Old 29th September 2003, 21:03   #41
marvinbarcelona
Major Dude
 
marvinbarcelona's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: m/cr, UK
Posts: 1,143
Ah, but there is something you can do about. Hold them responsible and keep at them until they cave in. This worked rather well with Thatcher and the Poll-Tax, farmers/drivers and fuel blockades etc.

Too many people believe that when they have dropped their ballot slip into the box thats it for another four years. This is what the politions like you to believe....just don't accept it. Politions live in fear of their lies being exposed.

It won't happen at once, but as the drip-drip of protest keeps growing, so their lies become more and more unsustainable.

Thats democracy.

It's been said that I could start an arguement in an empty room.....I see no reason to disbelieve this.
marvinbarcelona is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29th September 2003, 22:25   #42
whitie6969
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: KC, MO
Posts: 59
Name one president in the last hundred years that hasnt lied!
whitie6969 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29th September 2003, 22:33   #43
UpperKEES
Senior Member
 
UpperKEES's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: the Netherlands Status: hyperactive Posts: yes
Posts: 477
US or world wide?
UpperKEES is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29th September 2003, 22:58   #44
mattyday
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Ursa Minor
Posts: 82
This kind of behaviour is nothing new. I get sick and tired of people thinking this is a new thing. The only new thing is that we get to hear about it these days, due to the Internet, mass media and a tighter global community.

Take virtually any European war, reasons were not even given! It was pure imperialism. The East India Company exploited everyone and everything to make money. As did many German, French, Dutch, Spanish etc monarchies and governments.

During the Second World War, the official policy of the western allies was to ignore the Soviets being slaughtered in spite of them being our allies, because it didn't suit us. Once they'd made progress and we could advance from the west, we were quick to patch up again. The US is not being radical - it's simply being normal in its approach to war. The justifications don't help the layman - but what good is the layman? He will pay his taxes and probably not cause too much civil unrest. Hell, in the United States, he probably won't even vote!

The business, however, can make or break you as a policial party. Unlike the layman, business is important on an international scale and actually matters. The moment people put this in to perspective and realise that in America corporations make government, the better.

For example, you cannot become president in the US without vigorous campaigning. This costs billions of dollars - given by big business. Same with being a Senator or even Congressman. To a lesser extent, this is also true in Britain and Europe (although there is less money and, particularily in Britain, there are tighter laws regulating party donations and campaigning costs).

All this comes back to the fact that this war wasn't faught for people, but for the powerful. Personally, I'm against the war, but there's no point moaning about it in the way we do, because the American media is too weak to produce anything that may be considered anti-american since 9/11 and the world's views are too distorted by irrational hate of nations (be it America, Iraq or Britain).

Just my ten pence (I'm British by the way)

--Matt
mattyday is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29th September 2003, 23:56   #45
sammythemc
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Pennsylvania
Posts: 139
Send a message via AIM to sammythemc
I've heard these arguments a million times. The reasons the US went to war weren't valid, but deposing saddam should be valid a reason enough. Every Iraqi I see interviewed has a positive view of the US, and in recent polls it's been shown that they like the US's presence in the region. (source: http://iranvajahan.net/cgi-bin/news....&m=09&d=10&a=7)
sammythemc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30th September 2003, 16:54   #46
marvinbarcelona
Major Dude
 
marvinbarcelona's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: m/cr, UK
Posts: 1,143
Sorry, but getting rid of a head of state because you don't like him is illegal...utterly ilegal.

Regarding your news source; I'm always dubious when a site doesn't say anything about it's aims or stand point. However, a brief look through it's news items reveals that the site may not be exactly unbiased, I mean, the article you mentioned was written by the editor in chief of The American Enterprise magazine and holder of the J.B. Fuqua chair at the American Enterprise Institute.

But yes, the Iraqi's are so happy the US & UK military are there they are just rushing out and greeting them with flowers....but they are not, are they. You could say that a couple of bombs, a few attacks on the US military is the result of a few die hards, but this is going on an awful long time. Maybe, just maybe, the Iraqi people don't want to have their country occupied. My be they know that when Iraq is nice and quiet, the US corporations will arrive and rape the country of everything of any value.

Are the Iraqi people glad Saddam is gone? Of course they are, it would be ridiculous to suggest otherwise, but the ends does not justify the means.

