Old 27th March 2002, 16:21   #1
UnConeD
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'One' - Final Release

I just gave my first 0 star review, quoted below. I want to ask everyone here for feedback and their opinions on the subject.

http://www.winamp.com/plugins/detail...ponentId=98653


----------------------
No, this is not yet-another-Janne-Manne post intented to break down good presets. This is my honest review of this pack.

Apparently mister Tandiman thought copyright and intellectual property is just a joke. This pack is filled with Dynamic Movements that I've made. That's no problem, if it weren't that this pack fails to give any mention of me (or the author asked my permission). On top of that, almost all presets look like they were made with a blindfold: tons of effects thrown together without any real idea behind them. And the fact that some of my DM's were included *without rectangular coordinates turned on* (which makes them do exactly *NOTHING*) proves that the author didn't spend even 5 minutes on each preset.

So, why am I downrating this pack? Because it's a shameless rip of at least my work (and probably others too). And my presets and the readme that comes with them (and which opens up in your face after installing them) *specifically* say that you may use my work provided that a copyright message is included and provided that you ask me first.

The simple 'greetings to' is not the same as 'uses work by'... At times like these I wonder why I've been spending the last 4 months carefully crafting my next pack of AVS presets, while I can just throw random stuff together and get 5 stars anyway.
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Old 27th March 2002, 17:26   #2
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Now, when I have taken a closely look at the pack I see lots of "unprofessional" stuff, like writing a huge dynamove code when it's not even enabled, just like Steven said. Also you can definetly see couple rip-off dm's so I don't think your comment was another Janne-Manne comment, cause you said the right things

Btw. I'm not that Janne-Manne, jDm is
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Old 28th March 2002, 00:09   #3
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joaquim jardim

(In reply to 'joaquim jardim's post. I will not post the comment in the review section because I don't wish to lower the rating any further: I downrated it once, and that's all I want. I hope he reads it here.)

Quote:
Before someOne accuse other person of something, the first thing he should do is listen to what the other have to say. Why didn't you e-mail Dan, before vomiting in all his fans faces. It's not the first time I see you giving bad reviews to great works, just like Janne Manne. Do you know that The Beatles (Lennon/McCartney)composed some of their best songs in few minutes? Inspiration has NOTHING to do with amount of time. Everytime I went in contact with Dan, he always had very good words 'bout you, so I think you were totaly irresponsible with your accusation. I prefer a million times to believe in Frank Nagel words, he's a true gentleman and the true king of avs. I feel that you're only jealousy of Dan's success and talent. I just hoped that you had thought better and waited for Dan's answer, before rating 0 star one of the most amazing packs I ever saw. Shame on you, Mr. Wittens.
Why didn't I email Dan? Well, obviously mr. Dan didn't think it was worth his time to email me and ask for my permission. Therefor, I posted my review without *his* permission, which seems only appropriate. Mind you that I'm not posting this answer as another 0-star rating: I downrated it once, which was exactly what I wanted to do. You know just as well as I that that one 0-star rating isn't going to have much effect on an otherwise 5-star plug-in.

Maybe I did act out of 'jealousy'... after all, he got a five star review (remember that this means 'absolutely GREAT'!) for something that is based mostly on my work. But that doesn't invalidate my claim any bit, especially since I proved that my work was used simply as a way of 'upgrading' mediocre presets and without decent credit (proof: more than half the presets contain a DM or image by me... count them).
There was a time when imitation and copying was considered to be a mark of respect and honor. Thankfully, we now live in an age where creativity and innovation are considered valuable traits.

Oh, by the way, why are you pointing the finger at me? I didn't use someone else's work without giving credit... tell me, would it have been so hard to just email me? Or even just provide a clear credit line? No... the point is that he acted against my clear and simple requests and that's why I wrote that bad review. You're attacking me as if I have done something outrageous and bad. Simply because I wish to make sure that I get credit for the effort I've put into AVS.
Now if that is considered outrageous and bad, then this'll be the day that I withdraw from this community and try something else that *is* worth putting free time in.

