Old 12th May 2004, 18:10   #41
marvinbarcelona
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Quote:
Originally posted by ElChevelle
He fabricates (never provides links) to further his agenda.
I'd like this backed up with evidence or an apology.

It's been said that I could start an arguement in an empty room.....I see no reason to disbelieve this.
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Old 12th May 2004, 18:50   #42
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Quote:
Originally posted by marvinbarcelona
... was being removed from the country by the US military. Why? What had he done? Was he a mercenary?
If he was being removed by the US military, how did the twits capture him?

One last thing before I sign out of this topic:
Watch this, then tell me he deserved it.
They didn't behead Berg like any other country with something neat and clean like a guillotine.
I'm severely sickened and would allow myself to be hooded, pissed on and kept naked for the rest of my life before I suffered that fate.
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Old 12th May 2004, 19:07   #43
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Chev, remember this bit from my earlier post?

Quote:
I've only just woken up and I've heard very little information so far. But there are a couple of points I'm very unclear on;

What evidence have you offered that I've fabricated (nice word for lie) anything? The fact you are signing out of this topic without backing up your statements speaks volumes.

Ah, well.

It's been said that I could start an arguement in an empty room.....I see no reason to disbelieve this.
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Old 12th May 2004, 19:12   #44
ElChevelle
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2 posts back!
He was being removed by the military.
BULLSHIT!
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Old 12th May 2004, 19:38   #45
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Quote:
Originally posted by ujay
The true evil is that those who profit from this war are not the ones who make the sacrifices.

edit1: It can't operate in any other way and still be effective as an army, this is it's nature and something that cannot be blamed.

edit2: Outside of Hollywood it is very difficult to get your ordinary decent human being to kill another. It is, and always has been, the most difficult part of military conditioning, simply because the supply of bloodthirsty maniacs is so small. All the tactical training in the world is useless if the willingness to use it is absent.

UJ
I, principal, I agree with you, to apoint, in that those who make the sacrifices don't make the profits from a war. But I'm not exactly sure how the rest of that proves your first post about the army requireing others to be able to brutalize other human beings. Although, I agree with you that getting people to kill one another is a huge problem.

marvin, your side is very interesting in that from your first post, you imply that any mercanaries deserve to die. Although yes, i know, you never said that.

But at this point, after reading your posts here and elseware, you seem to be going from being anti-American govt to simply trying to find something wrong with anything the US (ok, US government) is doing in the middle east. Nothing is as fun as like blaming people for stuff, right?

on a side note, elchevelle, where's the link to that?
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Old 12th May 2004, 19:40   #46
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"Berg's brother David on Wednesday told reporters outside his family's house that the U.S. position is false. He said the family received e-mails from Berg after his release in which he made clear he had been held by U.S. forces."

CNN

Still waiting....

It's been said that I could start an arguement in an empty room.....I see no reason to disbelieve this.
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Old 12th May 2004, 19:46   #47
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What you guys don't see is that you are both wrong. The reason I say this is because, neither of you know for sure if he was held by the US or not. The Media has said that he was and he wasn't. The Military says he wasn't and the family says that he was.

Until both sides (family and the mility) agree on the same way, stop arguing .


My opinion on the matter, he didn't deserve it. I say this because, I dont believe even Usama Bin Laden deserves the same fate. I am against murder/capital punishment/killing of any kind.

I came for the hatred.
I stayed for the ballbag.
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Old 12th May 2004, 19:48   #48
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Well d0rk, you are correct. As you can see from my first post very early this morning, I was unsure myself;

Quote:
I've only just woken up and I've heard very little information so far. But there are a couple of points I'm very unclear on;
01. A telecomunications worker leaves his small buisness to travel to Iraqi to find work there and fails. How did he support himself and why couldn't he find work?
02. He was arrested by the police over there and was being removed from the country by the US military. Why? What had he done? Was he a mercenary?