It's been said that I could start an arguement in an empty room.....I see no reason to disbelieve this.
marvinbarcelona is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30th October 2003, 11:59   #47
webthing
Forum King
 
webthing's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: South Central Pennsylvania USA
Posts: 2,646
U.S. says WMD went from Iraq to Syria


WASHINGTON, Oct. 29 (UPI) -- U.S. intelligence officials Wednesday released an assessment that Iraqi weapons of mass destruction have been transferred to neighboring Syria.

The officials, in the first assessment of its kind, said the transfer occurred during the weeks prior to the U.S.-led war against the Saddam Hussein regime.

Middle East Newsline reported the U.S. assessment was based on satellite images of convoys of Iraqi trucks that poured into Syria during February and March. U.S. intelligence officials say the trucks contained missiles and WMD components banned by the U.N.'s Security Council.

http://interestalert.com/brand/siteia.shtml

Iraqi weapons material may have been moved to Syria: Pentagon official

US warns Syria over terrorism and weapons
webthing is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30th October 2003, 16:21   #48
marvinbarcelona
Major Dude
 
marvinbarcelona's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: m/cr, UK
Posts: 1,143
Hi webthing

You don't think this is all alittle too convieniant? If this was the case and there was evidence to back it up, wouldn't it be all over the media? Murdoch and his media would be trumpeting it everywhere?

A quote from one of the articles;

"Clapper, a former director of the Defense Intelligence Agency, acknowledged that there were limits to what overhead surveillance can detect inside trucks.

"But certainly, inferentially, the obvious conclusion one draws is that the certain uptick in traffic ... may have been people leaving the scene, fleeing Iraq, and unquestionably, I am sure, material," he said."

In other words, it was probably folk getting the hell out of the way of bombs and the fighting.

The last article was the one that did disturb me. The US goverment seems to be readying for another attack on a country that hasn't attacked it. This time, I believe, the US goverment will on its own. Certainly the British people will not stand for this again.

It's been said that I could start an arguement in an empty room.....I see no reason to disbelieve this.
marvinbarcelona is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30th October 2003, 22:50   #49
Futile
Member
 
Futile's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: California
Posts: 51
Send a message via AIM to Futile
If the Iraqi war was for the oil why did we not take any back in 1990 when we were left in virtual custody of it while the Kuwait government was recovering?

If the Iraqi war was for humanitarian aid why did we not help them when they were being gassed, 10 years ago?

If the Iraqi war was to install a puppet government why are we stressing a self-sufficient government so much?

The Iraqi war was to Overthrow Sadaam and find weapons of mass destruction to justify it. I hate when Bush is saying how we "helped the people of Iraq." Sure we helped them but that is not the reason we went over there. We did not give a shit about them before. If it were not for 9/11 the Taliban would still be supporting the raping and other atrocities of women. The worst thing is I bet we would not even care.

P.S. The UN is a Joke, if they led the war I bet Iraq would be in a far worse state.
Futile is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 31st October 2003, 12:10   #50
marvinbarcelona
Major Dude
 
marvinbarcelona's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: m/cr, UK
Posts: 1,143
While I agree that the UN has not solved any conflicts around the world by the imposition of UN troops, I wouldn't describe it as a joke. It has done some excellant humanitarian work in its time and continues to do so.

It's main purpose, in my opinion, is as a mediator or an arbitor between states. Which I think it does do well. However, it vannot do anything if the most powerful countries ignore it. How would you all feel if the UN formed it's own standing army? I can image the screams of protest! That is the only way the UN can force a desicion through. So, it's unsurprising that the UN has failed to solve any conflicts with troops.

Don't blame the UN, blame the countries who started these conflicts.

It's been said that I could start an arguement in an empty room.....I see no reason to disbelieve this.
marvinbarcelona is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 1st November 2003, 19:16   #51
horse-fly
Account Closed
 
horse-fly's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2001
Posts: 2,360
Quote:
Name one president in the last hundred years that hasnt lied!
well they couldn't get bill clinton on that one
horse-fly is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 6th November 2003, 05:34   #52
13373571
Member
 
13373571's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 93
you're just angry because you don't get to liberate foreign countries because your government is full of wimps.
13373571 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 6th November 2003, 06:56   #53
zootm
Forum King
 
zootm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: the nether reaches of bonnie scotland
Posts: 13,375
You're just trying to justify yourself by denying dissenting voices outright.

zootm is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 6th November 2003, 20:23   #54
13373571
Member
 
13373571's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 93
you're just avoiding the facts by using all those big words. it's unscrupulatory.
13373571 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 6th November 2003, 20:50   #55
killswitch1968
Senior Member
 
killswitch1968's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Sverige
Posts: 434
I also think using the excuse of WMDs was a mistake. Either be honest, or get some international support to oust Saddam.

