Old 17th May 2004, 04:39   #161
ElChevelle
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Old 17th May 2004, 04:42   #162
aFfLiCtEd
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Thats better!
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Old 17th May 2004, 05:02   #163
papadoc
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Quote:
Originally posted by aFfLiCtEd
@ papadoc
I'm sorry but I'm having difficulty with your statement "But I refuse to believe anything they say" when they in fact carried out their word and the evidence is splattered all over the internet.
I said: "I refuse to believe anything they say, except that they want to kill us all"
Yes they carried out their word on killing an American,
but I said I believe them when they say that.
And I don't need to see anything splatterd over the internet
to know they want us dead, by whatever means.

Quote:
Indeed the mistreatment of Iraqi prisoners was just an excuse to kill another American who just so happened to be a Jew, although I'm hesitant to believe that he "put" himself in that position, rather he just happened to "be" in that position.
I suppose I should have written "he happened to be in that position"
instead of "he put himself in the postion".

Last edited by papadoc; 17th May 2004 at 05:26.
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Old 17th May 2004, 07:25   #164
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there seems to be a few differing opinions on this, but mine is that if he had been given access to the country when saddam was in power (which is unlikely, and relies on him having any reason to go anyway, which is even less likely), then this almost certainly would not have happened - the iraqi people are not monsters (most of them, in any case). things like this are allowed to happen when there is a breakdown in law enforcement, which in the circumstances is to be expected. i don't think anyone is willing to claim that iraq was "lawless" previous to the war (quite the opposite) - and the government was unlikely to want to allow an international situation when they were already in so much strife with the western world.

surely it was obvious things like this would happen if we went to war, previous to it, though?

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Old 17th May 2004, 08:43   #165
gaekwad2
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Quote:
Originally posted by ElChevelle
Mass responsibility.
Eh?

I thought each person that voted for Bush made an individual decision to do so.

Should they not be responsible for the result of their action?

"Mass responsibility" is an invention of people who don't want to take the resposibility they do have for the actions of their government.

It's very obvious where I live, the country that killed 6 million Jews.

And we've also got campaigns "defending our national pride and the honor of our army". *puke*
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Old 18th May 2004, 16:59   #166
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Four arrested over beheading of US businessman in Iraq.


BAGHDAD (AFP) - Four people have been arrested over the beheading of US businessman Nicholas Berg, whose killing was shown earlier this month in a video on an Al-Qaeda linked website, a senior Iraqi source said.

Asked if more than one person had been arrested in connection with the killing, the source told AFP: "Yes, four people."

"We have made good progress," the source added, referring to the investigation, but declined to give any details on the identity of the four people held in detention.

But it was understood that none of the four included Abu Mussab al-Zarqawi, who US authorities believe carried out the killing of the 26-year-old who was in Iraq.



http://news.yahoo.com/news
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Old 18th May 2004, 17:08   #167
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hmm. interesting because it means either they didn't find the perpetrator, or their guess of who it was was wrong.

i'd be interested to find out which is true...

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Old 18th May 2004, 20:30   #168
spiderbaby1958
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Quote:
Originally posted by gaekwad2
Eh?

I thought each person that voted for Bush made an individual decision to do so.

Should they not be responsible for the result of their action?

Only if Bush had run on a pro-torture platform.
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Old 18th May 2004, 22:48   #169
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Hmmm, ok so the voters acted in good faith.

The Bush administration however did not, since experts from all over the world and across the political spectrum predicted what would happen if they invaded Iraq.
This behaviour amounts at least to gross negligence (or whatever is the equivalent term in US legalese).

(So ElChevelle's logic is flawed! )
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Old 18th May 2004, 22:59   #170
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Quote:
Originally posted by spiderbaby1958
Only if Bush had run on a pro-torture platform.
well, he is a republican...

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Old 19th May 2004, 00:03   #171
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Quote:
Originally posted by gaekwad2
(So ElChevelle's logic is flawed! )
WTF are you babbling about?
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Old 19th May 2004, 03:40   #172
spiderbaby1958
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Quote:
Originally posted by gaekwad2
The Bush administration however did not, since experts from all over the world and across the political spectrum predicted what would happen if they invaded Iraq.
This behaviour amounts at least to gross negligence (or whatever is the equivalent term in US legalese).
Gross negligence works for me.

Today I learned that before the invasion, the Administration had a clear shot at the guy who cut Nick Berg's head off, but they didn't go after him because they thought it might undercut the case for war in Iraq. Plans were drawn up to attack his base 3 times. This was AFTER 9/11! Take a look:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4431601/

Every day I think "They couldn't possibly fuck it up any more. It couldn't get worse... and just about every day now, a new revelation or disaster occurs. The arrogance and incompetence is just staggering.

Bush is in big trouble. The crooked electronic voting machines are only going to help him if the election is close, and I don't think it's going to be close unless the momentum changes. And the momentum isn't going to change unless Bush suddenly starts acting thoughtfully and responsibly, which isn't going to happen. He's no flip-flopper, like that nasty John Kerry. Not our George. He's just a fuckup.
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Old 19th May 2004, 04:20   #173
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"He's no flip-flopper, like that nasty John Kerry. Not our George. He's just a fuckup."

that is quite possibly the mgreatest political statement I have heard in a while....
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Old 19th May 2004, 07:39   #174
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Quote:
Originally posted by ElChevelle
WTF are you babbling about?
This:
Quote:
Originally posted by ElChevelle
Why isn't it the same thing?
Your "logic" says that the beheading of Michael Berg was George Bush's fault. So the guy with the knife is innocent and George Bush is guilty?
That would make the people who voted Bush into office accomplices......using that logic.
The people who voted Bush into office aren't accomplices because they acted in good faith.

OK it wasn't your logic but your illustration that was faulty, better?
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Old 21st May 2004, 04:11   #175
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I found this on another forum. I havn't checked it's sources and claims in refrence to the video, if someone wants to be my guest, but here:
----------------------------------------------
Here's an interesting look @ the video....

Berg video exposed as a fraud

Terrorist mastermind Zarqawi has announced his name but hidden his face. The CIA has said it is indeed Zarqawi, but he appears to be reading his own speech from a paper.

The person holding the knife -- allegedly Zarqawi -- has a Black hood at the video's beginning, but there is an edit (the camera time signatures change) and the knifeholder is then wearing a WHITE hood (and no bulletproof vest).

You'll also find the following oddities in the heavily edited video, which was heavily edited, presumably in a lab or on a pc:

WM-----|-----Video Clock-----|-----Screen Shot
0:00 ---|--- nothing ---|-------Arabic letters
0:05 ---|--- 13:26:24 ---|--- Nick Berg speaking
0:09 ---|---- 2:18:33 ---|--- Nick Berg sitting
0:20 ---|---- 2:40:33 ---|--- Speech in Arabic
4:36 ---|---- 2:44:56 ---|--- Speaker pushes Berg over
4:38 ---|--- 13:45:48 ---|--- Decapitation begins
4:43 ---|--- 13:45:52 ---|--- Picture lost
4:44 ---|--- 13:45:59 ---|--- Picture returns, decapitation continues

So, if we are to assume the timestamps of the two (?) cameras are accurate, this means Berg was beheaded at 13:47:49 (1:47) but at 2:44, nearly an hour later, he is sitting with his head intact.

Zarqawi has also been reported to have an artificial leg; this is definitely not apparent in the video. Nor is his Jordanian accent, according to experts. Also note the gold ring on the "sinister" (toilet-using) hand -- a definite no-no for muslims.

Then there's US consulate Beth A. Payne's emails to Berg's family saying their son was in "US military custody" for 13 days:
http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/i...ls-text_x..htm

April 1, 1:26 a.m. (To Michael Berg, Berg's father)
I have confirmed that your son, Nick, is being detained by the U.S. military in Mosul. He is safe. He was picked up approximately one week ago. We will try to obtain additional information regarding his detention and a contact person you can communicate with directly.

April 1, 5:23 a.m. (To Suzanne Berg, Berg's mother)
I have been able to confirm that your son is being detained by the U.S. military. I am attempting to identify a person with the U.S. military or FBI here in Iraq who you can contact directly with your questions.

And, according to CNN, Berg himself had contacted a friend -- Chilean reporter Hugo Infante -- saying he was in US custody:
http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/05/13/berg.friends/

The US Administration denies this, saying he was in Mosul Iraqi police custody, BUT "...police chief Maj. Gen. Mohammed Khair al-Barhawi in Mosul insisted his department had never arrested Berg and said he had no knowledge of the case. ''The Iraqi police never arrested the slain American,'' al-Barhawi told reporters. ''Take it from me ... that such reports are baseless.''
http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/w...iraq-berg.html

And of course there are the American orange prisoner jumpsuit and white plastic chair and yellow walls which appear in the video -- exactly as they do at Abu Ghraib, the now-notorious site of the American torture of Iraqi POWs:
http://marc.perkel.com/images/berg-chair.jpg
http://marc.perkel.com/images/babe-chair.jpg
http://marc.perkel.com/images/prison01.jpg
http://marc.perkel.com/images/orangegarb.jpg

Next, the hosting website was reported to be in Malaysia, but was discovered to actually located in London:

Says Jackblood.com, which ran a trace:
"...www.al-asnar.net and www.al-asnar.biz have apparently been disabled by 'authorities.' ...the publishers for these sites are located in London, England and Nurnberg, Denmark.

"The addresses began to disappear from the internet listings as we reported this development on The Power Hour Radio Show. Apparently, "Big Brother"; had been listening to the show and didn't like the news at all. The location of the publishers for al-ansar.net appears to be at an Arab Press Building, which appears to be shared by different Arab newspublications. The name of the organization is the Arab Press House. Thebuilding is apparently the headquarters for news magazines such as, AlJamilla, Sayidaty, and Al Majallah among others.

The London address is the following:
http://www.al-ansar.net
Arab Press House
Abdel Rahman al-Rashed
184 High Holborn, WCIV78P, London
tel. 020 78318181

The other address is located in Nurnberg, Denmark. It apparently belongs to a man named Omar AbuOmar. His email address is:alansar_alansar@hotmail.com .

The complete mailing address is the following:
http://www.al-ansar.biz
Omar AbuOmar
New Dream St. 33
Nurnberg, Denmark, 42114
Phone: +965.15441211
Email: alansar_alansar@hotmail.com

...these same websites (www.al-asnar.net and www.al-asnar.biz) were the ones that posted the latest Bin Laden audio recording, weeks ago. Despite knowing the website addresses, and potentially the addresses of their respective publishers, the CIA, the FBI, and the Department of Homeland Security did not make any apparent efforts to monitor the websites for uploaded files or internet traffic. Therefore, no arrests were made."

Next, the AK-47 carried by one of the men is a "Gilal" -- an Israeli weapon that improves on the AK- 47. Feyadeen and other insurgents almost universally use AK-47s. The man in the left of the video is standing in the American military stance known as "parade rest", and several of the apparent terrorists are wearing white tennis shoes ad bulletproof vests.

At frame 13:46:27, there is an edit and a person with a white ear and a green cap is seen entering from the right. Then the video is re-edited.

Matt Drudge reports that "The statement in the video was signed off with Zarqawi's name and dated 11 May" , but Berg's body was reported found on May 10th -- the day before the video was apparently made!
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Old 21st May 2004, 04:32   #176
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If true, very bizarre.
Shit's getting so weird in the world that I feel like moving into a cave.
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Old 21st May 2004, 07:45   #177
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/marvin puts on his tinfoil hat and go's and hides in the cellar.

It's been said that I could start an arguement in an empty room.....I see no reason to disbelieve this.
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Old 21st May 2004, 08:03   #178
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I read a page immediately after the tape had surfaced that claimed Al Zarqawi was dead.

Not that the CIA wouldn't be capable of doing such a thing but what would they gain from it?
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Old 21st May 2004, 09:52   #179
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i've read similar accounts in a number of different places. weirder and weirder.

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Old 21st May 2004, 22:35   #180
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Quote:
Originally posted by gaekwad2
...Not that the CIA wouldn't be capable of doing such a thing but what would they gain from it?
If they did such a thing, there would be some serious gains;

1) George Bush Sr is an ex head of the CIA
2) The Bush family has many strange and dodgy connections in the Middle East

The Benefits;

1) It diverts the attention of the American public from the revelations of torture by US troops on Iraqis.
2) The US public might get back behind Bush.
3) By doing so, he bolsters his chances of winning the election.
4) It could allow Bush the distraction he needs to get an extra 25 billion dollars for his war in Iraq.
5) By doing the above, his cronies get to stick their snouts further in the trough.


/marvin puts his tinfoil hat back on and heads to the cellar.

PS - I think the poor bastard got executed, doubt its the CIA, but stranger things ahve happened....

It's been said that I could start an arguement in an empty room.....I see no reason to disbelieve this.
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