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Old 25th August 2011, 13:37   #1
Liontamer
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Is "wwwaudiofile" field used by ANY player/program/service?

(Not a bug, but no one seems to care in Tech Support, and I know MrSinatra and others have some expertise. Sorry for the intentional post in the wrong forum area.)

Can anyone clarify if the WWWAUDIOFILE field (URL of the actual MP3 file) of the ID3v2 tags is read by any major players, programs or services.

I'm thinking about tagging the collection of OC ReMix with the URL each ReMix is located at, e.g. http://ocremix.org/remix/OCR02269/).

But (if I remember correctly), this already obscure field has fallen out of use for security reasons (e.g. someone could embed a malware URL into that field and exploit a program that automatically directed to those URLs).

Is there any point at all to using this field? Is it supported? Even if it is no longer supported, was there any point when this field was read/displayed/used in Winamp or any notable interface (just curiosity's sake)? It seems like no, as far as a simple Google search may indicate: http://www.google.com/search?q=%22wwwaudiofile%22+mp3

Thanks for anyone who has any insight!
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Old 25th August 2011, 18:27   #2
MrSinatra
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i don't know anything about it, but i would be surprised if winamp ever supported it. mp3tag might though. however, as we learned with TCMP, winamp deletes frames it doesn't understand/support.

PENN STATE Radio or http://www.LION-Radio.org/
--
BUG #1 = Winamp skips short tracks
Wish #1 = Multiple Column Sorting
Wish #2 = Add TCMP/Compilation editing
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Old 26th August 2011, 09:30   #3
DJ Egg
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Winamp recognizes and doesn't delete the WWWAUDIOFILE frame.

Here's the list of supported id3v2 URL frames:

WWWAUDIOFILE, WOAF
WWWARTIST, WOAR
WWWAUDIOSOURCE, WOAS
WWWCOMMERCIALINFO, WCOM
WWWCOPYRIGHT, WCOP
WWWPUBLISHER, WPUB
WWWPAYMENT, WPAY
WWWRADIOPAGE, WORS
WWWUSER, WXXX

We write the URL field (in the ID3v2 tab of Alt+3) to the WXXX frame.
I don't think we write to or use any of the others (eg. we use TPUB & TCOP for Publisher & Copyright, not WPUB or WCOP),
but any existing frames aren't deleted when updating the tags with Winamp.
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Old 26th August 2011, 21:10   #4
MrSinatra
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Egg,

thx for the correction and clarification.

i mentioned this in the PM but perhaps here is a good place to continue this idea... can you setup a place in the official wiki for me and Liontamer and DrO and yourself to try to map out a chart showing all the differing tag fields and frames winamp supports for various filetypes?

the idea would be to show that if using eg. "mp3 / id3v2.3" what fields and frames are read, and what ones are written to by default. that kind of thing.

it could also explain what happens if you have both TCMP and TXXX COMPILATION in your tags.

frankly i'm kinda confused by your last post... are they all "supported URL 2.4 frames" or not? i take it that on the id3v2 tab, the "URL" field writes ONLY to WXXX, is that correct? but are you then saying ANY of the above frames could populate that field? and if hey did, they'd be the ones written to?

PENN STATE Radio or http://www.LION-Radio.org/
--
BUG #1 = Winamp skips short tracks
Wish #1 = Multiple Column Sorting
Wish #2 = Add TCMP/Compilation editing
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Old 26th August 2011, 23:41   #5
DJ Egg
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We only read from/write to WXXX (which we use for the URL field in the ID3v2 tab),
We don't use any of the other url frames, but we won't delete them if they exist.

We don't read from or write to the Compilation frame, but from 5.63 onwards we won't delete TCMP if it exists
(we already didn't delete any TXXX frames, whether we used them or not).