But that's all said and done. Now the question comes what is to be done now? I strongly feel if the US packs up and heads home Iraq will fall under tyranny again.

They say if you play a Microsoft CD backwards you hear satanic messages. That's nothing, if you play it forwards it installs Windows.
killswitch1968 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 9th November 2003, 17:52   #56
DrKillPatient
Member
 
DrKillPatient's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 84
Fellow americans, it's amazing how easy it is to read our hearts and minds .

Quote:
They didn't break with Saddam because they suddenly realised what an evil person he was, no, they broke with Saddam because he was no longer any use to them.
Quote:
4)Outright racism.
Quote:
or bomb anything that doesn't remind them of the way it is back home.
With powers of telepathy like that you guys should open up a Vegas act or something. How good is your fortune telling? Could you look into the future and tell us which nations to support or which to oppose in order to create a peaceful stable world? Oh yeah and post the next winning lotto numbers.

Your view of American politics is purely paranoid and your opinion of our motivations are insulting. We americans will never support an empire. Our record speaks for itself. We rebuilt Japan and much of Europe into sovereign nations. We've asked Puerto Rico to join the union more than once(It's a territory).

Is your point that America made a mistake? Then the answer is yes we are capable of mistakes. What a revelation.

Here's the bottom line on the WMD thing. Saddam used them. That implies he had them at one time. The only thing he ever had to do to keep power was invite some inspectors to a parking lot and let them watch a few barrels being destroyed. There has to be more to it than "Bush lied about WMD's".

Don't forget about the mobile lab and the unusully large numbers of casteroil factories.
DrKillPatient is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 9th November 2003, 19:40   #57
marvinbarcelona
Major Dude
 
marvinbarcelona's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: m/cr, UK
Posts: 1,143
DrKillPatient : This may come as shock to some Americans, but Europe was full off sovereign nations before anyone knew the American continent existed, might try remembering that.

The US certainly will not support any empires...unless it is their own, of course, and yes your record does speak for its self; the US has an appalling record over-throwing democratically elected goverments in Central & South America and supporting some of the most horrendous dictators known.

Saddam certainly did use WMD on his own people, no one doubts that, but who sold them to him, knowing what he would do with them? Invite inspectors in to stop the war? Your media has probably buried this item, but Saddam offered to hold democratic elections (I know, I know) and allow US Military weapons inspectors in to look for WMDs...Bush refused the offer, didn't even think about....Bush wanted his war.

The mobile lab: even your own goverment has admitted it was no such thing. Casteroil factories???? Yeah, anyone with casteroil is obviously making WMDs.

The US goverment has had to cancel all the contracts for Haliburton to re-build Iraq becuase they were closed bids, ie, no one else was allowed to bid......Cheney has long years of connections with this company. The US is trying to sell goverment companys to the highest bidder....this is utterly illegal in every sense of the word, but your media might not be telling you about this.

Now, heres the bottom line : this war was done for profit, power and to get Dubbya re-elected, nothing else. No, I am not paranoid about US politics, I subject British politics to the same scrutiny as I do US politics. The difference is I don't get vilified in my country for doing so. My country welcomes opposing views. I may face counter arguements and even heated debate, but I don't get the FBI kicking my door in when I express these views.

You are niave if you think the US goverment and the US rich are not as corrupt and viciouse as the rest of the worlds. The rich and powerful in the US don't give a monkeys toss about you or your family, they will use you to grab more money and power...just like the rich and powerful in my country...difference is, I know what they're up to and you don't.

It's been said that I could start an arguement in an empty room.....I see no reason to disbelieve this.
marvinbarcelona is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10th November 2003, 03:33   #58
DrKillPatient
Member
 
DrKillPatient's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 84
Quote:
Saddam certainly did use WMD on his own people, no one doubts that, but who sold them to him, knowing what he would do with them?
knowing what he would do with them? There you go again with the telepathy thing.

Quote:
I may face counter arguements and even heated debate, but I don't get the FBI kicking my door in when I express these views.
Fuck Bush...
Hmmm, no FBI yet. Did you say something along the lines of "I'm not paranoid"?

