Old 9th June 2003, 23:06   #41
Solar56
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a few facts

Some of you make very good points, but most of you are not informed as to reality. The recording industry has suffered near 30% of historical sales, not 6%. The number of new releases is not relevant to the figures, they are based on per album sales. P2P is a good thing, but not for sharing illegal material. Many of you have made statements that are wholly uniformed and it is obvious in many cases that you are speaking with only your own selfish interests in mind.

Comparing CD prices to movie prices is silly. Ever hear of a music CD rental store? The residual revenues from movie sales allow them to be manufactured and sold at a "discount". It doesn't cost 20-200 million to produce a music CD, but there are less marketing sources for music CD's. Remember that movies have already made their run at the theaters where they make money unlike musicians who typically make very little touring and the labels mostly lose money. Only a few artists are able to make money touring for their labels. Aside from a Britney doll or New kids beach towel there is very little in the way of licensing for music artists as well.

For those of you who say that the RIAA and the like can eat their shorts and want to keep stealing copyrighted material you are fools to think that you are sneaking anything. Every illegal download from Kazza for example is monitored and the recipient registered in the RIAA database. They have already started sending out bills for downloaded music. Many people have lost their jobs due to their workplaces getting billed.

If you think that P2P only communicates with individual clients you are very wrong. Every single nybble of information that is passed on the web is monitored at the dozen or so main data trunks. They are passed though filters to sort out any info that is deemed illegal or threatening to the powers that be.

Don't forget that labels only make money from distribution, the artists get writers rights as well. They receive a large portion of their money from radio play and movie soundtracks.

P2P is good for bands, but not when people are copying entire songs and albums and not paying a cent for them. You are stealing when you do this. There is nothing you can say that will change this fact.
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Old 10th June 2003, 04:14   #42
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Quote:
If you think that P2P only communicates with individual clients you are very wrong. Every single nybble of information that is passed on the web is monitored at the dozen or so main data trunks. They are passed though filters to sort out any info that is deemed illegal or threatening to the powers that be.



cough bullshit cough The part about the RIAA monitoring people is possible (for reasons explained below), but even now I think your lying because of what you say below that.

YOU obviously have no idea what the fuck you are talking about. Data on the internet DOES NOT pass through "a dozen or so main data trunks". No sir you are wrong. It is possible for a packet of data to travel hundreds of different hubs and switches and "hops" before reaching it's destination. And that all depends on your ISP and what the weather is like outside! The amount of "hops" is usually under 15, but the number of actual network transitions thinking in terms of switches, routers and hubs ranks in the hundred range. The path data takes is completely unpredictable. I repeat, COMPLETELY unpredictable. If you don't believe me, try typing this in a Dos window:
tracert www.google.com

then go to a computer with a different ISP and try it again. The results will be different. waaaay different. You will see similarities as the data nears it's destination (and of course is start) but once it's out in cyberspace, it's path is quite random(although the shortest path is attempted)

Kazaa monitoring works because every time your computer connects, it sends it's unique IP address to the Kazaa master server. That address can be referenced against DNS server information, which will reveal your ISP (who is contacted), who will reference it against their IP vs. MAC address list, and contact you. This is the only way you are able to be identified on the internet.

Data monitoring on the internet is next to impossible, simply for the fact there are no "main data trunks." Such a concept is silly, as the internet was designed to be a spider web and clearly shows the author of the previous post has peanuts for brains and a small penus at that. If the internet wasn't designed so, the Russians could nuke New York and our entire military data network would be crippled and we'd be back to using the pony express. The only such pinch point would be at your ISP's data entry point. So unless the RIAA gets permission to monitor all data entering and exiting the Gazillions of ISP's worldwide, what you are saying is impossible.

Even the DNS is spread out; granted Internic and such companies contain the master lists of DNS data, but the information is cached in an infinite amount of places across the internet. There is no telling where your computer got it's DNS lookup from. In the goggle example above, all of these are possible, #1 being the most likely (and the fastest):

1. If you just visited the site, the DNS info will be in your local DNS Cache.
2. If someone behind the same firewall as you just visited the site(aka on your LAN), your computer will retrieve it from the router/firewall. (Then your computer stores it in it's local cache)
3. If someone in the same ISP as you recently visited the site, your computer will retrieve it from your ISP's server cache (Then your router, and your local cache store it).
4. If all else fails, your ISP will retrieve it from a major corporation's master DNS table. Which will probably retrieve it elsewhere, but eventually it will contact a master server (Internic or the like) and get the information. Then all the devices behind listed in 1, 2, 3, and 4 will store it in their local caches.