As for the wiki... yeah, maybe I'll get round to doing something like that... some day....
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Old 27th August 2011, 09:23   #6
MrSinatra
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DJ Egg View Post
We only read from/write to WXXX (which we use for the URL field in the ID3v2 tab),
We don't use any of the other url frames, but we won't delete them if they exist.
i'm confused. you keep saying "url frames" like you did here:

Quote:
Originally Posted by DJ Egg View Post
Here's the list of supported id3v2 URL frames:

WWWAUDIOFILE, WOAF
WWWARTIST, WOAR
WWWAUDIOSOURCE, WOAS
WWWCOMMERCIALINFO, WCOM
WWWCOPYRIGHT, WCOP
WWWPUBLISHER, WPUB
WWWPAYMENT, WPAY
WWWRADIOPAGE, WORS
WWWUSER, WXXX
but isn't WXXX the only "url frame"? or are all these frames called url frames for some reason?

Quote:
Originally Posted by DJ Egg View Post
We don't read from or write to the Compilation frame, but from 5.63 onwards we won't delete TCMP if it exists
(we already didn't delete any TXXX frames, whether we used them or not).
thats good to know. but what about other non-TXXX frames that may exist?

like for instance, soundcheck values? or WMP volume leveling values?

http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/...howtopic=56338

Quote:
Originally Posted by DJ Egg View Post
As for the wiki... yeah, maybe I'll get round to doing something like that... some day....
well, i'm happy to help, and we don't have to do it from scratch:

http://help.mp3tag.de/main_tags.html

PENN STATE Radio or http://www.LION-Radio.org/
--
BUG #1 = Winamp skips short tracks
Wish #1 = Multiple Column Sorting
Wish #2 = Add TCMP/Compilation editing
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Old 27th August 2011, 12:52   #7
DJ Egg
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MrSinatra View Post
i'm confused. you keep saying "url frames" like you did here:
but isn't WXXX the only "url frame"? or are all these frames called url frames for some reason?
All the id3v2 frames beginning with WWW are url frames.
It even shows the details via that link you provided: http://help.mp3tag.de/main_tags.html

eg. WWWARTIST = WOAR = WM/AuthorURL = Official artist website url

Those are used by WMP (hence the "WM/" part). We don't use them at all, but we don't delete them if they exist.

Quote:
thats good to know. but what about other non-TXXX frames that may exist?

like for instance, soundcheck values? or WMP volume leveling values?

http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/...howtopic=56338
We don't delete any existing COMM frames.
So hopefully we don't delete any existing iTunNORM frame (if it is a COMM frame, as specified in that HA thread).
If we are deleting the iTunNORM frame, then let me know, and I'll add it to our id3v2 specs to make sure it's not deleted.
The same goes for any others. Let me know, and I'll add them.

Quote:
well, i'm happy to help, and we don't have to do it from scratch:

http://help.mp3tag.de/main_tags.html
As from Winamp 5.63 onwards, we won't be deleting any of the id3v2 frames referenced in that table :-)
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Old 27th August 2011, 15:17   #8
Bilbo9955
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Maybe I am missing something, but why delete ANY unknown frames at all? Frames are always being added, so you are creating constant new problems by not simply passing the unknown frames!
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Old 27th August 2011, 16:20   #9
DJ Egg
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@Bilbo9955

Alas, that's the way the id3 parser was written in Winamp 2.x

Benski explains it in this post
http://forums.winamp.com/showthread....24#post2726224

I've just added all the previously ignored & discarded frames from that mp3tag list to Winamp's id3 parser, so even if it doesn't actually use any of them, it'll no longer delete them like before.

Simplest workaround for now, until Benski implements a new id3lib/parser, which might never happen
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Old 29th August 2011, 05:23   #10
MrSinatra
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Egg,

thx for the explanation and staying on top of this. you can find more frames here:

http://id3.org/id3v2.4.0-frames

and here (Unofficial Frames Seen in the Wild):

http://id3.org/Developer_Information

i just want to reiterate that i would really like to see winamp add just the ability to display and edit TCMP frames. it doesn't need to do anything with the info, just allow the user to display it, and edit it. thx again.

