Old 10th December 2003, 01:12   #121
teknoeacid
Junior Member
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 17
Send a message via AIM to teknoeacid
Quote:
Originally posted by xzxzzx
Potato: Your facts are incorrect.
For example, 512 bit public key cryptography is not very strong at all.
And for many other reasons already discussed in other, more on-topic threads, TCPA will never take hold.
Agreed Agreed, Actually, even 128 bit is strong.
teknoeacid is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10th December 2003, 01:59   #122
zetafunction
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 99
You need to understand that you are comparing key sizes for two different types of encryption--symmetric and asymmetric (also known as public-key encryption). Currently, 128-bits is considered "secure enough" for symmetric encryption schemes, such as IDEA and CAST. However, 256 bits is preferable for symmetric schemes--AES supports keysizes up to 256 bits. It's called symmetric because the same key is used for decryption and encryption. Why is it used? It's quick. Much quicker than public-key cryptosystems.

Public key encryption (RSA, Diffie-Hellman), on the other hand, is a whole different ballpark. 512 bits is not considered that strong of a public keysize. Correct my arithmetic if I'm wrong, but I believe 512 bits is something on the order of 154 digits. In fact, just recently, RSA-512, a sample 512-bit RSA key, was factored by a group of researchers... 1024 bits is more like it, and if you're feeling bored, 4096 bits (it takes a lot longer to generate the key).
zetafunction is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10th December 2003, 02:06   #123
xzxzzx
Forum King
 
xzxzzx's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 7,254
No, 128 secret key encryption is fairly strong, depending on the cryptographic cypher being used.

512 bit secret key encryption would be really strong.

But secret key encryption wouldn't work for this, because it could be hacked, as the secret key would be embedded in the O/S. It would have to be public key encryption, and Microsoft would probably use a 2048+ bit key for it.
[edit] Yeah, that's correct, zeta. [/edit]

Freedom of speech is the basic freedom of humanity. When you've lost that, you've lost everything.
1\/\/4y 34|<$p4y 1gp4y 33714y, 0d4y 0uy4y? | Roses are #FF0000; Violets are #0000FF; chown -R ${YOU} ~/base
The DMCA. It really is that bad. : Count for your life.
xzxzzx is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10th December 2003, 02:21   #124
WhiteRayven
Major Dude
 
WhiteRayven's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 682
That said, some where in the OS is a variable that is set to false until you have activated you product. The hack would only have to change that. That said. if the code itself was encrypted, which I am not sure is possible, you could if_def the crap out of it (or something equivalnt to that) and that would make it more difficult.

Why make something idiot proof?? Someone will only make a better idiot!
WhiteRayven is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10th December 2003, 21:02   #125
Potato
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: US
Posts: 70
First I was really, really tired when I wrote that last post. Hence the rambling. Anyway I was getting my information from the link below. But never fear I will do what I should have done before and refrence the propler material before the end of this post.

Has anyone read ALL of this? I have.

http://www.againsttcpa.com/tcpa-faq-en.html

Quote:
4. How does TC work?

TC provides for a monitoring and reporting component to be mounted in future PCs. The preferred implementation in the first phase of TC emphasised the role of a `Fritz' chip - a smartcard chip or dongle soldered to the motherboard. The current version has five components - the Fritz chip, a `curtained memory' feature in the CPU, a security kernel in the operating system (the `Nexus' in Microsoft language), a security kernel in each TC application (the `NCA' in Microsoft-speak) and a back-end infrastructure of online security servers maintained by hardware and software vendors to tie the whole thing together.

The initial version of TC had Fritz supervising the boot process, so that the PC ended up in a predictable state, with known hardware and software. The current version has Fritz as a passive monitoring component that stores the hash of the machine state on start-up. This hash is computed using details of the hardware (audio card, video card etc) and the software (O/S, drivers, etc). If the machine ends up in the approved state, Fritz will make available to the operating system the cryptographic keys needed to decrypt TC applications and data. If it ends up in the wrong state, the hash will be wrong and Fritz won't release the right key. The machine may still be able to run non-TC apps and access non-TC data, but protected material will be unavailable.

The operating system security kernel (the `Nexus') bridges the gap between the Fritz chip and the application security components (the `NCAs'). It checks that the hardware components are on the TCG approved list, that the software components have been signed, and that none of them has a serial number that has been revoked. If there are significant changes to the PC's configuration, the machine must go online to be re-certified: the operating system manages this. The result is a PC booted into a known state with an approved combination of hardware and software (whose licences have not expired). Finally, the Nexus works together with new `curtained memory' features in the CPU to stop any TC app from reading or writing another TC app's data. These new features are called `Lagrande Technology' (LT) for the Intel CPUs and `TrustZone' for the ARM.

Once the machine is in an approved state, with a TC app loaded and shielded from interference by any other software, Fritz will certify this to third parties. For example, he will do an authentication protocol with Disney to prove that his machine is a suitable recipient of `Snow White'. This will mean certifying that the PC is currently running an authorised application program - MediaPlayer, DisneyPlayer, whatever - with its NCA properly loaded and shielded by curtained memory against debuggers or other tools that could be used to rip the content. The Disney server then sends encrypted data, with a key that Fritz will use to unseal it. Fritz makes the key available only to the authorised application and only so long as the environment remains `trustworthy'. For this purpose, `trustworthy' is defined by the security policy downloaded from a server under the control of the application owner. This means that Disney can decide to release its premium content only to a media player whose author agrees to enforce certain conditions. These might include restrictions on what hardware and software you use, or where in the world you're located. They can involve payment: Disney might insist, for example, that the application collect a dollar every time you view the movie. The application itself can be rented too. The possibilities seem to be limited only by the marketers' imagination.
And this

Quote:
15. Can't TC be broken?