It's been said that I could start an arguement in an empty room.....I see no reason to disbelieve this.
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Old 12th May 2004, 19:59   #49
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marvin, i didn't know anything this morning either but i didn't think he was a mercenary or anything like that. i didn't even think of mercenaries until you started putting that stupid mercenary crap in your posts. from what i've heard, BERG WAS NOT A MERCENARY.

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Old 12th May 2004, 20:01   #50
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mikeflca, as this section of the forum is about breaking news and current events etc. the Middle east isn't known for happy stories. Threads get started, they sound interesting, so I join them.

I would certainly agree that I am anti-American goverment, I don't think theres any arguement there. I'm also anti-UK goverment. I critise goverments when they do something that I believe is wrong. I think that is what you are supposed to do in a democracy. Its easy to agree with everyone when they are the majority, but it is harder to disagree when you are the minority. I just never understood the attraction in an debate where everyone agrees.

War should never be entered into lightly, nor should it be waged for politcal gain or the wrong reasons. Everything should be done to avoid war. The rush to this war seems not to followed these ideals. Maybe I am wrong to believe that goverments should be above reproach, that their actions should be open and honest. But I do honestly believe they should be, maybe that naive. But I'd rather be naive and let down, then just accept that goverments must always be corrupt.

I don't ask special consideration, but I do ask that my opinions and views are not dismissed or subject to baseless accusations, just because they differ from your own. Debate can be fun, interesting and enlightening. But when everyone agrees....its not a debate.

It's been said that I could start an arguement in an empty room.....I see no reason to disbelieve this.
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Old 12th May 2004, 20:04   #51
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what the heck are you talking about marvin?

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Old 12th May 2004, 20:13   #52
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deeder, I've been accused of various things recently. It seems to stem from the fact that I have different views from a few people here and they just don't like it.

I was also responding to mikeflca last post.

It's been said that I could start an arguement in an empty room.....I see no reason to disbelieve this.
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Old 12th May 2004, 20:28   #53
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i know you've been accused of some things recently, i can read. i'm not stupid. your opinion is simply disagreed with by many in this forum and they are saying it.

There is no sig.

Last edited by deeder7001; 12th May 2004 at 21:01.
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Old 12th May 2004, 21:08   #54
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At this point, it doesn't matter why Mr. Berg was in Iraq. It doesn't matter whether he was a mercenary or not. It doesn't matter whether he was detained by the US or not. What does matter is that he was butchered by a group of Islamic extremists (whom, in my opinion were nothing but cowardly criminals too afraid to show their faces) and no one deserves to die in the manner of which he was murdered.

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Old 12th May 2004, 21:08   #55
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Never said you were stupid, mate, never said anything of the kind. You asked what I was going on about and I explained. Many people have simply disagree with me, which is fine, but some have accused me of things that are baseless. I don't respond well to that.

It's been said that I could start an arguement in an empty room.....I see no reason to disbelieve this.
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Old 12th May 2004, 21:43   #56
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Quote:
Originally posted by marvinbarcelona
It seems to stem from the fact that I have different views from a few people here and they just don't like it.
aparently you don't like people to disagree with you. who ever said that we didn't like your views? we simply DON'T AGREE WITH YOUR VIEWS. and i never said that you called me stupid.

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Old 12th May 2004, 21:47   #57
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Chev, I think that video drives home the kind of people there are in this world. I have seen animals butchered that way and believe me it is not a good way to go.
It is easy for us to sit behind a computer screen in the luxury afforded by the first world places we live in and criticize and judge while sipping tea/starbucks whatever. I believe one day all things will have to be accounted for. This is just another stain on humanity's record.

I am so important I feel the need to let it be known like a liberal discovering the internets for the first time. Uh hur hur hur. I also wash myself with a rag on a stick.
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Old 12th May 2004, 21:55   #58
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Quote:
i know you've been accused of some things recently, i can read. i'm not stupid. your opinion is simply disagreed with by many in this forum and they are saying it.
Is anyone reading there own posts here?????

Quote:
and i never said that you called me stupid.

It's been said that I could start an arguement in an empty room.....I see no reason to disbelieve this.
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Old 12th May 2004, 22:07   #59
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Mods: can we have this moved to GD?

