was just saying that imo, tabs are better than wasted space, and they aren't just filling space for filling spaces sake. again, jmo.

[DrO]

moving things / adding to those 3 buttons is really not a viable option at all as that is specific to a library view and then leads to a very skin specific handling within the library which is not right to do things (especially as it'd only work if you were in a ml_local provided view).

the only real option is some means of hiding the tabs (most likely via options via the skins's specific settings or via a right-click action like cPro) and / or hiding the area (again able to be done via the skin specific settings or a right-click action or just auto-hiding it).

[Victhor]

Originally Posted by DrO

..i'm probably going to have to say no.

the nearest i can think off which wouldn't mean losing display space would to alter the tab name to be 'media library - <view_name>' (whether that's showing all the time or only when the tree is collapse). and it might even be a good time to change from 'media library' to just 'library'.

Given the amount of piled code & changes within Winamp I know that anything I suggest has a possibility of 95% of being hard or impossible to do =D.

Anyway, what you counter-propose is not as helpful as I intended (something across all winamp skins), but I would take your offer of "shrinking" the ML title to just "Library"..

Aminifu: Your suggest is also very good, but I think it's even harder..

[DrO]

i know why you've suggested the banner like thing, but as its already been tried and was not liked by the vast majority, it's not worth trying to do it again (and when it happened, it was something that really made me consider dropping Winamp).

and Aminifu's suggestion isn't that much more complicated than what you proposed for the always visible banner.

[Victhor]

Originally Posted by DrO

i know why you've suggested the banner like thing, but as its already been tried and was not liked by the vast majority, it's not worth trying to do it again (and when it happened, it was something that really made me consider dropping Winamp).

and Aminifu's suggestion isn't that much more complicated than what you proposed for the always visible banner.

Hahaha really? Sounds terrible!
Strange, I did searched for some suggestion like this but couldn't find it.. I would like to see the reactions hehe..

Anyway, this idea, like most I have/had should be optional and offer the ability to disable / enable it within prefs ("Winamp crowd" is unpredictable and any change should have the option "leave it as it was"..).. but too late now, just keep it in mind for my next idea =D.

[MrSinatra]

Originally Posted by DrO

moving things / adding to those 3 buttons is really not a viable option at all as that is specific to a library view and then leads to a very skin specific handling within the library which is not right to do things (especially as it'd only work if you were in a ml_local provided view).

I'm not sure its such a bad idea (b/c I think one only really needs to remove tabs while in ML view) but if you don't like that, how about this:

in the extreme top left corner is the "main menu" button, (mine's burnt orange, with oscilloscope icon). add two buttons like it [sizewise] to the right of it, but to the left of the word "WINAMP"

one controls if the tabs are there or not.

the other completely replaces the "collapse window" button in the extreme bottom right which wastes an entire row[s] of space.

therefore, on my laptop screen, you would recover at least 2 centimeters worth of space.

well worth it imo, and cleaner overall.

Originally Posted by DrO

the only real option is some means of hiding the tabs (most likely via options via the skins's specific settings or via a right-click action like cPro) and / or hiding the area (again able to be done via the skin specific settings or a right-click action or just auto-hiding it).

personally, I'd want a button to always be there to do it / undo it, something similar to what I just described above. its not unlike the "windowshade" button.

I'd also like a button, next to the "Library" button at the bottom of the nav tree, that would hide/reveal the entire search row, including the 3 button area and the clear search button. again, that would reclaim a lot of space and be far cleaner for the 90% of the time I don't need it. an easy on/off UI for the user.

just my ideas DrO, I hope they are worthy.