Old 8th April 2001, 20:29   #1
NeoRenegade
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As we all know, recently an American spy-plane collided with a Chinese fighter plane and had to make an emergency landing in Chinese territory.

The Chinese officials refuse to allow the Americans to return home because the American gov't has not issued a formal apology yet and shows no signs of willingness to do so.

The question is, is it just me or is the gov't really füçk!ng stubborn to not just apologize?

I mean, the Chinese pilot was killed and his widow and children are greaving for him now, and the US gov't's attitude is just that if anyone's to blame it was the Chinese pilot for being a "hot-shot".

What the hell is going on here? I'm sure Adolf Hitler would make a better president than George W Bush right now.
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Old 8th April 2001, 20:42   #2
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The thing is the Chinese plane cut off the American plane at an angle coming from underneath, but cut it too close -- at least that's what they're reporting here.
Even so, I think both sides owe each other an apology to maintain the not-horrible relations between the two countries. The Chinese owe the US an apology for unloading all of the top secret equipment that the plane contained, imo -- and they definitely owe the US their plane and their people back, even though they most likely know all the secrets by now

heh?
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Old 8th April 2001, 20:45   #3
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um...

Im not sure if you know that china just did one of the biggest arms deals in history and i think that they are trying to display power. by pushing big boy around namly us.
if you got blamed for a murder and were arested would you tell the persons parent sorry probaly not because you didnt kill that person you would probaly offer your sarrow. thats just what we did also they want us to applogiez for the accident but they also say we were in there air space when it happened. dont you think they would want us to applogies for invading there air space? i think they know they are at fault and hat if they make us applogize they wont be at fault in there countrymens eyes and they can keep on oppressing there country!
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Old 8th April 2001, 21:37   #4
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Quote:
Originally posted by bonj
The Chinese owe the US an apology for unloading all of the top secret equipment that the plane contained
Why? If I were a ruler of a country (don't you worry... someday... ), I'd bust your ass for spying in my country. It's not reasonable to expect to spy in another country, then get your equipment back when you are shot down (or collide with another plane; same dealie). Would you expect the USSR to return the U2 that went down in the 70's (?). No. China has no obligation to return criminals to their home country (capital offences, mind you. Not piddly crap like theives or counterfeiters; these are spies).

Personally, I'd like to see the crew returned at some point, but you must realize that they are indeed criminals, so they should be punished for a finite period of time.
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Old 8th April 2001, 21:46   #5
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The thing is, why won't Bush do the right thing, especially when men's freedom is at stake?

And from other recent news I form the hypothesis that Bush is a communophobic, Hitler-like, generally freaky and phucked up dude.
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Old 8th April 2001, 21:49   #6
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the fact they were spying was to watch army movments for the safty of thousands in other countries, wich china tries to brutaly diminsh. and for various other reasons and, the fact that the whole thing probaly was not our fault is even worse. we were trying to help and observe to stop war not to gain some knowledge on china. We are more advanced in that sence then they are. that would be like copying a test from a retard.
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Old 8th April 2001, 21:55   #7
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I still dont get y the US cant say 2 simple words, "We're sorry." It doesnt have to be from the heart, it can be one of those backhanded apologies. Theyll never know, plus its gonna get back 24 soldiers without further POW torture.
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Old 8th April 2001, 21:58   #8
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Who do you think you're fooling? China has not done anythign violent in ages.

You're wrongfully associating their alignment with that of the now defunct Soviet Union which was of course very invasive.

The problem is that the USA is extremely communophobic.
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Old 8th April 2001, 22:01   #9
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There is no distinction between good spying and bad spying. Spying is one of those rare things which cannot be justified for the greater good. It's like stealing a gun from a person known to have psychotic tendencies. Sure, you may be preventing future deaths, but the maniac has a constitutional right to bear arms. It's still taking his personal possesions. In the end, there is no difference between a chair and a gun; in the wrong hands, they can both become lethal weapons. So what are you going to do? Still all of the maniac's possesions? (The major problem in this case is that you are assuming that the psycho will kill someone. But remember, you are innocent until proven guilty.)