This is called fall-back design. Not only is it 100% completely unpredictable when any computer will ask for DNS refresh, but DNS makes a poor pinch point because on P2P systems, most peers do not have domain names anyway. They simply transmit a raw IP address. (making you very "un-anonymous” anyway)

And another point, you obviously have no concept on the amount of data passed across the internet each day. A single high speed connection point at your ISP can see terabytes of data per day. P2p is lake Ontario vs. the Pacific Ocean.

And yet another point, data on the internet is fragmented into tiny bits called packets. Without monitoring an entire packet stream (connection), it'd be like looking at a single piece of a mosaic and declaring it priceless.

If you consider the previous two statements in combination, the computing power needed would require processing technology available hundreds of years from now. (if it were possible anyway, to monitor every packet transmitted across the internet for reasons mentioned above)

Ex: Average Packet size for my computer:

402 bytes

A terabyte:

1,099,511,627,776 bytes

You do the math.


So in conclusion, you are full of shit, you are full of shit, and you are full of shit. Ok?

Last edited by Exabrial; 10th June 2003 at 04:29.
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Old 10th June 2003, 14:58   #43
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Quote:
originally posted by Solar56
Don't forget that labels only make money from distribution, the artists get writers rights as well. They receive a large portion of their money from radio play and movie soundtracks.
Sorry Solar56, but I can't agree with that either

Lets say an artists signs a record deal with an advance
of $250,000.
These figures are representative of amounts that appear
in record contracts daily.
(Thank you Steve Albini, producer of Nirvana's "In Utero"
for these figures)

Income is bold and expenses are not.

Advance: $250,000
Manager's cut: $37,500
Legal fees: $10,000
Recording Budget: $150,000
Producer's advance: $50,000
Studio fee: $52,500
Drum Amp, Mic and Phase "Doctors": $3,000
Recording tape: $8,000
Equipment rental: $5,000
Cartage and Transportation: $5,000
Lodgings while in studio: $10,000
Catering: $3,000
Mastering: $10,000
Tape copies, reference CDs, shipping tapes, misc. expenses: $2,000
Video budget: $30,000
Cameras: $8,000
Crew: $5,000
Processing and transfers: $3,000
Off-line: $2,000
On-line editing: $3,000
Catering: $1,000
Stage and construction: $3,000
Copies, couriers, transportation: $2,000
Director's fee: $3,000
Album Artwork: $5,000
Promotional photo shoot and duplication: $2,000
Band fund: $15,000
New fancy professional drum kit: $5,000
New fancy professional guitars [2]: $3,000
New fancy professional guitar amp rigs [2]: $4,000
New fancy potato-shaped bass guitar: $1,000
New fancy rack of lights bass amp: $1,000
Rehearsal space rental: $500
Big blowout party for their friends: $500
Tour expense [5 weeks]: $50,875
Bus: $25,000
Crew [3]: $7,500
Food and per diems: $7,875
Fuel: $3,000
Consumable supplies: $3,500
Wardrobe: $1,000
Promotion: $3,000
Tour gross income: $50,000
Agent's cut: $7,500
Manager's cut: $7,500
Merchandising advance: $20,000
Manager's cut: $3,000
Lawyer's fee: $1,000
Publishing advance: $20,000
Manager's cut: $3,000
Lawyer's fee: $1,000
Record sales: 250,000 @ $12 = $3,000,000
Gross retail revenue Royalty: [13% of 90% of retail]: $351,000
Less advance: $250,000
Producer's points: [3% less $50,000 advance]: $40,000
Promotional budget: $25,000
Recoupable buyout from previous label: $50,000
Net royalty: $-14,000

---------------------------------------------------------------------
Record company income:
Record wholesale price: $6.50 x 250,000 = $1,625,000 gross income
Artist Royalties: $351,000
Deficit from royalties: $14,000
Manufacturing, packaging and distribution: @$2.20 per record: $ 550,000
Gross profit: $7l0,000

---------------------------------------------------------------------
The Balance Sheet: This is how much each player got paid at the end.
Record company: $710,000
Producer: $ 90,000
Manager: $ 51,000
Studio: $ 52,500
Previous label: $ 50,000
Agent: $ 7,500
Lawyer: $ 12,000
Band member net income each: $ 4,031.25

The band is now 1/4 of the way through its contract,
has made the music industry more than 3 million dollars richer,
but is in the hole $14,000 on royalties.
The band members have each earned about 1/3 as much as they would working at a 7-11,
but they got to ride in a tour bus for a month.
So now they're committed to the record company to produce a second album,
which takes more time and more money.

