Old 16th May 2004, 14:57   #121
eleet-2k2
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Quote:
Originally posted by ElChevelle
The guy was alleged to be a mercenary. What else would he be doing there? Therefore, he had it coming.
That's what I got from earlier "conjecture".

The video disturbed me so much I had trouble quelling the images when I went to bed last night. It mattered not that he was American, no one deserves that kind of death.

By the way, thanks to WomanOfHeart for the transcript. It read like a Dr. Seuss novel but get a vague idea of why they did it.












Because they're PSYCHOTIC MURDERERS!
Nick Berg was not a mercenary, he was there tryign to make money setting up telecommunication equipment, thus he was an innocent civilian, killed for no other purpose than to retalliate at the Americans (uselessly).

"Welcome to the Island of people who know too much."..."Did you really think balloons would stop him?!"
See what I'm listening too.
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Old 16th May 2004, 15:14   #122
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incidentally, a relation of mine works for one of the companies who is setting up telecommunications in iraq right now (on the british side). so this is getting a wee bit too "real" for me...

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Old 16th May 2004, 16:34   #123
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Q:
Quote:
Becuase?...Bush and Cheny were in the video with the masks? Or Bush and Cheny didn't stop worring about the rest of the United States and focus only on what every single american was doing at every single instant in Iraq?
A:
Quote:
Or maybe because Bush and Cheney started that war and turned Iraq into a playground for terrorists?
Thanks gaekwad2. Couldn't have answered better myself.
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Old 16th May 2004, 16:38   #124
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I see, because I guess terrorists didn't exist in Iraq before the war.
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Old 16th May 2004, 16:38   #125
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Quote:
Originally posted by eleet-2k2
Nick Berg was not a mercenary, he was there tryign to make money setting up telecommunication equipment, thus he was an innocent civilian, killed for no other purpose than to retalliate at the Americans (uselessly).
That's how I feel. I was merely referring to earlier posts by other posters who made headlines up as they went. Some people's opinions are clouded by bias.
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Old 16th May 2004, 19:22   #126
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Quote:
Originally posted by dlinkwit27
I see, because I guess terrorists didn't exist in Iraq before the war.
Apparently they didn't. Dictators who push a secular society, don't get along too well with Islamic terrorists. Especially when the Islamic terrorists have vowed to throw the dictator out. See, this is why the US supported Saddam into power and helped maintain him in power.

It's been said that I could start an arguement in an empty room.....I see no reason to disbelieve this.
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Old 16th May 2004, 19:30   #127
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Quote:
Originally posted by aFfLiCtEd
Q:

A:

Thanks gaekwad2. Couldn't have answered better myself.
but if he was over there and bush didnt start the war, he would have still been captured and tortured... he was jewish, in iraq, had been to israel (with the stamp on his passport)... he was either an idiot, or not as innocent as we think...

i hate bush just as much as the next guy, but its hardly his fault that some guy (who didnt have to be there/shouldnt have been there anyway) got killed by terrorists

There is no reset button on life... but the graphics kick ass
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Old 16th May 2004, 21:24   #128
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Quote:
Originally posted by electricmime
but if he was over there and bush didnt start the war, he would have still been captured and tortured... he was jewish, in iraq, had been to israel (with the stamp on his passport)... he was either an idiot, or not as innocent as we think...

i hate bush just as much as the next guy, but its hardly his fault that some guy (who didnt have to be there/shouldnt have been there anyway) got killed by terrorists
But Bush DID start the war causing the residual fallout which just so happens to include the beheading of Berg in retaliation for the treatment of prisoners ... in the war that Bush started.
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Old 16th May 2004, 21:35   #129
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And Jerry Johnson made Dylan and Kliebold kill their fellow stuidents. After all he helped write one of the video games that they played

So with that logic, there are millions of murderers in America (those who voted Bush into office.
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Old 16th May 2004, 21:39   #130
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Quote:
Originally posted by dlinkwit27
I see, because I guess terrorists didn't exist in Iraq before the war.
No... They were/are hiding out in afghanistan with Laden ... another war Bush started and failed miserably at. IF any were in Iraq, they weren't fucking with us.
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Old 16th May 2004, 21:42   #131
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There's nobody to blame for Berg's death but Berg himself.
Nobody forced him to go over there, he voluntarily went on his own.
And after he got in trouble, we offered him a free plane ride home, and he refused it.
So it doesn't matter who, how, or why the war was started,
it's his own fault for being there and putting himself in the position he was in.

And Bush didn't start the war in Afghanistan,
Osama Bin Laden did when he attacked the World Trade Center,
or have you conviently forgotten about that day?
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Old 16th May 2004, 21:42   #132
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Quote:
Originally posted by ElChevelle
And Jerry Johnson made Dylan and Kliebold kill their fellow stuidents. After all he helped write one of the video games that they played

So with that logic, there are millions of murderers in America (those who voted Bush into office.
Your illustrated "logic" fails to apply here.
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Old 16th May 2004, 21:45   #133
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Quote:
Originally posted by papadoc
And Bush didn't start the war in Afghanistan,
Osama Bin Laden did when he attacked the World Trade Center,
or have you conviently forgotten about that day?
Point well taken. I stand corrected.
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Old 16th May 2004, 22:48   #134
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Osama bin Laden never was president/leader/whatever of Afghanistan. Bush did start the war against Afghanistan after the Taliban (remember them?) refused to hand over Bin Laden.
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Old 16th May 2004, 22:53   #135
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We fought Afghanistan?
I thought we fought the Taliban.
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Old 16th May 2004, 23:00   #136
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@ geakwad2:

No he didn't start the war against Afghanistan!
He responded to an attack on our country by Osama Bin Laden
who happened to be holed up and headquartered in Afghanistan.
And Osama Bin Laden was the leader of The Taliban,
who also were using Afghanistan for their base of operations.
It was also Osama Bin Laden and The Taliban who were controlling Afghanistan,
against their wishes.
That war was never against Afghanistan or it's people.
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Old 16th May 2004, 23:03   #137
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We basically diverted a long assed coup and re-instated the existing government.
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Old 17th May 2004, 00:08   #138
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Osama Bin Laden never was the leader of the Taliban.

The Taliban were originally supported by the CIA and the Pakistani secret service because these geniuses thought they'd end the civil war in Afghanistan.

In a way they were successfull. And all their crimes against humanity probably wouldn't have mattered if they hadn't offered Bin Laden and his Al Qaeda organisation a safe haven.

At that point the Taliban were the existing government of Afghanistan.
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Old 17th May 2004, 00:09   #139
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Osama was the leader of the Al Queda or however the fuck they spell it these days.

I could of sworn it was Usama the last time I saw it on the news.

Scotty Doesn't Know
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Old 17th May 2004, 00:43   #140
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Quote:
Originally posted by aFfLiCtEd
Your illustrated "logic" fails to apply here.
Why isn't it the same thing?
Your "logic" says that the beheading of Michael Berg was George Bush's fault. So the guy with the knife is innocent and George Bush is guilty?
That would make the people who voted Bush into office accomplices......using that logic.

My "illustrated logic" suggests that if that is the case, then music and video games were to blame for the Columbine killings.

Bullshit logic, of course.

Chev's easy to understand understanding of above so-called logic:
-Bush caused an American to lose his head.
-Music caused students to be shot.
The killer is never at fault.
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Old 17th May 2004, 01:07   #141
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The error of this logic is saying one person and only one person is responsible.

There were lots of factors that contributed (and of course the people who voted for Bush are also responsible for his actions, though, remember, he wasn't elected) so the beheading of Michael(?) Berg was a lot of people's fault, not least that of Mr. Bush.
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Old 17th May 2004, 01:10   #142
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Quote:
Originally posted by gaekwad2
The error of this logic is saying one person and only one person is responsible.
Mass responsibility.
Quote:
Originally posted by gaekwad2
Bush did start the war against Afghanistan after the Taliban (remember them?) refused to hand over Bin Laden.
Mass responsi..........errrr
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Old 17th May 2004, 01:40   #143
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Quote:
Originally posted by ElChevelle
Why isn't it the same thing?
Your "logic" says that the beheading of Michael Berg was George Bush's fault. So the guy with the knife is innocent and George Bush is guilty?
That would make the people who voted Bush into office accomplices......using that logic.

My "illustrated logic" suggests that if that is the case, then music and video games were to blame for the Columbine killings.

Bullshit logic, of course.

Chev's easy to understand understanding of above so-called logic:
-Bush caused an American to lose his head.
-Music caused students to be shot.
The killer is never at fault.
Cause and Effect. Bush caused an unneccesary war. Berg was beheaded as part of the effect. I'm of opinion that this would not have happened whether Berg had business being in Iraq or not if there hadn't been an unneccesary war in progress with the obvious & ongoing residuals.
No, the guy with the knife is not innocent. But would he have had a cause to behead Berg had GW not launched the war in Iraq?? Not likely.

The Columbine killings pale in comparison toward any logic encompassed in the topic of this thread. Expanding that logic would fault the kids' parents and the parents' parents and their parents, and ..... well, ... you get the point.
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Old 17th May 2004, 02:08   #144
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I blame the guys that cut off his head, but then, that's just me.....

And, although I'm not sure exactly how we got Afghanistan into this debate, I think we were justified in attacking the taliban.

@chev: I agree with you in principal, although your "example" is pretty bad. Your "illustration" would only be valid if the kids would not have done the killings if it wasn't for the music/video/whatever they watched. I doubt anyone here honestly believes that people really kill others because say saw a movie. The idea is a rediculous defense in a trial, and nothing more.

Do I think the guy would have been beheaded if we hadn't invaded? Probably not. So therefore does Bush share a little blame? yes. However, I think that once you start pointing at bush, it has gotten to be so indirect that it is unimportant. so, I blame the killers.
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Old 17th May 2004, 02:17   #145
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I have no references to back this up but if I remember correctly there were terrorists in Iraq while Saddam was in power. I believe he provided financial support and training for terrorists attacking Israel. And because of his connections to these terrorists it is believed that he might possibly have had contact with Bin Laden. But because of Bin Laden’s fundamental religious differences with Saddam, I would guess their communication was somewhat “frosty”. The Taliban on the other hand had a religious view much more similar to Bin Laden’s, so they were much more receptive to al Queda.
As far as I can tell Bush’s “war on terror” in Iraq has basically done for Iraq what the Soviet Union’s occupation and subsequent departure from Afghanistan did there, make it possible for a Muslim extremist government (the Taliban) to take control and then allow Muslim extremist terrorists to operate without restriction. So we have a pretty good example that a socialist/communist form of government isn’t the answer in predominantly Muslim Middle East country. Past history has also shown colonial governments don’t fare much better. Imperial/dictatorship governments (much the same as Saddam’s) seem to fare the best. But I guess we will have to see if a capitalist/democracy can survive, or even get started.

Last edited by m0e; 17th May 2004 at 03:36.
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Old 17th May 2004, 02:34   #146
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stuff like this happens, it's sad yeah but it happens. the only thing that makes me real mad about it is the liberal media (cnn - the communist news network) taking the opportunity to stick a knife in our entire armed forces and to stick a knife in our administration in the white house. want to put it all into perspective?


read that. and then watch cnn for a day.
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Old 17th May 2004, 02:55   #147
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Yes, Bin Laden was leader of Al-Queada, not the Taliban.
I got them crossed, my bad.
But they both go hand in hand anyway.

And your'e naive to believe that Berg wouldn't have been beheaded,
if we weren't in a war in Iraq.
It's very likely he would because he was Jewish,
and our enemies are in a holy war against Jews and Christians.
Even his own father admitted that.

And it's a war we can't win, because we can't fight like they do.
We get all bent out of shape because of the way we treated our prisoners,
while they cut off the head of their prisoner.
We're bound by a moral highground, while they couldn't care less about morals.
We're bound by the rules of the Geneva Convention,
and they have no regard for those rules.

Last edited by papadoc; 17th May 2004 at 03:23.
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Old 17th May 2004, 02:59   #148
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The leader of the Taliban was Mullah Omar, who is still a fugitive. FYI.

Now is the time for all good Americans to come to the aid of their Country
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Old 17th May 2004, 03:22   #149
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Quote:
Originally posted by papadoc
And your'e niave to believe that Berg wouldn't have been beheaded
if we weren't in a war in Iraq.
It's very likely he would because he was a Jew,
and our enemies are in a holy war against Jews and Christians.
And it's a war we can't win, because we can't fight like they do.
We get all bent out of shape because of the way we treated our prisoners,
while they cut off the head of their prisoner.
We're bound by a moral highground, while they couldn't care less about morals.
We're bound by the rules of the Geneva Convention,
and they have no regard for those rules.
Did you read ANY of the translated transcription submitted by WomanofHeart??
Quote:
And we beg from you that you do not be involved as usual in the denial of what will do it satisfaction of the Americans

He has ordered the prophet - peace be upon him - and he is master the merciful are with the slitting of the necks of some prisoners and their slow killing

And for us it is an example and a good example

As for you, the Roman dog Bush, I hope you are displeased and we wait for you with God's Help tough days and you and your soldiers today who tred Iraq's land will regret it.

We demand of the American and will take revenge for the blood of our brothers in and Iraq and elsewhere
This hardly indicates that Bergs' religious beliefs were the cause of his beheading.
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Old 17th May 2004, 03:27   #150
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You believe terrorists?
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Old 17th May 2004, 03:28   #151
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Did they behead Berg??
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Old 17th May 2004, 03:29   #152
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I guess he does, Chev

Berg's father said his son was Jewish
and had a fringed religious cloth with him,
but he did not think Berg wore the clothing in public.
Still, "there's a better chance than not
that they knew he was Jewish," Michael Berg said.
"If there was any doubt that they were going to kill him,
that probably clinched it, I'm guessing."
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Old 17th May 2004, 03:37   #153
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1) He was a civilian, therefore not a warrior, making him an illegal target according to the Quran.

2) He was there on his own accord, helping the Iraqi people, making his murder easier to condemn by Arabs.
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Old 17th May 2004, 03:45   #154
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Quote:
Originally posted by papadoc

Still, "there's a better chance than not
that they knew he was Jewish," Michael Berg said.
He had a passport with a Star of David stamp on it from visiting Israel before Iraq - for some that would be all the "Jewness" they needed to accuse him of being a Mossad spy.

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Old 17th May 2004, 03:49   #155
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Quote:
Originally posted by papadoc
I guess he does, Chev

Berg's father said his son was Jewish
and had a fringed religious cloth with him,
but he did not think Berg wore the clothing in public.
Still, "there's a better chance than not
that they knew he was Jewish," Michael Berg said.
"If there was any doubt that they were going to kill him,
that probably clinched it, I'm guessing."
It's not a question of whether or not I believe terrorists, rather that they meant what they said and they said what they meant. The mere fact that they're terrorists doesn't imply they're liars. Extremists' ... yeah.
Otherwise, all I detect in your post is "chances" and "guesses" assumed by Bergs father.
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Old 17th May 2004, 04:03   #156
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Quote:
Originally posted by aFfLiCtEd
Otherwise, all I detect in your post is "chances" and "guesses" assumed by Bergs father.
You're guessing that they meant what they said.

They accomplished 2 tasks:
1) Kill a Jew
2) Kill an American
What more did they need?
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Old 17th May 2004, 04:07   #157
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Try again chev.
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Old 17th May 2004, 04:08   #158
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Quote:
Originally posted by aFfLiCtEd
Did you read ANY of the translated transcription submitted by WomanofHeart??
To answer your question, yes I read the transcript, and it's an insult to my intelligence!
You don't seem to feel the same way.
So I refuse to believe anything they say, except that they want to kill us all.
The mistreatment of Iraqi prisoners was just an excuse to kill another American Jew.
And Berg just happened to have put himself in the position to be that person.
You can deny that all day if you like, but that's how I see it.
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Old 17th May 2004, 04:26   #159
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I doubt he would have been killed if he we weren't in Iraq. Sorry, Papodac, but there is more evidence that he was killed as a (indirect) result of the invasion of Iraq than there is for your argument, which appears to be that he was killed mainly for being a Jew. I doubt* (edit) that most of the people who took part in the beheading would even be in Iraq today if we hadn't invaded.

Yes, he put himself in that position, no doubt about that, but you can hardly blame the guy for his own beheading. I'm not sure what you are trying to prove by that idea of him putting himself in that position.
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Old 17th May 2004, 04:27   #160
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@ papadoc
It's an insult to ANYONES intelligence, and I DO feel the same way. I am in NO WAY defending or supporting what they did.
They said .. "We demand of the American and will take revenge for the blood of our brothers in and Iraq and elsewhere ... with the slitting of the necks of some prisoners and their slow killing"....and THEY DID IT!
I'm sorry but I'm having difficulty with your statement "But I refuse to believe anything they say" when they in fact carried out their word and the evidence is splattered all over the internet.

Indeed the mistreatment of Iraqi prisoners was just an excuse to kill another American who just so happened to be a Jew, although I'm hesitant to believe that he "put" himself in that position, rather he just happened to "be" in that position.
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