I am so important I feel the need to let it be known like a liberal discovering the internets for the first time. Uh hur hur hur. I also wash myself with a rag on a stick.
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Old 12th May 2004, 22:13   #60
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marvin, i was just saying that i've read the other posts. i don't just post in a thread where i don't know what's going on. now you are insinuating that i am stupid, that i don't know what i'm writing.

insinuating means suggesting

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Old 12th May 2004, 22:17   #61
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Quote:
Originally posted by hgnis
Mods: can we have this moved to GD?
There ya go!
Now we can talk about Michael Berg being decapitated by a bananaphone
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Old 12th May 2004, 22:40   #62
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Quote:
Originally posted by marvinbarcelona
mikeflca, as this section of the forum is about breaking news and current events etc. the Middle east isn't known for happy stories. Threads get started, they sound interesting, so I join them.

I would certainly agree that I am anti-American goverment, I don't think theres any arguement there. I'm also anti-UK goverment. I critise goverments when they do something that I believe is wrong. I think that is what you are supposed to do in a democracy. Its easy to agree with everyone when they are the majority, but it is harder to disagree when you are the minority. I just never understood the attraction in an debate where everyone agrees.

War should never be entered into lightly, nor should it be waged for politcal gain or the wrong reasons. Everything should be done to avoid war. The rush to this war seems not to followed these ideals. Maybe I am wrong to believe that goverments should be above reproach, that their actions should be open and honest. But I do honestly believe they should be, maybe that naive. But I'd rather be naive and let down, then just accept that goverments must always be corrupt.

I don't ask special consideration, but I do ask that my opinions and views are not dismissed or subject to baseless accusations, just because they differ from your own. Debate can be fun, interesting and enlightening. But when everyone agrees....its not a debate.
interesting. you seem to assume that I think we were right in invading Iraq and that I support the bush administration. both of those assumptions are incorrect. I don't find anything wrong with thinking or stating that a govt is doing something wrong. However, you seem to be working to find fault with anything the US does. that's all i said. And, people who try to find a problem with everything that someone or something does kind of pisses me off. But, I've already stated my thoughts on blame.

the middle east isn't known for happy stories? really? I never would have known this after looking at the subject of this thread

As for your notes about something not being a discussion if everyone agrees, yes, that's true. In that case, the only discussion we could really have on this topic is whether or not he deserved it, and I think everyone (including marvin) agreed that the guy didn't. So i guess there isn't too much to discuss in the first place...

on another note, isn't it amazing how quickly this thread broke down into people bullshitting each other and quoting themselves? hehe. I would almost prefer a bananaphone
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Old 12th May 2004, 23:07   #63
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Chev's official stance on this entire thread:
  • The war on Iraq:
    I was never in favor of it and knew when Bush Jr. took office, that was part of his agenda. We went into Afghanistan in search of "Alan Kyda" but ended up dethroning the Taliban. Where Iraq figured into the equation as the next step, I have no idea. If we were to dethrone Saddam for atrocities against his people, Kurds, Iranians (in the form of biological warfare) and others, we were more than a decade late.
  • Civilians working in Iraq:
    We have civilians working in most every country in the world. If not for humanitarian reasons, they are there for financial gain or as an emissary of goodwill. While I can believe that there are westerners in Iraq as interrogators, torturers, mercenaries, that is not what I dispute. I dispute the incessant claims that any American must be there for reasons other than humanitarian efforts, financial gain or charity.
  • The purported torture of POW's:
    I have no doubt that there is a small, and I do mean small, percentage of Allied forces in Iraq who for some reason, most likely a deep hatred for terrorists, have commited unacceptable atrocities against POWs. To blame the entire military is like blaming the African American people for Michael Jackson's fondness for children. I served my country not only out of love for freedom but because I needed the real life experience. As I said, I won the humanitarian medal and there are thousands more in Iraq and Afghanistan who deserve the same. On a daily basis, they put their lives on the line. They may not agree with it but it is their duty and honor to uphold the oath. REMEMBER, they are not all there to kill, kill, kill. The vast majority hold positions that are vital to the people of a wartorn land ie. potable water treatment, communications technicians, medical personnel and so forth.
  • Democratic duties:
    Contrary to what was expressed, I do not sit on my hands except for the 4 year ballot punching. I am almost on a first name basis with a congressman and a senator from my state and have met several representatives in the past. I write, not e-mail, them at every glance of corruption and they have heard alot from me the past few years. Word of mouth is king and as most of you know, I am as vocal as anyone, especially where I feel a wrongdoing has been committed. I speak about politics whenever and whenever I can except for the rare ocassion at bars where it is sacriligious to do so.
  • Uncorroborated postings:
    I never post or quote anything which I cannot sustantiate. I am intelligent enough not to believe everything I read or hear and in cases such as this, I am headstrong. I want links to the news story even though I know it may be false as most stories are when they first go to print. Don't post your unstantiated opinion guessing that each American has contempt on his mind. Remember that the media is a rat race with each news service trying to best the other. The facts will eventually surface. To wake up, read a partial story, then post here believing it true is assinine indeed and no excuse if you want credibility in a debate.

