Old 2nd February 2005, 20:14   #161
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They all do some times in this case. It seems the religious people can't back up their evidence. He/She still hasn't answered my question. Where is there evidence of the "reality" of god. I want to see some hard data before I change my mind based on what you said, which will never happen.

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Old 2nd February 2005, 20:35   #162
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The evidence for the reality of God is the existence of YOU AND THE WHOLE UNIVERSE. You say it created itself. You think my belief in God is absurd, yet you fail to see the absurdity of your own beliefs.

This whole thread has been an arguement for the existence of God.

Unfortunately, some people only get serious about God when the airplane they are riding in is about to crash - so to speak. They finally come to grips with the reality that THEY are not in control.

Don't take my word for it about God's reality. Ask God to make Himself evident to you. Give Him some time and pay attention. It took ME a long time to finally accept His reality.
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Old 2nd February 2005, 22:15   #163
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Quote:
Originally posted by Vytas
The evidence for the reality of God is the existence of YOU AND THE WHOLE UNIVERSE.
I can see your point on this one (while I disagree) but what I don't get is how you make the link from:
A higher power created the universe
to
The bible is 100% correct on all issues.

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Old 2nd February 2005, 22:31   #164
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Yes I believe the bible is 100% Completely correct too!

You still haven't answered the question I asked with any hard evidence.

I am in existence because my parents mated, and thus here I am. I am made up of molecules and atoms and matter, just as you are.



What did god say to you if he did talk to you?

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Old 3rd February 2005, 00:56   #165
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The weblink above lists so-called contradictions in the Bible. Let's take the first one on the list:

Who incited David to count the fighting men of Israel?
(a) God did (2 Samuel 24: 1)
(b) Satan did (I Chronicles 2 1:1)

(a) is not true. David acted inappropriately to God's anger. That's why Joab objected. In both chapters, several verses later David even admits to God that he had sinned greatly in ordering the count.

Let's take the next one on the list:

In that count how many fighting men were found in Israel?
(a) Eight hundred thousand (2 Samuel 24:9)
(b) One million, one hundred thousand (IChronicles 21:5)

(a) is what Joab actually reported to David. If you read the chapters, in (b) the full number is stated, but Joab leaves out the tribes of Levi and Benjamin, actually reporting the smaller (a) figure to David.

I could go on and on refuting this list if I had the time, but you get the idea. This is indicative of the tactics people use to say the Bible is full of contradictions. Only people who don't know the Bible, or don't know how to read, fall prey to this.

The Bible is the only holy book in history that talks about God existing OUTSIDE THE DIMENSION OF TIME, as in "In the beginning, God...".

Again, IF you will SINCERELY and RESPECTFULLY ask God to make Himself evident to you, He will do so in a manner and timing He chooses. In my case, he created so many so-called coincidences in my life that, knowing the laws of probability, I finally had to admit that they weren't coincidences at all. That was the beginning of the best decision of my life, accepting Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior. I highly recommend it. :-)
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Old 3rd February 2005, 01:36   #166
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Just because you do something doesn't automatically mean that the rest of the world is going to do it too. I believe what I want to believe, you believe what you want, so be it. Don't go forcing your beliefs on me if you don't expect me to disagree with them.

Before the beginning, where was god, what did he just up and decide to create a universe or did he magically zap into existance himself one day? What is your view on how the universe was created.

I really do believe in the big bang theory because it makes much more sense than something just zapping into existance by a ficticious being. And it also seems you forgot about the geologic time scale. Astronomers use information sent back from the Hubble Space telescope and from telescopes here on Earth to measure how old the Universe is. Currently, I believe it is somewhere in the ballpark of 47 billion years old. That is quite some time. Why did god wait so long to create human beings.

What about Adam and Eve.
If all humans came from those too, wouldn't there be a bit of incest going on, because Eve could only have so many children. And if the children mated with eachother, in comes inbreadism. How is it possible that Eve came from Adam's Rib? That doesn't seem to be to me how humans are formed.

Basically what I see the bible as, is just a collection of stories written by who knows how many authors, that has evolved itself over time. There is still lacking evidence of a real life noah's ark too. That thing they found on Mt. Ararat, look closer its just a rock, and in the bible, ITS JUST A STORY!