And you've got to be kidding me saying they make money off
radio play and movie soundtracks.
Of all the bands you can think of, how many have you heard on a
movie soundtrack?
If you think artists are making money off records or airplay,
why did the Dixie Chicks sue Sony Records and win?
Why are so many others now suing their record companies, and winning?

Last edited by papadoc; 10th June 2003 at 15:17.
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Old 10th June 2003, 16:15   #44
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Why those companies should all go down in flames

I don't pretend to know a lot about this subject, but I just wanna say this:
I hope Kazaa and Morpheus and all those absolutely destroy the record companies and the power they hold in this industry. Then maybe we won't be fed the same crap over and over again that's spilt out just to make money, and music might actually become new and daring. I'm not saying that this is true right now without exception, I'm just saying that it's the dream of lots of people to be singers because of fame and money--it's no longer about the art.
So the second we take money out of the equation, music suddenly has meaning again.

That's it

-SHR
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Old 11th June 2003, 05:37   #45
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wow papadoc, what a great flame...


I thought of a couple more things today:
Quote:
Comparing CD prices to movie prices is silly. Ever hear of a music CD rental store? The residual revenues from movie sales allow them to be manufactured and sold at a "discount". It doesn't cost 20-200 million to produce a music CD, but there are less marketing sources for music CD's. Remember that movies have already made their run at the theaters where they make money unlike musicians who typically make very little touring and the labels mostly lose money. Only a few artists are able to make money touring for their labels. Aside from a Britney doll or New kids beach towel there is very little in the way of licensing for music artists as well.
What about movies THAT WERE NOT shown in theaters and still costed 70-80-90 million a piece to make? (Blade series, Equilibrium, ect ect) It's completely relavent, It's competition for out attention, and our money. I've bought 3 dvd's since Jan this year, and i haven't bought a single music cd. There just isn't any music right now i'd pay $16 to own right now.

And as far as licensing goes, what about Pepsi and Britney Spears? Hell what about Michel Jackson and Pepsi? Did you see on MTV how they had Justin Timberlake give a three hour special on Matrix Reloaded a week before it came out? What about Nelly, Shania Twain, Aerosmith, Whitney Houston at the Superbowl? What about every god damn Twix commericial on TV? (Every time it's a different DJ) What if at teh current moment bruce willis goes on your coke cans... would that help any? Probably not... What if 50cent went on your coke can? You might see a change. Your point about licensing oppourtunities is completely misguided. Licensing goes to whoever is popular, for whatever reason. Movies or Music.

Oh yes, and I have heard of a music CD at a rental store. A matter of fact, it was free. Ever heard of a Public Library?
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Old 11th June 2003, 15:06   #46
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Re: a few facts

Quote:
Originally posted by Solar56
Ever hear of a music CD rental store?
yeah, had some in germany. pretty cool idea. first time i got to listen to certain beatles albums, prompting me buy one later.

can also check out cds at our public library.
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Old 11th June 2003, 15:12   #47
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Quote:
Originally posted by Exabrial
wow papadoc, what a great flame...
Not a flame, just a response.
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Old 12th June 2003, 02:54   #48
Solar56
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rubbish

Exabrial: Everything on the internet is routed. There is no such thing as true peer to peer across the internet. Household internet service like at&t is not a parallel network, you break it, it all goes down. Why don't we email DARPA and settle this matter. I will post what they reply. I did like your math though, it was neat.

PapaDOc: You forget that the In Utero tour was ABORTED due to Kurt's murder/death and those figures are not complete. I know first hand that band members make more money than that on the road and that most musicians are living off of their writers and publishing rights.
Bands make a lot more money when their songs are on movie soundtracks, whoever says differently is not informed. Who do you think makes the background music during movies? You can bet that it is not original work by the studios. You can tell Steve Albini that his numbers are skewed. Those numbers are absolute horseshit that some accountant drew up. I was living at Roger Fisher's when Kurt died. His brother Mike was putting on the stage production and doing the sound. I know the studio owner that recorded them. I KNOW that those numbers are not accurate. I am touring with three bands this summer and have done five album covers and directed a video for VH-1. Even for 1993 those numbers are low. Both for expenses and profits.

