Old 7th March 2004, 17:25   #81
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I'm glad to hear it. Maybe a new DNAS could be down the same alley. Hopefully...


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Old 7th March 2004, 17:26   #82
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It sounds like if you are going to be broadcasting in mp3pro and someone goes to shoutcast.com and looks for lets say Rock and if they have a player that has mp3pro they will see you. If they don't then they will not just the plain mp3 stations.

Quote:
From Tom:
each client which uses the shoutcast directory will inform it of what types of streams it's capable of playing back, and the directory will feed it a list of those stations.
Is this what is being said?
Everyone will see mp3 stations and only mp3PRO Compatible players will only see mp3pro stations

Let me try to explain this one more time:
People that have a plain mp3 stream will be seen by everyone on shoutcast.com but mp3pro streams will only be seen by players that are Compatible of decoding mp3pro data.

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Old 7th March 2004, 18:37   #83
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ok, this is how it's beginning to look to me.
You guys at shoutcast want to dramatically improve the service?
To do that you need the authors of the new, old and emerging codecs to contact you about some sort of standards to help both broadcaster and listener alike?
To do this you need to shutdown mp3pro to "force" the issue, because most likely these people have ignored your requests?
Is this what the whole issue is about?
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Old 7th March 2004, 19:00   #84
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OK, so mp3 pro players under the new standard will see all mp3 streams in addition to mp3 pro streams. How do you determine if your player can see mp3 pro streams? Isn't anybody aware that even without the mp3 pro decoder, you can still listen to mp3 pro, just at a lower quality? So, basically, once this new strategy is implemented, unless your player can read mp3 pro streams, mp3 pro streams won't be seen by you. Maybe I have this all wrong, but this sounds like it will cut out some of the streams just based on some encoding method, even though mp3 pro is supposed to be backward compatible. maybe I am not explaining it right or maybe I am misinterpretting what is being written. Basically, mp3 pro is backward compatible, so you should be able to listen to mp3 pro even if your player does not directly support it, you will just have inferior sound quality. But according to this, if your player does not support mp3 pro, you won't even see the station listing for an mp3 pro station. This doesn't sound quite right.
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Old 7th March 2004, 19:18   #85
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by DJfire
[B]

You don't need to have a MP3PRO decoder to listen to a MP3PRO station.


Really? Then why is it that when I listen to a MP3 PRO station without the Thompson MP3 Decoder a MP3 PRO station sounds like shit, but when I enable the plugin, it sounds twice as good. Despite what you say, Winamp (current version 5.02) does not, out of the box, directly support MP3 PRO. In other words, you can't just install Winamp or another player and expect to hear that extra MP3 PRO quality, otherwise the Thompson MP3 PRO plugin would not be needed to listen to the stations that use the format. You may be right about the hardware stuff, you may be able to listen to an MP3 Pro file without an encoder for those, but not with the current version of Winamp. Try it yourself and see. I'm sure others will back me up on this. and if you *still* don't believe me and think I'm a lier, check out, <A HREF="http://www.80snow.com">80sNow.com</A> on that page, you are told, in no uncertain terms that the Thompson MP3 PRO plugin is needed to listen with maximum quality. Hmm. Seems to me that it's needed, otherwise they wouldn't mention it and give a direct download link for it. interesting how it all works, isn't it?
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Old 7th March 2004, 19:38   #86
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Oops, my link didn't show up. head on over to www.80snow.com and see what I awas talking about with the mp3 pro plugin. they wouldn't give a direct link and encourage listeners to use it if they didn't think it would help.
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Old 7th March 2004, 19:49   #87
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by toonhead-w4tb
[B]
Quote:
Originally posted by DJfire


You don't need to have a MP3PRO decoder to listen to a MP3PRO station.