The early versions will be vulnerable to anyone with the tools and patience to crack the hardware (e.g., get clear data on the bus between the CPU and the Fritz chip). However, in a few years, the Fritz chip may disappear inside the main processor - let's call it the `Hexium' - and things will get a lot harder. Really serious, well funded opponents will still be able to crack it. But it's likely to go on getting more difficult and expensive.

Also, in many countries, cracking Fritz will be illegal. In the USA the Digital Millennium Copyright Act already does this, while in the EU we will have to deal with the EU Copyright Directive and (if it passes) the draft enforcement directive. (In some countries, the implementation of the Copyright Directive already makes cryptography research technically illegal.)

Also, in many products, compatibility control is already being mixed quite deliberately with copyright control. The Sony Playstation's authentication chips also contain the encryption algorithm for DVD, so that reverse engineers can be accused of circumventing a copyright protection mechanism and hounded under the Digital Millennium Copyright Act. The situation is likely to be messy - and that will favour large firms with big legal budgets.
I cant seem to find the bit depth for the encryption they said they were using, I really though it was in that article, but it must have been in another. I will find it, and I will be posting it here

http://forums.winamp.com/showthread....hreadid=125331

Sorry, I know this post is off topic, but since you guys broke out on me like that, I felt I had no choice.
Potato is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10th December 2003, 21:07   #126
xzxzzx
Forum King
 
xzxzzx's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 7,254
I'd like to see how they would pull that off, considering the O/S maintains process control, not the CPU...

Freedom of speech is the basic freedom of humanity. When you've lost that, you've lost everything.
1\/\/4y 34|<$p4y 1gp4y 33714y, 0d4y 0uy4y? | Roses are #FF0000; Violets are #0000FF; chown -R ${YOU} ~/base
The DMCA. It really is that bad. : Count for your life.
xzxzzx is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10th December 2003, 22:49   #127
zetafunction
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 99
Quote:
Originally posted by xzxzzx
I'd like to see how they would pull that off, considering the O/S maintains process control, not the CPU...
You could just make it so that the processor itself checks the signature on the code that it runs--and make it refuse to run the code if it's unsigned or the signature is incorrect. Because it would be done in hardware, cracking it would be made much more difficult.
zetafunction is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10th December 2003, 23:31   #128
zootm
Forum King
 
zootm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: the nether reaches of bonnie scotland
Posts: 13,375
on the other hand, once it was cracked, it could not be effectively updated (anything that could be updated could be user-updated, effectively making it software).

zootm is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10th December 2003, 23:52   #129
xzxzzx
Forum King
 
xzxzzx's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 7,254
Quote:
Originally posted by zetafunction
You could just make it so that the processor itself checks the signature on the code that it runs--and make it refuse to run the code if it's unsigned or the signature is incorrect. Because it would be done in hardware, cracking it would be made much more difficult.
Yeah, but the processor doesn't see all the code at once. So what, you'd have a 2048-bit key for each 128K of instructions? That would mean you could only run 5 processes at a time if the CPU had 512 K of cache.

Plus, how would you deal with the fact that data and instrutions are basically the same thing to a CPU?

Freedom of speech is the basic freedom of humanity. When you've lost that, you've lost everything.
1\/\/4y 34|<$p4y 1gp4y 33714y, 0d4y 0uy4y? | Roses are #FF0000; Violets are #0000FF; chown -R ${YOU} ~/base
The DMCA. It really is that bad. : Count for your life.
xzxzzx is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11th December 2003, 00:07   #130
blaksaga
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Omaha, NE
Posts: 19
Send a message via AIM to blaksaga Send a message via Yahoo to blaksaga
First off I cannot even see how the fact that linux is 'overall' better than windows can be made in to a debate. For me, linux is hands down better (in my opinion) as both a server and a desktop OS. People who say linux is in its infancy or that it is not ready for the desktop have definately not spent enough time with it and are completely ignorant of where linux stands as an OS.

I used to use Windows...all varieties...over the past 8 years including good ole msdos back in the day. And I was using windows xp up until about 5 months ago. Then I switched to gentoo linux...how beautiful. From what I've seen linux does almost everything better than windows. I still switch back into xp now and then to do work for class and am always flabbergasted as to how I put up with it for so many years. Not only is it ugly, but it is slow and unstable. I cannot run xp under a heavy load for more than 2 hours without a crash. I have been running linux for one month straight without a reboot or crash and am sure it could go a LOT longer. Unfortunately I have to boot back into xp tonight to run maple.

As far as foghorn, I have not used it. But, I have heard enough about it to make me not want to use it. Woohoo...a new filesystem[sarcasm]...I can choose between several filesystems in linux and even mount windows fat32 and ntfs filesystems. And from what I hear foghorn is going to be big and bulky and all-in-one...and like xp, probably won't let you change/uninstall most components.

OMG don't get me started with IE either. Mozilla is a MUCH MUCH better all-around browser/email-client/etc. And then you also have opera and firebird depending on your tastes which I find are ALL better than IE in terms of usability, functionality, security, etc. IE has some serious layering problems and is void of all standards as far as javascript, html, etc etc etc. I'm not even going to get into IE's horrible security issues or how _when_ it crashes it can take out the whole OS.

Now back to linux as a desktop OS. As I said I have been using it for months now. I do everything that I did in windows with it...programming, cd burning, video/audio encoding, web browsing, 3d modeling/image editing, building my website, etc. Now that I have gotten used to it I find it easier to use than windows (once it is set up) and have never had to worry about spyware, virii, crashes, or annoying popup ads. Everything that I dislike about computers/internet when using windows has gone away with linux. People who claim linux is not yet ready for the desktop have not given it a try AS A DESKTOP OS. So much cleaner, so much more secure, a hell of a lot faster, just as easy(if not easier) to use as xp...and with redhat or mandrake installation is about as simple as windows.