As far as CD rental stores, does the library charge a buck for each rental? Or are you just borrowing it like you do a book?

Back to the bottom line: taking music without permission if theft. Does anyone want to challenge that fact or just spout "justifications".
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Old 12th June 2003, 03:12   #49
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hopefully we can settle this.

I just emailed Dr. Lawernce Roberts, the man who created the internet at ARPA in the late 60's. I will post his response.
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Old 12th June 2003, 15:29   #50
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Sorry, but those numbers have nothing to do with the In Utero Tour
or Kurt Cobain or Nirvana, and I never said they did.
Nor did he. I only said they were complied by Steve Albini,
given as an example of what someone might face
when they sign a recording contract at the time.

Oh and btw...I'll admit right now
that I don't download music off the internet,
other than an occasional live mix.
(Shocked now huh?)
If there's something I want I go buy it.
But for a very long time, there just hasn't been anything released
that I'd waste my money on.
(Alison Krauss + Union Station "Live", Galactic's "Coolin Off",
NickelCreek's "This Side" and recently Led Zeppelin's "How The West Was Won" has been it)
Maybe because I'm a child of the 60's and my tastes have changed.
Maybe because I've watched what's happened to the industry as a musician
who remembers the day the 8-track tape came out,
and then the cassette tape and the VCR
(which got this whole thing started anyway)
and witnessed how greedy that industry has gotten over the years,
and how they've used and abused the artists who got them there.
So I listen to Internet Radio now.
It's the way FM radio used to be.
(the RIAA is trying to screw that up too)

So you see I'm not trying to justify ripping music off p2p's.
I can clearly see why people do though,
and honestly don't blame them at this point in history.
I'm just trying to point out two things:
1. The artists are getting screwed by the RIAA and the
record companies, they have for years, and that needs to change.
2. The RIAA are living in the past, need to accept the changeing
world around them, and become a part of it.

And if you'd like to read the entire article
I lifted those figures from it's here.
That's why I gave credit to him, to be legal about it.

Last edited by papadoc; 12th June 2003 at 16:59.
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Old 12th June 2003, 17:52   #51
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Solar56: Downloading music fromthe net is NOT theft..... some bands even say they WANT people to download their music........ There is nothing phsyical to "steal" when downloading a music file.......... It is just a bunch of 0's and 1's......... and there are people that download songs they acutally HAVE the CD's they came on........ If downloading music is theft then downloading a ROM is theft.......

"Love is what you make of it, if you wish it to last for all time, then you must be willing to risk it all for the one you love."

- Sean T. Wiliams (1983 - )
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Old 12th June 2003, 21:15   #52
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PapaDoc: I agree with what you say about the RIAA. There was a reallly good set of articles in WIRED early this year that had an interview with Hillary Rosen where she talked about how the labels think that she is too leniant. She knows that downloadable music is the future, but she does not mean for free unless the artist wants to do that. I am glad that you do not rip pirate CD's and as far as bootleg live performances go, I would hope that bands would promote this as long as it wasn't taken directly off the sound board illicitly.

Janus Lunar: Downloading a ROM is theft if you do not have permission to do so. Why you think otherwise baffles me. I think that it should be ok for people who have purchased the right to music to be able to download it when their CD's give up the ghost. I did not always take care of my CD's growing up and have easily one hundred cases that are either missing cd's or have damaged ones. If I had the time, it would be nice to be able to resurrect the CD's that I paid for. What is stealing is when someone goes and downloads a song or CD that they did not pay for or have the right to use. How would you feel if someone hacked your bank account (assuming that you have one) and downloaded your money into theirs? No bug deal right? Just 0's and 1's...... :-)
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Old 12th June 2003, 21:22   #53
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Exabrial: I have to admit that you were right about the web. I was misled.Here is the good doctor's reply:


No one is able to filter any significant part of the Internet traffic, particularly for words in the body. It is hardly worth it since if you were concerned you could easily encrypt with PPP or something else. So that is a wrong rumor. There are 20 long haul Internet service suppliers who carry the traffic across the US. Each has perhaps 100 trunks. No one router or trunk carries more than a few % of the total Internet traffic, if that. Another bad rumor. Some countries like China have tried to monitor traffic content but they have largely failed due to the huge volume. But China and Saudi do try.