Really? Then why is it that when I listen to a MP3 PRO station without the Thompson MP3 Decoder a MP3 PRO station sounds like shit, but when I enable the plugin, it sounds twice as good. Despite what you say, Winamp (current version 5.02) does not, out of the box, directly support MP3 PRO. In other words, you can't just install Winamp or another player and expect to hear that extra MP3 PRO quality, otherwise the Thompson MP3 PRO plugin would not be needed to listen to the stations that use the format. You may be right about the hardware stuff, you may be able to listen to an MP3 Pro file without an encoder for those, but not with the current version of Winamp. Try it yourself and see. I'm sure others will back me up on this. and if you *still* don't believe me and think I'm a lier, check out, <A HREF="http://www.80snow.com">80sNow.com</A> on that page, you are told, in no uncertain terms that the Thompson MP3 PRO plugin is needed to listen with maximum quality. Hmm. Seems to me that it's needed, otherwise they wouldn't mention it and give a direct download link for it. interesting how it all works, isn't it?
Well listen to a 64k mp3 stream and then a mp3pro encoded stream without the decoder.
No differance what so ever.
Of course 64k mp3 does not sound good but you said "but when I enable the plugin, it sounds twice as good"
64k at 22kHz is 64k at 22kHz no matter how you stack it.

So if you want to listen to a plain 64k at 22kHz mp3 sound don't install the decoder.
If you want to hear a "twice as good" sound (64k at 44kHz)install the decoder.
It's YOUR call.
I can't tell people that "YOU MUST INSTALL THIS DECODER" just to listen to us.

If you are listening to 128kbps mp3 stream and then listen to 64k mp3 stream you will think 64 sounds like s**t.
That's a no brainer.
128kbps = 44kHz
64kbps = 22kHz

I have a Philips MC250 and I don't need a mp3pro plug in.
It's hardware and Nero media player has it built in.

Have you tried a few other stations to base your facts on?

Try others that do not have mp3pro streams (just make sure they are 64k 22kHz and not 128k stations) and see how they sound.

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Old 7th March 2004, 19:52   #88
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Quote:
Originally posted by toonhead-w4tb
Oops, my link didn't show up. head on over to www.80snow.com and see what I awas talking about with the mp3 pro plugin. they wouldn't give a direct link and encourage listeners to use it if they didn't think it would help.
That's the whole point of mp3PRO It helps.
It's Good!

Why would you not want to tell your listeners how to hear a better stream?

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Old 7th March 2004, 20:29   #89
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You guys fail to see one thing Tom said. He has already planned to do what he's doing BEFORE mp3pro was even invented. In a weird fluke someone (Spacial Audio) actually licensed mp3pro and did a plugin for it.

It's thier fault for not contacting Nullsoft to even tell them they were working on it in the first place, they are where you should be directing your "bad energy".

And despite what all of you think, the developers in the codec & player world DO talk to each other and help each other out considerably. Especially mpeg4 developers like Ivan & Menno from Nero, and Frank Klem of mpc (who just opensourced SV8, wh00t!), the guys from the Lame project, and on down the line.

If it wasn't for rigid "rules" shoutcast would not exsist today, and neather would the internet, and neather would your computer for that matter. So stop bitching about it, and start helping to build support for the changes which will come. Or just leave, because you're just wasting energy here, and you're upset because Tom doesn't comply to Spacial Audio's abuse of his own ideas (which they didn't even bother asking about). (cough)

Does that help clear your heads? www.spacialaudio.com Contact them now, bug the living hell out of them. Mabey they'll release thier own playback plugin for NSV/A + mp3pro if you're lucky.

And if you can wait, Tom already promised mp3pro in Shout3, but like he also said, there's "better" codecs that will be available and you wont even care about mp3pro anymore.
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Old 7th March 2004, 21:38   #90
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Yes indeed, we can all wait for an update to a program we've been waiting for how long? It's owned by AOL and ever since AOL took over there has been litle to nothing put back into Shoutcast. AOL bought Nullsoft for Winamp, not Shoutcast.

I'm not holding my breath.

Spacial Audio also has NOTHING to do with the mp3PRO encoder for Winamp. Spacial Audio only has a mp3PRO encoder in their broadcasting software. Since the encoder itself is designed by Thompson, Spacial Audio CANNOT modify the encoder without Thompsons permission.

I'm also wondering why Nullsoft thinks it's so special all of a sudden. When did everyone in the music codec development world have to consult with Nullsoft for their approval of a audio format that they had nothing to do in developing?