EDIT: and i meant to add that its an essential need for anyone using an apple idevice that winamp can manage and maintain. (like older ipods, etc)

PENN STATE Radio or http://www.LION-Radio.org/
--
BUG #1 = Winamp skips short tracks
Wish #1 = Multiple Column Sorting
Wish #2 = Add TCMP/Compilation editing
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Old 29th August 2011, 20:09   #11
DJ Egg
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One thing at a time. At least we'll no longer be deleting the TCMP frame in 5.63

How does iTunes do it?
As far as I know, the value for TCMP can only be 1 or 0.
If 0, then does iTunes delete the TCMP frame or does it set the value to 0?
What method does it use in the UI/Tag Editor? Is it just a checkmark for "Is compilation?"
When checked, as well as setting TCMP to 1, does it then also auto set "Album Artist" to "Various Artists"?

By the way, I'm not saying that this means anything further will be implemented, but if it ever is, then we'll need to know this information (seeing as I for one have never used iTunes before and never will, not even if Apple offered to pay me).

FYI, these are the frames I've added to Winamp's id3v2 parser for 5.63
We were treating these as unrecognized before and just deleting them on updates.
From 5.63, we'll still not use any of them, but we'll also no longer delete them....

PRIVATE - PRIV
COMPILATION - TCMP
ALBUMSORT - TSOA
ALBUMARTISTSORT - TSO2
PERFORMERSORT - TSOP
COMPOSERSORT - TSOC
TITLESORT - TSOT
REPLAYGAIN - RGAD (we currently use TXXX frames for RG)
INVOLVEDPEOPLE2 - TIPL
CREDITS - TMCL
ENCODINGTIME - TDEN
FILEOWNER - TOWN
LENGTH - TLEN
ORIGYEAR - TORY
ORIGRELEASETIME - TDOR
RELEASETIME - TDRL
SETSUBTITLE - TSST
PLAYLISTDELAY - TDLY
TAGGINGTIME - TDGT
VOLUMEADJ - RVAD
SYNCEDLYRICS - SYLT
SYNCEDTEMPOCODE - SYTC
TERMSOFUSE - USER
SIGNATURE - SIGN
PRODUCEDNOTICE - TPRO
PODCAST - PCST
PODCASTCATEGORY - TCAT
PODCASTDESC - TDES
PODCASTID - TGID
PODACSTURL - WFED
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Old 29th August 2011, 20:40   #12
MrSinatra
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DJ Egg View Post
One thing at a time. At least we'll no longer be deleting the TCMP frame in 5.63
u know me, i'm pushy!

Quote:
Originally Posted by DJ Egg View Post
How does iTunes do it?
As far as I know, the value for TCMP can only be 1 or 0.
correct. you can not have the frame at all of course, or you can have it, and the value will either be empty (null), a 0, or a 1.

usually, itunes only uses the 1, but a 0 or nothing at all are both also valid values.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DJ Egg View Post
If 0, then does iTunes delete the TCMP frame or does it set the value to 0?
my understanding is it sets the value to 0. 0 and null are NOT the same thing. (one could reasonably argue however, that a null value and not having the frame at all are basically the same thing)

but regardless of what itunes does, mp3tag and others allow for 1,0,or null, and other apps make use of that data in that way.

winamp doesn't do this, but a lot of apps have VA auto detection, where they compare artist info on an album, to try to determine comp status, (they look for any mismatch). so the 1 and 0 empower the user explicit over-ride control of such logics, and force the app/device to categorize it as def a comp, 1, or def not a comp, 0.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DJ Egg View Post
What method does it use in the UI/Tag Editor? Is it just a checkmark for "Is compilation?"
in itunes you mean? i'll have to check that out on the wifes mac. WMP and windows has something similar btw.

but whether the format uses "TCMP" or "TXXX COMPILATION" or "is compilation" or "WM/COMPILATION" or plain old "COMPILATION" ...the values, as far as i can tell, are always 1,0, or null.