From your posts I can tell you see America as the focus of corruption, elitism, and class struggle. I could post to the contrary but then you'll just rebut with your assumptions of our evil intentions. (I know a little telepathy too) I'll just say that you misundertand us.
DrKillPatient is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10th November 2003, 07:46   #59
marvinbarcelona
Major Dude
 
marvinbarcelona's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: m/cr, UK
Posts: 1,143
I don't see the US as 'the focus of curruption' etc, its just that the US is the leading power in the world at the moment and so sets the political pace, this is perfectly normal. I wouldn't rebute your posts with assumptions of the US goverments evil intentions, merely what has happened and what I believe may happen. As I pointed out in my post, I subject the UK goverment to the same scrutiney as I put the US to. Because you disagree, dosen't make certain things untrue.

As for not knowing what Saddam would do with WMD that were sold to him...come on, please! What did they think he wanted them for? It's not telepathy, merely common sense. If I worked in a chemists and and someone who was known to be suicidal came in and asked for 500 sleeping pills...would I be telepathic if I declined to sell them to him, or just exhibiting common-sense? You don't sell brutal dictators more efficent weapons...oh, wait, the US & UK do that all the time and are still doing it.

Regarding the FBI : read this article, there are others, but this was the first I found : FBI

It's been said that I could start an arguement in an empty room.....I see no reason to disbelieve this.
marvinbarcelona is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11th November 2003, 06:14   #60
Futile
Member
 
Futile's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: California
Posts: 51
Send a message via AIM to Futile
Name one TV station that has a Right bias besides FOX.
The majority of the newspapers in America are very liberal, the New York Times and LA Times are EXTREMELY biased. The LA Times said that Arnold was a Nazi and used a tape as their source. Every single person who helped make that tape said it was taken out of context and they presented the original.
Radio is Right Wing but it is not like people are not allowing the lefties from going on the radio. They choose not too for some reason.


Do not give me that media crap, watch CNN, watch CBS news, and watch NBC. Tell me they would not jump on the chance to make Bush look like a fool.
Futile is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11th November 2003, 07:50   #61
marvinbarcelona
Major Dude
 
marvinbarcelona's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: m/cr, UK
Posts: 1,143
I'm sorry, but in Europe we are getting quite a few stories that don't seem to have been reported in the US. These stories involve the war in Iraq and the Bush presidency.

The media coverage in the US during the Iraq war offered very, very little in the way of analysis of the situation as to the merits of the war or the political tactics involved. The coverage of the UN was very one sided..eg..UN/Europe bad, US good. When news reports were running, they were under the banner of "Operation Restore Freedom" or some such thing. This is not unbiased in anyway.

What perhaps you have missed is that it didn't seem biased to you, because you largely agreed with what was being said. It would be interesting to see how many stories haven't been reported in the US or have only been reported after they had been in the European press for weeks.

Of course all media is biased to a certain extent, but the trick is to try and give a balanced report. In the Europe this was largely achieved. An analysis of the UK coverage has just been released revealed that the UK media was fairly well balanced on the Iraq War, the same could not be said of the US media unfortunately.

I do find it strange that, to an outsider, the US media appears very rightwing, yet people from the rightwing of American politics see it as liberal or not right wing enough.

It's been said that I could start an arguement in an empty room.....I see no reason to disbelieve this.
marvinbarcelona is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17th November 2003, 02:16   #62
Cyber-Surfer
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 2
Quote:
Originally posted by marvinbarcelona
While I agree that the UN has not solved any conflicts around the world by the imposition of UN troops, I wouldn't describe it as a joke. It has done some excellant humanitarian work in its time and continues to do so.

It's main purpose, in my opinion, is as a mediator or an arbitor between states. Which I think it does do well. However, it vannot do anything if the most powerful countries ignore it. How would you all feel if the UN formed it's own standing army? I can image the screams of protest! That is the only way the UN can force a desicion through. So, it's unsurprising that the UN has failed to solve any conflicts with troops.

Don't blame the UN, blame the countries who started these conflicts.
I'm sorry.. but I had to step in here a moment...

UN IS a joke... with a not very funny punchline.. After all.. only the UN would allow cuba to chair the human rights committee.. A country that repeatedly is called on it's many human rights violations by many 3rd party human rights groups.

Oh.. And let's not forget the great contribution to the health and welfare of the Iraq population during the first Gulf War.. the cease fire with Saddam Hussen.. The one that "ended" the coalitions conflict in Iraq during the first gulf war, right about the time the Iraq people, based on coalition assurances of support, decided to rise up against Saddam, and were slaughtered for their efforts... Gee Great track record there.. might explain why there's no "Welcome Back" parties in Iraq right now...