This is like the government banning Ford automobiles from the road becase Ford didn't consult with them about what kind of lettering to put on their tires, so if you have a Ford you just can't drive it anymore..or you can wait until Firestone puts out new tires with exact lettering Nullsoft approves of.

And, if Tom already planned on this - it makes this even worse becase - simply put:

IT WOULD HAVE BEEN NICE TO WARN PEOPLE THEIR STREAMS WERE GOING TO BE BANNED BEFORE IT HAPPENED. INSTEAD THEY JUST DID IT AND SAID SCREW EVERYONE AND ONLY WHEN THE TOPIC WAS BROUGHT UP IN THE FORUMS DID ANYONE EVEN TAKE THE TIME TO TELL US WHY.

And that, my friend, is wrong irregardless of the reason. And this is exactly how the AOL corporation operates.

Again - I can't make Spacial Audio rewetie the way the mp3PRO encoder works becase they don't own it and neither does the developer of the Winamp plug-in. And Thompson don't give a crap about Nullsoft so these changes aren't going to happen anytime soon. Until then, all the mp3PRO broadcasters who have supported this community get sh!t on.

Personally, I'll never look at Nullsoft the same way ever again. They lost my trust in doing things in the manner they did - no warning and a take it or leave it attitude. I have full faith the folks at Spacial Audio will rememedy the situation at their end rather quickly (already had news on this), but that still doesn't change things now. This was handled poorly and with total disregard for the broadcasters involved.

I feel like I just got bit*hslapped for five years of supporting Shoutcast.

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Old 7th March 2004, 22:07   #91
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I have just recently switched to SAM2, and I couldn't be happier. One reason was because there were things that were going on. Unlike Shoutcast, where if it were a person, it would be declared dead. MP3pro was a great bonus for me, since I don't have alot of bandwith so listeners can tune into a half decent stream using Mp3pro. Now that it's disallowed, I'm very dissapointed. I've been waiting for a shoutcast update for literally years, and the only kind of change, or action if you will, was to take away something great, instead of giving back to the communtity. Which is what us broadcasters do, give back to the community. Shame Shame.


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Old 7th March 2004, 22:19   #92
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Indeed, the Shoucast directory would not even exist if it were not for the broadcaters. Were the broadcasters consulted in the least on this?

No.

They expect other companies to consult with them when writing software that isn't specifically for their product - but don't consult at all with the very people responsible for the existence of the directory in the first place.

Without us, Shoutcast.Com doesn't exist.

Man, this is SOOOO much like the way Live365 treats it's broadcasters (and we ALL know how that is).

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Old 8th March 2004, 03:44   #93
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Rob, you keep saying the same thing over and over. And how do you know anything about spacial audio's agreement with thompson? Do you work there? (yeah right) Well then keep your quasi-truth rant/bitching to yourself. You're acting like a little baby.

The community exsists because Tom is cool enough to share his software with everyone for free. AOL doesn't care about shoutcast, Tom said so. If you can't sit at the King's table and eat his food, then you need to get the heck out of here - for your own sanity.
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Old 8th March 2004, 04:51   #94
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Dude, the community does not exist because, as you put it, the KING is allowing people to use his software.

It exists because people are using it. If no one used it, irregardless of if it costs or it was free - if no one used it there would be no community.

As far as whats going on at Spacial Audio - no I don't work there but it's pretty blatantly obvious that they licensed the use of the encoders in their program. Spacial Audio has no more right to modify the structure of the mp3PRO codec than they do to modify the Windows Media Codec, the Fraunaufer Codecs, etc. The companies have to approve changes to their codecs and mp3PRO has become a standard, which means changes to it specifically aren't going to happen overnight. I do suspect from communications I got from SA that they are looking for a solution to this, but what I am unsure of at the moment as are they.

Irregardless of any of this I have done as you said. I got up from the Kings table, left the plate of food and rode my trusty steed on down the road. I've seen absolutely no change in listeners sumbers being out of the Shoutcast directory so I see no loss in this at all. Windows Media's directory sends me the bulk of my traffic and partners with me on revenue generation and I get tracked by Arbitron for free so in supporting them I get support in return. Here I get nothing but smart arsed comments from people like you.

Go kiss the King's feet now so you can be happy.

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Old 8th March 2004, 06:07   #95
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I said a smart ass comment? Mabey that's true, but at least I dont make up facts.
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Old 8th March 2004, 12:58   #96
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Facts are facts my friend. Tell me where this community would be if no one used Shoutcast. Free or not, people have to use it to make it something.

Tell me also how you expect Spacial Audio to have the rights to modify the structure of mp3PRO, Windows Media and Fraunhaufer codecs. People don't license out the right to mod their software, they license it out to be used. Even you should know that.

Since you seem to know 'the facts' let's hear them.

In fact, your facts seem to imply that this mess is Spacial Audio's fault:

"It's thier fault for not contacting Nullsoft to even tell them they were working on it in the first place, they are where you should be directing your "bad energy"."

You are in fact (a) implying this is Spacial Audio's fault and (b) Spacial Audio is who I should be mad at, not the people who banned with no warning.

For someone speaking so many facts you seem to be real easy in not having any truth in this statement. Do you think Spacial Audio is the only ones who have an mp3PRO encoder on the market? Do you think Spacial Audio wrote SAM2 specifically for Shoutcast? Do you really believe that SA licensed the right to rewrite mp3PRO because one vendor wants it that way?

Seriously, you seem to be the be all, end all of truth in this forum, so why not share some of that extensive knowledge with everyone since you so easily blamed Spacial Audio for this whole mess and believe it is their job to fix this mess and your implications that Shoutcast is not to blame in the least.
If you know so much truth, let's see some of it.

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Old 8th March 2004, 15:14   #97
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Rob facts are not just facts when you make stuff up dude. First off you have no comprehension of what muxing is, so you dont even understand the very simple changes that have to be made by Spacial Audio.

I also dont think you should be mad at anyone, but you should be disturbed that Spacial Audio sold you a plugin that interfaces with someone else's server, and developed the whole thing without even so much as telling Tom about it. That's what you should be upset about.

And that's the truth as I see it. I dont expect you do, cause you're still here saying the same things over & over.

Also Spacial Audio are the only people that have ANY kind of code that can stream mp3pro, no matter what the server is that i know of. I've outsearched google many times in years past looking for such software, to no avail. If there was something else, it would have already been plastered all over these forums, duh.

The simple truth in all of this is that you have given Tom zero and you have given Spacial Audio something for a peice of software that they didn't even attempt to council Nullsoft about.

I do feel sorry that you have wasted your money with Spacial Audio (in your mind). But seeing as you havn't given Tom anything, and you dont even understand the problem, I dont understand how you can say anything about his free software (and the free YP listings) without either donating lots of money, beer, food, etc.
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Old 8th March 2004, 17:51   #98
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I considered using mp3pro (since i have only a 24k stream) but noticed a drop in quality for people not using the mp3pro plugin. Since over half of my listeners are using I-tunes and players other than Winamp, I thought lessening the quality for half teh users and increasing it for teh other hald wasn't a good trade off. Seriously, listening to an mp3pro stream without teh plugin makes me want to puke ;-) I'm willing to bet Tom notices this as well.

I eventually decided mp3pro wasn't for beatbasement... and instead created a subscriber 128k stream so the people who can't handle 24kbps can pay their own bandwidth on teh 128k feed (plus a little to support the free 24k feed of course).

I feel that using mp3pro is actually unfair to many listeners. Those that can support mp3pro (by downloading a Winamp/windows-only plugin) benefit, while the rest suffer. If you really wanted too be fair to all of your listeners, you would ditch mp3pro completely.

Shoutcast's decision to drop mp3pro from the directory is not the end of the world guys.
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Old 8th March 2004, 18:25   #99
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The mp3PRO deal!

Ok,

I have NEVER posted on this forum (respecting the Nullsoft) Team - but I feel the need to step in and nip this in the Bud now (As a Rep of Spacial Audio and a human being)

1st - I believe BOTH parties here are to blame, I'll certainly claim responsibility from the Spacial Audio camp for sure.

We all know what Shoutcast drectory is - and what it brings. We have always done our best to provide support for most "all" directory listings/services possible. We do our best to follow and maintain any and all guidelines for proper methods of touching 3rd party .yp lists as well.