Larry
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Old 13th June 2003, 07:14   #54
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Funny Solar very funny..........
My point with ROMs was that you are not allowed to keep them on your Computer longer than 24 hours if you do not own the game......

"Love is what you make of it, if you wish it to last for all time, then you must be willing to risk it all for the one you love."

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Old 13th June 2003, 14:55   #55
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I will admit, I haven’t bought a CD for a few months now. Why? The charts are filled to overflowing with manufactured crap. I am not being catered for at all. When I walk into my local CD store it’s full of crap! Everywhere! What is the point? I don’t visit stores now.

I have resorted to p2p, where I can access decent music (most of it foreign). The tracks I download aren’t available in my home town in any case, they would be taking-up valuable shelf-space used for boy bands etc.

The music industry closed its doors to me about 5 years ago (before the advent of large scale p2p). p2p is my salvation. I’m of the opinion Kazaa etc will kill-off the music industry as we know it, and it’s no bad thing at all. Bring it on!
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Old 15th June 2003, 22:54   #56
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Quote:
Originally posted by Cylob
I will admit, I haven’t bought a CD for a few months now. Why? The charts are filled to overflowing with manufactured crap. I am not being catered for at all. When I walk into my local CD store it’s full of crap! Everywhere! What is the point? I don’t visit stores now.


totally agree... i have very few cds store bought, and i got them only after bumming a copy off a friend to see if it was worth getting. i want to be able to listen to a whole cd and not keep hitting the skip button. and there are songs/cds no longer in market that i would like to get, and getting them from a used store is dicey at best...
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Old 15th June 2003, 22:57   #57
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also.......... what about the used cd stores...... isn't that "stealing", i don't think the industry gets a cut from those places.
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Old 16th June 2003, 10:59   #58
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Physical CD's are fast becoming obsolete anyway. I have 1,000+ CD's and haven't played one for ages (I've converted them all to MP3). They've been left now to gather dust. You can't beat the convenience of accessing your music from your PC, you can have 10,000, 20,000, 30,000 tracks on shuffle! As opposed to 10-17 on a disc.

I am out of the CD buying circuit altogether - what can the industry do to tempt me to part with cash? Well, I'd be willing to pay £1 a shot for the artwork! That's one thing you can't just acquire. If they did that, I'd be spending again. As it is, money I used to spend on CDs is spent directly on technology (broadband connection, larger hard-drive, sound card, speakers).

When it comes to downloading, my conscience is clear – I just refer to the waves of bands that were axed in the 90’s (for not earning enough). The industry turned a fertile music scene into a wasteland in a matter of 2-3 years. All without the aid of the internet.

I’m waiting to see if an unsigned band can become famous through the internet alone (word-of-mouth etc). You can turn fame into cash quite readily. I can see it happening.
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Old 17th June 2003, 03:19   #59
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i noticed something at the billboard site. you have to pay to become a preferred member just to check certain areas of their site. and they have a whole big section for the RIAA. damn, i can remember a couple months ago that you could go all over that place for free!
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Old 17th June 2003, 19:20   #60
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A N Y W A Y S...as for not being informed of reality? i dunno about your guys' positions on this but i'm pretty steadfast when i say that the RIAA has stooped to a new low. Why would an institution as large and undoubtedly STILL WEALTHY as the RIAA have to resort to ruining individual college students' lives by filing suit against them? Did the RIAA feel that it would make up for the MILLIONS of people doing the same exact thing as we SPEAK??? (by the way i'm DLing right now, SUCK IT RIAA) It truely is pathetic and unfortunately shows how our country is run by the green. You can bring out your statistics and percentages, profit loss and all that BS, but i'm simply taking a HUMAN standpoint. What the RIAA is doing is NOT right. There simply is nothing that can be done about it. It is a technological affair we are actually talking about, NOT some poor college student. We are already seeing wireless internet connections for laptop computers at cable/dsl speeds. Soon we'll all be DLing while on the move, not just at home. Do you get my drift? Technology is advancing and it is a force that cannot be stopped unless you can somehow slow down technological progression. It can't be avoided. The better the technology we develop, the faster our connections to the internet will be. It will only get easier and easier to share and copy and "pirate" music. And in this world where we simply depend on technology, slowing technology, would be slowing us down. That would never happen. The RIAA needs to realize that they're precious little record deals will mean nothing in a completely digital world, where one person's music can be the whole world's music with the click of a button.
This perspective may be harsh but it DOES seem like we are headed that way. Especially with third world countries beginning to catch up with technological trends, only more and more people will be capable of sharing files, or "stealing music". As for musicians in general, it may just be a bad time for big record deals and toppling the charts, but i honestly don't see it getting any easier them. But then again, if music is truely your cause, then why is money such an issue? I am a huge underground hip hop head and the whole philosophy behind that is the music. Hip hop artists who struggle going up and down the west coast while being supported by local fans who admire them for the simple fact that they don't try to go MTV, or go mainstream. (SELL OUT) For example, I'm not saying he's a sell out, but talib kweli was underground until he just recently blew up on the MTV scene with his song, "Get By". I personally liked his underground stuff better (most fans would agree) and supported the artist by buying his CD if i felt his cause, beliefs, ideals, and talents were worth my $15. Well, i think thats enough said, so reply, rebuttle, whatever. Just hear me out, see things for what they are, and DOWN WITH THE RIAA.
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Old 17th June 2003, 19:38   #61
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There's only one reason the RIAA went after those college students.
To show all the rest of the college students at campuses around
the country, and to show the colleges themselves,
THAT THEY CAN and THEY WILL.
They're using those kids as an example to the rest who think
they can get away with "piracy".
It has nothing to do with money...NOTHING!
The RIAA used all their power and all the money they needed to,
to "get" those kids.
The RIAA blames college kids for most of the piracy,
because to them that's where it started,
both the development of p2p networks and the continual
downloading of music.
If the RIAA had their way, they'd change the law's about
the right to privacy, and barge in on every dorm room,
like the gestapo did in Germany.
They'd confiscate every computer, and take everyone to jail.
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Old 17th June 2003, 20:03   #62
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Nothing depresses me more than the weight of the RIAA coming-down on individuals.

Heroes will be made.

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Old 17th June 2003, 23:01   #63
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Check out what this IDIOT said today:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...2003Jun17.html

Yep...Senator Orin Hatch wants to see development of technology
that will remotely destroy someone's computer that is
downloading music.
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Old 18th June 2003, 20:08   #64
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how does it have nothing to do with money? sure the RIAA can make an example of some college student who's taking advantage of the dorm's T1 connection, but when it comes down to it, why is it that the RIAA feels they need to make an example of a college student in order to stop a growing trend in file sharing??? (rhetorical) Because, it's that same growing trend that is directly responsible for loss of sales in the music industry. In the end, it's actually all about money, the green, the benjamins. "Money makes the world go 'round". Cliche, yet very true in this case, and almost every other. How pitful and corrupt the world is. An entire industry taking legal action against individual college students? And besides, how far do you think this example made of those students will affect the nation? Will it spill over from colleges into the millions of homes with cable/dsl? Maybe. But it won't stop me. Free music for my ears! yay

oh yea, one thing id like to add. with all this talk about confiscation, destruction, or damaging of computers as an answer to the file sharing problem, wouldn't it mean an eventual drop in sales of cd-r's, cd burners, computers equipped with cd burners, etc. I'm sure that a large portion of revenue in the computer industry is based around file sharing. So what i'm saying is that the RIAA cracking down on file sharing would adversely affect the computer industry in a negative way...if the loss was significant enough, wouldn't the computer industry speak up? hehehe...downward spiral...but its just food for thought...

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Old 18th June 2003, 20:14   #65
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Ultimately, life is too short. The only thing that'll stop me downloading is a gun to the head. Even then I'll have to think about it. I need music.

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Old 19th June 2003, 17:10   #66
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@ knowmadic:
I didn't say the entire ordeal isn't about money.
I said this one case against these college students isn't.
They're gonna have to pay up to $17,500 spread out over X number of years.
That's $17,500 x 4 = $56,000 divided by X number of years.
This is a drop in the bucket for the RIAA.
They spent twice that much prosecuting these kids.
They're just using these students to send a message.
Now it's even in question if they are gonna have to pay at all.
The RIAA has decided to send them "Cease and Desist" letters.
The RIAA had to know this would get out.
They also have to know the content of the letters
will eventually hit the internet too.
I can't wait to read what the RIAA has to say in those letters.