I am not really anti-microsoft so I am not writing this in bias. I am also not a fullfledged geek so hacking a kernel or programming for gtk is still way beyond my knowledge.

Oh and one more thing. The linux/'open source' community is the best in the world. Any time I have problems, I hit the gentoo forum and always get an answer within a few hours. If I have a problem with XP???...call tech support, be put on hold for an hour, talk to some tech support guy who is straight out of high school and doesn't know a thing about operating systems beyond changing the theme/colors in windows, and never get the answer I was looking for in the first place.

I'm going to stop now as this is getting long. Bottom line: Don't diss linux or praise windows until you have tried alternatives (day-to-day use...not just installing it and deciding that it sucks because it is 'different').
blaksaga is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11th December 2003, 00:12   #131
Fickle
Butterknife of Justice
(Forum King)
 
Fickle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Behind you.
Posts: 5,502
Upsurd note, not having anything to do with current discussion, but instead addresses the title head-on:

Why the fuck is this in Breaking News? It's old fucking hat.

Everybody knows Windows rules, for the most common reason: compatability. If I have a Linux machine, I have to make sure my sound card, video card, modem, etc are Linux compatable. Not only hardware, but software as well. When they start making games and graphic software Linux compatable across the board, I'll consider buying one. Even then there's the hardware. It's a lot to ask.

Linux might be better, but for now, it's the underdog on almost every front except bloat; Windows is becoming insanely bloated with shit I'll never use, I could probably remove it, but I'd have to enter a secret code and jump through flaming hoops with ripe bananas taped to my groin to actually remove half of them. Or I just stopped caring. Either way, meh.

Go read a book without pictures
pabook? | Look, a blog! | Buy Stuff I Wrote
Fickle is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11th December 2003, 01:25   #132
zetafunction
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 99
Quote:
Originally posted by xzxzzx
Yeah, but the processor doesn't see all the code at once. So what, you'd have a 2048-bit key for each 128K of instructions? That would mean you could only run 5 processes at a time if the CPU had 512 K of cache.

Plus, how would you deal with the fact that data and instrutions are basically the same thing to a CPU?
Where there's a will, there's a way. No one says the CPU has to physically contain the stuff to do code signature verification/checking. It could be contained on a separate chip that can do incremental signature checking or something--just like nowdays the Northbridge and Southbridge of a motherboard do various important things.

Of course, that opens a whole new can of worms...
zetafunction is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11th December 2003, 01:56   #133
zootm
Forum King
 
zootm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: the nether reaches of bonnie scotland
Posts: 13,375
Quote:
Originally posted by blaksaga
Not only is it ugly, but it is slow and unstable. I cannot run xp under a heavy load for more than 2 hours without a crash.
it's neither slow, nor unstable here. on a 2 year-old computer. you most likely have some form of driver problem, which can happen on linux just as easily, trust me. windows, like linux, needs to be upgraded to the newest version to run optimally.

this post is intended to be helpful, rather than for debate.

zootm is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11th December 2003, 03:49   #134
rpxmaster
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Posts: 174
blaksaga, your reply sounds just like my experience with Windoze/Gentoo/Mozilla, even down to the very words of your post. Are you really from Omaha, Nebraska?
rpxmaster is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11th December 2003, 04:14   #135
Potato
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: US
Posts: 70
quote:
Originally posted by blaksaga
I cannot run xp under a heavy load for more than 2 hours without a crash.

Yes. I agree with Zootm, you most definatly have another issue than the XP virus. It sounds like a (what I call) a hard-core hardware conflict, usually one where two pieces of hardware are DEMANDING the same resource. Now, I have run XP for two years, and I can count the number of times on ONE HAND that XP has FATALY crashed on me <-- Truth, and this is comin from a guy whos about to ditch windows for linux (in the next couple of years)

Linux has a better design, by default. I always wondered why windows executed a program by converting to 16bit hex and back again, or whatever whatever (correct me xzxzzx), but the point is that linux is text based, hell yeah its faster.

Problem is. I'm a gamer. Sad, but its about all I use my computer for (A little e-mail n bullshit bullshit). And one of the things I DIDN'T hear you say blaksaga is that you run ALL THE LATEST games on your computer. Furthermore, the last time I installed mandrake 7, I couldnt get my software-based modem to install. Hell I cant PROGRAM my own driver, I barely know how to get a linux box up. And I take back my statement in my other post, I think I did get slackware up, but there was NO GUI. My friend had said you gotta install X. Hell I dont know command line stuff for linux.

You wanna make it to the desktop market, I want auto updates, no user inputed command line routines, click and go all the way. Hell when I ran windows 3.1 or 95, I could literally look in the windows directory and tell you if a file was part of the operating system or if a program had installed it, whether it belonged there or not. now theres over 15,000 files in the XP OS, I cant fool with that. And by the same token I'm not tryin to leard how to write my own drivers for Linux, I wanna download and install THATS IT.

BTW I didn't mean to derail this thread (even though it should BE dead) with the TCPA thing. Also I couldnt find anything about the cypher strength in TCPA, musta been in my imagination
Potato is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11th December 2003, 05:53   #136
blaksaga
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Omaha, NE
Posts: 19
Send a message via AIM to blaksaga Send a message via Yahoo to blaksaga
NOTE: THe following is not a flame. Please do not read it as so. I respect other's opinions and hearby offer my responses in a supposed-to-be non-offensive manner.

Quote:
quote:
Originally posted by blaksaga
I cannot run xp under a heavy load for more than 2 hours without a crash.

Yes. I agree with Zootm, you most definatly have another issue than the XP virus. It sounds like a (what I call) a hard-core hardware conflict, usually one where two pieces of hardware are DEMANDING the same resource.
I don't have cheap/insufficient hardware...Athlon XP 1900+, 512mb DDR, 9600 RPM IBM harddrive, GeForce 4 mx440, etc etc. If I do in fact have a hardware conflict causing problems this would be a windows kernel problem.