    Thanks to those who made it through this post and to those who didn't, don't misquote me again.
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Old 12th May 2004, 23:11   #64
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And what would we do if they came here and overthrew our country and took us all prisoner and abused us?

Never underestimate the bandwidth of a station wagon full of tapes hurtling down the highway.
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Old 12th May 2004, 23:15   #65
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Quote:
Originally posted by k_rock923
And what would we do if they came here and overthrew our country and took us all prisoner and abused us?
If you are trying to reverse roles, we didn't take the entire country prisoner and abuse them. We live in a democratic society and have a constitution that must be upheld, therefore never allowing the president to act on his own and commit genocide against us therefore not necessitiating the use of force by a foreign military.

[/end theory]
I hope
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Old 12th May 2004, 23:19   #66
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regardless, we'd be pretty pissed off and i sure don't think its out the question that a few american radicals would do something similar.

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Old 12th May 2004, 23:21   #67
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Few American radicals?
What? Kill thousands of our own people?
Where did that ever make sense unless you were trying to block anarchy from dethrowing you from your dictatorship?
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Old 12th May 2004, 23:28   #68
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Haggling over who's been harsher to who's prisoners isn't the point.

There's a big misconception about the 'war on terror'....everone's acting like ist's something new. Here in the UK a terrorism war has been going on for centuries - in ireland. sure, times have changed....but fundamentally the reasons and concepts are similar.

The fact is, Ireland proved two things very well (and now Iraq/afghanistan etc is doing the same, and everyone seems surprised).....

1) FIGHTING FIRE WITH FIRE WILL NEVER WORK. Eye-for-an-eye tactics will get no-one anywhere, except dead.

2)IF YOU DON'T WANT TO BE ATTACKED, UNDERSTAND WHO'S ATTACKING YOU AND ***WHY***.

Personally I believe that al-qu'aeda have LEGITIMATE REASONS for being pissed off. Nothing will justify their methods and their extremity. But then again I and the rest of the west thought rightly that Saddam Hussein was evil. But nothing will justify the methods and extremity of our governments' recent actions.

Fact is, terrorists are not mad. Madmen cannot organise attacks like the ones we've seen while evading the CIA. They have motivation. they have their reasons. And it's not just extreme interpretations of Islam. It's western provocation. We don't realise we're provoking them....but we are. The USA's treatment of israel/palestine, for example.

I have no wish to see another person ever die in the way Nick Berg did. Never ever ever. but the only way we'll ever stop that happening is to understand why someone would want to do that. We love to think we'd never ever be the type of person to perpetrate something like that...but you'd be surprised what people will do under certain circumstances.

Iraqis are not evil. saddam was evil. But then again, we supported saddam for long enough, we shoulda figured that out years ago.