And don't think for a second that because Hillary Rosen is
stepping down as Chairman of the RIAA, that she will go away,
and things will get better.
She's signed a deal with CNBC to spread her bullshit on TV,
reaching more people than ever.
She'll be 100% totally biased, in the RIAA's favor!!!
They couldn't have asked for a better setup.

http://www.nypost.com/business/1319.htm

When Hillary Rosen decided to step down this was said:

"In a statement, Rosen cited personal reasons for leaving
the Recording Industry Association of America,
where she has served as chief executive since 1998."

""During my tenure here, the recording industry has undergone
dramatic challenges and it is well positioned for future success.
I have been extremely proud to be a part of this industry transition," Rosen said.
"But I have young children and I want to devote more of my time to them."

In my humble opinion, Hillary Rosen is a conniving, deceitful, liar.
Now we know the real reason you stepped down Hillary!

Last edited by papadoc; 19th June 2003 at 18:04.
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Old 19th June 2003, 20:59   #67
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the world suffers from mass confusion

it's really great to read the articles that you link for us, papadoc. you've clearly been keeping up on all of this a lot more than most, including me. things like UCITA and the Digital Millenium Copyright Act, and whatever you'd call that the RIAA is doing, simultansouly amuse and enrage me... they were created by people who don't like adapting to the new technology, and at first, lots of people agree. But then you read about Verizon getting in a tizzy about having to hand over names, and being forced to do so by the Millenium Copyright Act... lots of states taking bombshelter legislation against UCITA... I hate what the laws mean for me now, but if I were outside of it all, I'd be rolling on the floor laughing at the mess and chaos everyone has created for themselves.

law making is always a generation behind the times, because the law-makers are all a generation or two old as they retire, and people like you and I, 20 or 30 years down the road, start making laws, then things will change. (of course, by then there will probably be something new that we don't like adapting to, and people will be waiting for us to croak so they can fill our positions) Until then, I don't know what we can do. We can make web pages like againstTCPA, and post in forums... but I think in the end, people like what they're familiar with, and what they know, and it will be hard to convince all the older people in high positions to change what they think and believe.

[shrugs] a thought.
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Old 24th June 2003, 18:05   #68
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AGGGH! All of you are full of CRAP! Completely! Every one! Even those who agree with me! You're full of crap too! I am the only non-crap-filled person here! BAHHAAAH~!!!

Heheh. Ok, that's better. Now onto the logical part:

Quote:
Originally posted by Exabrial
What about movies THAT WERE NOT shown in theaters and still costed 70-80-90 million a piece to make? (Blade series, Equilibrium, ect ect)
Duh... Equilibrium had a $20,000,000, not $80,000,000 budget, and since I saw it twice in theaters, I find it very hard to believe that it wasn't shown in theaters. On a side note, Equilibrium is a fucking cool movie!

As for music:

1) Downloading music IS STEALING - YOU ARE TAKING THAT WHICH OTHERS CREATED, SPENDING THOUSANDS OF HOURS ON. CAN YOU NOT SEE THAT? If you sneak into a movie theater, it is stealing. If you copy a friend's book for your own, it is stealing. If you pirate software, it is stealing. If you go into Intel's headquarters, copy their chip designs, and start selling your own P4s, it is stealing. If you download a ROM, and play it, it is stealing. The 24-hour thing is bullshit.
2) If you "wouldn't have bought the CD anyway", THEN WHY ARE YOU DOWNLOADING IT?
3) Yes, I can see downloading music to hear it, to see if you like it. It's like those "preview stations" at music stores. However, most people don't rip the preview stations out of the walls, and take them home. Not so with P2P.
4) As far as I can tell, musicians rely on large CD sales (>500,000) to make it at all in the music industry.

Does anyone care to comment on #4, as I am not a professional musician?

Freedom of speech is the basic freedom of humanity. When you've lost that, you've lost everything.
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Old 24th June 2003, 20:00   #69
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It goes something like this..... shall I get it free or pay for it, free or pay for it, free or pay for it, free or pay for it, free or pay for it, free or pay for it............

Sod it, I'll have it for FREE!!!

And spend the cash on that X-box game.

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Old 24th June 2003, 20:05   #70
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I know, if I don't stop downloading I'll end-up on the FBI's most wanted list. Ah well, at least I've got the x-box game.

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Old 24th June 2003, 21:24   #71
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Hmm, I can steal the car, buy it, steal it, buy it, steal it, buy it.

Fuck it, I'll steal it!

and spend the cash on someone else.


Freedom of speech is the basic freedom of humanity. When you've lost that, you've lost everything.
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Old 25th June 2003, 05:52   #72
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Quote:
Originally posted by xzxzzx
Hmm, I can steal the car, buy it, steal it, buy it, steal it, buy it.
Well, if you could download cars I'd have a few. Just to see if I like 'em before buying of course

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Old 25th June 2003, 11:39   #73
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It is a complete bunch of bollocks if you ask me guys. Why sales are so badly (and i mean badly) slacking, is due to the fact the music being so fucking shite these days!



That is why, not this shit with file sharing. In any cases file sharing keeps the sales at a steady level. Most people who download go buy the CD to

1) support the artist

2) because they like to have the proper CD and covers etc


The rest is all shit bout the file sharing

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Old 25th June 2003, 15:26   #74
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ok. if filesharing is stealing, i think everyone i know is a thief. i think the problem has spread beyond anyone's control. unless drastic measures are taken to make sure that no one would even dare to download, i don't see an end to filesharing in sight. (they would have to be DRASTIC measures too. we're talking about millions of people here) thank goodness too. i SO love stealing good music from money grubbing artists. to hell with the music industry. you only live once, and i want my freaking mp3s. is it wrong to think this way? maybe. but do you think i care? (along with every like minded person in the world)
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Old 25th June 2003, 17:07   #75
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there wouldnt be enough jails around to hold everyone

hehehehe


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Old 25th June 2003, 17:10   #76
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Quote:
Originally posted by Citronic
there wouldnt be enough jails around to hold everyone

hehehehe
I heard the RIAA had purchased a mile-square site on Cuba.

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Old 25th June 2003, 17:51   #77
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that is funny,

i wonder if they would provide a computer and the internet to all the cell mates???


hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm


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Old 25th June 2003, 19:09   #78
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Quote:
Originally posted by knowmadic
ok. if filesharing is stealing, i think everyone i know is a thief. i think the problem has spread beyond anyone's control. unless drastic measures are taken to make sure that no one would even dare to download, i don't see an end to filesharing in sight. (they would have to be DRASTIC measures too. we're talking about millions of people here) thank goodness too. i SO love stealing good music from money grubbing artists. to hell with the music industry. you only live once, and i want my freaking mp3s. is it wrong to think this way? maybe. but do you think i care? (along with every like minded person in the world)
And this is why there's a problem with it. "Money grubbing artists". Yeah, right. Do you have any idea how hard it is to make money before you get *big*? This is, of course, partially the record company's fault, but regardless, one should not punish the artist for the record companies mistakes. What one should do is try to get laws passed to get fair treatment of artists.

I've realized the world is a cesspool of ignorant fucks who don't give a shit about anyone else, and pay for things only when absolutely required.

It's sickening.

I'm finding myself wanting to support DRM, and the DMCA (how ironic), and let's force computer manufacturers to put chips that fucking force the assholes of the world like YOU to pay for some fucking music! And let's raise CD prices to $200! That way, you're fucked, the artists are fucked, and the record companies have to pay 198.50 in taxes per CD so that the government can ensure that every computer has mandatory DRM! AND EVERYONE IS FUCKED, BECAUSE ALL THE STUPID FUCKS LIKE YOU CAN'T SHELL OUT FIFTEEN FUCKING DOLLARS FOR A FUCKING CD!

Freedom of speech is the basic freedom of humanity. When you've lost that, you've lost everything.
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Old 25th June 2003, 20:01   #79
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That's OK... most of the artists whose songs I download (if not all) are already multi-millionaires.

The world is made of conflicts: good and evil, order and chaos, light and dark, hot and cold. All are essential to life. None can prevail for any length of time, or life will fail. In the end, the best any can hope for is balance.
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Old 25th June 2003, 20:14   #80
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You're missing the point completely.

There would be no reason to have DRM if people wouldn't be so god damn eager to take for free instead of give a proper exchange.

Also, whether the person has 10 billion or 5 dollars in his bank account, it doesn't change that you shouldn't steal. Why can't you see that? Or are you trying to convince yourself otherwise?

Freedom of speech is the basic freedom of humanity. When you've lost that, you've lost everything.
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