are you trying to figure out how to implement the UI in the winamp ML? you could just do two columns, one for 1, one for 0, if you wanted to control what data was entered in the value. but both columns could NOT be checked, and both must be allowed to be voided simultaneously.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DJ Egg View Post
When checked, as well as setting TCMP to 1, does it then also auto set "Album Artist" to "Various Artists"?
now you're asking loaded questions!

basically, itunes invented TCMP out of spec and out of thin air. it did this b/c it did NOT support "album artist" or "TPE2" tags for a long time, well after it had TCMP. the TCMP tag was a flag for itunes to know to group stuff together, it performed the AA function.

itunes does now support TPE2 as = AA, but it does not fill in that field automatically. it just recognizes it now IF it is filled in, (by other apps). i'm pretty sure that even today, itunes won't fill in AA values via its online artist DB, even when auto-tagging. LAME? YOU BET!

i am pretty sure that if the TCMP flag is set to 1, this only means that the local itunes DB knows to use an "AA-like" value of Various Artists. it doesn't actually update the tag, it just updates the field in itunes DB. it might call it "Compilations" instead of VA, i'm not sure. like you, i hate itunes, so my exp is limited.

one neat thing tho, and this would be true in winamp, is that if you have both AA tags, and comp tags, you can easily group all comps together, regardless of AA tag values. in winamp, you would just sort in the ML by the comps column.

(i use many different AA values for comps, like a lot of other people do, to get things to sort where i want them. so a separate comp flag allows me to sort all my comps out to one place, gather them all together. pretty neat, and done without winamp supporting the tag beyond display and editing)

Quote:
Originally Posted by DJ Egg View Post
By the way, I'm not saying that this means anything further will be implemented, but if it ever is, then we'll need to know this information (seeing as I for one have never used iTunes before and never will, not even if Apple offered to pay me).
my itunes knowledge is somewhat stunted b/c i feel EXACTLY as you do. but PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE let me know if i can get anymore info for you or clarify anything, and again keep in mind that winamp really needs to do this to properly support older idevices, or anything else that makes use of comp flags.

thx egg!

PENN STATE Radio or http://www.LION-Radio.org/
--
BUG #1 = Winamp skips short tracks
Wish #1 = Multiple Column Sorting
Wish #2 = Add TCMP/Compilation editing
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Old 31st August 2011, 07:37   #13
MrSinatra
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egg,

some more info from PMs and some other forums folks:

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrSinatra
Quote:
I'm not sure about multiple TPE1 or TPE2 frames. Can there be more than one?
There can be multiple artists inside the frame, but surely there can only be one frame, unless some buggy editor messes up....
here's what i know... a single TPE1 or TPE2, etc, frame CAN have multiple values in it, as you know. this is done using a "separator character." e.g. WMP uses ; i think. thats pretty straight forward.

however, what is ALSO true, is that you can have multiple values using "multiple frames." but exactly HOW that is done, i am not sure. so do you get two TPE1 frames, or is it a hack of the TPE1 frame that allows it to seem like two TPE1 frames? i don't know unfortunately, i wish i could better answer that for you.

the way you enter data to get "multiple frames" is not by using a separator character, but it depends on tag type. in mp3tag, you do like // or something for example. the squeezebox server supports this, and in its tag dump will show multiple frames. (its not recognizing a separator character, but rather the insertion of multiple frames somehow)

i however do NOT do this myself, so i have no example files and really can't speak to it. i just know the ability is out there and a lot of "serious" (anal) folks make use of it.
and then this:

Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrSinatra
so the first Q is, how does an app decide which frames it will support such characters?
I would guess necessity, customer demand, and a little common sense. A track can have two or more artists / or album artists, but not two track numbers, titles or album names.

Quote:
the second Q is, does a standard for this exist anywhere, or is it just an ad-hoc invention?
Mostly ad-hoc. But standards do emerge from common usage, such as that for using TCMP, based on how iTunes uses it.