MAN created god so he could feel better about himself and not have to be alone all the time.
Give up trying to convert me, it aint going to happen.

I would like to see you put ALL of those contradictions to shame. Think you can do it?

Also, if evolutionism is a religion, then by the first amendment bill of rights, I should have the right to practice it then, without anyone trying to tell me any different. Kind of like Atheism.

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Old 3rd February 2005, 01:52   #167
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God created us with a free will. I wouldn't dream of forcing God on you or anyone else. Neither would God.

Even while you disrespect Him, He patiently knocks on the door of your heart, asking to come in and have a relationship with you. If you choose to refuse His gift of an eternal (outside the time domain) relationship with Him, being adopted into His family so to speak, that is your choice. You'll have all of eternity to stew over it.
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Old 3rd February 2005, 02:28   #168
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Highly doubtful.

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Old 3rd February 2005, 02:32   #169
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The emperor has no clothes.
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Old 3rd February 2005, 03:31   #170
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Quote:
I really do believe in the big bang theory because it makes much more sense than something just zapping into existance by a ficticious being. And it also seems you forgot about the geologic time scale. Astronomers use information sent back from the Hubble Space telescope and from telescopes here on Earth to measure how old the Universe is. Currently, I believe it is somewhere in the ballpark of 47 billion years old. That is quite some time. Why did god wait so long to create human beings.
Really, try to explain the Big Bang Theory as anything else than something zapping into existence.


And, for what it's worth, I've given a possible explanation for your last question TWICE now on this forum. I'd copy and paste if I didn't have 8:00 classes tomorrow, but I do, so just look for posts by me in religious threads (they're kinda hard to miss, methinks) and I'll try to reiterate them !!!once again!!! later.
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Old 3rd February 2005, 04:53   #171
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Quote:
Originally posted by will
You make a good point shakey.

I personally think that philosophy has nothing to do with how we got here. I think philosophy is only concerned with how we think. Which, IMO, doesn't affect anything a whole lot.
Which of course would explain why you believe what you do.
If you'd like me to present my reasons of why I think it does, I can.
Of course, likewise, I'd have to say that I don't understand what most geologist think has to do with God creating the universe.
Quote:
Originally posted by will
Also, if i send a child to school, i expect him/her to learn, in science class, the current scientific thinking. That today is evolution. Creationism isn't science, its religion.
So, if this sector of scientific theory has its own class (biology) which is required for graduation (as was in my high school), should we not also require a class for each Christianity, Islam, Buddism and other religions?
What if students are required to study the Scriptures of each of these religions for each of these classes?

Quote:
Originally posted by manthabeats
Just because you do something doesn't automatically mean that the rest of the world is going to do it too. I believe what I want to believe, you believe what you want, so be it. Don't go forcing your beliefs on me if you don't expect me to disagree with them.
And yet you seem willing to do the exact thing you detest...
Quote:
Originally posted by manthabeats
Before the beginning, where was god, what did he just up and decide to create a universe or did he magically zap into existance himself one day? What is your view on how the universe was created.
It has been explained to you before that God is beyond time. Think of it this way: we people are 3.5 dimensional. We can go up,down,left,right,forward,backwards,forwards in time -- oh yep thats the only way we can go. Hence 3.5-D.
God on the otherhand is truly 4-D. He can go forward in time he can go back, he can stay still; its all the same to him. Just as we can use our eyes to stepback and precieve all 3 of the full dimensions around us, he can do the same in atleast 4, and probably an infinate amount of dimensions.
Quote:
Originally posted by manthabeats
I really do believe in the big bang theory because it makes much more sense than something just zapping into existance by a ficticious being. And it also seems you forgot about the geologic time scale. Astronomers use information sent back from the Hubble Space telescope and from telescopes here on Earth to measure how old the Universe is. Currently, I believe it is somewhere in the ballpark of 47 billion years old. That is quite some time. Why did god wait so long to create human beings.
Again time. See above.
Quote:
Originally posted by manthabeats
What about Adam and Eve.
If all humans came from those too, wouldn't there be a bit of incest going on, because Eve could only have so many children. And if the children mated with eachother, in comes inbreadism. How is it possible that Eve came from Adam's Rib? That doesn't seem to be to me how humans are formed.
Even the strongest evolutionists understand inbreeding with a deeper level of understanding than to try to use it to discount creation. They really have nothing in common.
Eve? The common idea is that God proposed a helper that would be never meddlesome, always supportive, and loyal, but said it'd cost an arm and a leg. Adam replied, "Well, what can I get for a Rib?"
Seriously though, with an all-powerful God anything's possible.
Quote:
Originally posted by manthabeats
Basically what I see the bible as, is just a collection of stories written by who knows how many authors, that has evolved itself over time. There is still lacking evidence of a real life noah's ark too. That thing they found on Mt. Ararat, look closer its just a rock, and in the bible, ITS JUST A STORY!
There's vurtually no evidence that the books of the Bible have changed since its earliest documents.
A true young earther would say that all the bones, fossils and sedimentary rock layers geologist find, are actually evidence of the flood, just no geologist interprets it that way.
Quote:
Originally posted by manthabeats
MAN created god so he could feel better about himself and not have to be alone all the time.
Give up trying to convert me, it aint going to happen.
It really sounds like you discredit God's existance to make yourself feel better.
Quote:
Originally posted by manthabeats
I would like to see you put ALL of those contradictions to shame. Think you can do it?
Of course I can't put them "to shame", beause you refuse to allow yourself to think on the level required to understand what I'm saying. see my previous post.
Quote:
Originally posted by manthabeats
Also, if evolutionism is a religion, then by the first amendment bill of rights, I should have the right to practice it then, without anyone trying to tell me any different. Kind of like Atheism.
Kind of like Creationism.
So I've got a question for you Manthabeats:
could you give me one example of something that you've observed, naturally moving from a less complex state to a more complex state, without being helped along by an outside force?


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Old 3rd February 2005, 04:57   #172
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Quote:
Originally posted by shakey_snake
In summary: Creationism vs Big Banganism (or whatever you want to call it) two different crowds at two different stadiums watching two different ballgames (each with their own different rules ).
I believe in the big bang. I think it is foolish not to. If you don't believe in the big bang then don't even get a CT scan or an MRI or xray. The principals that make these machines work, are the same principals that show that the universe is constantly expanding from a specific point, suggesting some sort of 'big bang'

I also believe in God as the creator of the universe. I just think he set off the big bang.

I think a better solution to the question of teaching creationism in biology class is to not teach either of them.
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Old 3rd February 2005, 06:02   #173
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Look at what Darwin studied on the Gallapogus islands about different species of birds/turtles who where of the same type as on the mainland, but where different in that they had adapted to their surroundings isolated on the island. Less complex, to more complex due to the given circumstances of isolation, thus, evolution.

Here's an example of less to more complex. What about bacteria that can multiply at high speeds and then become immune to any antibacterial applied to it. An example in real life of this is kind of like the flu virus. Some of our immunizations can't kill every strand. And, you can still get the flu even if you get the shot. The flu virus strain is more complex than what the immunization has in it.

I didn't ask you a question Shakey, I asked Vytas and I still haven't gotten a hard evidence answer. That is, unless you are Vytas. I wasn't talking to you at all.

I didn't say that I discredit god to make myself feel better, what I mean is that I believe different than you do, I'm willing to question my faith in where I came from. I choose not to believe every single thing I hear or read, I can't...

Who knows, maybe we came here on Earth by Aliens. The point is, no one really knows where the hell we came from in reality. There is no fact out there that says "We came from this or from that."

Evolution is a theory, I never said it wasn't otherwise. So is creationism, it has yet to be proven. I do believe certain aspects of evolution are possible and do happen however. But remember, what's stated in the theory of evolution (meaning change) doesn't just happen overnight. It can take millions of years. You seem to be forgetting the Geologic Time scale. You can't just go from microorganism to fish to land dweller in a few days.



Also, there is a thing outlined in the constitution that states for a seperation of church and state. Allowing schools to teach creationism would be in breach of that seeing as how schools are usually funded by state GOVERNMENTS.

If you want to teach creationism, do it in a private school, or a school that is independent, or even a Catholic school. But do not bring it in to the public (government funded) school system.

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Old 3rd February 2005, 07:02   #174
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Quote:
Originally posted by manthabeats
Look at what Darwin studied on the Gallapogus islands about different species of birds/turtles who where of the same type as on the mainland, but where different in that they had adapted to their surroundings isolated on the island. Less complex, to more complex due to the given circumstances of isolation, thus, evolution.

Here's an example of less to more complex. What about bacteria that can multiply at high speeds and then become immune to any antibacterial applied to it. An example in real life of this is kind of like the flu virus. Some of our immunizations can't kill every strand. And, you can still get the flu even if you get the shot. The flu virus strain is more complex than what the immunization has in it.
Darwins birds' beaks didn't get any more complex, they changed shape, by expressing previously repressed genes.They did not gain complexity, they merely adapted. Same thing with the turtles and bacteria. If Darwin's turtles turned into birds, or a bacterium suddenly developed a nucleous, or a single celled protazoan became muti-cellular ect. then that would be a gain in complexity! A mere expressing/repressing of genes is not. Having brown hair does not make me more complex than blonds.
Quote:
Originally posted by manthabeats
I didn't ask you a question Shakey, I asked Vytas and I still haven't gotten a hard evidence answer. That is, unless you are Vytas. I wasn't talking to you at all.
And yet because of your abrasivness, you got someone who would answer you.
Quote:
Originally posted by manthabeats
I didn't say that I discredit god to make myself feel better, what I mean is that I believe different than you do, I'm willing to question my faith in where I came from. I choose not to believe every single thing I hear or read, I can't...
But you understand the absurdness of your statement I was replying to. I also question everything that I hear or read, but that doesn't mean I have to disagree with it. I'm willing to question my faith, but I'm also willing to give it a chance.
Quote:
Originally posted by manthabeats
Who knows, maybe we came here on Earth by Aliens. The point is, no one really knows where the hell we came from in reality. There is no fact out there that says "We came from this or from that."
Then I'd like to know why you have to be so abusive when someone poses a solution to a question that you don't know the answer to.
Quote:
Originally posted by manthabeats

Evolution is a theory, I never said it wasn't otherwise. So is creationism, it has yet to be proven. I do believe certain aspects of evolution are possible and do happen however. But remember, what's stated in the theory of evolution (meaning change) doesn't just happen overnight. It can take millions of years. You seem to be forgetting the Geologic Time scale. You can't just go from microorganism to fish to land dweller in a few days.
I don't know what this has to do with my post to you. You must not think I have heard this over and over again. Yet you seem willing not to question your claim.
Quote:
Originally posted by manthabeats
Also, there is a thing outlined in the constitution that states for a seperation of church and state. Allowing schools to teach creationism would be in breach of that seeing as how schools are usually funded by state GOVERNMENTS.

If you want to teach creationism, do it in a private school, or a school that is independent, or even a Catholic school. But do not bring it in to the public (government funded) school system.
I'd like to remind you that no where in the US Constitutions 1st Amendment does the phrase "separation of church and state" appear. Instead, it is a provision against establishing a state sposored church, like the Church of England.
In fact, if the language were to be updated, keeping in mind the original intent of the congress which voted on it and the state legislators which ratified it, I'd imagine the term "life view" rather than "church" would be more appropriate. And since evolution is a life view as much as creationism is, why should it be taught to the exclusion of other life views?


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Old 3rd February 2005, 07:28   #175
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Quote:
Originally posted by shakey_snake
So, if this sector of scientific theory has its own class (biology) which is required for graduation (as was in my high school), should we not also require a class for each Christianity, Islam, Buddism and other religions?
What if students are required to study the Scriptures of each of these religions for each of these classes?
I agree with you in principle. I took a class called "Religious Education" until I was 14. (I dropped RE in favor of doing another foreign language.) But in othes schools doing one 16+ exam in a "humanities" subject (RE being the most common choice) is mandatory. What you suggest is a little extreme, I think just one class in religion, one class in biology is sufficient.

What I learnt in that class is part of the reason I'm a athiest. More knowlage means better decisions.


Also this seems to have been missed:
Quote:
Originally posted by will
I can see your point on this one (while I disagree) but what I don't get is how you make the link from:
A higher power created the universe
to
The bible is 100% correct on all issues.

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Old 3rd February 2005, 16:11   #176
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The bible was 100% correct when it was written, and the more forward-looking bits are still 100% accurate, unless they've been altered over time (any pessimist will tell you it's a least a little possible.) The OT was for a specific culture, the NT is for all cultures.

Now, to justify the above statement and answer your question a little more directly: The Bible seems to offer the most comprehensive and least contradictory explanation for why we are here, with minimal mysticism. When taken outside of the context of a specific denominational church (and the corresponding inevitable corruption) we have a simple, (esp. Genesis and NT) sometimes allegorical document that simply instills morals. It is theoretically possible that some details have been altered over the last 1700 or so years--but the central messages are continuous throughout. And the chronology, when allowing for the fact that it was written in an age largely devoid of any kind of serious scienficic terminology, seems to agree with a big bang following a period of gradual development.

Perhaps we might say that all [currently verifiable] parts of the Bible are 100% correct in their context. Unfortunately, this context is not always clear because we are substantially removed from the entire fabric of social structure and everyday life experience from which the text emerged. Surely you realize that making a text relevant to every culture everywhere at all unforeseeable points in the future essentially removes any real meaning it might have included?
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Old 3rd February 2005, 18:18   #177
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Are you really sure of that Phyltre? How much of the koran have you read? Of course, you being a christian means you are biased towards the bible. A muslim would say with equal convicion as you that the koran is 100% accurate.

Plus, I reject your assertation that the bible is 100% correct. There are many parts of the bible which say things which are contradicted by later things. Of course, sensible discussion of this is impossible here because of the (understandable) bias held by christians.

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Old 3rd February 2005, 18:28   #178
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A muslim would say with equal convicion as you that the koran is 100% accurate.
No he wouldn't.

Orthadox Islam does not view the Qur'an as a historical document. A Muslim would say that the sayings of Mohammad are portrayed with 100% accuracy and are inspired by God, but that the Qur'an does portray events that didn't happen for the sake of literary continuaty.


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Old 3rd February 2005, 19:03   #179
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I know enough about Islam to know that it is predicted directly in the Bible. I actually do know quite a bit about the Koran, although I've only physically read bits and pieces of it.

I never actually asserted that the Bible is 100% correct, either. Parts of it are 100% correct, [possibly] all of it was 100% correct at one time, but things don't stay true forever because things change. Plus, there is always the theoretical possibility that something has been altered, as I said, or forged in the first place; even if it was divine in origin, it is human in lineage.
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Old 3rd February 2005, 22:57   #180
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So you want some proof for the existence of God? Want something to chew on? Let's see. Eeenie, meeenie, minee, moeeee.....

Here's a starter:
http://www.apologeticspress.org/modu...t=1&itemid=269

Perhaps you will find this more interesting:
http://www.doesgodexist.org/Phamplets/Mansproof.html

I like this one. To help you comprehend the nature of God, let's borrow an analogy from the book Flatland by Edwin Abbott here:
http://www.doesgodexist.org/Phamplets/Flatland.html

Hmmm. I wonder what living in a +10 dimensional existence might be like?
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Old 4th February 2005, 04:16   #181
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simply to be the devil's advocate here...

This first two of those seemed to be centered around cause and effect: we/the universe must have a cause, and therefore, the cause is God. Now, I have said this before, and manthabeats said it as well, but I will reiterate: if the universe must have a cause and this is God, then why does God exist? Just because God exists?

The third is interesting as well: We cannot understand it (since it is beyond us, in demensions, or whatever), therefore God exists. However, you return to the original problem above: If God exists in all these higher demensions or things beyond our comprehension, how did He get there?

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Old 4th February 2005, 04:31   #182
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Anyone ever think about extraterrestrials?...
Yep, and they killed off the dinosaurs because they would've posed a theat to the newly landed humans. You never know, no-one really does.
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Old 4th February 2005, 04:47   #183
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You and I cannot comprehend what it is like to exist in several dimensions above ours. Yet you think a mere human being can figure out how or why God is?

I don't have a clue.

But I, for one, am completely and thoroughly convinced He is there. The good news is that He cares for our welfare beyond belief. He has even paved the way for us to be with Him, even while we have been rebellious of Him. Speaking for myself again, I put my COMPLETE trust in Him and what He has done and continues to do for me. The Bible is how He has chosen to communicate to us everything we NEED to know about Him and His character. We'll find out more after we have entered into His presence, to see Him face-to-face so to speak. How can we ever see Him? Well, one way to think about it might be, if you think of your true self as digital computer software and our bodies as computer hardware, then it's only a matter of a heavy-duty hardware upgrade into many more dimensions. This heaven thing that He promises - it's got to be a complete mind-blower!
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Old 4th February 2005, 05:50   #184
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This is one of the most pathetic dodges I have ever seen.

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Old 4th February 2005, 06:08   #185
Vytas
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Pathetic dodge? Really?

God has said over and over again that He IS - always has been and always will be. He has already revealed more about Himself than I can fully understand. He is not obligated to explain Himself further, particularly if we are incapable of comprehending it. In the end, it is a matter of trusting Him. That's where faith comes into play. Study the Bible. Learn about someone who is COMPLETELY TRUSTWORTHY.

Can you imagine a clay pot demanding to see the resume of its potter? What hubris!

In the end the choice is yours. He did not create you as a robot.
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Old 4th February 2005, 06:54   #186
bgesley
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It really is quite humiliating.

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Old 4th February 2005, 06:56   #187
shakey_snake
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Quote:
Originally posted by mikeflca
simply to be the devil's advocate here...

This first two of those seemed to be centered around cause and effect: we/the universe must have a cause, and therefore, the cause is God. Now, I have said this before, and manthabeats said it as well, but I will reiterate: if the universe must have a cause and this is God, then why does God exist? Just because God exists?

The third is interesting as well: We cannot understand it (since it is beyond us, in demensions, or whatever), therefore God exists. However, you return to the original problem above: If God exists in all these higher demensions or things beyond our comprehension, how did He get there?
The first cause does not itself have to be an effect, because there is no emperical evidence tying to it directly.


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Old 4th February 2005, 10:21   #188
gaekwad2
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Then the big bang doesn't need to have a cause either.
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Old 4th February 2005, 10:22   #189
Vytas
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The clay pots think they are so wise as to actually believe they required no potter. The pathetic and the humiliated are so wrapped up in their self-delusion that they finally throw out one-liners that lack any substance, hoping no one will notice that they stand naked before us.
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Old 4th February 2005, 10:25   #190
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Quote:
Originally posted by gaekwad2
Then the big bang doesn't need to have a cause either.
The universe is expanding = emperical evidence directly relating to the Big Bang being an effect of something

Thus the Big Bang needs a cause.


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Old 4th February 2005, 10:46   #191
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No, thus the big bang is a cause.

That there is no empirical evidence directly relating to God would thus prove that God isn't the cause of the universe.

Care to go on?
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Old 4th February 2005, 12:47   #192
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Not with someone who refuses to comprehend the simplest statements, like yourself.


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Old 4th February 2005, 13:30   #193
will
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I find it amusing that you still are saying:
"The big bang must have a cause"
at the same time as saying:
"God doesn't need to have a cause"

And whats more, you seem to believe this totally. Can you spell doublethink?

DO NOT PM ME WITH TECH SUPPORT QUESTIONS
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Old 4th February 2005, 14:01   #194
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Quote:
Originally posted by shakey_snake
Not with someone who refuses to comprehend the simplest statements, like yourself.
I do understand your statement, it's just that it's completely wrong. (There's a difference between comprehending and believing that because you say (or 'the bible says it') it it must be true.

Based on empirical evidence and a concept of cause and effect you can come to the conclusion that at the beginning of the universe as we know it there was a big bang.

Furthermore at the beginning of the big bang was a singularity. Information doesn't survive a singularity, therefore even assuming that there was a 'before the big bang' (for all we know there wasn't) and it was caused by something else it would be impossible to find out.

Now did you understand this?
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Old 4th February 2005, 18:13   #195
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Quote:
Originally posted by gaekwad2
Furthermore at the beginning of the big bang was a singularity. Information doesn't survive a singularity, therefore even assuming that there was a 'before the big bang' (for all we know there wasn't) and it was caused by something else it would be impossible to find out.

Now did you understand this?
I did. Information can survive a singularity if it isn't a part of that singularity. There is no way to find out what caused the big bang. But it did happen, when was the last time you heard of a blackhole exploding?

God claims he was the creator of the universe and everything in it. It's up to us to trust him or not.
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Old 4th February 2005, 19:59   #196
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The point being made, will, is a philosophical one:

That natural matter as we understand it operates on laws of cause. All events are caused by previous events; therefore, in order for there to be a procession of causes, there must have been original impetus. For there not to have been original impetus implies that there never would have been cause for anything; a series of events, you see, cannot be self-initiating.

Because this is our understanding of matter, we feel that there must have been a higher order of existence before the first cause--the first cause of matter as we experience it--and that this, purely by reason of definition, could be called God.

Therefore, God does not need a reason to exist or a beginning, because he does not operate under laws of ordinary matter (in fact, in many if not all ways, He created matter.) Ordinary matter, however, needs causes, and therefore there must be a first cause in order for causal existence to function as it does now.
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Old 4th February 2005, 21:31   #197
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Thank you Phyltre.

And to build on that and to clarify what I was saying before: Only something which does not operate under laws of ordinary matter (AKA God) could be the very First Cause because of the very internal nature of what a First Cause ia and has to be.

Now, "singularity" when defined as:
Quote:
From Dictionary.com
Astrophysics. A point in space-time at which gravitational forces cause matter to have infinite density and infinitesimal volume, and space and time to become infinitely distorted.
Sounds strikingly simnilar to a discription of an all-powerful, all-knowing, transcendent God.

So what I'm suggesting here is that we are talking about the same thing here, we're just doing so on our own planes, with our own vocabulary.


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Old 4th February 2005, 22:16   #198
gaekwad2
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Quote:
Originally posted by Mattress
I did. Information can survive a singularity if it isn't a part of that singularity.
The whole universe was inside the singularity.
Quote:
There is no way to find out what caused the big bang. But it did happen, when was the last time you heard of a blackhole exploding?
According to Hawking all black holes are instable, from an outside perspective they're very long lived (the bigger the longer).
But from an inside perspective, since time stops inside a black hole, they explode instantly.
Quote:
God claims he was the creator of the universe and everything in it. It's up to us to trust him or not.
People claim that it's their God who claims these things, first you have to trust them, and completely distrust everyone who says something else.
Quote:
Originally posted by shakey_snake
Thank you Phyltre.

And to build on that and to clarify what I was saying before: Only something which does not operate under laws of ordinary matter (AKA God) could be the very First Cause because of the very internal nature of what a First Cause ia and has to be.
Based on the assumption that there was a first cause.
Quote:
Now, "singularity" when defined as:
Quote:
From Dictionary.com
Astrophysics. A point in space-time at which gravitational forces cause matter to have infinite density and infinitesimal volume, and space and time to become infinitely distorted.
Sounds strikingly simnilar to a discription of an all-powerful, all-knowing, transcendent God.
All-knowing?

*shrugs*
Ok, people worshipped mountains, why not worship black holes?
Quote:
So what I'm suggesting here is that we are talking about the same thing here, we're just doing so on our own planes, with our own vocabulary.
Which would mean this discussion was pointless from the beginning.
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Old 5th February 2005, 00:29   #199
mikeflca
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Vytas, yes it was a pathetic dodge, necause i said

if the universe must have a cause and this is God, then why does God exist? Just because God exists?

And you effectively reiterated what had already been said about God being dimensions above us, which I had already mentioned.

On another note, thanks to shakey snake for answering (or trying to), and on yet another note, of course this discussion is worthless. It is a religion vs science debate, does anyone here actually think a debate like this will ever be anything other than a worthless waste of time?

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Old 5th February 2005, 00:53   #200
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Quote:
Originally posted by mikeflca
Vytas, yes it was a pathetic dodge, necause i said

if the universe must have a cause and this is God, then why does God exist? Just because God exists?
These discussions CAN be a waste of time when folks misread what is said. I did NOT say "Just because God exists". I said "I don't know WHY or HOW God exists. That's an honest answer. He is waaaaay beyond you and me. Can you even imagine any being just one dimension above us? Neither can I, let alone one multiple or infinite dimensions above us. More importantly, I don't care, don't need to know, and couldn't understand how or why He got there anyway.

We live in His created universe. We are accountable to Him only. Personally, I feel asking for this kind of impossible answer is really just a dodge from having to come to terms with what is knowable to us.

We are very willful beings, filled with self-pride, in need of a savior. This being who is way above us showed us immense love without our asking. Aren't you intrigued by Him in the very least?
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