And please, indicate those other times when I've downrated supposedly 'good' work without clearly providing arguments that support my opinion. That's more than I can say you did.

And Frank Nagel has nothing to do with this. I'm not in a competition with him and I respect his work, simply because it's also marked by creativity and innovativeness. You make it sound as if we're constantly trying to push eachother off the virtual throne of the AVS kingdom.

If you do reply, at least have the courtesy of writing a clearly constructed, argumentative post this time.
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Old 28th March 2002, 00:35   #4
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And it seems my original 0-star rating got removed. That, or the Winamp website is having some *extremly specific database errors*.

Jeesus... what is the rating system for? For only accepting 5 star ratings? In that case, what is the 0 star option for, when even properly argumented ratings get removed anyway?
I'm honestly disappointed in this community... I thought creating AVSes would be a fun experience if everyone just played nice, but it seems not so.

In light of all this censoring, I've decided to start archiving this thread. Thankfully I have my *own* webspace that is not controlled by an evil army of moderator monkeys, and if this thread is removed here, I'll put up my local copy there.

Maybe this thing got blown out of proportion, but only because the moderation and unbased replies were uncalled for. I'm simply defending my intellectual property: if some people wish to see me as a boogey-man who breaks down other people's work, you have the right to do so. Just remember that I go through the trouble of explaining the how and why of my actions... and that's more than I can say of some people.
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Old 28th March 2002, 00:58   #5
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My final post tonight. I have classes tomorrow, and intend not to waste more time here.

Apparently someone felt it would be only right to rate Whacko AVS III 0 stars too... (reminder: my original 0 star rating was removed) except they simply did the '0 stars' and forgot the argumentative reason again. Let's see if a night's sleep could add some brain to these people's cavities. I'm tired of talking against people who have their fingers stuck in their ears and don't even bother writing up serious replies like I do.

G'night.
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Old 28th March 2002, 05:13   #6
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Mr. Wittens,

First off, sorry to make you waiting. I got back home earlier today from campus work right after I got your email in order to reply your comments. This is serious, I didn't make it up. Since my english is not as good as you, I'll try my best to clear up the rants here and hope you'll understand.

Just a bit intro:
I am a long-time admirer of your art works since your very first pack. You've always been my avs hero no matter how bad or sarcastic your comments were. I'm agree with you that my skill is not at your level, I still have to learn a lot from you, no kidding here.
I wish I could do the same like you. And just like you do, I do my avs presets purely for *fun*, not to make money out of it, and I have zero intent to rip somebody's work for personal gains or even sell my name off using somebody's property. No, I repeat, hell NO!

I'm not sure if this goes along with your point of view, but the original mission of the ONE was to appreciate special people like YOU, the Masters of avs. Including Joaquim Jardim, he is a great motivator in the avs world, no one has such great motivation giving consistent reviews for years. (hint: don't you see those other popular names on 'Goodbye' preset?) Ok, maybe I didn't say that explicitly when I say 'Greetings' but I did really mean it. Also, I did this not just once, if you've seen 'Greetings' preset you'll find another 'bows and kudos' to avs community, which is including you and anybody who read this. Have you seen any other pack that mentions as many avs creator names as mine? Hope you see my point here. If I am a greedy person, who cares about that names????
Again, on the Author's comment it says: "Without you guyz, this not gonna happen. You're very welcome to jot down your comments."
I wrote that in case I failed to mention somebody's name because I might possibly be forgotten.

Don't get my wrong, I'm not trying to kiss someone's ring here...but I'm just telling you the TRUTH. I did this for appreciation

Ok, now these are the answers for your questions/comments:

Apparently mister Tandiman thought copyright and intellectual property is just a joke.

Please ponder the comment in 'ELVISion' preset.

That's no problem, if it weren't that this pack fails to give any mention of me (or the author asked my permission).

I might not asked you beforehand but I DID mention your name as I mentioned earlier above.

Dan didn't think it was worth his time to email me and ask for my permission.

You're right at this point. I didn't do it because I quoted your name
already eventhough it's not directly because I 'greet' to more than one person. (hint: 'Goodbye' preset)

And the fact that some of my DM's were included *without rectangular coordinates turned on* (which makes them do exactly *NOTHING*) proves that the author didn't spend even 5 minutes on each preset.

What...5 minutes on EACH presets you said?? In fact, I spent hours to make it "perfect", at least for me. What the rectangular coordinates has to do with 5 minutes presets then? If it does exactly nothing then why they made it as an option?

I proved that my work was used simply as a way of 'upgrading' mediocre presets and without decent credit (proof: more than half the presets contain a DM or image by me... count them).

If I used your 'DMs/image' and I mentioned your name, what's wrong with that?

The simple 'greetings to' is not the same as 'uses work by'...

Yup, it's not certainly the same.
Greetings is to someones whom you appreciate/honor to.
Almost any dictionary gives that definition.

I'm simply defending my intellectual property: if some people wish to see me as a boogey-man who breaks down other people's work, you have the right to do so.

I fully respect your intellectual property no matter what. *period*
Nope, I don't think you're a boogey-man or something like that.
Although I have a right to do so, I'll KEEP calling you an *outstanding* avs creator.

I'm tired of talking against people who have their fingers stuck in their ears and don't even bother writing up serious replies like I do.

If I had to left my work behind me just to write this reply, do you call that not serious???? Do you think that I'm just sitting idle and doing nothing every single minute? Mind you, I'm an excited student like you.

I know your feeling about this. Sorry if I didn't mention this earlier. Btw, I have no close-relationship with winamp.com staff at all. I don't even bother who they are.

I don't wanna go further on this argumentation thing, if this still annoys you in some ways or you don't like it so that you'll ask me to DELETE the ONE pack entirely from winamp.com or other websites, then by all means, I'll do it. Isn't that sound fair to you?

Thank you for your consideration and time.

bowing respectfully,
-danjoe
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Old 28th March 2002, 06:07   #7
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I just want to add my apology if I said something rude to you on my previous message. Sometimes, my temper is out-of-control.
Now, I look forward getting your replies.

peace out.
-danjoe
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Old 28th March 2002, 09:44   #8
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The fingers-in-the-ears part was a shout to those people who saw it fit to rate my work 0 stars too. It was in no way an attack to you (and I did not expect you to reply within 5 minutes). I'll just repeat it again for those people: argumentated, valid criticism is not the same as brainless cracking down. Maybe it got through to them this time.
Now back to the issue here.

The reason I take credit so seriously is because, like you say, it's the only thing we get from our work. I don't wish to get paid for it, I simply wish for credit to be given where credit is due. And again, in my opinion, saying 'greetings' is just saying hello to a friend or person you know. It's miles away from "uses work by", especially since my name was mentioned between other names whose work you did not use (e.g. joaquim, or deskmod, a website). Winamp.com has enforced a strict 'no-rip' policy, simply because they recognize that, in a free publishing community, when people start to steal and copy without giving a good mention of others, the whole idea of it is lost.
Now, don't think I just opened up your pack, looked at 3 presets and then started ranting about, screaming blood and murder. More than half of your presets contain the Dynamic Movement from Whacko AVS III's Aurora Borealis. Why? What is so special about that one, other than that it adds a 3D feeling to your preset? That's what I meant with 'a way to enhance mediocre presets'.
And here's the deal on the rectangular coordinates thingy: my 3D dm's are based on (x,y), rectangular, coordinates. So when you turn off the rect.coords, the DM's code stops doing anything, because AVS is no longer monitoring (x,y), but rather (d,r). Non-rectangular-coords movements are not uselss, they're simply different.
Some people in the reviews also complained about the speed, which suggests that your presets are too big and use too many effects at the same time. If you spend enough time on them though, you can usually remove some of the effects while still keeping the main look of the preset. That's what I meant with you 'spending only 5 minutes on each preset': it was a figurative description of the fact that these presets were, in my opinion, released too early and not yet worth 5 stars.