The real problem is that the windows kernel is not built to handle a huge load. It is built for average users who just want one or two browser windows open and maybe winamp or something. I constantly burn cd's, play audio/video, ftp, compile source, install apps, etc etc sometimes all at the same time. It's funny that I can do all of this in linux with no problems.

Quote:
And one of the things I DIDN'T hear you say blaksaga is that you run ALL THE LATEST games on your computer.
Ha, no you didn't hear me say that because it would have been a lie. You have a point here...but this point has become so repetitive. The reason why there is few games for linux is because of the small market share. As linux grows so will its collection of games. Enemy territory and quake 3 still kick a$$!

Quote:
Furthermore, the last time I installed mandrake 7, I couldnt get my software-based modem to install. Hell I cant PROGRAM my own driver, I barely know how to get a linux box up. And I take back my statement in my other post, I think I did get slackware up, but there was NO GUI. My friend had said you gotta install X. Hell I dont know command line stuff for linux.
Actually most distros including slackware now install the X and the DE of your choice automatically. At least that's how it worked back when I played around with redhat...and I know mandrake and suse are the same.

As far as your hardware problem...I have not recently heard from anybody who could not use linux because of hw compatibility issues. Most hardware is supported now-a-days...even if you have to use a third party driver. (ie: gimp-print) Unless of course you have microsoft hardware.

Quote:
You wanna make it to the desktop market, I want auto updates, no user inputed command line routines, click and go all the way.
Click and go is overrated. If you actually take the time to learn the command line, it becomes much faster than point and click at most tasks. And there is nothing that you can do with a gui in linux that you can't do with the command line.

However nowadays in linux there is guis to do most everything...so your point here is moot. You want gui's for everything, go download mandrake.

I had to boot to windows just a while ago. Hehe its amazing how crappily slow my fresh install of xp is even when just dragging windows around. Yet on linux everything is smooth and clean and I can have 50 apps running and my music still won't skip like windows.

---

I'm not saying windows is absolute crap...it has its purpose. Many people are happy with windows and it works for them. It all depends on what you do with an O/S and what your preferences are. I prefer linux...you can choose whichever you like...all that I ask is that people do not flame linux before you try it and get familiar with it. (not directed at you potato...directed at all those windows-"roulz" lamers that continually flame message boards about things they know absolutely nothing about)
blaksaga is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11th December 2003, 06:15   #137
xzxzzx
Forum King
 
xzxzzx's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 7,254
Linux is NOT that good, and Windows is NOT that bad.

XP is quite stable. My system has yet to crash running XP, except that time when my motherboard died, which is a funny story, but now's not the time.

Linux has a better design, and if all you were doing is using the O/S, then Linux beats Windows hands-down. However, the sheer number of programs and hardware designed/written for Windows far, far exceeds the same for Linux.

Window's program execution is actually comparable to Linux's, and is based more on the platform (x86) than the O/S. It's just that Windows has huge amounts of bloat, and things programmed for Windows tend to be "bloaty" too.

Who cares about derailing the thread? It was never railed in the first place...

Furthermore, Longhorn's FS is not really a new FS - it's a totally new way of thinking about files, with NTFS as it's base file system (according to Microsoft).

I'll get to the rest of what people said later...

Don't get me wrong. I don't like Windows very much, and I like Linux a lot. Just don't argue incorrect points.

Freedom of speech is the basic freedom of humanity. When you've lost that, you've lost everything.
1\/\/4y 34|<$p4y 1gp4y 33714y, 0d4y 0uy4y? | Roses are #FF0000; Violets are #0000FF; chown -R ${YOU} ~/base
The DMCA. It really is that bad. : Count for your life.
xzxzzx is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11th December 2003, 06:22   #138
Potato
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: US
Posts: 70
Quote:
Originally posted by blaksaga
NOTE:
I don't have cheap/insufficient hardware...Athlon XP 1900+, 512mb DDR, 9600 RPM IBM harddrive, GeForce 4 mx440, etc etc.
No one said you did

Quote:
If I do in fact have a hardware conflict causing problems this would be a windows kernel problem.


not true it would be a driver problem from the hardware manufacturer.

Quote:
The real problem is that the windows kernel is not built to handle a huge load. It is built for average users who just want one or two browser windows open and maybe winamp or something.


not true. the XP kernel is capable of multi word processing, and on a pentium 3 or 4 parallel processing.

Quote:
I constantly burn cd's, play audio/video, ftp, compile source, install apps, etc etc sometimes all at the same time.


dont we all

Quote:
The reason why there is few games for linux is because of the small market share.


no, its because Linux isnt ported for current gaming technology, and games for linux have to be 'modified' to run on a linux platform.

Quote:
Actually most distros including slackware now install the X and the DE of your choice automatically. At least that's how it worked back when I played around with redhat...and I know mandrake and suse are the same.


Not my version of slack (about 3 or 4 years ago)

Quote:
As far as your hardware problem...I have not recently heard from anybody who could not use linux because of hw compatibility issues. Most hardware is supported now-a-days...even if you have to use a third party driver. (ie: gimp-print) Unless of course you have microsoft hardware.


Like I said it was 3 or 4 years ago. To be in ANY business you have to stay up with the time OR stay behind.

Quote:
Click and go is overrated. If you actually take the time to learn the command line, it becomes much faster than point and click at most tasks. And there is nothing that you can do with a gui in linux that you can't do with the command line.