However, I've failed to contact Nullsoft and or establish a "real" relationship so that when issues such as this arrise, we could have known about them ahead of time and acted accordingly. Believe me that will not occur again and I will actively seek out a closer relationship with the Nullsoft camp from here on out.

The Previous hesitations for doing this in the past where due to Louis and I being pushed off of the original Shoutcast developers lists. so we kinda felt that the Nullsoft was telling us something with that action, so we've sat idly back thinking basically we where not welcomed.

Also Nullsoft is in no way obligated to let us know their every move and or future intentions, "just" as Spacial Audio is not obligated to let them or anyone know ours. That is simply business folks!

Tom I do take a small offense to the statement -

"whoever developed the mp3pro solution did so without discussing any of it with us" -

Because as you know Tom, companies are not obligated to discuss and or announce their intentions, just as you had previously not let anyone know (until recently) about the issues with mp3Pro and or any other formats and your nsa/nsv encapsulation requirement. So, In my mind then in this case we've BOTH failed in communications - but then just as you would never tell us what your intentions are in development, of course we would not have either.

We will certainly do everything needed to comply if possible, but please don't make the mistake of blaming ours or any company for developing something and or supporting a sepcific format and then NOT telling you about it before hand? I mean Come on - that is each developers right and in the case of business, necessary. You would do the same and do indeed do the same. It's YOUR Business..

When we intially integrated mp3Pro support there where no such rules (that we nor anyone else knew of?) regarding this encapsulation method and frankly the Shoutcast server sees the format as it is, an mp3 format and we did nothing different at all to "specifically" adapt it for streaming via Shoutcast DNAS. So we naturally assumed all is well. We "thought" we had complied with the correct methods for shout .yp touch and until now have not known anything otherwise.

In the end however, folks the Shoutcast .yp directory belongs to AOL/Nullsoft and if they want to implement any particular rule and or method for listing there that is "Their" right and it is our resonsibility to comply -

It's as simple as that so please get off the negatives regarding their decision. I don't question it. I will simply comply if at all possible and you can expect that here on out I will accept Tom's offer and contact him direct so that Louis can bring the mp3Pro and other formats to complaince. I will also strive to acheive a much closer relationship between the Nullsoft camp and our Company so that in the future we can hopefully avoid isses such as this.

If anyone is guilty of anything involving this matter it's BOTH of us (Tom and I) for not coming toghether in the past and working more closely toghether. Simply put - we had a communication problem. We can fix that..

So ppl, quit fighting over this issue - Tom and I will hook up and we will resolve it. Pointing fingers and figthing over things is NOT going to help and indeed if all of us do not come toghether soon and work towards the "same" goals there simply will NOT be a Small/Hobbiest Internet Radio Industry left as Large Corp will squeeze us all out.

Bryan Payne
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Old 8th March 2004, 18:40   #100
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Okay, I'm going to kick something in here.. since I use MP3Pro on a 24kbps/17khtz/32khtz station.

If you look at the sound difference from the 24k 22khtz and the 17khtz, the sound differences are not as dramatic as you are all making it out to be. In fact, most of my listeners do not even notice the difference from when we were standard MP3 and when we transfered to MP3Pro. but when they DO load the plugin, they notice the difference (Since we are able to deliver a 32khtz LC Stereo feed instead of a 22Khtz mono feed). Now, I realize that this might not be 'standard', but it is a backwards compatable technology.

What shoutcast cares to do, is their own perrogative. But don't bag on something that helps alot of people on old school modem connections get a decent internet radio experience on a delivery method that is tried and true, and is supported by almost every StreamHosting provider (Which is one reason I do not use Icecast... not nearly enough support on the market for the tech.)

Now I can somewhat understand what Tom is trying to do, but I really think the menthods of "Do this or else" are not a productive way of handling this. Instead, perhaps we can work through this and have them show us HOW we can make the streams we use acceptable to whatever they are wanting.

Also, on the note that the streams sound worse or better... I want to note that Shoutcast.com does NOT list the khtz range on the station.. which is only thing that changes in an MP3Pro stream.. so weither I was streaming at 11khtz at 24kbps or 22khtz @ 24kbps (Which is a HUGE difference in sound quality), the listeners would ever know by looking atthe Shoutcast.com directory.. but when they tuned in.. they would DEFINATLY know.

