Old 6th March 2004, 01:28   #1
DJfire
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Did Nullsoft ban mp3pro stations?

I am now getting this:

<03/05/04@21:26:03> [yp_add] yp.shoutcast.com gave error (nak)
<03/05/04@21:26:03> [yp_add] yp.shoutcast.com gave extended error (mp3pro format must be nsv-encapsulated to list here)

What seems to be the problem using mp3pro?

I see everyone that was using mp3pro is gone from the listings.

Thank you
Fire
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Old 6th March 2004, 01:32   #2
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Yeah I just noticed that as well. Looks like it!
It will be intersesting to see what the official reason is!
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Old 6th March 2004, 01:36   #3
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mp3PRO

I have the same problem of not beeing listed

I have a 64 kb stream in mp3PRO

and a 32kb stream NOT mp3PRO this is also unlisted.

How to nsv-encapsulate?


Otto
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Old 6th March 2004, 01:53   #4
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it means you must use the NSV format.

The directory expects only mp3 and nsv streams.
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Old 6th March 2004, 02:04   #5
DJfire
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Quote:
Originally posted by KXRM
it means you must use the NSV format.

The directory expects only mp3 and nsv streams.
Ok it's MP3 AUDIO but the DNAS has no idea that it is not.

This is very alarming.

Fire
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Old 6th March 2004, 02:05   #6
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Quote:
Originally posted by DJfire
Ok it's MP3 AUDIO but the DNAS has no idea that it is not.

This is very alarming.

Fire
Content Type:audio/mpeg

Fire
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Old 6th March 2004, 02:27   #7
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Quote:
Originally posted by KXRM
it means you must use the NSV format.

The directory expects only mp3 and nsv streams.
Thank you for your keen grasp of the obvious.

Now, wise guy, since mp3PRO ***IS*** mp3 audio, and can be not only be listened to by ANYONE using ANY mp3 audio system (winamp, itunes, hell, even streamrippers), how is it that mp3 encoded data is also NOT mp3 encoded data all at the same time?
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Old 6th March 2004, 02:45   #8
ottoklesz
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mp3Pro

Hmm....

I just searched the yp for mp3Pro and

found 13 stations still streaming in mp3pro format!

Kind of strange.

None of them though uses "mp3PRO" in their station name.

Otto
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Old 6th March 2004, 03:09   #9
Jay
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Quote:
Originally posted by Man File
Thank you for your keen grasp of the obvious.

Now, wise guy, since mp3PRO ***IS*** mp3 audio...
technically you are wrong, but I forgive you.
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Old 6th March 2004, 04:17   #10
Man File
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Quote:
Originally posted by KXRM
technically you are wrong, but I forgive you.
Gee, thanks, Father.

I don't have to say what you technically are, since it's plain for all to see.

Tell me any single application that can process mp3 audio/mpeg data that cannot also process mp3PRO encoded data? (It is, of course, a trick question, since the answer is none.)

mp3PRO *IS* mp3 audio/mpeg. No matter how many times you stomp your feet, you cannot prove otherwise. After all, if you could have, you would have already.

I don't mean to get into a whizzing contest with you (but I will, if neccesary), I'm just curious where the origination of this lie is.
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Old 6th March 2004, 04:27   #11
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Sorry, I am going to have to go with KXRM .... although they are similar, it is not MP3, no matter how many times you hit it in the head with a very small twig.

Getting back to the real topic, is there a way to get around this "no mp3pro" problem? Or do we have to switch to regular MP3? (shudders at the thought)


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Old 6th March 2004, 04:59   #12
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Same problem here, I'm worried about this I been broadcasting with Mp3PRO for a long time


Error
[yp_add] yp.shoutcast.com gave extended error (mp3pro format must be nsv-encapsulated to list here)

Can anyone here help us how we can list our stations with mp3PRO Again
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Old 6th March 2004, 06:15   #13
DJ Killer
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ah well... life goes on... Shoutcast is proprietary, they will do as they wish. If you dont like it, well then... i dunno.

(Dont put your anger out on fester of KRXM)

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Old 6th March 2004, 06:29   #14
classicheartlan
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I need to chime in as well and say that this is alarming and that I really hope this is reversed. And, WHAT does nsv encapsulation mean???
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Old 6th March 2004, 06:32   #15
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NSV is the winamp video format.