Click and go is overrated? Well my friend you arnt going to make it to the desktop market very well are you? Click and go is where a NOVICE user starts, no one wants to have to crack open a text book to learn how to use a computer, unless your gonna get PAID to do it. Now I started with a Commadore 64, and then to IBM DOS then to DOS 3.0, and so on and so forth, but I'm too old to be beatin my head aginst the keyboard (hell mine cost $74)

Quote:
However nowadays in linux there is guis to do most everything...so your point here is moot. You want gui's for everything, go download mandrake.


Hell yes I want a GUI! My days of... Oh shit See above ^^^^^

Quote:
I had to boot to windows just a while ago. Hehe its amazing how crappily slow my fresh install of xp is even when just dragging windows around. Yet on linux everything is smooth and clean and I can have 50 apps running and my music still won't skip like windows.


I never said windows was BETTER than Linux.

Quote:
I'm not saying windows is absolute crap...it has its purpose.


Yes you are, and you did

Quote:
its amazing how crappily slow my fresh install of xp is even when just dragging windows around.


Quote:
Many people are happy with windows and it works for them. It all depends on what you do with an O/S and what your preferences are.


Yes they are, and will be as long a windows is EASIER than linux. Peoples preference will always be the easy way, its human nature.

Quote:
all that I ask is that people do not flame linux before you try it and get familiar with it.


Never have

Peace
Potato is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11th December 2003, 12:14   #139
Fickle
Butterknife of Justice
(Forum King)
 
Fickle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Behind you.
Posts: 5,502
you're not going to stop people from flaming Linux, there will always be haters out there. I don't understand it and own the only computer in the house, which my family uses just as much as me. Windows for my Family's compatability. If I switched to Linux my Mom would beat me with a rubber mallet.

Go read a book without pictures
pabook? | Look, a blog! | Buy Stuff I Wrote
Fickle is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11th December 2003, 15:24   #140
blaksaga
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Omaha, NE
Posts: 19
Send a message via AIM to blaksaga Send a message via Yahoo to blaksaga
I'm done. I refuse to stoop to the low level of childish flaming which is what seems to happen in forums like these.

I have expressed my _opinions_ and _my_ experiences in a simple, professional manner (see above) and have nothing left to say. I could argue about this forever but don't have the time or patience.

Will an admin please lock this thread and let it die. It is ancient. If you want there are 879659458 million other threads just like this one all over the internet.
blaksaga is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12th December 2003, 15:56   #141
ertmann|CPH
Forum Viking
(Forum King)
 
ertmann|CPH's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: The North
Posts: 3,541
found something interresting today...

i usually run seti at home, yesterday i downloaded the linux version of it...

on my windows XP, avarage time for completing a workunit was 50 hrs 13 mins, with the graphics thing on (dunno, i like it to have it running, ok?)

On Linux, i've completed two workunits, bo th took under 10 hrs to complete.

No Hardware changed.... nothing different but the OS.

weather it's because of better code for the linux version, or because of Linux as a OS, it's very saying i believe...

ah well, just my two cents
ertmann|CPH is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12th December 2003, 16:03   #142
WhiteRayven
Major Dude
 
WhiteRayven's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 682
Hey fickle, have you thought of maybe running a dual boot?
you can have lilo time-out after 10 seconds that way you family can just turn on the computer and wait a couple of seconds for windows to boot, and then when you want linux then you just have to reboot.

Why make something idiot proof?? Someone will only make a better idiot!
WhiteRayven is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12th December 2003, 17:09   #143
xzxzzx
Forum King
 
xzxzzx's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 7,254
Quote:
Originally posted by ertmann|CPH
found something interresting today...

i usually run seti at home, yesterday i downloaded the linux version of it...

on my windows XP, avarage time for completing a workunit was 50 hrs 13 mins, with the graphics thing on (dunno, i like it to have it running, ok?)

On Linux, i've completed two workunits, bo th took under 10 hrs to complete.

No Hardware changed.... nothing different but the OS.

weather it's because of better code for the linux version, or because of Linux as a OS, it's very saying i believe...

ah well, just my two cents
The graphics slow it down a lot. Linux should not be significantly faster with the graphics off in Windows XP, I'd imagine only 2-3%, if that.

Freedom of speech is the basic freedom of humanity. When you've lost that, you've lost everything.
1\/\/4y 34|<$p4y 1gp4y 33714y, 0d4y 0uy4y? | Roses are #FF0000; Violets are #0000FF; chown -R ${YOU} ~/base
The DMCA. It really is that bad. : Count for your life.
xzxzzx is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12th December 2003, 17:42   #144
ertmann|CPH
Forum Viking
(Forum King)
 
ertmann|CPH's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: The North
Posts: 3,541
but i have the graphics turned on in linux aswell
Attached Images
File Type: jpg seti.jpg (90.1 KB, 141 views)
ertmann|CPH is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12th December 2003, 17:51   #145
xzxzzx
Forum King
 
xzxzzx's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 7,254
Well, maybe you're getting easier packets, or there's something wrong with seti@home for Windows. There is no real reason that a Linux-based program like seti@home would be 500% faster than a Windows-based program, assuming the same code for the main engine.

Freedom of speech is the basic freedom of humanity. When you've lost that, you've lost everything.
1\/\/4y 34|<$p4y 1gp4y 33714y, 0d4y 0uy4y? | Roses are #FF0000; Violets are #0000FF; chown -R ${YOU} ~/base
The DMCA. It really is that bad. : Count for your life.
xzxzzx is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12th December 2003, 18:10   #146
Jaak
Major Dude
 
Jaak's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Estonia.
Posts: 851
Ok, now im 100% sure of superiority of linux over windows, any windows

i would install redhat righ away, but winamp avs doesnt run under linux, even if using a wine
DAMMIT!