I think personally, I like Robin Williams idea:

Quote:
Robin Williams' plan...(Hard to argue with this logic!)
I see a lot of people yelling for peace but I have not heard of a plan
for peace. So, here's one plan:

1) The US will apologize to the world for our "interference" in their affairs, past & present. We will promise never to "interfere" again.

2) We will withdraw our troops from all over the world, starting with
Germany, South Korea and the Philippines. They don't want us there. We would station troops at our borders. No more sneaking through holes in the fence.

3) All illegal aliens have 90 days to get their affairs together and
leave. We'll give them a free trip home. After 90 days the remainder
will be gathered up and deported immediately,regardless of who or where they are. France would welcome them.

4) All future visitors will be thoroughly checked and limited to 90 day visits unless given a special permit. No one from a terrorist nation would be allowed in. If you don't like it there, change it yourself. Don't hide here. Asylum would not ever be available to anyone. We don't need any more cab drivers.

5) No "students" over age 21. The older ones are the bombers. If they don't attend classes, they get a "D" and it's back home, baby.

6) The US will make a strong effort to become self sufficient energy wise. This will include developing non polluting sources of energy but
will require a temporary drilling of oil in the Alaskan wilderness. The caribou will have to cope for a while.

7) Offer Saudi Arabia and other oil producing countries $10 a barrel for their oil. If they don't like it, we go someplace else.

8) If there is a famine or other natural catastrophe in the world, we
will not "interfere". They can pray to Allah or whomever, for seeds, rain, cement or whatever they need. Besides, most of what we give them gets "lost" or is taken by their army. The people who need it most get very little, anyway.

9) Ship the UN Headquarters to an island some place. We don't need the spies and fair weather friends here. Besides, it would make a good homeless shelter or lockup for illegal aliens.

10) Use the buildings as replacement for the twin towers.

11) All Americans must go to charm and beauty school. That way, no one can call us "Ugly Americans" any longer.

12) Now, ain't that a winner of a plan.

13) "The Statue of Liberty is no longer saying 'Give me your poor, your tired, your huddled masses.' She's got a baseball bat and she's yelling,'You want a piece of me?'
Now mind you, I don't like Da Shrub, and his sidekick Asscroft, hell, I still can't understand why Immigration is now part of the Dept. of Homeland Security, and has become draconian in it's policies, it goes against everything this country was founded on. It used to be, you got here, you could stay, we welcomed the world to our shores. The Patriot Act? Bah, might as well call it the Nazi Party Reformation Act. So no I am not a fan of the current administration.

On the same token, I'm also sure those dissenters here in the forum are glad that a scorched earth policy wasn't the response from the US for the 9/11 attack. And make no bones about it, 9/11 was an attack, not just on the US, but on Democracy everywhere, it wasn't just American's who died in the twin towers.

And lest I be called a hypocrit, we are dealing with Iraq, I'm sure N. Korea is on the menu, and some of the other middle east countries will be side-dishes... I think Israel should be desert, after all they're just as guilty as Iraq of violating UN resolutions, and they DO have WMD.. Which if it wasn't for one person who still sits in a israelie prison to this day, we wouldn't know about it.. So when's their turn. And no I have nothing against jewish people, or arab, or korean, or chinese, or anyone. I just think it's about time that if the US is gonna dispense it's idea of justice, we need to be fair about it and spread it out to those who are in violation.

---------------
Cyber-Surfer
USN - Gulf War Veteran
USS Jason AR8
Cyber-Surfer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17th November 2003, 02:28   #63
DrKillPatient
Member
 
DrKillPatient's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 84
/\
||
||

Hahaha, gotta love Robin Williams. I'm for it but then we would called callous or selfish maybe. We'll never win. The world will always hate us.