Here's a quote from the description: "My thanks goto those who contributed on this final release.". Contributed means that someone voluntarily helped you develop these presets (that might include others, but not me).

I'm not furious with you however: you apologized, and I whole-heartedly accept that. There's no reason to drag this on any further.
I'm just mad at the Winamp.com site which seems to deny the principles it's based on. Especially because you were not around when I posted my review, I find it *very* surprising that someone deleted it. The rating system is not meant to give out only 5 stars, it's meant to give authors feedback on their work. And my comment was exactly that.

Oh and I don't mind bad english when it's coming from a non-native English speaker: my native language is also not English.
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Old 28th March 2002, 21:16   #9
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Thanks for your replies, Steve

The fingers-in-the-ears part was a shout to those people who saw it fit to rate my work 0 stars too.

It must be some sort of hate from morons when they found that you're doing great and ppl rave about your works.

And here's the deal on the rectangular coordinates thingy: my 3D dm's are based on (x,y), rectangular, coordinates. So when you turn off the rect.coords, the DM's code stops doing anything, because AVS is no longer monitoring (x,y), but rather (d,r). Non-rectangular-coords movements are not uselss, they're simply different.

I agreed with you at this point.

Here's a quote from the description: "My thanks goto those who contributed on this final release.". Contributed means that someone voluntarily helped you develop these presets (that might include others, but not me).

Well, it includes you for sure. Contribution, for me, is something that you've done and someone carry your work out for something different. Like the discovery of lamp, for example, the founder of electricity has more or less contributed his works so that other ppl could pull something out of it and produce something "new".
I dunno, thats my opinion. I may be wrong.

I'm just mad at the Winamp.com site which seems to deny the principles it's based on. Especially because you were not around when I posted my review, I find it *very* surprising that someone deleted it. The rating system is not meant to give out only 5 stars, it's meant to give authors feedback on their work. And my comment was exactly that.

They should take the 0 stars out of the system if they just wanna reject 'bad' commentary. I will post my comment for One soon and give you the credits you're really deserved.

Oh and I don't mind bad english when it's coming from a non-native English speaker: my native language is also not English.

I hardly can tell whether or not you're a native speaker
Yours is terribly better than me..
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Old 28th March 2002, 21:39   #10
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Oops posted it twice =P its below =)
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Old 28th March 2002, 21:41   #11
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True......

Quote:
UnConeD --- Apparently mister Tandiman thought copyright and intellectual property is just a joke. This pack is filled with Dynamic Movements that I've made. That's no problem, if it weren't that this pack fails to give any mention of me (or the author asked my permission). On top of that, almost all presets look like they were made with a blindfold: [tons of effects thrown together without any real idea] Gives me a slow framerate =(..behind them. And the fact that some of my DM's were included *without rectangular coordinates turned on* (which makes them do exactly *NOTHING*) proves that the author didn't spend even 5 minutes on each preset.

True Ture half of them remind me of the [Aurora Borealis Preset]sp?



Quote:
UnConeD --- Oh and I don't mind bad english when it's coming from a non-native English speaker: my native language is also not
English.
Your English is alot better than most people I know...

---------------
Later...
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Old 29th March 2002, 00:12   #12
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Although I do not understand all that has gone on here it appears that this has happened - I will speak with my Moderators hat on (although I am not a mod of the AVS forums I regularly visit here):

Daniel Joe Tandiman has used some of UnConeD's stuff without explict permission. This from what I understand this is not on when submitting skins/plug-ins. It as in a way a rip.

It is common courtesy to ask before submitting (read the conditions) or at the very least explicitly acknowledge.

Unconed, there are channels to complain about this. Things actually do happen if you report it to the rip forums. It sounds heavy but is not really.

God only knows why your reveiw was removed. I have seen far worse stay and I think far worse still are ones that award 0 stars and give no reason at all! It should not have been removed.

Fault must also go toward the mysterious 'reviewers' of the plug-ins/AVsers. They should realise what is happening behind the scenes so they can award the ratings (eg originality, etc) accordingly.

I personally get confused/mildly offended when they award plug-ins 'wrong' ratings as they do not know what they are talking about.

Is it possible to add acknowledgement comments in your submission to the WA site with ALL the people's stuff that you have used. Hopefully then UnConeD and whoever else will be happy at this??

UnConeD, If not let me know and everyone else know?

I hope this helps sort things out.

Rovastar

PS Everybodies english seems to be better than mine ffs.

"Rules are for the guidance of wisemen and the obedience of fools"

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Old 29th March 2002, 02:54   #13
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The reason I didn't report it as an official rip was because:

a) It was praised by everyone else who reviewed it as 4.5 or 5 stars. I don't want to enforce my rating on others by having this item removed permanently.

b) I don't want to prevent or punish others from using my work, I simply wish to get credit for it.

c) This way, I could get the authors feedback... when a plug-in is reported as a rip, it is checked and if verified, removed without any further follow up. Not nice.


I do also get the idea that the AVS reviewers know little about AVS itself. Here are a few recent reviews (most are from the 5 star section, I'm too lazy to flip to page nr 1032 )...

Quote:
Tight collection... well worth checking out A large sized pack featuring quality presets... nice movements and patterns and all around good styles. 'Waterflows' was one that really caught my attention... very nice flow and concept. Defintely a pack worth grabbing... good for you eyes.
Quote:
Impressive collection here Quality presets all the way through... a large amount of them too. Original styles and concepts all carried out in a smooth and clean fashion. From 'Alien Surfs' to 'Drunk Driving' to 'Wanna Fight'... this collection will definitely please the majority of eyes out there... good for your brain.
Quote:
Very impressive AVS collection This is probably the best usage of the AVI and BMP rendering I have seen yet... expertly intertwined AVS visuals and patterns with AVI's and pictures. Tastefully used resulting in tightly woven visuals. Quality and diversity all the way through...excellent layering and movement... a collection your eyes need to see.
Quote:
A mini pack featuring some high quality visuals. These are very impressive presets... a great sense of design, spacing and timing. The level of flow and depth really bring these to life. Great usage of SVP loaders, pictures, and avi. Definitely check these out.
Quote:
Well worth checking out... quality AVS This is an excellent pack overall... smooth movement, solid color work, and original styles. 'Nowherland' (pictured here) and 'Planime' are especially good... tight styles. Quality visuals all the way through, a very nice download.
These reviews are not bad, but only a few of them really tell the reader something specific about the pack being reviewed. When something gets 5 stars, I know I can expect it to have 'tight visuals' or 'quality movements' already ...

I understand that reviewing submissions is something they do during their free time, so we should give them a break, but I don't think it serves anyone when a reviewer doesn't seem to know what to look for.
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Old 29th March 2002, 04:02   #14
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Quote:
Originally posted by UnConeD
I do also get the idea that the AVS reviewers know little about AVS itself.
True so true.

I was actually refering to the reveiw by the Winamp staff (5 for orginality, etc) Who I feel should know better.

"Rules are for the guidance of wisemen and the obedience of fools"

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Old 29th March 2002, 11:38   #15
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[Offtopic]Rova did you ever download the preset of yours i remixed in the md presets?[/offtopic]

I, Agree here... I know little about AVS but still know how to use it =P... But atleast i can tell thats UnConeD's work... Every few presets looks just like Auora Borealis [sp] =)..

My 2 Cents
__

Later
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Old 31st March 2002, 03:01   #16
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finally

finally someone realized that Tandiman=not even good. i rated iLove 1 or 2 out of 5 stars, and everyone thought i was downrating. but all iLove is is a bunch of avi's with random effects. and there fps are the lowest i've ever seen in a top rated pack because he puts things down that eat up FPS and dont even do anything.

and now with this one, he blatently steals unconned's DM's and gives ZERO credit. lol and they look about half as good as the originals. in my opinion, that is a rip (and a pretty crappy one).

and im just wondering... was i the "Isaac" in the goodbye preset? probably not but i just thought i'd ask cause it is a wierd name.

and as a note to tandiman- dude learn some real AVS stuff, like SS's and DM's. otherwise, your AVI's are doing all the work for you. I seriously hope those are AVI's that you created cause if there not than you seriosly have a problem with stealing shit and giving zero credit.

and i wanna know who joaquim jardim is cause he has a tendancy to rate everything 5 stars (besides my stuff haha... i think i pissed him off) and than think that anyone who gives it anything besides 5 stars is crazy.. haha smart guy.

i have to agree with unconned in saying that AVS raters know nothing about AVS... im starting to get to the point where i understand something about avs, and i realize that some of these supposedely great packs that get 5 stars are jsut randomly thrown together shit. for example- finnish flash... oh my god.... seriously.. 4 1/2 stars? i got one question.. why? it doesn't even look good...this week i think im gonna go DL a bunch of AVS's and rate them on how good i think they are, screw what everyone else says.

if someone stole my DM's and SS's, i would be really pissed. and if i had ones as good as unconned, i'd be outraged.. cause it takes so much skill to make those, and tandiman just takes them and everyone thinks hes a math genious when he just steals everything.

ok... time to go rate some packs...
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Old 31st March 2002, 03:49   #17
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Old 31st March 2002, 04:24   #18
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Note... we solved the issue: no hard feelings. There's no point in continuing the 'one' discussion. The AVS reviews is a good thing though, and I'm glad that I'm not the only one who feels that the reviews and ratings are sometimes off.
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Old 31st March 2002, 06:19   #19
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Sorry Steve for this, but AVS-ike's message in this forum drives me crazy and I really got pissed off by that.
Mr. Isaac De*********...I kindly ask you to please read my review on your 'Meltdown' pack before you throw your opinion here. I never force somebody to like my packs and i don't care if you rated 1, 2, or whatever stars on it. If you haven't seen my review, I wrote that people tend to have their own ways to explore their sense of art no matter how small or big their efforts was, and thats a part of their learning process. I'm not perfect, are you???

I put somebody's names whom I respect to in my presets but now what I get?...BAD WORDS!! Is this forum supposed to be a place to put bad words on people like me? Okay, I was failed to give "credits" (and not "greetings") for Unconed but I have no intent to overshadow him at all. Gooshh...I'd better delete those names since no one respect that or it doesn't give any good means to the person.

Steven, this is my humblest suggestion. If they still spit on my face and tear off my name like this, then my last hope is you, who has the power to control, to get rid this annoying forum. I'm sick and tired already. Thank you in advance.
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Old 31st March 2002, 16:57   #20
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k dude. heres a plan to solve all your problems: take down the "one" pack, put in credits, and re-release it.
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Old 31st March 2002, 17:05   #21
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sorry bout being pissed off and ripping on you. after reading the entire post carefully, i see that you weren't trying to rip off unconned's stuff. i realize i wasn't pissed off at you, i was just being gay about the fact that my release didn't even get noticed, and you got 4 1/2 out of five stars when you didn't do the DM's in it. and i know that for now on your gonna give proper credits, so i'm not pissed anymore.
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Old 31st March 2002, 18:02   #22
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Look... I started this topic to get feedback on giving credits and rip-issues, not so we can all bash eachother's presets.
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Old 31st March 2002, 20:37   #23
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Quote: Avs-Ike
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i have to agree with unconned in saying that AVS raters know nothing about AVS... im starting to get to the point where i understand something about avs, and i realize that some of these supposedely great packs that get 5 stars are jsut randomly thrown together shit. for example- finnish flash... oh my god.... seriously.. 4 1/2 stars? i got one question.. why? it doesn't even look good...this week i think im gonna go DL a bunch of AVS's and rate them on how good i think they are, screw what everyone else says.
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Hey, don't take our work as example of shitty 4,5 stuff , first collect the top avssers from YOUR contry and make an avs pack, then you can rate us as much as you want.
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