Phi = (1+sqrt(5))/2
Jaak is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12th December 2003, 18:12   #147
zootm
Forum King
 
zootm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: the nether reaches of bonnie scotland
Posts: 13,375
if you're 100% sure, you're 100% wrong

zootm is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14th December 2003, 04:27   #148
teknoeacid
Junior Member
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 17
Send a message via AIM to teknoeacid
Quote:
I had to boot to windows just a while ago. Hehe its amazing how crappily slow my fresh install of xp is even when just dragging windows around. Yet on linux everything is smooth and clean and I can have 50 apps running and my music still won't skip like windows.
Get you video card manufactures newest driver.
teknoeacid is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14th December 2003, 12:42   #149
Timzone8
Major Dude
 
Timzone8's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Australia
Posts: 569
Send a message via ICQ to Timzone8 Send a message via AIM to Timzone8 Send a message via Yahoo to Timzone8
Firtly, jahaha, my windows bitch thread had more replies than this!
Seriously though:
Unix - Stable server style OS, good for what it is.
Linux - Depending mostly on Unix's stable base code along with it's Windows like GUI. Server OR Desktop? COMEON Linux you can't have it both ways! And because most of the Linux distributions have been for Desktops they probably went for the wrong audience. What companies are going to sell their computers with Linux on it? Next to none.
Windows XP - Advertised Pumped OS, Thrown at you when you buy a new desktop computer, do you really have a choice? FK them for releasing such an unstable OS with all the 'white hackers' attacking it's quality codework! *Windows at it's finest*
Windows Longhorn (pre-released) - It's not released yet, so there is no point bitching or bragging about it! The final of it may not even have what is predicted.
Apple's Mac OS X - Pretty, UI, what about the performance Apple? don't forget that! Oh wait... you did! :P

All in all, we have today:
- some stable server OS's and some weak ones.
- some good desktop OS's and some piss poor ones due to their elaborate features and frequent updates.

So who will set the standard.. Microsoft with their pre-released Longhorn? Maybe, just maybe it will set the standard for a few weeks after it's released but will they fix all those bugs, holes, incompatible programming problems or just tease us with yet another quality OS?
/- I'm being sarcastic with the use of 'quality' if you haven't used Windows before -//
Timzone8 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14th December 2003, 22:42   #150
squall14716
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: 127.0.0.1
Posts: 349
Send a message via ICQ to squall14716 Send a message via AIM to squall14716 Send a message via Yahoo to squall14716
Re: Windows rulezzz.. Linux sucks

Quote:
Originally posted by Thomas12yrold
Hi all,

Haha Microsoft Critics .... How very stupid for a bunch of guys to criticize Microsoft...

Why do most people in the world have Windows on their computer? Why are 85% of the applications in the world programmed for Windows (let it be Windows 9x, Me, NT, 2k, XP, 2k3 or even Windows Embedded CE)? All applications are first devoloped for Windows and then ported to Linux..

I do agree that Linux and Unix both have stable kernels ... Windows also has a decent kernel.. DECENT..

Wwwwwait a minute... Havent you guys heard of the Windows Longhorn OS.. I'm sure WinFS, Avalon & Indigo of Longhorn can very easily beat up Linux/Unix... Longhorn is 64bit/32bit compatible .. I'm sure capable of ANYTHING Linux or Unix can do.. and a very very much more.. Though I've not checked out the Longhorn ALPHA or else BETA.. I can make out its goin 2 be a rock solid OS ... (I'm already goin through the Programming of a Longhorn App and XAML with Longhorn code in VB .NET, VC# .NET etc. rocks!!

Linux's so-called "Gnome" is no match for Avalon or even for WinXP's GUI

Haha, Linux's CharUI ... blah ...

Newayz I'm 12 years of age and ... going & growing ... I'm almost an MCSD (a lil more exams to go) and doin my MCSE in a few..

reply via mail (preferred) or else reply to this thread
Are you a moron or what? Windows is only useful to me because most programs are Windows only. Trust me, if I could find alternatives to all the programs I use, Windows would no longer exist on my system.

You scream that Windows is superior because of its GUI. Wow. KDE can match XP's GUI relatively easy and then it beats it. Gnome... well, I haven't used it a lot, so I'm not going there.

You say that "Oh, Longhorn r0x!", but you haven't even tried it. From what I've heard, even without it's new flashy colorful lights and using NTFS, it is amazingly slow right now. I can't speak from experience, since I am missing 1/40th of the ISO to see how much it sucks.

Your only arguments is that the fisher price GUI of XP and the GUI that you have never even seen before is better than Linux's Gnome and CharUI. Well, oh well. Big deal. I can actually play videos decently on Linux where Windows plays it like shit in all players. I can do almost anything I feel like on Linux. Can the same be said about Windows?

You're 12. Do I care? Just looking at that post you surely seem to need to learn some basic English again.

Why do more people use Windows? Well, because 99% of the new computers come with Windows, because the average computer user has never heard of Linux or do not have the ability to install it. Linux isn't as easy to use as Windows, but to be truthful it's not that hard to learn how to use it properly.

Why are there more programs for Windows? Easy, more people use Windows than Linux. It is that simple. But everyone should know by now that Linux is the biggest threat to MS and with Longhorn still more than 2 years off, I wouldn't be suprised if more people start using Linux.

Now I'm shutting up. Windows sucks for me. It seems anytime I get confortable using Windows XP Pro it crashes and burns and restarts itself. This is without even having a virus, folks. No MS Blaster here.
squall14716 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15th December 2003, 00:23   #151
zetafunction
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 99
Re: Re: Windows rulezzz.. Linux sucks

Quote:
Originally posted by squall14716
Now I'm shutting up. Windows sucks for me. It seems anytime I get confortable using Windows XP Pro it crashes and burns and restarts itself. This is without even having a virus, folks. No MS Blaster here.
I would suggest that means you're doing something wrong =)

I've only had that happen to me ONCE with Windows XP. At least, to the catastrophic extent that you seem to be describing. That's when XP went off deciding that it should munch up the MFT on my NTFS partitions. It was partially my fault, I suppose, as I was trying to get NTFS not to bother supporting the old 8.3 file naming standards, and inexplicably, the MFT would be wiped everytime I tried to turn that support off (via a Registry key... and for the folks who suggest I don't how to use regedt32... how about no?). I finally succeeded, although I'm not quite sure why...