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Old 6th March 2004, 06:40   #16
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Quote:
Originally posted by ruffdawg
Sorry, I am going to have to go with KXRM .... although they are similar, it is not MP3,
If that were true, why can neither you, nor the other rocket scientist, prove it?

If the point has yet to be made clear, I'll state it in simplest possible terms: every single version of Winamp without any modification neccesary can successfully play mp3PRO. Period!

This fact is undenyable, and incontravertable. No truthful proof to the contrary can be offered. (Which would explain why none has.)

To compare this to other media;

mp3PRO is analygous to IBOC (in-band on-channel) used for so-called High Definition Radio whereby a regular alalog radio can still demodulate a radio station that happens to also be HD - now and forever.

This is different from HDTV which is not IBOC, whereby television stations must have two transmitters on two different channels, and receivers must be entirely different, also.

Is mp3PRO different than mp3? Well, of course it is, because it's better. However, mp3PRO *IS* completely downward compatible with regular mp3. 100% of the time!

Anyone with any mp3 application can simply prove this to themselves.

Although I doubt I ever will, I'd love to know the reason for the lies to the contrary. (I understand that people like to believe lies, otherwise how would Republicans ever get elected.)

P.S. This is not, as someone has stated, simply a rant of anger. It is, in fact, a search for, and expression of, the truth. Do people who perpetrate unfounded and unproven lies anger me? Of course. Don't they you?

Take this all personally upon yourself, or on behalf of others, if you must. I suppose that would be the only verbal recourse of a liar exposed. I'm sure the personal shots at me will soon ensue. In fact, I'm surpised they haven't already.

No matter how much mud gets thrown, one aspect of this discourse remains constant: mp3PRO is mp3. If it were not so, someone claiming so would have proven it, already.
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Old 6th March 2004, 06:49   #17
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Mp3pro uses spectral band replication to make it save bandwidth. This is not mp3. This is a different form, but it uses the mp3 base. It essentially cuts an MP3 in half, and makes a new format on TOP of the mp3. Thus the file is NOT mp3. It is different.

Yes, winamp can play mp3pro, but only the "MP3" part, not the "PRO" part but to hear the quality, it requires a listener to download a plugin.

That should be un-necessary. mp3pro is also a proprietary format, thus licensing issues can affect this.

When you downgrade MP3Pro to mp3 its horrible. Its a spectral band replication format. It destroys half the file essentially because of like sounds.

If Mp3pro is just like anything else, why is there compatability requirements here:
http://www.mp3prozone.com/products.htm

and this says otherwise:
http://www.mp3prozone.com/basics.htm

aka, its an encapsulated format, such as NSV.

Winamp does not have to support it, in fact, there is enough "audio loss" going around in this world. I rather broadcast where i can offer quality, and you can HEAR everything, not have it cut out by some cheap encoder.

Stop fighting with the volunteer mods... dont fight with the engineers.

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Old 6th March 2004, 07:39   #18
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yea, some people will believe fraunhoffer propaganda like it's coming from the bible or something.

Man File,
Just because something is downward compatible doesn't make it the same as. There are disadvantages to this downward compatible capability you speak of, one of which is that if you broadcast at 44100hz of mp3pro audio an mp3decoder will only see half quality, no matter the bitrate. Also the licensing terms for the 2 are different, if they are the same format as you say, then why are the terms different. You have no idea why SHOUTcast chose to do this nor do I. It could be that licensing issues have come up, or it could be technical. You and I can argue until the end of time about this, but I don't have that much time.
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Old 6th March 2004, 07:42   #19
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*gives KXRM and DJ Killer High Fives, then I stare at my shoes, hoping they will let us mp3pro boys back in the YP*


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Old 6th March 2004, 19:14   #20
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So is there an official reason why they are banning mp3 broadcasters from the YP? Is there any chance they will reverse this? I'm using the SAM encoder...is there any way to make it NSV encapsulated?
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Old 6th March 2004, 19:37   #21
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shoutcast's default protocol is designed to support, and *only* support, mp3 broadcasting. all other codec styles must be encapsulated either within the nsv or nsa encapsulation set. the existing encoders which permit mp3pro encoding within the stream are improperly utilizing the stream format.

i'm making changes to yp which will detect the presence of mp3pro within a non-encapsulated stream and prohibit its listing. nsv/nsa is an open protocol and the authors who wish to broadcast with this format should a) rewrite the stream provider to encapsulate and broadcast in the encapsulated protocol, b) discuss with christophe which identifiers should be included for formal support of the protocol within NSV, c) create a playback plugin for winamp which supports the nsv/nsa encapsulation and streaming, and d) let me know when all of these things happen so I can formally expose these streams via the directory to players which properly support them. Considering 99% of the people which use this directory do not have mp3pro support within their players (mp3pro compatability as straight playback in mp3 does not qualify) it does not make sense to advertise streams which are actually broadcasting in the advertised format.

This is the same procedure we have to use to provide aac, vlb, aac+, and all future codecs via shoutcast. I force our internal developers to use this format spec, and I will enforce it within the community as well.

Take heed -- stations which are currently circumventing the simple title checks on mp3pro will find themselves unable to list in a matter of days. They are, of course, welcome to continue providing their stream to their end-users via SHOUTcast in its current format, but they are using a spec which was never drafted nor approved by Winamp or SHOUTcast. I'm heading it off at the pass now so it isn't an issue when there's greater adoption.

-t
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Old 6th March 2004, 19:41   #22
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*in girs voice* I understand..

Good man

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Old 6th March 2004, 20:26   #23
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[QUOTE
When you downgrade MP3Pro to mp3 its horrible. Its a spectral band replication format. It destroys half the file essentially because of like sounds.
[/B][/QUOTE]

What do you mean by Horrible?
56k mp3pro stream without the plug in compared to 128k mp3?
Well yeah, I think you have a point there.

But 56kbps mp3 sounds the same as a 56kbps mp3pro audio without the plug in.
I hear nothing different.
I also see no difference with a real-time FFT Spectrum Analyzer at 1/1 octave with 80 dB dynamic range.
I will do more testing on the 56k audio but no loss ,gain or distortion was noted.

As for the 56k mp3pro and 128k mp3 it's not the same.
You have a better chance at 64k mp3pro to produce the 128k mp3 sound.
13.3 to 15.986k is sloped gained by 1.2% with the use of mp3pro at 64k.
but any introduction of low end (2 to 15hz) audio has an effect on the higher end grunge heard. The more low end noise the more hi-end grunge. This is easily controlled with filtering but it should not be affected by a normal mp3 file.

If anyone else has done some studies between mp3 and mp3pro I would love to talk with you and see what you came up with.

As for the YP I have no idea what’s going on.
I hope there is an official answer soon.

DJFire
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Old 6th March 2004, 20:29   #24
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um there was one posted 2 replies up by peppert

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Old 6th March 2004, 20:30   #25
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I guess I took too long to write my message.
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Old 6th March 2004, 20:40   #26
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Just to clarify things am I to assume that if I want to be listed in the directory then I cannot use the mp3PRO plug in?

I use SAM2 and the mp3PRO encoder in it. I had actually stopped using it about two weeks ago because of some problems with it, but it seems now that I shouldn't even consider turning it back on because of this.

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Old 6th March 2004, 20:44   #27
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bingo

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Old 6th March 2004, 21:07   #28
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<03/06/04@14:00:23> [yp_tch] yp.shoutcast.com touched!
<03/06/04@14:03:03> [dest: 67.9.62.161] starting stream (UID: 21141)[L: 3]{A: WinampMPEG/5.0}(P: 2)
<03/06/04@14:03:22> [dest: 172.188.56.240] starting stream (UID: 21142)[L: 4]{A: WinampMPEG/2.8 mp3PRO/1.2}(P: 3)

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Old 6th March 2004, 21:10   #29
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Well like Tom said, someone's going to have to do a bunch of work to get mp3pro back on the YP. That's why my vote is for something like Nullsoft's DolbyAAC (somewhat like he-aac) being released by Nullsoft themselfs (a rumored part of Shoutcast3), or an implimentation of he-aac for NSV/A released by someone like Nero (hopefully).

Frankly I'm worried Shoutcast & Nullsoft in general for other reasons than not showing mp3pro listings. Hopefully you will never know what I'm talking about. Right Tom?
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Old 6th March 2004, 21:18   #30
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Quote:
Originally posted by jesseg
That's why my vote is for something like Nullsoft's DolbyAAC (somewhat like he-aac) being released by Nullsoft themselfs (a rumored part of Shoutcast3), or an implimentation of he-aac for NSV/A released by someone like Nero (hopefully).
I guess you can only buy that from Nullsoft when it comes out?
For a small fee of course.

Of course this is not part of the reason it's been banned right?

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Old 6th March 2004, 21:44   #31
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It almost certainly will be a reason AOhell are doing it...They bought shoutcast to make money... By removing mp3pro, they force stations like mine and yours to increase our bandwidth. We will end up paying much more - eg. I pay £20 per month for 96kb mp3rpo @ 20 users.
this will increase dramatically. So, to keep our overheads down, they will almost certainly release a bolt on for your app. This will be for a nominal fee of course.
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Old 6th March 2004, 21:45   #32
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on a different subject, Drivehell, How have you setup your tag, i'd love to know
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Old 6th March 2004, 21:51   #33
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Somehow I doubt it was AOL's decision as they would not benefit financially in any way by you spending more money with your own host. It seems to be a technical decision by Tom to force compliance with the mp3 standard, nothing else.

That's the reason there are standards in the first place, and I personally have never liked how mp3+sbr (mp3pro if you will) was implimented... and I think Tom's decision was right on. Although what I think means absolutely nothing.
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Old 6th March 2004, 22:00   #34
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maybe i didnt think it through, but i am pi**ed off that i'm not listed. But AOhell WILL want to make money from this one way or another. As for properly implemented? Why not just force mp3pro stations to have in their title MP3Pro? That way everyone who views the ML or shoutcast listing will know that the broacast IS mp3pro and not mp3.
A really simple solution???
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Old 6th March 2004, 22:03   #35
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Also, if the DeCoder is free - Thanks Thomson - why not just compile it into winamp?
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Old 6th March 2004, 22:09   #36
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At the end of the day, are'nt shoutcast just providing a free service which lists stations? Why pick on mp3pro? just because it was not intentionally implemented?
mp3 is free to encode,
mp3pro is a chargeable codec,
Are we going to have to pay twice now?


/Rant
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Old 6th March 2004, 22:10   #37
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The decoder is not free, but the license to use it for your personal use does not cost money. This license does not let you redistribute it in ANY way.

Including it as part of other software is a whole different ballpark alltogether.

[edit]the mp3 codec is not a free codec. nullsoft has to license the encoder and decoder from Fraunhoffer like everyone else[/edit]
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Old 6th March 2004, 22:10   #38
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Quote:
Originally posted by jesseg
Somehow I doubt it was AOL's decision as they would not benefit financially in any way by you spending more money with your own host. It seems to be a technical decision by Tom to force compliance with the mp3 standard, nothing else.

That's the reason there are standards in the first place, and I personally have never liked how mp3+sbr (mp3pro if you will) was implimented... and I think Tom's decision was right on. Although what I think means absolutely nothing.
Unless AOhell decide to charge a small fee to those providers, which of course will be passed onto the user.
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Old 6th March 2004, 22:22   #39
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If you want to blame anyone blame fraunhoffer, not AOL.
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Old 6th March 2004, 22:23   #40
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Quote:
Originally posted by Deusexmachine
As for properly implemented? Why not just force mp3pro stations to have in their title MP3Pro? That way everyone who views the ML or shoutcast listing will know that the broacast IS mp3pro and not mp3.
A really simple solution???
If you don't have a mp3pro encoder you can still hear it.

Here are some Windows, Unix, Linux and MAC players I know work with no problems without a mp3pro decoder.
Winamp (All Versions)
Windows Media Player
XMMS
mpg123
iTunes (Mac and Windows)
MusicMatch Jukebox
JetAudio Player
Nero Media Player
Zinf
QuickTime
RealPlayer
GSPlayer (Pocket PC)
Pocke Player (Pocket PC)
Philps FW-i1000,MC200 and MC250 (All Hardware)
Audio Tron (All Hardware)
KISS DP500 (All Hardware)
and the list goes on and on and on.

You don't need to have a MP3PRO decoder to listen to a MP3PRO station.

DJFire
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