Quote:
would a files tag actually have MORE than one frame called TPE1? so like this:

TPE1=Paul Simon
TPE1=Art Garfunkel

is it actually stored in the file that way? meaning, is TPE1 there twice, or is there only one TPE1 frame thats been hacked somehow?
how many multiple frames can there be?
No. There can be only one frame with a given name. Id3v2.4 frames use a null character separator. I believe that technically, it was only introduced in id3v2.4, but Mp3tag also does the same thing with id3v2.3 tags.

From http://www.id3.org/id3v2.4.0-frames

code:

4.2. Text information frames

The text information frames are often the most important frames,
containing information like artist, album and more. There may only be
one text information frame of its kind in an tag. All text
information frames supports multiple strings, stored as a null
separated list, where null is reperesented by the termination code
for the charater encoding. All text frame identifiers begin with "T".
Only text frame identifiers begin with "T", with the exception of the
"TXXX" frame. All the text information frames have the following
format:

<Header for 'Text information frame', ID: "T000" - "TZZZ",
excluding "TXXX" described in 4.2.6.>
Text encoding $xx
Information <text string(s) according to encoding>



Quote:
and how do you do it in mp3tag? do you do two // characters to inject multiple frames, (where // acts as a separator?) how do you know if a file has multiple frames? can u tell in grid view? can any frame be made into multiple frames?
In Mp3tag it's \\. This is just a convention that Mp3tag uses. It appears in both the Tag Panel and in the grid view. In the Extended Tags dialog it always appears as separate fields when there are separate values (id3) or fields (Vorbis comments, APE tags).

It is possible to have \\ as a character sequence within a field, so it's far from a perfect user interface. If you have the character sequence \\ in a field then you save the file, Mp3tag will split the field (which means putting in the null byte separator). I played with it just now and it only does this when you save individual files, not when you save multiple files, so it's a little quirky.
http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=89940

PENN STATE Radio or http://www.LION-Radio.org/
--
BUG #1 = Winamp skips short tracks
Wish #1 = Multiple Column Sorting
Wish #2 = Add TCMP/Compilation editing
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Old 4th September 2011, 07:16   #14
Liontamer
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Just clarifying y'all, I'm not worried at all about Winamp destroying the frames of the "WWWaudiofile" field (WOAF frame). I've definitely seen that it doesn't in my years of using it.

Not to detract from the direction the thread took (I like it), but I was looking for more information was whether any programs or devices actively read from/displayed that WOAF frame metadata to the average user.

If you played an MP3 with the WWWaudiofile field filled in, would any program you know of automatically open (or ask to open) that URL in a browser or offer up some sort of prompt that indicated to the user that the field was populated?
  • Hypothetical example, you a) played a file with the WWWaudiofile field populated and then b) Winamp's built-in browser would show a prompt asking whether you wanted to open up that specific page.

As far as I'm aware, no mainstream program or device has ever displayed or interacted with the WOAF frame metadata. It just seems to be an obscure field that only tagging geeks like me are aware of, but I could be wrong. It's implied here (http://help.mp3tag.de/main_tags.html) that Windows Media Player displays this in some fashion, but when playing or editing an MP3 with that data filled in, I don't see WOAF come up anywhere.

So (the reason I'm asking all this) would it somehow be to an average user's benefit for me to populate the WWWaudiofile field of the 2,000+ MP3s of OC ReMix when we re-release our community's collection later this year? Or should I not bother and just leave this field blank? It takes 2 seconds to script, but (more importantly) there needs to be an actual point for me to bother doing it. :-)
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Old 4th September 2011, 07:34   #15
MrSinatra
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i don't know of any, and apparently winamp only reads and writes WXXX of those types for the URL field.

PENN STATE Radio or http://www.LION-Radio.org/
--
BUG #1 = Winamp skips short tracks
Wish #1 = Multiple Column Sorting
Wish #2 = Add TCMP/Compilation editing
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Old 23rd September 2011, 15:40   #16
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Yeah, it seems like WOAF has 0 practical use, so it looks like I'll go ahead and forget about populating it. :-)
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