I also have Mozilla Firebird crash on me occassionally--is that because of Windows XP too? Not necessarily.
zetafunction is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15th December 2003, 10:23   #152
|LDR|aDa
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Denmark, Copenhagen.
Posts: 42
Yo look little dude.

You dont know the first thing about linux.
Im not saying that Windows is a bad OS (no i use Windows XP for my developing, coding and gaming needs).
But would you please atleast do a little research before you go and bash linux? it is a GOOD OS, VERY GOOD and VERY STABLE (for the ones who know what theyre doing).
The Linux Kernel 2.6 is coming out soon, and it supports up to 64processors. 64!!!! and CPU HOTPLUGGING which basically means that if you have a 64processor system, you can take like 63 processors, unplug them and plug in new and faster processors, without rebooting.

Please admit it, you know NO programming whatsoever.
You have absolutely nothing to do as a MSCP or other.
You probably dont even know how multitasking works in DOS.
|LDR|aDa is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15th December 2003, 14:08   #153
zootm
Forum King
 
zootm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: the nether reaches of bonnie scotland
Posts: 13,375
the 2.6 kernel is out already, as far as i know.

zootm is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15th December 2003, 17:08   #154
xzxzzx
Forum King
 
xzxzzx's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 7,254
I find it relatively amazing how incorrect both sides of the argument are. Linux is not all high and mighty, primarily because if you take the number of programs written for Linux, and cube it, you're probably close to the number for Windows. Many of these programs are irreplacable in Linux.

Windows is overall a crappy O/S, but XP is actually pretty stable, and if you use good hardware, it should very, very infrequently crash, as far as a desktop machine goes.

And keep in mind, this whole thread is a joke.

Freedom of speech is the basic freedom of humanity. When you've lost that, you've lost everything.
1\/\/4y 34|<$p4y 1gp4y 33714y, 0d4y 0uy4y? | Roses are #FF0000; Violets are #0000FF; chown -R ${YOU} ~/base
The DMCA. It really is that bad. : Count for your life.
xzxzzx is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15th December 2003, 21:49   #155
zetafunction
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 99
Quote:
Originally posted by zootm
the 2.6 kernel is out already, as far as i know.
It's almost out. A feature freeze has been declared.
zetafunction is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16th December 2003, 01:37   #156
squall14716
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: 127.0.0.1
Posts: 349
Send a message via ICQ to squall14716 Send a message via AIM to squall14716 Send a message via Yahoo to squall14716
Linux is all high and might. With Linux, you can hack a fish! That's right, a fish!

http://bigmouth.here-n-there.com/billy-intro.html
squall14716 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16th December 2003, 05:20   #157
Qnight
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 20
Quote:
Originally posted by zetafunction
It's almost out. A feature freeze has been declared.
That's right, I'm running it under gentoo-amd64.
Qnight is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16th December 2003, 09:36   #158
|LDR|aDa
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Denmark, Copenhagen.
Posts: 42
ok i didnt know that much about the development of the 2.6 but its nice to know your features.
|LDR|aDa is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18th December 2003, 00:21   #159
enygma1
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 8
Quote:
quote:
"The reason why there is few games for linux is because of the small market share."



no, its because Linux isnt ported for current gaming technology, and games for linux have to be 'modified' to run on a linux platform.
Linux doesn't need to be ported. Linux natively supports OpenGL, and the nVidia and ATI drivers make use of the openGL calls. Games are what has to be ported, and due to the 'small market share', companies don't find much money in porting games over to Linux. Although, with Epic Games, they have the Unreal engine ported to Linux. The installer is on disk 3 of UT2k3, and I believe they are also porting UT2k4 to Linux as well. Linux is definately quite capable of playing games, and many DirectX calls have been properly wrapped to OpenGL through WineX. I played Warcraft 3 in Linux as well as the expansion.

I mainly use linux for digital content creation. I do 3D animation and modelling in Linux using Maya, which also happens to be more stable and quicker in Linux than it is in Windows. I am one of those people that have used windows since 3.1 and have stuck with Windows all the way to XP. My switch to linux has been hard, because it is indeed a whole different OS. the hard part about it is setting it up. However, with enough tweaking and the right window manager, you can increase your workflow to a much higher level than you can achieve in windows. Windows is still quite the capable OS. But it doesn't leave you much to customize compared to Linux.

Current Setup
Redhat Linux 9.0
Windows XP Pro
Grub Bootloader
KDE3.1 Window Manager

Hardware (the important specs):
Pentium 4 3.2 GHz, HT enabled
1024MB RAM
ATI FireGL X1

Both Linux and windows runs stable. Linux a tad bit more stable as I have had Maya running and things being created on one of my older workstations with a constant uptime of around 60 days. Everything ran as efficient as it did on boot up. (Redhat 7.3). I have a computer running IM and IRC programs using Fedora Core1 (not intensive applications though) and that has been going strong now for just over 30 days now. I haven't had a chance to test the uptimes I can get on redhat 9 because I shut down the computer I use it on every night to carry it to the office (I have a Shuttle SB65G2) so I can't give an honest comparison there.

Hard drive efficiency, well... I would take ext3 or xfs filesystems over NTFS any day. They run more efficient and are journaled. I also have access to the Fat32 partition between Linux and windows. After running defrag in windows on the NTFS and the Fat32 (I mainly use the Fat32 partition in Linux for storing files to share with windows), the NTFS partition was extremely fragmented and the Fat32 partition was 0% fragmented. This is just one thing to show how well Linux also manages files by making sure thay stay in one piece instead of being fragmented all over the place.