It would be more effective and ethical to find an alternate means.
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Old 8th April 2001, 22:05   #10
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All countries that have the capability to spy on other countries do so. It's a game that's always been played out and for the most part it is not considered criminal -- but yes, China has no obligation to return the equipment but if they want to maintain the peace, they should.
The US takes apart top secret planes that crash here, steal all the secrets, reassemble them, and return them, so the fact that the govt is pissed China is doing the same to a lesser extent is pretty juvenile, but once they're done playing with our stuff, they should still return it

heh?
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Old 8th April 2001, 22:07   #11
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read the indian reporter or times i tink thats the news paper they report alot and iam sorry i was not saying they were violent but things have happend i have friends there also in bangkok singapore and thiland they have a diffrent veiw and the vietmanies i think would strongly argue against your point but iam not up on much of tha stuff just a little
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Old 8th April 2001, 22:13   #12
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Quote:
Originally posted by bonj
It's a game that's always been played out and for the most part it is not considered criminal
Spying is a capital offense in most countries, and punishable by death in many, including China. I admit, it happens all the time, but that doesn't make it right. If murder happened every few minutes (which it does), would you say, "Screw it! What's the point! It's a natural thing and there is no way to stop it, so why do we punish it?"

Just think: how would you react if a Chinese spy plane crashed in your backyard? I'm sure you'd fight like the dickens to make your government not return it.
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Old 8th April 2001, 22:32   #13
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I think part the reason why our government is not apologizing is the fact that it was indeed the Chinese pilot who misjudged and clipped the nose of our plane, and the Chinese wants us to apologize for his death, despite the fact it was his mistake. The pilot's wife wrote directly to President Bush pleading for an apology, and Bush is likely not going to do so for that reason. That's what China really wants us to apologize for, and not so much the fact we were spying on them, or at least to my knowledge, that's what they wanted us to apologize for. If the apology was for spying and the collision being a deliberate one, yes, our government should make an apology.

Also keep in mind that the Chinese government practically owns the media in China and I think in a sense that has had a lot to do with why the country's people are rallied behind the government, or at least according to what my dad's been listening to on Chinese news.
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Old 8th April 2001, 22:44   #14
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very good comet i agree!
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Old 8th April 2001, 23:21   #15
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Re: um...

Quote:
Originally posted by DJ ROACH
they also say we were in there air space when it happened.
it was international air space

well we are stubborn but why aplogize if it was international air space, but if i was president myself i would:
1. Appologize for flying in international airspace & accidently killing a pilot when it was his fault
2. Take back our shit
3. cut off trade with china completely

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Old 8th April 2001, 23:37   #16
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yeah make them publicaly look like the asses we already know they are. we shoulda just stoped trade any way a billion dollar trade industry at a stop would mess with em
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Old 9th April 2001, 01:35   #17
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Not really. Remember, of course, that China is a communist country. One of Communism's main tenets is self-sufficiency.
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Old 9th April 2001, 02:00   #18
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Bah, the US and China are both hard headed, moronic, conflicting assholes with nothing else to do. The whole thing is screwed up mainly because no knows what to believe. Was it really the pilot's fault or the spy plane? Were they in international air space or chinese air space? Are Chinese bad people or are the US bad people? I give up in pride and sympathy for other countries. To be honest, I sometimes am ashamed to be apart of the human race. We do nothing but whine, complain, argue, wage war, pillage and fight for supremacy because of our own pride. Pride in what? Pride to take over others and be nothing but immature babies? I just hope this whole thing is settled peacefully. Although I find that almost doubtful because both countries are so full of themselves and have too much damn pride. IMO
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Old 9th April 2001, 02:06   #19
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the realy sick thing is this shows you how much both countries only care about there politics and not the people. like they say they do we have people being used as pawns thats whats rediculous. our men and woman are frekin pawns thats all and the rest we just pay our politians to act like responsible people who work for us but instead its a lie we work for them because we pay them to dick us around!
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Old 9th April 2001, 02:16   #20
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ever hear "war pigs" by black sabbath, it's about how the politicians start the war but the men/women fight and die and the politicians don't get harmed at all.

"Generals gathered in their masses
just like witches at black masses
evil minds that plot destruction
sorcerers of death's construction
in the fields the bodies burning as the war machine keeps turning
death and hatred to mankind
poisoning their brainwashed minds... Oh lord yeah!

Politicians hide themselves away
they only started the war
Why should they go out to fight?
They leave that role to the poor

Time will tell on their power minds
Making war just for fun
Treating people just like pawns in chess
Wait 'till their judgement day comes, yeah!

Now in darkness, world stops turning
as the war machine keeps burning
No more war pigs of the power
Hand of god has sturck the hour
Day of judgement, god is calling on their knees, the war pigs crawling
Begging mercy for their sins
Satan, laughing, spreads his wings
ALL RIGHT NOW!"
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Old 9th April 2001, 02:23   #21
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its a very good song! you ozzy freak
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Old 9th April 2001, 02:30   #22
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its a very good song! you ozzy freak
i just happen to be a black sabbath fan, and they a supposed to be releaseing an all new cd sometime around this christmas
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Old 9th April 2001, 02:32   #23
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(I'm Chinese, so the usual grain-o'-salt is required...)

In any such incidents involving reconnaissance you have to assume that both governments are lying their ass off to manoeuvre public sentiment. Hey, it's only natural that they do. So, there's no way we'll ever know who's right and who's wrong in this incident.

The only thing I hate about this is how both the Chinese and US govts just keep on ranting, rapping, making a fuss over protocols, being anal-retentive. If the Chinese believe the US crew are spying, why bitch for an apology? Drag them to court! And the US's ability to keep a straight face saying that flying a spy plane over somebody else's backyard is routine operation - it's un-f---ing-believable.
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Old 9th April 2001, 03:25   #24
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Quote:
Originally posted by griffinn

And the US's ability to keep a straight face saying that flying a spy plane over somebody else's backyard is routine operation - it's un-f---ing-believable.
I'm Chinese too, and I'll add a little MSG to this...

I find it believable that it is a routine operation. They've been doing it for the last, oh, 20 years? Chinese fighters would come out in pairs and surround the plane, usually within a few 100-feet wingtip-to-wingtip. America's done that with Russia even after that whole U2 incident in the '60s. And they've been doing it with China the last 20 years. It just so happened that this incident involved a mid-air collision and a Chinese pilot was killed in the process. It's been said that this pilot has been spotted by other American planes on these type of reconnaisance missions so he must have had experience. For him to misjudge was a miscalculation on his part. And now, China is asking America for an apology because of his death.

Well, regardless of the outcome, I would only hope they will find a compromise among all of this. It's become ridiculous and has gotten much out of hand. I also agree with Psycho Puppet, it's turned to an issue of pride. And just like in any political issue, the people are the pawns. Sad but true.
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Old 9th April 2001, 03:48   #25
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Quote:
Originally posted by Radioactive Man:
Spying is a capital offense in most countries, and punishable by death in many, including China.
"Capital offense" and "punishable by death" mean the exact same thing... lol.
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Old 9th April 2001, 04:05   #26
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This thread is growing too fast and contains too many words to read with the huge ass headache i currently have.. So in response to RM's last reply to me: if a chinese pilot crashed into my backyard and it was the pilot's error, yes I would fight for the govt to keep the plane and fight for an apology from the chinese govt. However, if an American jet cut off the plane, causing it to crash in my backyard, i would seek an apology from the US, and I would want the plane returned to the chinese without us dissecting it first (although I know that'd never happen).

Also, I don't know if this was mentioned yet, but a letter from president Bush to the family of the pilot that was killed is on it's way now (finally).

heh?
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Old 9th April 2001, 07:12   #27
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Espionage is very unique; in that all countries engage in it but all countries "disavow any knowlege" of doing it and all say its illegal to do in their soverign borders.

The way i see it, both countries should apologize and get on with life...

I do not believe the US is as "commie-phobe" as it was during the first half of the century, but I still thik Communism should be contained since it is evil. SO a little commie-phobia is healthy. I DO think equating Bush to hitler is a very poor comparison...

And on a related note, I do not see China apologizing for the brash theft of nuclear secrets...

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Old 9th April 2001, 13:49   #28
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Quote:
Originally posted by Radioactive Man
Personally, I'd like to see the crew returned at some point, but you must realize that they are indeed criminals, so they should be punished for a finite period of time.
Criminals, my ass!
What did they do illegal? China has surveillance just as the U.S. does, though they rely on their nuclear arsenal while we rely on intel and naval/air strength.
There is absolutely nothing illegal about intelligence gathering in international airspace or outer space. It is a documented fact that in the weeks leading up to the incident, the Chinese pilots had been getting more aggressive in their escorts. The EP-3 was clearly in international airspace and a plane of that type is hardly maneuverable enough to make a surprise turn against a Chinese fighter like that. Pull your head out of your ass.

[Edited by ElChevelle on 04-09-2001 at 12:54 PM]
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Old 9th April 2001, 14:25   #29
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Not my business!!!!! I only care about when the F**K is WA3 going to be released???????????
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Old 9th April 2001, 15:03   #30
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Well, if it's not your business, don't reply. This is General Discussion. Bitch about WA3 in the WA3 forum along with all the other impatient whiners.

And Chev: I don't think the plane turned. I believe it followed a straight path and the Chinese jet took the nose off of it.

Regardless, it was in international airspace, and it was merely an accident that turned into something that's been blown way out of proportion.
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Old 9th April 2001, 16:41   #31
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see how in the hell could it be our fault? the china jet fighter is 1/4 the size of the big 4 engine turbo prop ep3 spy plane. the jet fighter is way more agile. theres know way the ep-3 could be at fault we couldnt purpously hit them! thats like chasing a ferrai with a semi truck it just aint gonna happen,no way! i think that the plane was flying dangerosly to close and the pilot was at fault or the plane malfunctioned and we could not get out of the way. by the way it was kept from us but, in india they reported about a month ago. that in the same day two china fighters feel out of the sky (difrent times)on the same day one killing 16 villagers. they reported the planes were so old and misstreated that it was going to happen sooner or later!
makes you wonder what happened up there!?!?!?
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Old 9th April 2001, 17:00   #32
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If the crew of the EP-3 are criminals, then so am I along with thousands of others. Back in the early 80's, my ship was a part of a doubled battle group(the carriers Enterprise and Midway and a handful of other surface ships including destroyers, frigates and support craft) on exercise off the coast of Siberia. Tensions were high during that little arm flexing. If anyone had made any kind of mistake(accidental launch, collision at sea, which is more common than you know)the world could have been changed forever since we were escorted by a battle group of Russia's finest at the time. We were also alot closer to foreign soil than that unarmed plane was.

I must go face the firing squad now for divulging classified info
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Old 9th April 2001, 17:10   #33
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em chevell you da man! see you worked for the goverment and support it!!
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Old 9th April 2001, 19:21   #34
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the media says the chinese plane crashed into the EP3. how would you know that to be a fact? coz u saw and heard it on the news rite? guess what? the major news corporation are AMERICAN. so how would u know who is rite or wrong? the fact is, nobody's going to admit it's their fault. sure the US boasts abt their free press, but come on, u know as well as I do that the US media is only going to sensationalize this, and no way are they going to turn on their own government.

spying is a capital offence is all countries. sure, they were doing it in international waters. but unfortunately, the oft-glossed over part here is the EP3 landed within China without PERMISSION. can u say an intrusion? and since even the US keeps saying "it's a spy plane", what do u think the Chinese government is going to do?

let's see now...spy plane enters our airspace...hmm...spying...hmm...capital offence...better see what shitz they have on us...and keep those ppl in prison for a few days until we get an apology.

that's what I would do if I ran the country. just put urself in their shoes and think. if it happened the other way, what do u think the US is going to do? EXACTLY the same thing.

someone lost their life this time...a Chinese pilot. this is all just posturing by both countries so that they don't look bad in the international arena. The Chinese is not going to let the death of one of their own go that easily, and the US government will never get off its high horse and apologize. that's a fact.

