Old 7th February 2006, 20:08   #161
Mattress
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and you believe in stuff like the big bang because you didn't read about it in a book?

Sure scientists say they can show that everything came from one big ass explosion based on reading background radiation patterns or something.

I guess it is more plausable that something came from nothing for no reason.
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Old 7th February 2006, 21:07   #162
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Quote:
Originally posted by zootm
...based upon the best information we have at the time...
You just said the magic words! Give that man a ceeeegar!

500 years ago men believed the earth was flat.
2500 years ago men believed the earth rode on the back of a turtle.
Who knows what the future will bring? Maybe if we peer deep enough into the universe (into the past) we'll see God lighting the fuse!

You say fundimentalists believe in a book. I believe a lot of things written in books, and I believe you do too. I don't believe everything written in all books, and I don't think you do either. Maybe you just don't believe old books. Where do YOU draw the line? 499 years or 50?

[edit]You also said the Bible was written by prophets. That is not true. You might want to check you facts.[/edit]

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Old 7th February 2006, 22:08   #163
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Quote:
Originally posted by Mattress
I guess it is more plausable that something came from nothing for no reason.
I don't think it's possible to have a belief system that doesn't involve something coming from nothing for no reason, because if you go back far enough, there's either something, or nothing. And if it's something, where did it come from?
Anyway, I don't agree with Chev's bias against believers, but this thread is more polarized than it ought to be, as usual. Scientists aren't out fighting to disprove God. Scientists are trying to figure out how the world works and where it's going for practical reasons. Most people who believe in God aren't out fighting to disprove science, they're just passing on what they believe in. Some people decide to make it into a big unnecessary battle because people love arguing.


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Old 7th February 2006, 23:45   #164
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Quote:
Originally posted by CaboWaboAddict
500 years ago men believed the earth was flat.
2500 years ago men believed the earth rode on the back of a turtle.
Who knows what the future will bring? Maybe if we peer deep enough into the universe (into the past) we'll see God lighting the fuse!
Yes, but in the future, we'll still be working with the best information we have science will still be the forefront of our understanding.

In the future, fundamentalists will still believe exactly the same thing. That's the point. That's the difference. Science builds upon itself, makes itself better, improves our understanding.

I'll take the cigar, though.

Quote:
Originally posted by CaboWaboAddict
You say fundimentalists believe in a book. I believe a lot of things written in books, and I believe you do too. I don't believe everything written in all books, and I don't think you do either. Maybe you just don't believe old books. Where do YOU draw the line? 499 years or 50?
I draw the line when I'm given no justification, no rationalisation, and asked to ignore contrasting statements from other books without explanations. Even then, though, there's very little in most holy books that requires too much contrasting, since they're effectively based on very little that's observable, and a lot of faith. Fundamentalists take it a step further by taking things that don't appear particularly suited to be literal truth. The problem I'm facing, though, is why this book? Why not another holy book?

The answer, of course, is no reason other than this is the holy book that my parents read. And that's not enough for me.

Quote:
Originally posted by CaboWaboAddict
[edit]You also said the Bible was written by prophets. That is not true. You might want to check you facts.[/edit]
I said "fundamentalists", not "fundamentalist Christians", although I guess that this implication washed over from the quote. I know the Bible wasn't written by "prophets" as such, though (I'd be fairly surprised if you knew the Bible better than me), I was just making a (fairly inaccurate, as you point out) generalisation of terms.

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Old 7th February 2006, 23:49   #165
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I see some of you need to read up on string and M theory. It offers a quite good explination of the big bang.

Hint: it didn't come from nothing, but something that has always existed.

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Old 8th February 2006, 00:59   #166
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Quote:
Originally posted by SSJ4 Gogitta
it didn't come from nothing, but something that has always existed.
Well where did that come from? Eh? Eh?
/I'll read up on it later.


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Old 8th February 2006, 11:17   #167
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Quote:
Originally posted by LuigiHann
Well where did that come from? Eh? Eh?
/I'll read up on it later.
Quote:
Originally posted by SSJ4 Gogitta
I see some of you need to read up on string and M theory. It offers a quite good explination of the big bang.

Hint: it didn't come from nothing, but something that has always existed.

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Old 8th February 2006, 12:32   #168
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I know, I just think that the very idea of having something that "always existed" muddles up the whole point of... trying to find the origin of things. I don't buy it when they say God has always existed, so why should I buy yours
/edit: I'm pretty much just playing Devil's advocate here.


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Old 8th February 2006, 14:00   #169
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You don't have to. It is, after all, a theory (the validation that multiple universes exist may be shown in a few years with the new super-colliders opening in some places). Membranes* making up the infinte number of universes split to create even more universes (there are various levels of infinity. If that ain't a brainfuck...), in a process that continues forever. Makes more sense than an omnipotent being that lives in the sky.

Our universe popped into existance about 14 billion years ago when either one membrane split into two, or two membranes bumped into each other, releasing enough energy in both membranes to start each universe over again. Is that right? Who knows, but I'll accept that explination any time over the existance of a god.


*A (mem)brane is a multidimensional object usually called p-brane referring to its spatial dimensionality p (for example, a string is a 1-brane and a flat surface is a 2-brane). There are different forms of branes: p-brane, D-brane, and black brane. P-branes are membrane-like structures of one to eleven dimensions that arise in equations of M-theory. These branes are said to float in an eleven-dimensional space and contain universes, including our own. They are the components that connect all aspects of our physical and energy universe.

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Old 8th February 2006, 14:36   #170
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I think the reason most people have difficulty accepting the existence of a God is the tendency religions have to personify Him, leading to the "invisible man in the sky" image that most athiests find ludicrous. Personally, I think of "God" as more of a flowing force, that guides occurrences, without interfering with free will. In my mind, God is essencially synonymous with "probability," (simply, the 'force' which decides whether or not any given thing will occur) and that idea works for me on both a scientific and religious level, although I'm sure most people on either side of the argument would disagree with me.


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