It's just like the baseball world's hate for the Yankees. They're number one so they must be wicked to the core.
DrKillPatient is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17th November 2003, 03:47   #64
Bizznatch
Forum King
 
Bizznatch's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: San Jose, CA
Posts: 4,173
Send a message via AIM to Bizznatch
My 2¢:

WMD or not, Iraq shouldve been pwned 12 years ago, the first time we went over there.
Bizznatch is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17th November 2003, 15:29   #65
zootm
Forum King
 
zootm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: the nether reaches of bonnie scotland
Posts: 13,375
Quote:
Originally posted by Cyber-Surfer
Oh.. And let's not forget the great contribution to the health and welfare of the Iraq population during the first Gulf War.. the cease fire with Saddam Hussen.. The one that "ended" the coalitions conflict in Iraq during the first gulf war, right about the time the Iraq people, based on coalition assurances of support, decided to rise up against Saddam, and were slaughtered for their efforts... Gee Great track record there.. might explain why there's no "Welcome Back" parties in Iraq right now...
and end to hostilities is almost always a noble cause. they were doing what they felt right - and what could not be accurately predicted to be otherwise.

robin williams' ideas are a joke, and although they're funny, they are fairly unimplementable (and quite a few are just plain stupid ).

Quote:
Originally posted by Cyber-Surfer
On the same token, I'm also sure those dissenters here in the forum are glad that a scorched earth policy wasn't the response from the US for the 9/11 attack. And make no bones about it, 9/11 was an attack, not just on the US, but on Democracy everywhere, it wasn't just American's who died in the twin towers.
you can't fight terrorism with a scorched earth policy. there has been little or no measured response (that we, the public, can see) to the 11/9 attacks thus far.

Quote:
Originally posted by Cyber-Surfer
And lest I be called a hypocrit, we are dealing with Iraq, I'm sure N. Korea is on the menu, and some of the other middle east countries will be side-dishes... I think Israel should be desert, after all they're just as guilty as Iraq of violating UN resolutions, and they DO have WMD.. Which if it wasn't for one person who still sits in a israelie prison to this day, we wouldn't know about it.. So when's their turn. And no I have nothing against jewish people, or arab, or korean, or chinese, or anyone. I just think it's about time that if the US is gonna dispense it's idea of justice, we need to be fair about it and spread it out to those who are in violation.
i agree. but the fact is that at the moment, the US's justice isn't handed out on moral grounds. is that even justice?

zootm is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17th November 2003, 17:12   #66
marvinbarcelona
Major Dude
 
marvinbarcelona's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: m/cr, UK
Posts: 1,143
Cyber-surfer, Cuba was indeed asked to chair the UN Commission on Human Rights, maybe as way to point out their poor record? Besides, it would more alarming if the US chaired it. The US's record on human rights is not exactly sparkling, you know. Oh, not so much in the US, but else where in the world.

Regarding the first Gulf War; you will re-call, of course, when Papa Bush called on the Iraqi people to raise and over thrown Saddam, you remember that? You know, when they did raise and Papa Bush went and hide under the bed and allowed the Iraqis to be killed? You must remember that! He promised to help them overthrown him.

The mandate, which the US agreed to quite happily, was for the removal of Iraq from Kuwaite...and nothing more. You may also be interested to note a couple of things;

1. Iraqi and Kuwaite were in border dispute, a dispute that the UN agreed, Iraq was in the right on. Kuwaite refused to adjust its borders.

2. After much pleading for help, one of Saddam's people asked the US if they would have a problem with Iraq invading Kuwaite to gets its land back. The US advised that it had no opinion on the matter.

If the US had used a 'scorched earth' policy, it would have been condemed through out the world. Even Tony Blair would have run for cover. The US didn't decide it wouldn't use this policy out of benevolence, but out of fear of the consquences.

Other countries have nuclear weapons. Has the US policy in Iraq made it more or less likely that other countries will try and obtain these weapons? Lets be honest here, if you were a dictator, you'd running around trying to lay your hands on one...the US dosen't attack countries that have the capibility of fighting back.

As I've said before, of course the Iraqi population are glad Saddam's gone... they're not insane! However, they don't like having their country occupied...would you? By the way, all those plans to sell of state owned Iraqi companies? Utterly, utterly illegal.

But you are correct, to dictate that one country can have WMD's while others can't is hypocracy. First, disable Israel of it's nuclear weapons, then start on the rest...not by force of arms, that just won't work.

PS - the Robin Williams thing? It was a joke, satire, ironic etc, etc.

It's been said that I could start an arguement in an empty room.....I see no reason to disbelieve this.
marvinbarcelona is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17th November 2003, 21:26   #67
ertmann|CPH
Forum Viking
(Forum King)
 
ertmann|CPH's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: The North
Posts: 3,541
maybe this is a bit offtopic, but have you americans wondered if there might be a reason people are feeling as they do about your country, i mean if a survey within the European Union shows that us 'liberals' on the other side of the atlantic consider america the 2nd most dangerous country in the world, after N Korea, and before Iran....

I mean the standard of living is as hight in the EU, as it is in the states, so it's not like we are jealous of your way of life, we're open democracies, so we are not jealous about your freedom, we have the same religion - so it's not that eather..... what could it be? arrogance maybe?
ertmann|CPH is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17th November 2003, 22:43   #68
DrKillPatient
Member
 
DrKillPatient's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 84
IS the question is what may some be jealous of?

Power! Economic, diplomatic, military, and media power.
DrKillPatient is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18th November 2003, 04:34   #69
ertmann|CPH
Forum Viking
(Forum King)
 
ertmann|CPH's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: The North
Posts: 3,541
ok, ill let you stay on your illusions....
ertmann|CPH is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18th November 2003, 04:44   #70
tor528
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 11
How come any time we talk about Iraq, Saddam, or the war, the subject of the 911 attacks always comes up? They are not related. Some people just can't figure it out, especially dubya.
tor528 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18th November 2003, 06:06   #71
marvinbarcelona
Major Dude
 
marvinbarcelona's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: m/cr, UK
Posts: 1,143
DrKillPatient, the US spends billions and billions on arms and bombs, we Europeans have this perculiar habit of thinking that its probably best to spend that money on our citizens. Odd I know, but there you go.

It's been said that I could start an arguement in an empty room.....I see no reason to disbelieve this.
marvinbarcelona is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18th November 2003, 16:22   #72
DrKillPatient
Member
 
DrKillPatient's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 84
Why should Europeans spend all that money on defense when America has all but declared itself defender of the west?

I could save a lot of money by not buying health insurance but if something ever happened to me it would be worth every penny and more. An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.

Oops sorry let me convert from EE to SI for my overseas friends:
28.3495231 grams of prevention is worth 0.4535924 kilograms of cure.
DrKillPatient is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18th November 2003, 19:32   #73
marvinbarcelona
Major Dude
 
marvinbarcelona's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: m/cr, UK
Posts: 1,143
Well, if the people in the US are daft enough to let their politicians con them into believing spending that kind of money on bombs etc is good thing, fine, we Europeans will try and spend our money better.

By the way, as the US military budget makes up half the entire worlds arms budget, thats some ounce of prevention you got there. I would even suggest...overkill?

It's been said that I could start an arguement in an empty room.....I see no reason to disbelieve this.
marvinbarcelona is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19th November 2003, 01:05   #74
DrKillPatient
Member
 
DrKillPatient's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 84
We have a mandate that America should be able to fight two major wars at once, and yes that is a very tall order.

Actually our military has recently gone through a series of base closures. I think another round of base closures is scheduled for 2008.

btw,
Quote:
ok, ill let you stay on your illusions....
Quote:
if the people in the US are daft enough to let their politicians con them into believing spending that kind of money on bombs etc is good thing, fine
getting a little uppety are we? Everything I've posted here is debatable but not unreasonable. Maybe debate and reason are lost on people who have so given themselves to assumption. We are all wrong about something. "We" includes you too.
DrKillPatient is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19th November 2003, 04:50   #75
ertmann|CPH
Forum Viking
(Forum King)
 
ertmann|CPH's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: The North
Posts: 3,541
well, the whole idea of my post was to get (someone) thinking that.... maybe it's not jealousy, maybe they actually have a perfectly sound reason for thinking the way they do?

apparently it didn't catch on...

btw media power? News Corporation (fox etc.) is owned by brits and aussies, Vivendi/Universal is owned by the french.... what american media power?

Military power? I wonder why Washington is againt a European Defence Charter, within the framework of the EU.... hoop no monopoly on military power anymore!.
BTW EU defence spending (if you count in the members joining next year) matches that of the US. There is just one major thing missing in an European Defence Force - mobility, the sole reason the EU cannot conduct military operations themselves.

Economic, i can't argue against that one.... but do you really think that the reason 40% of europeans (including the new members) are strongly against the US foreign policy, is because they are jealous of the US being a econmic powerhouse?
ertmann|CPH is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19th November 2003, 05:09   #76
marvinbarcelona
Major Dude
 
marvinbarcelona's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: m/cr, UK
Posts: 1,143
Quote : "getting a little uppety are we? Everything I've posted here is debatable but not unreasonable. Maybe debate and reason are lost on people who have so given themselves to assumption. We are all wrong about something. "We" includes you too"

A little uppety? Love that. We don't fall on our faces in praise of the US and we're...uppety? Gee, sorry for not worshipping the US.