Kernel recompiling is a god-send as well. The default kernel in Redhat comes with so many modules installed and such that I most likely don't need. They are mainly there to insure compatibility with most systems they are installed on. By removing un necessary modules and adding modules you would like, not only are you enhancing the kernel to your specific system and your needs, but it is also being compiled on your machine as well, which has a tendancy of making things run a little more efficient on your hardware, as well as keeping the kernel small. The benefits? Faster boot times, kernel is less resident in the memory due to its size, and you don't need to worry about services trying to call functions that you deemed un-necessary and removed from the kernel. This is something you absolutely cannot do with windows unless you had the NT5 (Windows 2000) or NT5.1 (Windows XP) kernel source code and a compiler.

The difficulty of linux to set up mainly comes in the fact that alot of settings are located in files in the /etc directory. For example, if I was to install an nVidia graphics driver, once installed, I have to edit /etc/X11/XF86Config so that the driver that the card is using is 'nvidia' instead of 'vesa' or 'nv', and I would have to adjust the necessary options to get the resolution to be running at the 1280x1024 that I want at 24bits (Trust me, there is no difference in colour defenition between 24 and 32 bits). Or, if I wanted to add a partition to permanently be mounted everytime I boot up, I would have to edit /etc/fstab accordingly to do so. However, there are various frontends that are and are being developed that will allow you to edit settings in your graphics and network and whatnot without having to know what you need to do to the file itself. Although, it doesn't hurt to know what files do what in case you screw something up and can't load up your X server. Possible things that can go wrong, say you upgraded your linux kernel after you had your nVidia or ATI drivers installed. you would need to get into runlevel 3 so you can see the command line instead of X trying to start on you. You would need to recompile the drivers for that kernel before you can start X.

Another nice thing with linux that I found was a huge advantage over windows. The lack of necessary restarting. You almost never have to restart the computer for anything that isn't related to adding or removing hardware. Lets take graphics drivers for instance. Most likely, you need to install them in the command line. Open a terminal and type 'init 3' as root. This kills the X server which is necessary to install nVidia drivers. Once those are installed and you modified /etc/X11/XF86Config accordingly, type 'init 5' to load the X server and GDM to log back in. I had once had my system partitioned so that everything except /boot was one partition. I was running out of space and had to make use of empty partition on another hard drive. So I basically partitioned the space, reformatted it, moved all the data from /home over to it, then remounted that partition as /home without rebooting the computer. I just had to make sure I was logged in as root to do all that.

Speaking of root, this is one major security issue that is the base of almost all problems people have with windows. By default, on installation, when you boot into windows, your main user is granted administrator rights. Now this isn't as powerful as root, but the only thing you are missing that root has is the ability to mess with important windows files. Almost everyone I know that is using windows is using it as an administrator. and this is allowing you to unknowingly have programs installed on your computer where they shouldn't be, and sometimes, system settings remotely changed on you that shouldn't be. In Linux, upon installation, you are asked to create a root password. This is usually absolutely necessary before the installation will even continue. Then upon booting into linux for the first time (With Redhat anyways), you are asked to create a user. This is the user you will always log in as. The user has no access to important system files and cannot write to anything outside the $HOME directory, except for maybe /tmp unless you set permissions otherwise as root. This is a huge security benefit. Even if you log into the X server as root, you will sometims get warnings depending on which program you are running telling you that you would be dumb to continue using root for everyday tasks. Thus, nothing gets changed on you when you are logged in as a regular user, except for configurations in $HOME that you have access to, like $HOME/.mozilla or $HOME/.wine or something. Therefore, nothing will happen to your operating system unless you do something to it. Now, you don't have to log out to log back in as root to install something. Thats what the command line is for... You can have multiple instances of root logged in to do multiple things. It isn't usually suggested to stay logged in as root just in case though. You can usually log into root by typing 'su', although it is usually suggested you type 'su -c "command"'. That is probably one of the biggest benefits I find with linux is that kind of security.

As for kernel 2.6.0, as of today, they are at 2.6.0-testll-bk13. So hopefully later this month or early next month they will finally have the fully stable 2.6.0 kernel released. I have read articles talking about kernel latency, and 2.6.0 at its worst is supposed to be faster than 2.4.x at its best. Plus there will be many other speed enhancing features that will push the boundaries of real-time computing. I look forward to it. Been waiting for it since I checked the menuconfig in 2.6.0-test1.

Anyways, enough of my rambling. Not exactly the best place to blabber on about linux. I only came here to see if there were any projects to clone Winamp5 on Linux or anything. I still like my XMMS and Winamp 2 though. But hopefully this explains alot for some of you windows folk out there too scared to try linux. I have been using Linux now for 8+ months and I am not a programmer...
enygma1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18th December 2003, 02:53   #160
ertmann|CPH
Forum Viking
(Forum King)
 
ertmann|CPH's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: The North
Posts: 3,541
oh a god sent, a person running linux aswell who's not a troll....

one thing you forget to mention though, as i can see you're running redhat.... rpm's.... the default package manager for SUSE, Redhat/Fedora and Ximian.... it's pure hell, when you want to install something, you often have to download a dozen other rpm's the application depends on, and then you sometimes have to find new rpm's for the dependence rpm's aswell. Which is why i choose Debian, cause it does all this automaticly, unfortunantly 3rd party vendors pretty much only makes rpm's and very raraly debian packages.

Hopefully the Fedora implementation of Apt-get/Synaptic, apt-rpm, get's improved some more, also i've read some guys are working on having rpm's and deb's coexitst.
ertmann|CPH is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply
Go Back   Winamp & Shoutcast Forums > Community Center > Breaking News

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump