Old 16th June 2004, 13:01   #1
zootm
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Cloning.

This research is good, in my opinion.

The first request by British scientists to clone human embryos is being considered by the Human Fertilisation and Embryology Authority on Wednesday.

If the Newcastle researchers' bid is successful, they would investigate using stem cells from the cloned embryos to treat diabetes.

It could open a new era of research by scientists looking for remedies for incurable diseases.

But other scientists believe therapeutic cloning is unethical.

Experts from the HFEA have already inspected the laboratories at the International Centre for Life in Newcastle, where the work is due to take place.

Should human cloning be allowed?
The Stem Cell Group, led by Dr Miodrag Stojkovic, from the Institute of Human Genetics at Newcastle University, and Professor Alison Murdoch, from the Newcastle Fertility Centre, plans to use the same technique that was used to create Dolly the cloned sheep.

Therapeutic cloning has been legal in Britain since 2002.

It involves cloning embryos and harvesting stem cells from them. The embryos are destroyed before they are 14 days old and never allowed to develop beyond a cluster of cells the size of a pinhead.

If the Newcastle research does go ahead, it is likely to be welcomed by doctors, who hope cloned cells may one day be used to treat conditions ranging from strokes and spinal cord injuries to Alzheimer's and motor neurone disease.

Professor Murdoch told BBC Radio 4's Today programme that the research was one of the "most exciting areas of medical development in many years".

Controversial

She claimed that although the science is similar to reproductive cloning, the aims are completely different.

"We are trying to create material that would be genetically identical to the person who needs treatment.

Cloned embryos
Stem cells would be used to treat diabetic patients

"If you have a 10-year-old child who has diabetes in Newcastle now, the likelihood is he is going to have to take insulin for the rest of his life.

"Maybe in 10 years time when we can get these technologies working we can take a skin cell from him to actually make some cells which will actually make insulin for that boy.


"We can't take an embryo or any cells from anybody else and make insulin for him because if they were put back into him they would be rejected," she said.

Alastair Kent, from the Genetics Interest Group - which represents 130 charities of families living with a genetic condition, said millions could potentially be helped by the results of this research.

He rejected concerns about using embryos for research, saying: "It is a matter of balancing the rights and needs of those people who are alive now with a very remote potential future person.

"If we don't do the research, and it does have the potential, then we are not only ignoring the needs of those who are alive now, but also all future generations as well."

But the research would prove controversial, with protests expected from religious and anti-abortion groups and by those who fear allowing therapeutic cloning could pave the way to allowing the creation of cloned babies.

Dr David King, molecular biologist and director of anti-cloning pressure group Human Genetics Alert, along with six other scientists and ethical experts has written to HFEA chairwoman Suzy Leather asking her to reject the application.

The planned research is irresponsible, unethical, scientifically weak, unnecessary and politically motivated, they say.

Dr King said: "This research is a waste of public money, and crosses important ethical lines for the first time.

"It is very unlikely to produce anything medically useful, but will be a great help for those who want to clone babies."

The world's first cloned human embryos were created by scientists in South Korea in February and a similar experiment has also been conducted in the US.

Cloning human embryos for therapeutic purposes was made legal by an amendment to the Human Embryology Act in January 2001.

But cloning humans for reproductive purposes remains illegal and is punishable by a 10-year prison sentence and unlimited fines.

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Old 16th June 2004, 17:54   #2
Namelessv1
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Re: Cloning.

Quote:
Originally posted by zootm
This research is good, in my opinion.
I agree. I see no problem with utilizing cloning in this manner. They're not attempting to bring about a new life; they're merely trying to save and improve an existing one.
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Old 16th June 2004, 20:57   #3
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Yeah, Hitler wanted to improve life too!

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Old 16th June 2004, 21:20   #4
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this sounds like good news

all the people talking about how they are going to kill a human life....they are morons.
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Old 16th June 2004, 21:45   #5
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Quote:
Originally posted by CaboWaboAddict
Yeah, Hitler wanted to improve life too!
Hitler never tried to cure diabetes. Nevertheless, I don't see how your comparison makes any sense.
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Old 17th June 2004, 00:26   #6
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Quote:
Originally posted by Dawg4Life2K1
Hitler never tried to cure diabetes. Nevertheless, I don't see how your comparison makes any sense.
Hitler had scientists trying to improve the 'master race', or didn't you know that? They tried all sorts of experiments to that end. I was just commenting on your observation on improving life...

Quote:
Originally posted by Dawg4Life2K1
they're merely trying to save and improve an existing one.
Experimentation by butchering human life is wrong, no matter what good comes from it. The end does not justify the means.

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Old 17th June 2004, 00:41   #7
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Quote:
Originally posted by CaboWaboAddict
Experimentation by butchering human life is wrong, no matter what good comes from it. The end does not justify the means.
Do you have the faintest idea what therapeutic cloning means?

Genetic scientists are well aware of the ethical problems that come with experimentation on a full human life form. That's why the very distinction between therapeutic cloning and "plain" cloning (as most people understand it) is you don't allow human life to develop in therapeutic cloning. You're just after the stem cells, which are induced to grow into specific cells for therapeutic purposes.

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Old 17th June 2004, 01:42   #8
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Quote:
Originally posted by CaboWaboAddict
Hitler had scientists trying to improve the 'master race', or didn't you know that? They tried all sorts of experiments to that end. I was just commenting on your observation on improving life...
No shit, Sherlock. Of course a crazed idiot is going to try to justify his actions by calling his experiments to find new implements of death a "creation and purification of the master race." However, you apparently cannot distinguish the difference between that and the use of stem cells, not whole humans, to quite possibly end a significant portion of human suffering that goes on daily.
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Old 17th June 2004, 01:43   #9
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Cabowabo has a knack for speaking out against things that he knows NOTHING about.
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Old 17th June 2004, 02:50   #10
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Im in the states and here since it is illegal, many diseases that we could be treating right now are not being studied. I am a medical student under a doctor doing research for pediatric phase Muscular Dystrophy. He thinks there would be a cure for this if he could use stem cells.

When i become a doctor, hell yes im moving to another country where research is not restricted by others.


I mean, these stem cells are already going to be trashed (they get them from maternity clinics or such) might as well use them for some good. Its not like im raelian.
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Old 17th June 2004, 02:58   #11
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wow....this is funny as hell....well not really funny but still....cabowabo talking about stem cells....i doubt he even knows what they are....

once you pull your head out of wherever it is, don't worry dude, they all come around eventually....

I don't mean to flame. However people like this who hope to screw others over for no reason and are clueless as to what they are talking about just piss me off, especially on this issue.

edit: @cabowabo: do you disagree with this research on religious grounds or for other reasons? if so what reasons? -just curious.
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Old 17th June 2004, 18:02   #12
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Quote:
Originally posted by billyvnilly
Im in the states and here since it is illegal, many diseases that we could be treating right now are not being studied. I am a medical student under a doctor doing research for pediatric phase Muscular Dystrophy. He thinks there would be a cure for this if he could use stem cells.
When i become a doctor, hell yes im moving to another country where research is not restricted by others.
I mean, these stem cells are already going to be trashed (they get them from maternity clinics or such) might as well use them for some good. Its not like im raelian.
Its illegal because its morally wrong. And the argument for using aborted fetal material is not valid either for the same reason - abortion is morally wrong.

Quote:
Originally posted by Germ
Cabowabo has a knack for speaking out against things that he knows NOTHING about.
Among lots of other articles, here is one that comes to mind...
http://stemcells.nih.gov/index.asp
Specifically this...
http://stemcells.nih.gov/info/basics/basics3.asp
Have you read anything about it? Embryonic Stem Cell research destroys an embryo. Are you too dense to understand that? It is human life. What's next, experimenting on your little sister?

Quote:
Originally posted by mikeflca
wow....this is funny as hell....well not really funny but still....cabowabo talking about stem cells....i doubt he even knows what they are....
once you pull your head out of wherever it is, don't worry dude, they all come around eventually....
I don't mean to flame. However people like this who hope to screw others over for no reason and are clueless as to what they are talking about just piss me off, especially on this issue.
What the fuck is up with you people? I express an opinion, and everyone FLAMES me. I don't remember reading in the rules that it was OK to flame unpopular opinions.

mikeflca, why did you reduce the size of that flame? Hoping no mods would notice? Well Here ya go:
Quote:
Originally posted by mikeflca
cabowabo talking about stem cells....i doubt he even knows what they are....
once you pull your head out of wherever it is, don't worry dude, they all come around eventually....
I don't mean to flame. However people like this who hope to screw others over for no reason and are clueless as to what they are talking about just piss me off, especially on this issue.
Quote:
Originally posted by mikeflca
edit: @cabowabo: do you disagree with this research on religious grounds or for other reasons? if so what reasons? -just curious.
This was a decision I reached while in a drunken stupor! Mas Tequila!
Seriously, I have read quite a bit on the subject, and this is my feelings, plain and simple.

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Old 17th June 2004, 18:23   #13
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The question than is...what makes that small, insignificant cluster of cells a human? I respect your opinion Cabo, but how do you justify that that cluster is a human. Just because it has the potential to become a human does not make it human. Its like yelling at someone when they use a condom during sex citing that the sperm are destoryed. Just because sperm has potential (or the egg) does not make it human.
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Old 17th June 2004, 19:08   #14
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Quit the infighting and talk about the issues.
Fuck cloning, we've got too many mouths to feed now.
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Old 17th June 2004, 19:27   #15
Namelessv1
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Quote:
Originally posted by CaboWaboAddict
Its illegal because its morally wrong. And the argument for using aborted fetal material is not valid either for the same reason - abortion is morally wrong.
Scientists aren't aborting fetuses to get to the stem cells. Would-be mothers are choosing to abort fetuses for whatever reasons they may have. Researchers are merely salvaging what has already been done, regardless of whether abortion is right or wrong. Would you rather have the remains simply discarded when they could possibly save someone else's life?
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Old 17th June 2004, 20:02   #16
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zootm
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Cloning.
This research is good, in my opinion.

The first request by British scientists to clone human embryos is being considered by the Human Fertilisation and Embryology Authority on Wednesday.

If the Newcastle researchers' bid is successful, they would investigate using stem cells from the cloned embryos to treat diabetes.

It could open a new era of research by scientists looking for remedies for incurable diseases.

But other scientists believe therapeutic cloning is unethical.

Experts from the HFEA have already inspected the laboratories at the International Centre for Life in Newcastle, where the work is due to take place.

Should human cloning be allowed?
The Stem Cell Group, led by Dr Miodrag Stojkovic, from the Institute of Human Genetics at Newcastle University, and Professor Alison Murdoch, from the Newcastle Fertility Centre, plans to use the same technique that was used to create Dolly the cloned sheep.

Therapeutic cloning has been legal in Britain since 2002.

It involves cloning embryos and harvesting stem cells from them. The embryos are destroyed before they are 14 days old and never allowed to develop beyond a cluster of cells the size of a pinhead.

If the Newcastle research does go ahead, it is likely to be welcomed by doctors, who hope cloned cells may one day be used to treat conditions ranging from strokes and spinal cord injuries to Alzheimer's and motor neurone disease.

Professor Murdoch told BBC Radio 4's Today programme that the research was one of the "most exciting areas of medical development in many years".

Controversial

She claimed that although the science is similar to reproductive cloning, the aims are completely different.

"We are trying to create material that would be genetically identical to the person who needs treatment.

Cloned embryos
Stem cells would be used to treat diabetic patients

"If you have a 10-year-old child who has diabetes in Newcastle now, the likelihood is he is going to have to take insulin for the rest of his life.

"Maybe in 10 years time when we can get these technologies working we can take a skin cell from him to actually make some cells which will actually make insulin for that boy.

"We can't take an embryo or any cells from anybody else and make insulin for him because if they were put back into him they would be rejected," she said.

Alastair Kent, from the Genetics Interest Group - which represents 130 charities of families living with a genetic condition, said millions could potentially be helped by the results of this research.

He rejected concerns about using embryos for research, saying: "It is a matter of balancing the rights and needs of those people who are alive now with a very remote potential future person.

"If we don't do the research, and it does have the potential, then we are not only ignoring the needs of those who are alive now, but also all future generations as well."

But the research would prove controversial, with protests expected from religious and anti-abortion groups and by those who fear allowing therapeutic cloning could pave the way to allowing the creation of cloned babies.

Dr David King, molecular biologist and director of anti-cloning pressure group Human Genetics Alert, along with six other scientists and ethical experts has written to HFEA chairwoman Suzy Leather asking her to reject the application.

The planned research is irresponsible, unethical, scientifically weak, unnecessary and politically motivated, they say.

Dr King said: "This research is a waste of public money, and crosses important ethical lines for the first time.

"It is very unlikely to produce anything medically useful, but will be a great help for those who want to clone babies."

The world's first cloned human embryos were created by scientists in South Korea in February and a similar experiment has also been conducted in the US.

Cloning human embryos for therapeutic purposes was made legal by an amendment to the Human Embryology Act in January 2001.

But cloning humans for reproductive purposes remains illegal and is punishable by a 10-year prison sentence and unlimited fines.


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Old 17th June 2004, 20:04   #17
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Hmmm. That looks familiar.

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Old 17th June 2004, 20:55   #18
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Quote:
Originally posted by Semantics
The question than is...what makes that small, insignificant cluster of cells a human? I respect your opinion Cabo, but how do you justify that that cluster is a human. Just because it has the potential to become a human does not make it human. Its like yelling at someone when they use a condom during sex citing that the sperm are destoryed. Just because sperm has potential (or the egg) does not make it human.
Using a condom is preventing conception by preventing the sperm and egg from joining. It is not the same as killing a fetus that already has life.

A fertilized egg is more than just potential human life. At conception the fetus has unique human DNA and life.

A child has the potential to become an adult human same as a fetus. Does that mean that its ok to experiment on a child? Where do you draw the line on being human? Does the act of passing out of a uterus make us human? Does the act of conception create human life? If you say no, then any collection of cells could be said to be not human. Does rational thought make us human? Then a newborn isn't human? Is it Ok to experiment on your newborn baby?

The only rational point to declare a human life is at conception.

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Old 17th June 2004, 21:46   #19
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Not true. A more rational point would be where the phoetus began to learn, or feel.

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Old 17th June 2004, 21:56   #20
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Quote:
Originally posted by Dawg4Life2K1
Scientists aren't aborting fetuses to get to the stem cells. Would-be mothers are choosing to abort fetuses for whatever reasons they may have. Researchers are merely salvaging what has already been done, regardless of whether abortion is right or wrong. Would you rather have the remains simply discarded when they could possibly save someone else's life?
CaboWabo would rather "save" some rotting dead fetus than SAVE another life...wow that sounds morally just.



@CaboWabo....actually the "fetus" (if you would like to call it that) is not distinct until it reaches a cluster of 32-50 cells. STEM CELLS are the cells up to this point basically.

And dont use words like "only" and "rational", it is a horrible arguement when you have to use words like these. Absolutes have no place in arguements.

Now would you consider the "fetus" a fetus instantly at conception, or would you give it the few hours a sperm needs to disolve and let its DNA mix with the cell? OR would it be after the first meiosis, where the cells start forming with both sets of DNA?
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Old 17th June 2004, 21:58   #21
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They can clone me if they want......but with a cloned horsecock.
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Old 17th June 2004, 22:04   #22
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Quote:
Originally posted by ElChevelle
They can clone me if they want......but with a cloned horsecock.
wouldnt you eventually go and find and kill the guy...i mean hes you...just...uno...better.

If a girl had her choice: an apple...or an identical apple with a hundred dollar bill attached to it.
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Old 17th June 2004, 22:05   #23
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i do not agree with you Cabo. Perhaps the line should be drawn at where life is actually life...not just something feeding off something. An embryo is not "life" anymore than all the "life" in my arm. And why put humans in such a special catagory? I believe in god and souls, and all that, but life is life, any way you slice it...just because humans can think better than a cow or pig, does not make it special...so, unless your a vegan and against all animal testing (which has saved lives), your point could be considered moot.
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Old 18th June 2004, 03:55   #24
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.... I thought there was just a tad bit of a difference between "cloning" -vs- "conception".... BUT ........ sometimes it doesn't pay to think.
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Old 18th June 2004, 04:59   #25
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@cabo: i was being sarcastic (yeah, i already know i have a lame sense of humor). the decreased size stuff was more of a note to anyone who read it. anyway.....

When someone compares abortion to stem-cell research i get the impression that they know little on the subject. comparing abortion to stem-cell research is a lame argument, and here's why.

in abortion, the life/fetus/thing/whatever-you-want-to-call-it
would otherwise have a future and that is being stopped. Here, we are talking about a small cluster of cells that has no future or life at all. Given that they would otherwise be discarded if not used, the argument against stem-cell research is basically:

"no, we can't help others by killing them, we should kill them without helping anyone."

in other words, abortion is "we are going to stop a life", while stem cell research is "there is no life to stop." pretty simple really.

Quote:
Are you too dense to understand that?


I don't think anyone is "killing them" because at that stage there is not living organism, only living cells. I'm sure you know the difference there.

On another note, i think the title of this thread is misleading.....not that it really matters anyway.

Quote:
What's next, experimenting on your little sister?
I hope you aren't serious....


Quote:
What the fuck is up with you people?
I feel like saying that same thing, given that some people want to "protect a human life" by throwing it into a trash can instead of saving lives with it.


Quote:
A child has the potential to become an adult human same as a fetus.
you said it yourself. The problem with your argument now is that stem cells have no potential because they would be discarded anyway. at least, the ones in the in vitro clinics. would you be happier if only those were used instead?

well, i look forward to a discussion.......

also, i hate to sound like a little bitch (as i am about to), but, here we go....

WHY is it morally wrong?
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Old 18th June 2004, 13:07   #26
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Let me answer each point...

Quote:
Originally posted by zootm
Not true. A more rational point would be where the phoetus began to learn, or feel.
Does that mean that someone that can't learn has no right to life? I guarantee you, if you went to a hospital and killed off the irreversable comatose vegetable of your choice, you would be charged with murder. Why, if there is nothing wrong with it?

Quote:
Originally posted by billyvnilly
CaboWabo would rather "save" some rotting dead fetus than SAVE another life...wow that sounds morally just.
@CaboWabo....actually the "fetus" (if you would like to call it that) is not distinct until it reaches a cluster of 32-50 cells. STEM CELLS are the cells up to this point basically.
And dont use words like "only" and "rational", it is a horrible arguement when you have to use words like these. Absolutes have no place in arguements.
Now would you consider the "fetus" a fetus instantly at conception, or would you give it the few hours a sperm needs to disolve and let its DNA mix with the cell? OR would it be after the first meiosis, where the cells start forming with both sets of DNA?
I can use those words because it is my opinion. It doesn't matter to me what you call the cluster of cells. To me life begins at conception. In my opinion, conception occurs when the egg absorbs the sperm cell and then prevents other sperm from entering.

Quote:
Originally posted by Semantics
i do not agree with you Cabo. Perhaps the line should be drawn at where life is actually life...not just something feeding off something. An embryo is not "life" anymore than all the "life" in my arm. And why put humans in such a special catagory? I believe in god and souls, and all that, but life is life, any way you slice it...just because humans can think better than a cow or pig, does not make it special...so, unless your a vegan and against all animal testing (which has saved lives), your point could be considered moot.
So, by your reasoning, a breastfeeding baby is not a human life? I have not brought theological ideas to the table , you have. It sounds like my beliefs differ from yours in that area too, but that is for another thread. I am not a vegan - far from it. Why exactly does that invalidate my opinion? If your arm is not human life as you suggest, then someone could easily present a case for legalized cannibalism. That's how little water your argument holds.

Quote:
Originally posted by mikeflca
@cabo: i was being sarcastic (yeah, i already know i have a lame sense of humor). the decreased size stuff was more of a note to anyone who read it. anyway.....
When someone compares abortion to stem-cell research i get the impression that they know little on the subject.
Ok, I accept that.

Quote:
Originally posted by mikeflca
comparing abortion to stem-cell research is a lame argument, and here's why.
in abortion, the life/fetus/thing/whatever-you-want-to-call-it would otherwise have a future and that is being stopped. Here, we are talking about a small cluster of cells that has no future or life at all. Given that they would otherwise be discarded if not used, the argument against stem-cell research is basically:
"no, we can't help others by killing them, we should kill them without helping anyone." in other words, abortion is "we are going to stop a life", while stem cell research is "there is no life to stop." pretty simple really.
Where we disagree, is that I feel the abortion part of the eqation is morally wrong also. The cells come from somewhere. If they are from an abortion, I feel that is wrong. If they are conceived in the lab, with no hope of ever developing into an adult, I feel that is basically the same. It is denying a life from reaching its potential. The only case that I would feel would be acceptable, would be in the case of a natural miscarriage.

Quote:
Originally posted by mikeflca
I don't think anyone is "killing them" because at that stage there is not living organism, only living cells. I'm sure you know the difference there.
I feel you're wrong as I stated before. I believe life begins at conception - so in any case, it would be killing the cells.

Quote:
Originally posted by mikeflca
I hope you aren't serious....
I was using a dramatic example to demonstrate my point.

Quote:
Originally posted by mikeflca
I feel like saying that same thing, given that some people want to "protect a human life" by throwing it into a trash can instead of saving lives with it.
I feel it should never reach the point of being thrown in the trash. It should not have been conceived in the first place.

Quote:
Originally posted by mikeflca
you said it yourself. The problem with your argument now is that stem cells have no potential because they would be discarded anyway. at least, the ones in the in vitro clinics. would you be happier if only those were used instead?
If you agree with my statement, how can you say that they have no potential? At conception, each embryo has the potential to become an adult human. Aborting that life in any manner is wrong. In my opinion, conceiving a life in a lab with no possibility of development, is the same as an abortion.

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Originally posted by mikeflca
WHY is it morally wrong?
As I stated elsewhere, this is my beliefs based on my research. You are free to develop your own. If you want a theological discussion, start a new thread - that I may or may not participate in.

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Old 18th June 2004, 14:43   #27
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Good job staying with the thread. I know some people that would run away after seeing so much opposition.

simply for reference, if i was going to flame you, it would be much more to the point, full of insults and in a rather large size, and bold. I'm "to the point".

that said:
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It is denying a life from reaching its potential.
the "life" HAS NO POTENTIAL because it is going to be discarded. That was one of my major points.

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I feel you're wrong as I stated before. I believe life begins at conception
We each have our own viewpoints there, so that's that.

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- so in any case, it would be killing the cells.
so, I guess i should get arrested for genocide when I close the garage door and it squishes some ants? (frickin ants always crawl around under it )

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I was using a dramatic example to demonstrate my point.
Hence the example was an exageration(sp?), but still more or less serious at its base. which I view as utterly rediculous. Stem-cell research leads to human experimentation?

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It should not have been conceived in the first place.
Interesting viewpoint. But, does that mean that we should throw away all the existing ones instead of using them to save lives?

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If you agree with my statement, how can you say that they have no potential?
because they are going to be discarded if they are not used for research. in other words, it is a choice between throwing them away and saving people's lives with them.

ah, wait. when you said fetus i assumed you meant a fetus such as one in a pregnant mother, rather than a group of stem cells. did i make a false assumption there? If you meant stem-cells by fetus i see where that last post of mine would have made no sense. However, keep in mind that we are talking about things that will never grow up, never have that chance to "reach their potential".....well...actualy...they DO have the potential to save/improve millions of lives...and people against stem-cell research are killing that potential......and those million's of lives' potential......hmmmmmm.

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As I stated elsewhere, this is (these are) my beliefs based on my research. You are free to develop your own. If you want a theological discussion, start a new thread - that I may or may not participate in.
point taken.
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Old 18th June 2004, 18:44   #28
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Quote:
Originally posted by mikeflca
ah, wait. when you said fetus i assumed you meant a fetus such as one in a pregnant mother, rather than a group of stem cells. did i make a false assumption there? If you meant stem-cells by fetus i see where that last post of mine would have made no sense. However, keep in mind that we are talking about things that will never grow up, never have that chance to "reach their potential".....well...actualy...they DO have the potential to save/improve millions of lives...and people against stem-cell research are killing that potential......and those million's of lives' potential......hmmmmmm.

point taken.
Thanks for the grmatkle kerecshun! I tuk Evlin Wudhed's Sped Reedn' Korse.

My point is this: where do you draw the line? hence the objectionable example(s).

You make a distintion between a cluster of cells and a fetus. I do not. To me a human embryo is just that: a human embryo.

I ask again where do you draw the line? At conception? at 1 month? at 4? at birth?, how about 1 year? I say you cannot draw a line. I believe that life begins at conception. I doubt that you can prove that wrong. If you can't then your arguments make no sense.

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Old 18th June 2004, 19:18   #29
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agreed, a line must be drawn somewhere. However there are two lines to be drawn: when is life "life" (yeah that sounded lame but you know what i mean) and when is it NOT. that is to say, if you draw the line at conception, then it is as much a crime to kill an ant as it is to killa 40yr old dude.

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I believe that life begins at conception. I doubt that you can prove that wrong.
certainly, CELLS start living at conception. To say that those cells constitue a human being is an opinion.

If life begins at conception, couldnt in-vitro clinics or whatever they are called be sued for holding these people against their will?

realistically this argument(edit: by argument i meant this whole discussion between us 2 [or whoever else is involved])is worthless because we both "know" that we are "right" if you know what i mean.

my main point is that it is pure stupidity to say that we should "save lives" by throwing out stem cells instead of using them to save lives.....i doubt you can refute that. feel free to try though.
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Old 19th June 2004, 18:30   #30
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Let's agree to disagree then. I feel the ant analogy is pointless because it does not have human DNA or a human life potential. And yes, saying those cells constitute a human life is my opinion. I am not trying to refute what you say about saving lives. I'm just saying the premise to the argument is wrong.

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Old 22nd June 2004, 03:35   #31
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I registered in this forum just to say this:

Ethics = plain Bullshit
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Old 22nd June 2004, 03:35   #32
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I registered in this forum just to say this:

Ethics = plain Bullshit
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Old 22nd June 2004, 21:55   #33
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Ding! You just won an ASSHAT!

Mas Tequila!

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Old 23rd June 2004, 19:23   #34
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Quote:
Originally posted by Jonatas83
I registered in this forum just to say this:

Ethics = plain Bullshit
WRONG!
You registered in this forum to say the same thing twice
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Old 24th June 2004, 00:50   #35
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Quote:
Originally posted by Jonatas83
I registered in this forum just to say this:

Ethics = plain Bullshit
In America, you are entitled to speak out about your opinions... This is the Winamp Forums, STFU!

Alex Jones: Do you want the puppet on the right or the puppet on the left? What a bunch of garbage; liberal democrat, conservative, republican. It's all there to control you! Two sides of the same coin. Two management teams bidding for control, the CEO job of Slavery, Incorporated! The truth is out there in front of you, but they lay out this buffet of lies. I'm sick of it, and I'm not going to take a bite out of it, do you got me?
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Old 24th June 2004, 04:43   #36
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Until we can decide on the point at which human life (or perhaps human rights, to be clear) begins, this problem will be unresolveable. It's that simple, really, no matter how much we'd like to finesse the situation.
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Old 24th June 2004, 13:57   #37
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Originally posted by Myxomatosis
In America, you are entitled to speak out about your opinions... This is the Winamp Forums, STFU!
I don't get it... Are you telling him to STFU because he's not in America, or because you're not in America, or because this is a Winamp forum, or are you telling everyone else to STFU?

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Old 24th June 2004, 14:09   #38
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STFU would be a very bad thing to say to ANY member of the forums, especially a God, errr.......Mod
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Old 24th June 2004, 18:45   #39
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man, that would be really nice if they did it, and thank god its not in america, we'll have one less thing to brag about.
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Old 24th June 2004, 18:51   #40
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