The point I was making was that you could spend your tax dollars alot better than on a bloated military budget that has no basis in reality, come on...half the worlds military budget??? Who are you afraid of? Godzilla?? You have, what was it, 40 million of your fellow citizens with no health cover? Yet you allow your politicians to spend billions on weapons.

Once again, I think we Europeans spend out tax money better....could be even better, but still pretty good.

It's been said that I could start an arguement in an empty room.....I see no reason to disbelieve this.
marvinbarcelona is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19th November 2003, 14:59   #77
Fickle
Butterknife of Justice
(Forum King)
 
Fickle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Behind you.
Posts: 5,502
We should all get drunk and avoid talking about politics. It would oh so lighten the dark brooding mood.

Go read a book without pictures
pabook? | Look, a blog! | Buy Stuff I Wrote
Fickle is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19th November 2003, 15:47   #78
marvinbarcelona
Major Dude
 
marvinbarcelona's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: m/cr, UK
Posts: 1,143
Debating politics etc can be fun, interesting and informative, if done without abuse and rudeness. However, sometimes folk cross the mark...I've been guilty of this...but if folk realise and apologise, then I don't see the problem.

It's been said that I could start an arguement in an empty room.....I see no reason to disbelieve this.
marvinbarcelona is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19th November 2003, 20:50   #79
DrKillPatient
Member
 
DrKillPatient's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 84
Quote:
I've been guilty of this...
very true.

Quote:
Well, if the people in the US are daft enough to let their politicians con them into believing spending that kind of money on bombs etc is good thing, fine
A very rude implication, so I suggested that debate and reason is lost on bigots. If the shoe fits wear it.

Quote:
maybe they actually have a perfectly sound reason for thinking the way they do?
Now YOU'RE catching on. You're the one who accused me of delusion.

Well that just might send this thread on a downward spiral. I'll try hard to digress.

Media power: Ertmann you never included books, movies, and music. As a whole who do you really think exports more culture? Not to your nation but the world as a whole. Bleh! Hollywood and musicians only export the bad parts of our culture.

Military power: EU as a whole would be great military power but I'll leave it to military experts to decide which would be grander.

I never asked for worship Marvin. I've been very humble. Here's a me quote: Is your point that America made a mistake? Then the answer is yes we are capable of mistakes. What a revelation. But if you ever felt the urge to fall on your face and praise Washington I won't stop you.
You keep insisting that America is a nation of ignoramuses run by evil Bush consorts. I'll make you a bet. If ten years from now Iraq is nothing but an oil colony for the US I'll piss on a flag. If America does right by Iraq you have to eat that pipe.

As for the military budget thing. OK I'll give you that one. It's extravagant. But it's not totally wasted either. It helps drive our economy and if ever needed on that kind of scale it will pay off in spades. Social health care is a whole other topic. I'm sure UK has it's share of have-nots so don't try to distract.
DrKillPatient is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19th November 2003, 21:46   #80
marvinbarcelona
Major Dude
 
marvinbarcelona's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: m/cr, UK
Posts: 1,143
DrKillPatient, never have I called Americans "ignoramuses" or the like. I did state that if your daft enought to allow the kind of spending that goes on with your military, then fine. Maybe "daft" have has a differnt meaning in the US? In the UK its a very mild rebuke, more akin to having your leg pulled a bit, thats all.

"A little uppety? Love that. We don't fall on our faces in praise of the US and we're...uppety? Gee, sorry for not worshipping the US."...merely a mild legpull in responce to be called "uppety" by you,
which I found patronising, but tried not to make a big thing out it.

Regarding Iraq and being an oil colony. Not saying it will be a US oil colony, but I am saying that some of the things that the US is doing in Iraq, is certainly illegal under international law. Many people are saying what I have been saying for quite awhile....there is a very real possibly that Iraq will slide into civil war...whose fault and problem will that be....Europe's? The UN's?....or your goverments? Whose paying for the friends of Bush to get richer? You and the Iraqi people are. A war started for profit, continued for profit and the country invaded now being sold to the highest bidder. Never, has a country, quite literally, been sold lock, stock and barrel.

It's been said that I could start an arguement in an empty room.....I see no reason to disbelieve this.
marvinbarcelona is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply
Go Back   Winamp & Shoutcast Forums > Community Center > Breaking News

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump