Old 6th March 2004, 22:23   #41
Jay
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that's not the point.
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Old 6th March 2004, 22:29   #42
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That's nice DJFire, but seems like Tom has replied about it, and said how it's going to be. Dunno what else I can say.
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Old 6th March 2004, 22:43   #43
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Quote:
Originally posted by KXRM
that's not the point.
Ok my mp3pro RAW data never reaches the YP just to the DNAS and everything has been fine for over a year now.

The DNAS Re-broadcast my stream just fine no errors.

Now the YP gets its info (only text data) from the DNAS with no errors.
So my MP3PRO raw data audio stream never makes it to the YP to cause problems.

What's the problem now after all this time.
We should move ahead with Technology not try to ban it.
I remember when mp3 came out and everyone said a wav file was the best.
yeah but on a 56k modem it would take forever to download a 4 minute song. Now mp3 it was quicker.

As for Tom saying:
"it does not make sense to advertise streams which are actually broadcasting in the advertised format."

64k is 64k I'm lost on that one.
When is 64k not 64k?


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Old 6th March 2004, 22:50   #44
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As Tom stated, it's beyond the spec, simple as that. And just because something works outside the spec doesn't mean it should be done.
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Old 6th March 2004, 23:32   #45
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It's what we in the real world call corporate involvement. This is the way the corporation of AOL wants it done and that is the way it will be.

There are choices though and considering I started streaming seven years ago in RealAudio and have ventured through Windows Media and most recently Shoutcast it's nothing but a thing to start looking towards the next hot format like Ogg since it's starting to appear the AOHell effect is starting to set in on the Shoutcast community.

I don't blame people like the mods or Tom, this is AOL and what AOL stands for. I told alot of people back when AOL first got involved that things like this would happen and they're proving me right time and time again.

Is it time to switch back to Windows Media format?

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Old 6th March 2004, 23:42   #46
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Meh, Ogg is far too untuned for my tastes. I can't wait to start streaming SV8 mpc!!! wh00t!! Truely near cd quality at 128k. On Hydrogenaudio it scored higher than any other codec including several AAC implimentations (including Nero/Psytel).

AOL has effected Nullsoft since day one, this is nothing new. And it's just business. It's brought some good things (like money and free bandwidth) and some bad things.

But again I want to stress that even considering that AOL had a hand in this is totaly speculative and yet you make it sound like fact.

Either way I think this is a good decision (if you care Tom), and will also help to proliferate the formats that NSV/A supports - which can only be good for us all. =)
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Old 6th March 2004, 23:57   #47
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Quote:
Originally posted by MegaRock
I don't blame people like the mods or Tom, this is AOL and what AOL stands for. I told alot of people back when AOL first got involved that things like this would happen and they're proving me right time and time again.

Is it time to switch back to Windows Media format?
I don't have anything against anyone on here. I just read the posts and never put my $.02 in too much till now.
What's next? I think shutting out your broadcasters that made shoutcast what it is today is a bad idea.

I'm looking at Live365.
I rather pay for a service that does not censor what gets placed into a station name (to a point) and if they use mp3 or mp3pro. That's Just Silly

As for the mp3pro specs I think there is more to it then just specs.
Has to be there is something missing.
Maybe AOL wants Thompson or Spacial Audio to pay a fee?
We will see once this fourm is locked or deleted.

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Old 7th March 2004, 00:02   #48
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I think that blocking mp3pro is a terrible decision. I hope all involved in this mandate will reconsider this.
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Old 7th March 2004, 00:37   #49
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please read, no one is blocking mp3pro, what has been asked is that these developers conform to spec.
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Old 7th March 2004, 01:28   #50
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Guys I'm of the school of thought that when using low bitrates you don't try and do a half arsed job of encoding the tops. So for me when encoding for 56K modem people I think AM radio specs for all compression settings etc.

Whilst mp3pro does work nicely for people on modems. I find that when listening to a pro enabled stream on a default Winamp it is a bit more shimmy than the normal mp3. Also when you do install the plugin you get your top end back BUT it sounds like a reconstructed replica of it. Funny that's what it is!!! You can take milk turn it into powdered stuff then add the water later to get milk agian but it tastes like POWDERED MILK!

So for me mp3pro is not the go! If bandwidth is the the issue that makes it work for you then, concider this--

mp pro is concdered to be of benefit for streams below 64K with no real benefit to those up higher. For me it makes sense to run a 64K mono stream sampled 44khz. This would be better as it is full quality at that bitrate.

Hey everyone accepts 128k 44khz stereo as FM quality! Well let's keep that as the benchmark so 64k mono on a normal stream sounding shmick is the go!
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Old 7th March 2004, 01:38   #51
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Conform to spec? What spec? Who's spec? Is the internet not about change? Evolution of technology? Progress? Hell, while we're at it, lets go back to wav files then! MP# doesn't conform to that spec, does it?

Besides, could it really matter that much to me that the end user gets crappy audio because he/she is to0 lazy to upgrade his software. Or too loyal to an old "spec"? I think not.

Mp3PRO has helped the webcasting community tremendously by freeing up the pipes. Reducing bandwidth consumption, lowering costs, improving service etc. If that's a bad thing, no wonder AOHell is so distrusted by people who truly understand the nature of the internet.

In my opinion, this was a very bad decision and anyone that has been made aware of the undeniable benefits of this new technology would readily agree. The problem here is that mp3PRO is making major headway in the webcasting world, and if AOHell starts screwing up Shoutcast, there are plenty of open source servers out there without these restrictions. All that will happen in this scenario, is you will alienate your mp3PRO webcasters and they will go elsewhere.

Goodbye.
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Old 7th March 2004, 03:15   #52
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Peter - Anyone who says one codec standard is better than another should be shot. I've seen quite a few people banned without appeal from Hydrogenaudio for making these claims.

Hackked - I had quite a large bunch of text here written for you, but decided you wont hear me anyways, you're too stupid to understand. So I deleted it, and instead offer one word of advice for you.... Trollsex.
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Old 7th March 2004, 05:28   #53
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I'll say it one last time because it's not worth the time to sit here and argue this. It's an AOL mandated spec on AOL's software and it's the way AOL is.

You see, this spec is nothing to anyone else anywhere except Shoutcast/AOL. This spec isn't something others are going to conform to because no out outside of Shoutcast/AOL gives a s**t about this spec.

So we just take this as it is - which is a slap in the face of those trying to survive out here with the high prices of bandwidth, licensing and the such. Now, those who may have been surviving on a shoestring will have to either downsize their station or just have crappier audio. I personally feel seriously f***ing insulted over this crap because it is just that - crap.

What happens when the other media player makers decide to all have their own spec. What happens when iTunes decides taht this spec just doesn't conform with their spec and stop supporting SC streams? What happens when Windows Media's directory decides this spec doesn't conform to their spec and stop listing mp3 streams using the Shoutcast program? What happens when an ISP decides this spec is against their spec and they see spec's in their eyes?

I really don't think I can support this move and I SERIOUSLY will be considering dumping Shoutcast alltogether if this is how they plan on treating their supporters. A WMA stream costs the same and maybe it's time to slap AOL back in their face and take my support elsewhere. And, since all of those listeners will no longer have the need for Winamp I can encourage them to immediately switch to listening using a program which is already built into their computers instead of download a program that is becoming a corporate piece of s**t thanks to AOL.

Personally, they can take this spec and stick it where the sun don't shine.

Damn, this crap reminds me of when I used to use Live365 for a service and they would just randoml decide to screw everyone irregardless of the impact.

AOL, THANK YOU FOR INCREASING THE COST OF MY BANDWIDTH.

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Old 7th March 2004, 05:58   #54
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you could just turn to www.icecast.org and have no competition or any lame rules. They allow many formats.

Plus when I finish it. You can list on the yp I'm making at www.blue-music.com (the new site v2)

however. I don't broadcast anymore so this doesn't really affect me. However I think its very sad. I think there should just be a total re-write of the site to allow formats and wither that person wishes to use it.

just my $.02

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Old 7th March 2004, 06:25   #55
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Hey MegaRock, you took the words out of my mouth (or fingertips) regarding Live 365. Those a**holes totally screwed long-time users like myself a couple of years ago, and now I think I see the same thing happening with AOhelL and ShoutCRAP.

And for the mp3pro poo-pooers:
Audio Quality opinions are like noses...we all have one. I personally think that, for what we are doing here, a 64K mp3pro stream sounds just fine. I think the technology is revolutionary. It delivers the same quality audio as a 128 K stream (for all intents and purposes). It is good stuff. Standard or not, someone made a plugin that allows it to work very well with Winamp. Does that not give Winamp a leg up on the competition: Real, Windows Media???

Here's something to chew on: AOL has subscriber-only radio channels that score pretty high in the online listener ratings. Don't you all think that we indies out here are a collective threat to the suits??? If you want to lay down and s**k corporate c**k, go for it. I DON'T! THIS SUCKS, AND SO DOES AOL.
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Old 7th March 2004, 06:41   #56
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Quote:
you could just turn to www.icecast.org and have no competition or any lame rules. They allow many formats.
Indeed, it's the blister on the butt of the corporate world - having a choice.

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Old 7th March 2004, 06:43   #57
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simple question

Ok I understand this is the way it is and there is most likely nothing I can do to change it so the question arrises who is going to build the new directory that doesn't descriminate and where do I signup?

We did a huge push to get mp3pro on our station and our listeners love the enhanced sound, hell we still flaunt it all over our automation.

I have posted the well worded post of the shoutcast admins to Spacial Audio's board since from what I could tell this is a recent development and I know will effect more people than AOL/Shoutcast believes.

While I hope this gets reversed, I won't hold my breath instead I'll have to consult with the other station staff members and decide on wether we want to revert back to crappy sound or find somewhere else to go.

I hate when changes like this aren't formally announced or any consideration given to those of us who draw in folks from the listing. That more than the act itself discourages me about the ethical business practices of the new shoutcast.
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Old 7th March 2004, 06:44   #58
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Considering that almost none of the shoutcast broadcasters are pulling any advertising dollars, I would say you're not even trying to be a threat. Who's fault is that?

You're also not a threat because you're mostly very small, no matter how many of you there are. The people who are a threat to AOL dont need shoutcast to get listeners. For instance about 99% of our listeners are using WindowsMedia9.

Shutting down or otherwise hampering the performance of Shoutcast YP listings is bad for AOL because it damages the image of "internet radio" itself... at a time when it needs all the boulstering it can get.

Do you get it?
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Old 7th March 2004, 06:47   #59
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I dont think this is AOL's decision at all, I think it's all Tom guys.
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Old 7th March 2004, 07:42   #60
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I know one thing.
I gained more people since I went all mp3PRO then any other format. Why you ask well it sounds better and people at work sometimes can not listen to 128k stream on their network. I know they tell me that's why they tune in.

I can also say on the post about "Not many people have a mp3pro decoder plug in" Well I would say you are wrong.

55 to 70% of user agents on my servers between 8am to 7pm end with: mp3PRO/1.2 or mp3PRO/1.0
At night it’s even higher!

I have spent thousands of dollars out of my own pocket for all of the expenses every month along with 3 studios full of broadcast quality equipment and now once I get everything the way I want it I have to worry about if my stream is going to be listed there the next time I look for it just because I use MP3PRO because I think people deserve and

Someone once said:
"Things are changing so fast you either jump on the new technology train or get left behind."

It’s a bad call on AOL or whom ever came up with this bright idea.

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Old 7th March 2004, 09:06   #61
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We cant just change from one listing to another... we like being listed on ShoutCast, because it's huge. Where else can we go and get hits like this?
Also makes me wonder about the past 2 weeks intermittent service, has it been up and down because of the forced changes?
And why the F**k were we not told in a mass email or news that this was going to happen? At least we would've been prepared and made alterternative arrangements?

just to prove a point ICECAST have a total of 170 servers listed, while shoutcast have over 6000.
We need shoutcast to list us, but since mp3pro broadcasters are in a minority - around 800 they dont need us.
But the word will spread over the treatment of its users, speculation is rife, already many users are thinking of leaving and joining other services. How long before the mp3 stations will wonder, "will it be us next?"

I host only a small station with 20 slots @ 96kb mp3pro, nut its affected me so much already, that until this is resoved, my station is and will stay off the air.
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Old 7th March 2004, 09:35   #62
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the fact is this is not open to discussion, you guys are getting your panties in a knot for nothing. Mp3pro will return along with other better choices for codecs.

and no, I am not just speaking out of my ass.
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Old 7th March 2004, 10:06   #63
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mp3PRO

Hi,

Had the same problems, not getting listed from 2004-03-06 2:00 GMT. I solved the problem, with just writing a different name for mp3PRO such as mp3-pro or mp3(Pro) in the streamtitle.

Hope it works either on you.

Greetings Dirk374.

p.s. this is really a big joke !
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Old 7th March 2004, 10:12   #64
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Personally, I believe that no matter what, real people get screwed by the companies that take their money. Here we are promoting the technology, promoting the software, recommending it day in and day out.... what do we get? A big dick in our ass.

Microsoft is feeling the effects of open source and so will every other corporate entity that chooses it's bottom line over the people who create the bottom line.

It doesnt really matter though...when shit like this happens, I simply adapt and overcome. If that means using IceCast or Peercast, so be it. I'll just have to beef up advertising efforts a bit, and I'm sure there will be plenty of room over at AudioRealm.
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Old 7th March 2004, 10:15   #65
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Re: mp3PRO

Quote:
Originally posted by Dirk374
Hi,

Had the same problems, not getting listed from 2004-03-06 2:00 GMT. I solved the problem, with just writing a different name for mp3PRO such as mp3-pro or mp3(Pro) in the streamtitle.

Hope it works either on you.

Greetings Dirk374.

p.s. this is really a big joke !
please read tom's post, doing this is only going to make things worse for you, just switch to mp3 until devs fix their encoder.
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Old 7th March 2004, 10:23   #66
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Yes, saw it !

Now, first I was very happy to get this mp3PRO encoder, after the time, you just don't got it for money.

Now, after a short periode running, the first problems (after some other local probs) coming from somewhere else.

Now, I don't HAVE TO be listed on Shoutcast. Our primary region is Germany from our Website www.proradionet.de . Shoutcast is (was) just a good thing on top.

But If this woun't work at all, I don't really need to be listed in that directory.

I don't have the time (and the bandwith) to make a single stream just for Shoutcast listeners.

Better to be listed on as much websites as possible, maybe it's the better way .. ?

Now, lets see, what bricks will be layed on the way in the future. . . .

I'm sorry to see the Shoutcast community go . .

Dirk374
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Old 7th March 2004, 11:19   #67
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Oh I get it... Shoutcast is basically trying to stiff arm the mp3PRO developers into "conforming". The devs here are saying, "Hey, it's not us, ask your software vendor to update their implementation!" mp3PRO IS the new standard! Anything that saves bandwidth (which amounts to millions in savings) and helps maintain the quality of our streams is a good thing. At least I thought.
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Old 7th March 2004, 11:22   #68
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Quote:
Originally posted by Hackked
mp3PRO IS the new standard!
that statement is wrong in so many ways, have you heard AAC or any other non mp3 related codec? Mp3pro was a patch to mp3. There are much better codec solutions.
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Old 7th March 2004, 11:24   #69
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Quote:
Originally posted by KXRM
that statement is wrong in so many ways, have you heard AAC or any other non mp3 related codec? Mp3pro was a patch to mp3. There are much better codec solutions.
That might be true, but none of which that are as widely accepted, implemented and supported as MP3.
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Old 7th March 2004, 11:39   #70
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yes, and you can still use mp3 freely last I checked.
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Old 7th March 2004, 12:26   #71
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yeah, guys, i'm *not* trying to exclude mp3pro here, but the fact remains that 99% of the audience using our directories isn't capable of the mp3pro featureset.

i *want* to include mp3pro streams in our directory. however, i want those streams to be targeted specifically to the users who have optimized access to those streams. conformance won't be terribly difficult, and it will ensure that mp3pro gets included (instead of specifically EXCLUDED) from the shoutcast 3.0 protocol, in which *ALL STREAMS* are using the nsv/nsa protocol for streaming. this gives shoutcast the ability to appropriately handle codec types like mp3, mp3pro, aac+, aac, and any other codec people feel like using. each client which uses the shoutcast directory will inform it of what types of streams it's capable of playing back, and the directory will feed it a list of those stations.

whoever developed the mp3pro solution did so without discussing any of it with us. had they done so, i would have told them this was the way forward. i'd rather let you guys in on it now and force the issue for directory placement rather than have you claim I left you out in the cold when the next version hits.

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Old 7th March 2004, 13:16   #72
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hmmm, I doubt that will be anytime soon, right?


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Old 7th March 2004, 13:55   #73
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Herm, personally i don't care about mp3 pro, it's AAC or AAC+ I can't wait for. Not sure which one will be supported. Can you imagine how much bandwidth will be saved when everyone can switch to AAC+ ?

Man, streaming to 3G cellphones everywhere at AAC+ 32k

Shizzle my hizzle, I can't wait!!!
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Old 7th March 2004, 15:01   #74
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Indeed though, here is the problem:

Quote:
whoever developed the mp3pro solution did so without discussing any of it with us. had they done so, i would have told them this was the way forward
Seriously, how many software companies consult with other companies when developing software? For instance:

Did Nullsoft consult with Microsoft since it is a program that works with Windows? Did you make sure Winamp conforms to each and every spec that the Microsoft Corporation dictates?

Did Nullsoft consult with the makers of every sound card and sound card driver makers to insure that Winamp also conforms to their specs since it is their hardware that Winamp plays through?

Did Nullsoft consult with the Baby Bells and ILEC's and backbones of the internet to insure their player conforms with the specs of all those other companies since it is their internet transport which gets the streams over the internet in the first place?

My bet is the answer to all of the above is NO.

So, what happens to Winamp if Microsoft decides that Winamp doesn't conform to their standards and take measures to insure Winamp does not work with their operating system?

What happens when the sound card drivers get in a hissy fit becase Winamp doesn't conform to their specs so they start making sound cards which will not work with Winamp?

What happens when the backbone providers decide the transport spec doesn't conform to their spec and start blocking Shoutcast streams until Nullsoft develops their player in a way that makes the ISP's happy?

You see, the point is you do this and they can act the same way. Nothing at all to stop them.

My main bulk of listeners do not come from Shoutcast.Com, in fact little to no traffic really comes from there. My traffic comes from the Windows Media Player radio directory. Has been for years. Listening using a player that is built into every computer on the player sounds just as good as using Winamp.

Well, about six months ago I invested the money to push mp3PRO since many people were requesting it. In switching to mp3PRO I had a ver specific and valid reason to get Windows Media Player users to download and install Winamop - becase I could offer them a better quality qudio stream in using it and the mp3PRO plug-in. And people started doing it. Alot of people.

Now, I have to tell them that because of the powers-that-be who think this is a good thing to do the mp3PRO streams can no longer be available. I now have to tell them that having this extra piece of software - your companies software - is no longer even needed and they should just delete it because the one and only real reason they had to use it has been taken away. And yes, I am specifically requesting my listeners to remove the program and telling them why - it's corporate BS and everyone here knows it. And just to encourage it's removal I make sure I tell them AOL owns it.

So, in reality the one and only reason I had to encourage use of Winamp you have now taken from me and that's just bad business (but when has an AOL company ever been GOOD at business?).

So now I get to decide if I even want to remain listed in the YP. I may just go to a private server and continue getting my listeners from Windows Media. I may also use blocking technology used to block stream rippers and use it instead to block Winamp 5 and post the reason why on my website.

Like I said, it's not like I have noticable traffic from the YP, but it's the basis behind this move that just makes me sick and for the first time I can truly say I don't know if I can even continue to support Shoutcast if this is the way it's going to be.

This is why I left Live365 and may very well be the reason I leave Shoutcast, since there is no longer any advantage to supporting the use of your software. Live365 turned around and pretty much said "Who cares what you are the listeners want. This is Live365 and this is the way it is". When they said that the first time they had 50,000 streams. Now they have under 4,000 and dropping. Ignoring listeners and broadcasters got them far.

It really is as simple as this.

And maybe Nullsoft should pay attemtion to the backlash this is getting here, the Spacial Audio list, two of my providers e-mailed me and it's a very big topic on many internet related discussion boards - and not one person agrees it is a good move.

That's my two cents. Now, if you'll excuse me I have to finish working on my Icecast server.

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Old 7th March 2004, 15:10   #75
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your analogy is surprisingly accurate to the way things really work in the computer industry.

Your SHOUTcast server will be able to continue to broadcast mp3pro, just not listed in the yp, so I am not sure why switching servers helps. If it's in protest then that's your choice.
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Old 7th March 2004, 15:22   #76
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Rob:

I'm definitely not saying "who cares about the listener community". I spend hours each day working for the sole benefit of the listening community.

Part of caring for the listener community is defining a standard and conforming to it. The original shoutcast protocol is now 4 years old, and the future vision of how to stream alternative codecs within its framework was defined long before mp3pro was created as a standard.

I have no opposition to mp3pro as a codec. Indeed, it is a clever enhancement of mp3. It is not, however, mp3, and the guidelines of the yp directory explicitly state that the old protocol will only list pure mp3 streams.

if i permit mp3pro ongoing, then when v3 appears with a new DSP and source programs, and features like station registration and individual metrics tracking appear, mp3pro will not be an option we can provide. The manufacturer of the plugin you use now will have to update at that point if you intend to broadcast within the new system. Imagine the number of angry broadcasters at that point versus if I encourage the change today.

It's not a difficult prospect to encapsulate mp3pro. Winamp 5 can already un-encapsulate the stream and list the stream. It's a medium-sized effort on behalf of the plugin authors, but it encourages good communication between us instead of forcing each other to adopt random undocumented APIs and protocols. I know it temporarily reduces your access to the eyeballs of browsers of the directory, but with the current amount of discussion and heat surrounding this topic, imagine what it would be like 6 months from now.

I appreciate all of you broadcasters, and hope you'll really consider why we're requesting these changes. I know it's easy to percieve the huge corporation as manipulating puppet strings to its own end, but SHOUTcast doesn't generate any incoming revenue and is really a labor of love of Tag and myself. That's it.

I *promise* you that mp3pro support is coming. Other, equally wonderful codecs (and some that are better) are also on the way. I just hope you can understand that the integrity of the broadcasting environment alongside the expert programming of grassroots broadcasters such as yourself is what has made us successful to date.
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Old 7th March 2004, 15:52   #77
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I'm done.

I have officially removed my listings from the Shoutcast directory since the Shoutcast directory does not support me. It has shunned my stream because I don't use a format they agree with and therefore you shun my listeners who use that format. I don't allow my listeners to be treated like this and I've received a S**TLOAD of mail concerning this already just from my own listeners. I stand by their desires and you do not.

The party officially is over. It's now a do it our way or bug off. I'll bug off.

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Old 7th March 2004, 16:18   #78
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OK. I want to preface this by saying I do not come around here much. I got word of this news on my staff list for nhb radio, and I am confused and concerned. People who use mp3 pro, to my understanding are generally using SAM encoder or Sam 2, a product they paid money for. Based on the requirements, it seems like Spacial Audio is going to have to do some work to get the plugin portion upgraded so that mp3 pro will be compliant with the demands of the YP moderators. Now, I am not here to make waves as much as this news is annoying me, simply because I don't understand what the big deal is in the first place. I work in the computer industry and I do technical support as my job, so I understand the frustration of the shoutcast team when the outrage factor increases. Can you guys tell me, in nontechie terms, why shoutcast is making this change? What is the real problem with mp3 pro in its current incarnation that we are being de-listed. MP3 pro station will now have to wait for spacial audio to put out a new version with compliance to this new rule, and I believe that the thompson decoder will also need to be patched as well, plus mp3 pro players will need upgrades as well. this seems kind of lame to me, but again, I am here to just ask questions. It would be no problem to redownload the shoutcast plugin and set it up the old way, prior to mp3 pro, but this is going to suck badly for the listeners who have gotten used to mp3 pro, and also for the staff who will have to all reconfigure everything from scratch. Not to mention that the shoutcast dsp is horrible for blind users due to its inability to minimize to the tray or at least minimize at all, and shoutcast has not released a new plugin in years. I mean, guys, if you want to ban us from using mp3 pro, fine, but you guys have done nothing with the encoder since 2001 or so. I know this is volunteer and all, but I just don't understand why this is a huge issue to the point of delisting stations just because something isn't encapsulated properly. Please, somebody, enlighten me and the rest of us who don't understand, in a language that we can all understand.
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Old 7th March 2004, 16:48   #79
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Tom. I know you have been touting shoutcast 3.0 for some time. My question is when? And please, for the love of God, make the dsp plugin something we can minimize to the system tray and give us some keyboard shortcuts for blind users, please, please, please, please.....
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Old 7th March 2004, 16:57   #80
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I would imagine that now that the majority of Winamp5 is done some new SHOUTcast stuff is around the corner.
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