Ladies and gentlemen, indirectly but very importantly.....we have blood on our hands. Including Nick Bremer's.
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Old 12th May 2004, 23:37   #69
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I want to see the transcripted translation of Michael Berg's murderer's speech.
He's speaking in arabic for like 5 minutes, then the screams.......ughhhhhh
I need to know if he was rambling on about crap or if he had a serious issue and point to get across.
Was he bored and a psychotic killer or is he indeed killing for his cause?
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Old 12th May 2004, 23:46   #70
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@jest: The only people who really have his indirect blood on their hands are those who abused prisoners and took pictures of it.

But I think that it is good that someone at least brings that point up.
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Old 12th May 2004, 23:48   #71
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As regards the discussion a few posts ago about armerican radicals and whether or not they would be capable of such crimes.....

"I Toiled Wholeheartedly in the vineyards because it was fun, fun, fun. Where else can a red-blooded American lie, kill, steal, rape and pillage with the sancion and blessing of the almighty?" - quote from an ex-CIA operative regarding his involvement on CIA operations testing biological weaopns - on american civilian populations.

Ok, so he was no renegade/extremist/radical.....but combine this kind of behavior and attitude in the CIA with the attitude of the NRA, and add in a dose of the still-surviving KKK....America's not that pretty a country. Not saying the UK or anywhere in the middle east are....but no amount of flag-waving will hide the fact that people capable of beheading a man can crop up anywhere.
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Old 12th May 2004, 23:53   #72
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Is anyone else bored by this thread?

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Old 12th May 2004, 23:53   #73
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Quote:
Originally posted by mikeflca
@jest: The only people who really have his indirect blood on their hands are those who abused prisoners and took pictures of it.

But I think that it is good that someone at least brings that point up.
I would question that. We're the ones that went to war. we're the reason for these murderers' grievances. ok, so they may have possibly been linked to, and were certainly supportive of, the guys who fly planes into our buildings....but why did they do that in the first place? Yeah.....at some level, i feel like i have blood on my hands. Loosely, as a product of my country's history...more directly, as a product of my lifestyle and that of those around me. I am ashamed of the way the western world works in relation to the rest of the globe. And now we're starting to reap the consequences.


All this on the website of an MP3 Player?!?!?! Maybe there is some hope left for political discourse.

("oh but Winamp's more than an MP3 player", i hear you cry..."It's a way of life!!!" )
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Old 12th May 2004, 23:56   #74
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Quote:
Originally posted by LollipopLustKil
Is anyone else bored by this thread?
Then don't look at it.....
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Old 12th May 2004, 23:58   #75
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Watch me.

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Old 13th May 2004, 00:07   #76
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Quote:
Originally posted by LollipopLustKil
Watch me.
As your sig implies, if you have nothing worthwhile to say, stay out.
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Old 13th May 2004, 00:12   #77
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It is true that the current US administration looks at the rest of the world with arrogance, but, that doesn't really justify anything like this.

They (the people who beheaded that guy and others like him)are just looking for someone to blame. But let me get this straight.

Because we put military bases over there, they now have the right to fly planes into buuldings? I don't think we should have gone into Iraq, but that simply doesn't justify 9/11 or this.

At the very least, I respect you for being most likely the first person to think that maybe, just maybe, we are the ones to blame here. But the US existing = justification for flying planes into buildings? uh, no.
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Old 13th May 2004, 00:18   #78
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I'm still waiting for the video.

I was the first person to reply to the thread, asking for this, and I have yet to recieve it.

I would sit here and debate with these people, but I already did in History and Debate class. It tends to bore me after awhile.

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Old 13th May 2004, 00:21   #79
ElChevelle
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Quote:
Originally posted by LollipopLustKil
I'm still waiting for the video.
Didn't read the thread, did you.
Quote:
Originally posted by ElChevelle
Watch this, then tell me he deserved it.
They didn't behead Berg like any other country with something neat and clean like a guillotine.
I'm severely sickened and would allow myself to be hooded, pissed on and kept naked for the rest of my life before I suffered that fate.
I recommend not watching before dinner.
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Old 13th May 2004, 00:31   #80
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No, I didn't read the thread except the last few posts.

Now that I've seen the video, I'm done bothering you all. If I see something else to respond too, I'll join in.

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