I think it's stupid for the US to not apologize, since it gets back their people (like someone mentioned, it can be unsincere :-)), and I think it's ridiculous for the Chinese to demand an apology, since this is part of the whole military business.

the thing is, this will all blow over is a few weeks. there's too much at stake economically to do otherwise. the US cannot afford to lose the cheap labor that China provides for their factories in China, not to mention the scholars that come over to the US. The Chinese cannot afford to give up the trade that the US provides.
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Old 9th April 2001, 19:33   #35
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Xerxes:

I don't think communism is necessarily EVIl. :-)

think abt it, it means equal opportunities/wealth for everyone. noone is poor, there isn't a disenfranchised part of society, etc. All of which happen in a democracy, or rather, a capitialist society :-).

of course, that's if life was perfect, and it isn't. There's corruption, and it's actually corruption that caused the failure of communism. The only reason why it is portrayed as evil so vehemently in the US is...well...coz the US wants it to be...:-)...and we can go all into whole US foreign policy from there...:-)...

I think Communism is not evil, just VERY VERY flawed, because it believes in the goodness of the human heart...:-), and not in greed. btw, I love money...so democracy and capitalism...whatever...is good for me...:-)...my 2 cents..
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Old 9th April 2001, 19:34   #36
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Quote:
Originally posted by DJ ROACH
see how in the hell could it be our fault? the china jet fighter is 1/4 the size of the big 4 engine turbo prop ep3 spy plane. the jet fighter is way more agile. theres know way the ep-3 could be at fault we couldnt purpously hit them! thats like chasing a ferrai with a semi truck it just aint gonna happen,no way! i think that the plane was flying dangerosly to close and the pilot was at fault or the plane malfunctioned and we could not get out of the way. by the way it was kept from us but, in india they reported about a month ago. that in the same day two china fighters feel out of the sky (difrent times)on the same day one killing 16 villagers. they reported the planes were so old and misstreated that it was going to happen sooner or later!
makes you wonder what happened up there!?!?!?
come on dude its there fault we had to land there thats like you hiting my car in your street then when i had to park it in your driveway to look at it you keep the car and part it!!! :O
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Old 9th April 2001, 19:49   #37
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Quote:
Originally posted by NeoRenegade
Quote:
Originally posted by Radioactive Man:
Spying is a capital offense in most countries, and punishable by death in many, including China.
"Capital offense" and "punishable by death" mean the exact same thing... lol.
A capital offense is federal, as opposed to a provincial/state crime.

And yes, Chev, in China or where ever, you would be a criminal. Espionage is considered treason. Hence, the disavowing of knowledge bit on the part of your govenrment

And whether or not it's the pilot's fault is irrelevant. If the plane was shot down by a missile, would it be China's fault because the missile misjudged and hit the plane "by accident"? However, I do agree that China shouldn't be asking for an apology for the pilots death. But they damn better get an apology for spying.
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Old 9th April 2001, 19:49   #38
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Quote:
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and no way are they going to turn on their own government.
many U.S. press does report against it's government - i am guessing your not from here.
i read all the time about mistakes they make or about the NSA's Echelon project and how they wont release info on its monitoring capabilitys and how they use it or alot of ther bullshit.
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Old 9th April 2001, 20:45   #39
ElChevelle
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Originally posted by vollov
let's see now...spy plane enters our airspace...hmm...spying...hmm...capital offence...better see what shitz they have on us...and keep those ppl in prison for a few days until we get an apology.
[*]For one thing, it's not really a spyplane. A U-2 or SR-71 is technically a spyplane. An EP-3A is technically an "air-strike tactical coordinating platform".[*]Secondly, who's airspace were we in????[*]Thirdly, I want an apology from the Chinese AND all other owners of surveillance satellites who spy on my property every day of my life!
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Old 9th April 2001, 20:48   #40
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Originally posted by vollov
and no way are they going to turn on their own government.
many U.S. press does report against it's government - i am guessing your not from here.
i read all the time about mistakes they make or about the NSA's Echelon project and how they wont release info on its monitoring capabilitys and how they use it or alot of ther bullshit.
True that, without the media, we would never be enlightened as to the scandals and corruptness of our sordid government.
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