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Old 20th January 2004, 19:37   #41
marvinbarcelona
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Quote:
Originally posted by grumpyBB
The pilot had his orders and he followed them to the letter.
I've heard this before.....now where could I have heard this statement?

Any help?

It's been said that I could start an arguement in an empty room.....I see no reason to disbelieve this.
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Old 20th January 2004, 20:20   #42
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Army Apache helicopter shot down in Iraq

Associated Press
BAGHDAD, Iraq (AP) -- A U.S. Army Apache attack helicopter was shot down Thursday in western Iraq, apparently by hostile fire, a military statement said.....
Yes, this is a tru headline, and way too many of them have appeared the last year.
It is quite possible it would have been the headline the day after this incident if they had not taken action. Think about it.
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Old 20th January 2004, 21:32   #43
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Quote:
Originally posted by Fickle
right, so where's the controversy, they thought it was a weapon, you can't prove it wasn't (not we can't prove it was, but it's a moot point). What farmers tool is long and cylindrical like that. I've lived on farms. I can't think of a fucking thing. It wasn't a fucking rake.

I think it's funny that everybody automattically chalked it up to us hateful, trigger happy Americans before even bothering with a source. God forbid you fucking look around before you leap.
I agree with Grumpy, simply because what he said makes sense.

Amen Fickle.

Quote:
Originally posted by Phily Baby
That'll cut out anyone actually building anything out of wood in a country then! Or carrying around architect plans in a long cylindrical documents case. Or fixing any guttering and/or plumbing. Or, or, or, or.....

How can these people be so naivee as to believe we wont kill them just because they're innocent!
Then why, perchance did they throw architect plans into a ditch? Hell, why would they throw anything what you named into a ditch? Seems pretty incriminating to me, but hey, I'm a lousy trigger happy American, as so many people seem to believe around here.
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Old 20th January 2004, 22:32   #44
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I was watching the video again and I found something a bit interesting.

The second guy near the tractor is holding what appears to be a long cylindrical object and taking a sheet or blanket off of it behind the tractor. By the motion of his arms and the movement of the object, it appears that he is not "dumping" or dropping it, but that he is picking it up:


Zoomed in:


This could be written off as some normal activity, but it is important to remember that this is after the first guy was blasted with the apache's 30 mm.

Now correct me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't most people naturally run or hide after seeing someone get shot to pieces infront of them? Why would he be reaching for this object unless he could somehow stop this attack from a US helicopter?
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Old 20th January 2004, 23:25   #45
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Very intriuging Dawg.
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Old 21st January 2004, 04:58   #46
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that part of the video doesn't look like he's lifting anything, he is however uncovering something (all you see is him throwing back some kind of long, thin sheet - watch the moving version of the image and it's apparent that nothing there is solid). on one hand, the scenario you say is possible. on the other, it's possible he thought they missed him and was looking for something to hide under, while they would be drawn to the vehicles.

i'm still not really seeing controversy from this tape. there is not even close to enough evidence one way or another. this is all speculation.

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Old 21st January 2004, 23:03   #47
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But does it matter at the end of the day? So the military shot up a couple of possible farmers? What about those gangs of Iraqis who pulled those British soldier out of their landrovers and executed them? Or don't they count?
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Old 21st January 2004, 23:18   #48
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But Bilbo! The evil US soldiers surely didn't make a mistake and kill some people who may have been farmers! It's a conspiracy!

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Old 21st January 2004, 23:30   #49
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here is the video in its entirety.

http://www.kather.org/HomeSecure/Apa...on_in_Iraq.avi

I've never seen a farmer run to a ditch, toss a long thign in it, then run back to his truck, and I am less than a mile from three seperate farms.

this is kinda disturbing, but @ the same time, the guy they shoot is trying to kill them, so what are they supposed to feel? WARNING! GRAPHIC IMAGES!
http://www.informationclearinghouse....o_iraqiwar.wmv

either way, in either video, all I have to say is i'd rather it be them than us. As cruel and heartless as it may seem, as "wrong" as the US may be for being there, the men and women who are there are doign what they are paid to do. They are putting their lives on the line for whatever reasons, and they are my brothers, and my sisters. They are american, and I'd rather it be the enemy than them. Period, and I do not feel bad about that at all. Besides, it is easy to say "well duh they are farmers" or whatever, but none of us were there. Not one of us were in that helicopter with the memeriores of comrads who were downed because they didn't shoot the guy with the long cylendrical object @ night. GPG or rake, I do not care. I'm glad my american bretheran are still alive.

/edit
Dawg, I posted your finding on the other forum which link is on the front page. I used my own name (dlink) when I posted it though. I wonder what the people there will say.

Last edited by dlinkwit27; 21st January 2004 at 23:47.
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Old 21st January 2004, 23:48   #50
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Yeah. It seems quite obvious that this was not a normal farming situation, and was certainly covert. The video seems quite justified.

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Old 22nd January 2004, 06:24   #51
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Quote:
Originally posted by Bilbo Baggins
But does it matter at the end of the day? So the military shot up a couple of possible farmers? What about those gangs of Iraqis who pulled those British soldier out of their landrovers and executed them? Or don't they count?
That's like saying if someone is suspected for murder, the state has the right to kill their entire family and then decide if they were innocent or not.

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Old 22nd January 2004, 11:35   #52
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mmmmmm and the american's choose to be there, the Iraqi's didn't....
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Old 22nd January 2004, 14:26   #53
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The american's did not choose to be there. Bush chose to be there. The soldiers aer doing their jobs, following their orders.

Last edited by dlinkwit27; 22nd January 2004 at 14:45.
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Old 22nd January 2004, 14:36   #54
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Well that justifies unjustified killings then.

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Old 22nd January 2004, 14:46   #55
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Well hey, it worked when people tried to explain why the nazis followed hitler's orders.
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Old 22nd January 2004, 17:06   #56
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Now a comparison with Rumsfeld and Hitler.... I can see the remsmblence ..... There's hardly the threat of death for not following orders in the US army, especially in this situation.

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Old 22nd January 2004, 18:10   #57
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people don't follow orders because they fear death. They follow orders because a superior officer, or anyone in charge, tells them to. Have you not heard about the experminet which was done which tested this?

The shocks for incorrect answers and the tape recorording?
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Old 22nd January 2004, 19:35   #58
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Yes I've heard of that and it's disturbing, but you wouldn't get away with that excuse in a murder case, and hence I don't see why they should here. the reason the germans got away with that excuse was that they were led with by a dictator who would have them shot for disobeying orders.

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Old 22nd January 2004, 22:17   #59
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Quote:
Originally posted by Phily Baby
That's like saying if someone is suspected for murder, the state has the right to kill their entire family and then decide if they were innocent or not.
No, I was making tha point that no-one seems to care when the "enemy" breaks the Geneva Convention.
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Old 22nd January 2004, 22:28   #60
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Agh! Stop changing the argument!

My prediction of how this argument will go:

"They shot farmers!" -->
"No, not really, see this proof?"

"Uh, well, uh, the US sodiers CHOSE to be there! The iraqis didn't!" -->
"The Iraqis CHOSE to tote around military ordinance in a war zone."

"Uh, well, um, The US are a bunch of poopie-heads!" -->


The US soldiers were there, they Iraqis were clearly hostle. What do you expect them to do, get themselves shot down?

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Old 22nd January 2004, 23:26   #61
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Quote:
Originally posted by Bilbo Baggins
No, I was making tha point that no-one seems to care when the "enemy" breaks the Geneva Convention.
The excuse "well at least we are not as bad as <insert brutal dictator here>" does not convince me.

I still fail to see any evidence that the people in the video even knew the Apache was there. I certainly didn't see any looking to the camera and pointing going on.

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Old 23rd January 2004, 15:00   #62
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The cylindrical object doesn't look as an RPG to me and the tractor doesnt fit well in the story

But the history is much longer than that:

we shall begin in Kosovo 1999:

the americans bombed a convoy of Albanians killing some 80-90 civilians but were telling that they thought it was a serbian military convoy

Despite that, a nearby spanish plane clearly replied to the AWACS, NO military target, just a civilian convoy

That conversation was recorded by the serbian forces and was later made public

Then the AWACS gave the order to the other plane to continue mission and bomb the target

NATO and the Americans acknoledged later, that they bombed a civilian convoy, dropping only one bomb, serbs showed minmum 2 bombs, footage later released confirmed 2 bombs

Later, the americans dropped 4 thermo-visual bombs on a farm in Kosovo killing some 100 albanian civilians, again responding they attacked the serb forces

At the end of the war, no serb forces were found there, it was a farm where a convoy of Albanians thought would be safe after NATO began a massive bombing campaing in the fields bordering Albania

There were many similar incidents, but with only 20-30 death per incident

Overall, NATO, mostly american bombers, killed some 4000-5000 civilians, but the serb forces had only some 500-600 losses, including those killed in the combat with the UCK and american special forces

The difference is huge for what was praised as one of the most advanced wars and was a serious blamage to the NATO

Then comes Afganistan: I hope you haven't forget the incident where an american plane bombed a whole village into dust or when they bombed a marriage-fiest

The few Canadians that died doesn't significantly change the overall death toll

Accurate information is sparse, but they, again killed more civilians than Talibans
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Old 23rd January 2004, 15:27   #63
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Just to put your post in proper perspective,
Hitler & the Nazis murdered 6 million Jews through genocide.
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Old 23rd January 2004, 16:10   #64
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And 1 million serbs and some 10 million Russians, by the way.

The following influenza epidemic after WW I killed 18 million people, more than during the first world war.

Each year 2-4 million people, mostly children die of malaria. A similar number die of AIDS. Other neglected tropical diseases: in the millions. Through El Nino induced drafts and calamities and disease spread another significant number, YEARLY.

Yes, western world has a big negative impact on the 'global market'.
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Old 23rd January 2004, 18:37   #65
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In war, mistakes happen, mistakes commited by both sides. Atrocities also occur in war, again, commited by both sides. The Iraqis, I suppose, I understand a little more for the way they are waging this war because they are (as they see it) defending their country. However, I must say that I believe the US & UK are behaving in a very reckless manner. They are not fighting a massive pitched battle type war, they are fighting the people of the country they have invaded, who are fighting in a typical guerilla fashion. So the invaders really don't need to be shooting at anything moves. They have time to assess the situation. The heat of battle is different.

Regarding the Geneva Convention. It clearly states that even if your enemy hasn't signed the Convention or has signed and is disregarding it, it dosen't give the other side the right to disregard it as well....ever.

It's been said that I could start an arguement in an empty room.....I see no reason to disbelieve this.
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Old 23rd January 2004, 19:55   #66
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discoleo: I suppose you have a shred of proof? Hmm. Didn't think so.

I, for one, do not accept things simply because they are told to me.

Freedom of speech is the basic freedom of humanity. When you've lost that, you've lost everything.
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Old 23rd January 2004, 21:20   #67
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xzxzzx, I don't know about all of discoleo's figures but the Serb and Russian ones sound about right, to be fair. Although most of the Serbs and Russians died of neglect/overwork as slave labour and general poor treatment. We should also add; blacks, communists/socialists,trade-unionists, homosexuals & mentally and physically disabled people.

It's been said that I could start an arguement in an empty room.....I see no reason to disbelieve this.
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Old 23rd January 2004, 22:56   #68
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Quote:
Originally posted by discoleo
The cylindrical object doesn't look as an RPG to me and the tractor doesnt fit well in the story
Certainly the cylindrical object does not resemble an RPG because it does not have the telltale pointed rocket warhead and the tube itself is a bit thicker. However, what it does resemble is a shoulder-fired missle launcher, quite possibly one of the Soviet-made SA-14 or SA-18 surface-to-air missiles, weapons that are virtually as common as the AK=47 or RPG-7.
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Old 24th January 2004, 00:57   #69
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...or a piece of tubing used to fix drainage on a farm?

It's been said that I could start an arguement in an empty room.....I see no reason to disbelieve this.
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Old 24th January 2004, 01:20   #70
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or a giant vibrator for some sort of female cyclops. Nobody will ever know. They won't ever be brought back to life. The shots aren't ever going to be unfired. Why don't we all just shut the fuck up and instead of nitpicking over what everyone else does and thank whatever that we are still alive to bitch about it, and enjoy life rather that bitch about it. And yes, I do understand the hypocrisy in what I just said.
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Old 24th January 2004, 01:58   #71
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Quote:
Originally posted by marvinbarcelona
...or a piece of tubing used to fix drainage on a farm?
Would a farmer reach for a piece of drainage tubing if he was being shot at by a helicopter?
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Old 24th January 2004, 03:39   #72
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did he reach for it? the video is far from conclusive. he doesn't pick up the tube, he moves some netting. what if he was hoping to hide underneath?

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Old 24th January 2004, 03:47   #73
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Sheeting is supposed to hide him from a helicopter that can see his movements in the dark?
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Old 24th January 2004, 06:48   #74
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How was he supposed to know the helicopter could see that well in the dark. I suspect few, if any, of us can think even close to the way they were thinking.

Even so, I do think they were perfectly in their rights to gun down what was very possibly a threat. The only thing I don't agree with is gunning down the wounded.

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Old 24th January 2004, 07:10   #75
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Quote:
Originally posted by Spazz333
How was he supposed to know the helicopter could see that well in the dark.
Because he just saw one of his cohorts get shot in the dark.
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Old 24th January 2004, 08:56   #76
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Quote:
Originally posted by Dawg4Life2K1
Sheeting is supposed to hide him from a helicopter that can see his movements in the dark?
Sorry, I was refering to that directly. ::Points up::
Wasn't really thinking about the fact that it had already opened fire when he was trying to hide/grabbing the tubing/grabbing the weapon.

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Old 24th January 2004, 09:04   #77
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my history prof researched this incident after seeing the video the news showed. he found the FULL video and saw the guys go dump something off in the "ditch." the reason the apache was checking this place out in the first place was because there was reports of other aircraft being fired upon from this field. therefore i believe this was justified and the media is full of bs.
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Old 24th January 2004, 15:52   #78
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if they were soldiers, they'd know the chopper could see them in the dark. if not, they'd likely have never heard of the technology, so the light/dark issue doesn't really count. likewise them firing upon him before he dove - how is he supposed to tell where the helicopter is firing at, in the dark, before it actually hits him? would kick up a shitload of dirt, but the noise and confusion would probably make one place on the ground seem much like another.

the evidence COtto1984 gives is a lot more convincing.

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Old 24th January 2004, 17:35   #79
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Okay, the war was over. Those still fighting are guerillas, therefore rules of engagement apply. In the British Armed Forces you are not allowed to fire unless fired upon. If you spot something suspicious you are supposed to announce your presence and give a warning. The US Army just blows the crap out of anything that moves.

Okay, now why are the Iraqi's still fighting?

It's been said that I could start an arguement in an empty room.....I see no reason to disbelieve this.
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Old 24th January 2004, 18:16   #80
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Listening to the audio, it's clear that the pilot checked with command before engaging. Considering that the pilot was capable of seeing far more than what we're able to see from an onboard thermal camera and that he was trained in identifying weapons, especially ones capable of taking down his aircraft, it does not look like it was a trigger-happy shooting spree.

The "do not fire unless fired upon" roe simply is not realistic. The special forces from the failed Somalia operation can attest to that.
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