Instead of getting a bunch of people angry.. perhaps lets just fix the current system... and banning everyhing that isn't MP3 streaming.. I really don't think that's the answer we're needing. Shoutcast.com is for all technologies that are able to be played by the Nullsoft Winamp software and are able to be Streamed over the Shoutcast software... I think THAT should be the focus we should be looking at....

Just my own .02 cents. ** Puts on Flame Retardant Suit **
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Old 8th March 2004, 18:57   #101
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Quote:
Originally posted by jesseg
Rob facts are not just facts when you make stuff up dude. First off you have no comprehension of what muxing is, so you dont even understand the very simple changes that have to be made by Spacial Audio.

I also dont think you should be mad at anyone, but you should be disturbed that Spacial Audio sold you a plugin that interfaces with someone else's server, and developed the whole thing without even so much as telling Tom about it. That's what you should be upset about.

And that's the truth as I see it. I dont expect you do, cause you're still here saying the same things over & over.

Also Spacial Audio are the only people that have ANY kind of code that can stream mp3pro, no matter what the server is that i know of. I've outsearched google many times in years past looking for such software, to no avail. If there was something else, it would have already been plastered all over these forums, duh.

The simple truth in all of this is that you have given Tom zero and you have given Spacial Audio something for a peice of software that they didn't even attempt to council Nullsoft about.

I do feel sorry that you have wasted your money with Spacial Audio (in your mind). But seeing as you havn't given Tom anything, and you dont even understand the problem, I dont understand how you can say anything about his free software (and the free YP listings) without either donating lots of money, beer, food, etc.

Jesse,

In all business, especially regarding development most companies do not tell or express their intentions to the others -that is "Standard" business practice and allows for companes to internalise things and keep a better hold on it's intentions of useage and implementation.

Do NOT fault us for doing what everyone (including Nullsoft) does to protect it's own interests.

As for "interfacing" with someone else's product, (in this case the Shoutcast server DNAS), There is nothing that states we MUST contact Nullsoft to do this or "fill them in on our intentions? Did any other developer have to contact them? Did Oddsock? Does any of the other myriad number of plugin developers have to ?

Simply put - Nullsoft openly invites 3rd party development by the simple fact that they release and make publically available their develoment SDK's. A developer bases his guidelines on Terms in these SDK's and as far as I know as long as those guidelines are followed the developer can do as he pleases including "monetize" and or sell for a fee their product. Seems to me MANY ppl and companies indeed do this with ALL types of plugins for Winamp and or Shoutcast.

I will admit we (Spacial Audio) are guilty for not having a better relationship with the nullsoft team but as I posted in my previous post,we will try and remedy that - but frankly in respects to this current matter you are wrong and make it out like this is all our fault because we would not elaborate publically with our development and or business intentions/plans. Would the Nullsoft team have? Would you have?

We are not the bad guy here - Nullsoft is not the bad guy either. They have a policy, we will comply - it's as simple as that so ppl please quit pointing the blame towards either of us - and quit fighting amongst each other internally.

We can fix it - we have the means, we have the Technology, we just need that Bigfoot guy and a 2 million dollar woman

And FYI Jess? - a few ppl on this list do indeed work for us and they do indeed know "the Deal"

Bryan
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Old 8th March 2004, 20:25   #102
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Quote:
Originally posted by DJ AmPs


Shoutcast's decision to drop mp3pro from the directory is not the end of the world guys.
Let me clarify myself:

It's not so much the dropping the mp3PRO streams, it's the fashion and rhetoric involved with this happening that has me mad. It's not something Spacial Audio can fix, not something Thompson can fix. Only Nullsoft can fix this one.

One one hand Nullsoft has banned mp3PRO streams because the developer did not communicate with them concerning their program.

On the other hand Nullsoft did not communicate with any developers that this was a requirement and was not detailed in the SDK available to developers. If it was a requirement it should have been so detailed in the developers package.

Nullsoft also did not communicate to anyone that they were banning the mp3PRO streamers. They banned people with no announcement nor any reason behind the bans. The only way people knew they were banned was to examine their logs to see they have been delisted.

See my issue here yet?

If Nullsoft wants communications from one group of people, it seems to me they should do the same with the people using their software and those who make up the community whom without there would be no community, no directory and no Shoutcast.

If you expect communications from developers, we expect the same from you as long as we use the software. If we get it is another story entirely.

I guess it wasn't worth the two minutes it could have taken to make a post letting people know in XX days mp3PRO streams would be delisted. I guess it's just way too much to ask. Funny is the fact that it likely took much longer to code the ban into the YP as opposed to a few minutes to post something letting us know that action needed to be taken quickly.

"What we have here is failure to communicate".

My beef has little to do with if I can use PRO or not, it has to do with the utter disrespect Nullsoft had for it's own end users in the way the ban took place and their own lack of communications about it happening - before, during or after it occured.

It's their directory, their software and their reputation. They can do with it as they want.

That is my beef. I'm done with this now since all I have to do is wait for the SA staff to get a fix for this, which knowing their reputation will be pretty quick.y

Thinking the same about Nullsoft will not happen nearly as quickly.

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Old 8th March 2004, 20:39   #103
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Bryan, I'm glad you came on here to clear some things up from your side. I'm definately not saying anyone should be blamed, blame is for loosers who need to dwell on the past without making something real happen.

It is simply of my opinion that nobody can tell Nullsoft what to do whatsoever (reguarding shoutcast), since nobody has ever paid them for any of it. Spacial Audio on the other hand sells the encoders, and even if you dont want to listen to your customers (which is not the case thankfully) it still doesn't mean that you have to do what they want (which also seems to not be the case thankfully)

I was just trying to get (cough) Rob to see that, which whatever. I have nothing left to say to him, and he me, which is all good. I hope he gets something out of what you and Tom have said, and can hopefully see something good coming out of this whole NSV mux issue as I certainly do.

Btw Oddsock does have a close relationship with Nullsoft (from what i've heard) despite also coding very popular stream ripper software. How cool is that?

I also agree with your view that your keeping Sam's mp3pro support totaly hush till you released it is "standard" business practice. I wouln't run mine with "standard" business practices, but as you say that's my business too. =)

Ultimately the community (even outside of shoutcast) will benefit from having a rigid standard, and by being open and communicative. If opensource software (free & commercial) in comparison to "standard" businesses like Microsoft (who pay other companies to hamper linux growth) doesn't drive that fact home, then I dont know what does.

Even though I'm not a customer of yours, and not really entitled to give you feedback really (not as if i would have that right anyways) I'm really glad that you are making an effort to work together. The last thing we need is more reasons to split this community, lest it be more likely to be squashed by the suits. I agree with everything you've said.
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Old 8th March 2004, 20:52   #104
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All:

Don't panic.

Bryan from SA got ahold of me, and we're moving toward a solution. I'm considering listing mp3pro streams published with the appropriate spec back into the "classic" shoutcast directory but with the bitrate reduced to more accurately reflect their equivalent bitrate in terms of mp3, i.e. 64kbps mp3pro -> 48kbps mp3. i'm not sure that's the right idea either since people rely on the bitrate value to determine if they can listen to the stream.

it's a mess.

i'll also admit i didn't do the best job of PR in this matter. since bryan's in touch I'll reinstate the streams within the directory for the time being until the appropriate solution is arrived at. my apologies to bryan for coming down on SA, the communication issue is definitely two-sided and i pay a part in the blame of not better embracing the third party community. we'll work on that.
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Old 8th March 2004, 22:55   #105
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Peppert,

Perhaps there's a way that you could list the Khtz range for the station as well as the Bitrate.. since that would better reflect on ALL stations how it will sound... For Example

Shoutcast MP3
24kbit 22khtz

MP3Pro
24kbit 17/32khtz (Or just 17 if your dealing with just the MP3 portion)

That way people will be able to see fairly easily what streams are MP3 and MP3Pro, without some wierd coding on your side to "Translate" stream bitrates into MP3 equivelents..

Just .02 more cents.. might have a dollar if I keep this up.

~k1
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Old 8th March 2004, 23:54   #106
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Quote:
Originally posted by keiichi000
Peppert,

Perhaps there's a way that you could list the Khtz range for the station as well as the Bitrate.. since that would better reflect on ALL stations how it will sound... For Example

Shoutcast MP3
24kbit 22khtz

MP3Pro
24kbit 17/32khtz (Or just 17 if your dealing with just the MP3 portion)

That way people will be able to see fairly easily what streams are MP3 and MP3Pro, without some wierd coding on your side to "Translate" stream bitrates into MP3 equivelents..

Just .02 more cents.. might have a dollar if I keep this up.

~k1
unfortunately, that wouldnt be possible without a few changes to the dnas and dsp. currently they only send the kbps to the yp.

as far as this situation goes, i dont see what the big commotion is all about. Tom has already stated that you can still broadcast in mp3pro, no problem. the only thing different is your station wont be listed in the yp. and if you still see that as an issue, you have a problem. cuz as reliable the yp is, it should not be used as a sole source of advertisement for your station.

in either case, i applaud this move and welcome the next version of shoutcast with open arms. i am just anxious to get cracking on aac.
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Old 9th March 2004, 01:22   #107
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err wrong any one can determine frequency it would just require a little decoding algorithm for the data. This is all possible with CGI or PHP.
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Old 9th March 2004, 12:28   #108
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The way I look at it, there is no need to panic at the moment. I use Spacial Audios SAM, and I stream in MP3pro at 56kbps. I am a big fan of MP3pro, and it seems that even though I will not be listed in the YP at shoutcast, My station listeners can still hear my stream in MP3pro as before. I have received NO listeners that I know of, or at least very few from the Shoutcast directory, and rely on listeners finding me in search engines, word of mouth, link exchanges, advertising, and all the others, rather than being listed in shoutcast.

I have all the confidence in the world that Spacial Audio, Winamp, and the internet broadcasting community will all come together very soon. There are many new formats to consider, and I am sure all station owners will be looking heavily into all options. Right now, I am choosing to remain where I am..in MP3pro, and not listed on the shoutcast directory. Those are the breaks as I see them for myself, and I anticipate that all will come together very soon.

Hats off to all the devolopers of these amazing tools, and kudos for trying to pull everything together, and at least try to standardise things a bit.
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Old 9th March 2004, 14:15   #109
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Tom,

I think you should keep the listing accurate as to the actual Kbps. Kbps is Kbps regardless of sound quality... if I decide to run lame with -b 128 --lowpass 5000 -q 9, that's my perogative... I don't think it's up to the directory to decide the "perceived" kbps.


-amps
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Old 29th March 2004, 00:55   #110
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I thought the streams where going to be reinstated? I waited for 3 weeks for my streams to come back on the listing and finally I can't wait any longer and have to move back to standard MP3.

Is the ban going to be removed or not? If it is when?

I know spacial audio is working on the solution and shoutcast agreed to relist, but i have seen anything yet.
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Old 29th March 2004, 02:24   #111
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remove mp3pro from your description.
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Old 29th March 2004, 02:51   #112
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My only concern with doing that is the banning threat that came through. I hate to chance getting permanently banned, but then again shoutcast said they would relist us and haven't yet.

Can we get an official word from SC on this?
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Old 29th March 2004, 06:39   #113
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(a) remove mp3pro from description
(b) it's not "banning" you, it's just not listing you cos you have "mp3pro" in your description or server name.
(c) read the whole thread...
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Old 11th October 2004, 02:20   #114
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This is a very long thread. Can someone point out why having mp3PRO in your discription will remove you from being listed on shoutcast?
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Old 11th October 2004, 04:51   #115
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having "mp3pro" in your description won't have you removed, it just won't allow you to be listed. why? cos there's a programatic ban against it (at the time this thread was active)

i'm not sure as to the status of the "mp3pro" description ban atm... so kinda speaking theoretically, arn't i? :P
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Old 11th October 2004, 04:56   #116
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reason is, mp3pro is not a standard format. also, in the next version of shoutcast, there will be support for multiple formats like mp3, aac, ogg, etc. by default in the server, dsp, and yp so they wanna make sure that the current mp3pro format doesnt get into v2 of shoutcast and cause havoc.
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