Old 5th February 2005, 01:11   #201
mikeflca
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Vytas, did I say I don't believe in God? no--I said I was being the devil's advocate.

Also, I was quoting myself there.

Anyway, If God exists, created us etc, then we have to assume that God can "just exist" (or "IS") or that something/someone else created God.....correct?

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Old 5th February 2005, 01:17   #202
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Quote:
Originally posted by shakey_snake
Sounds strikingly simnilar to a discription of an all-powerful, all-knowing, transcendent God.
So god exists in all of the many black holes identified in the universe? (Black holes are singularitys)

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Old 5th February 2005, 02:09   #203
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God is everywhere, don't you know?

No, he's saying black holes are gods.
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Old 5th February 2005, 02:49   #204
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I am satisfied that God exists. He is there. I have seen more than enough proof of Him to make that decision for myself. And it took me YEARS to get there.

He has let us know repeatedly through the Bible that there is no other like Him or superior to Him. In my eyes, that would mean that no one created Him. I don't pretend to know how that is possible, but there are plenty of simpler things I know little about. I'm taking His word for it.

He has relentlessly taught me to trust Him - in innumerable small ways. That's been the toughest part for me, learning to TRUST Him.

I'm not in the habit of believing things that don't make any sense to me. I'm an extremely skeptical person. Maybe that's why it took me 41 years to accept God's reality.
I wish you well.
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Old 5th February 2005, 03:12   #205
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Quote:
Originally posted by will
So god exists in all of the many black holes identified in the universe?
You've just changed the definition of a singularity.
Quote:
Originally posted by will
(Black holes are singularitys)
Singularitys? Plural? You're kidding right?


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Old 5th February 2005, 03:51   #206
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Quote:
Originally posted by shakey_snake Thus the Big Bang needs a cause. [/B]
What caused God to exist?

Yeah, maybe he existed forever, maybe he was outside time. Maybe the universe was too.

All of you, on BOTH sides of the argument, none of you really know how everything started. None of you know if God exists. None of you can PROVE anything fundamental about our universe except that we exist.

I think, therefore I am. Everything else? Who knows. We try to make sense of it but we're not at the level yet, and may never be, where we can.
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Old 5th February 2005, 04:50   #207
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Personally I really don't see why we must teach Evolution or Creationism in schools. Nothing wrong with leaving it up to opinion since both are unproven and (as this thread clearly shows) never be agreed upon, no matter what you're taught.

Creationism or Evolution in our public schools? I say neither.

Quote:
I'm taking His word for it.
And there in lies the intrisnic flaw of religious beliefs.

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Old 5th February 2005, 08:42   #208
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Quote:
Originally posted by shakey_snake
Singularitys? Plural? You're kidding right?
I am not kidding. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_h...tative_physics
Quote:
The "surface" of a black hole is the so-called event horizon, an imaginary spheroidal surface surrounding all the hole's mass. At the event horizon, the escape velocity is equal to the speed of light. Thus, anything inside the event horizon, including a photon, is prevented from reaching the event horizon by the extremely strong gravitational field. Particles from outside this region can fall in, cross the event horizon, and will never be able to leave.

[snip]

At the center of the event horizon is a singularity, a place where general relativity predicts that spacetime becomes infinitely curved (i.e., where gravity becomes infinitely strong).
Every black hole contains a singularity at the center of its event horison. Its what makes a black hole not just another neutron star.

A singularity is not your god. Because you only have one god and there are many black holes in the universe.

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Old 5th February 2005, 23:43   #209
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question for the Europeans....

Are there any country around here, where Darwinism is not tought as basic facts?

I've never heard anyone seriously talking about creationism before i started hanging around this weird place...

To me it's pretty much like saying; that the sun orbits the earth, which is flat - you'd fall of the edge of the earth if you venture too far out, and forever roast in the fires of hell, in other words something people believed in 200 years ago
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Old 6th February 2005, 02:41   #210
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Quote:
Originally posted by will
I am not kidding. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_h...tative_physicsEvery black hole contains a singularity at the center of its event horison. Its what makes a black hole not just another neutron star.

A singularity is not your god. Because you only have one god and there are many black holes in the universe.
First off, I want to make it clear that I am not worshiping Black holes, regardless of your accusations.

Will, your making a couple assumptions in your conclusions.
  • You are assuming that God can't be in multiple places at the same time. And based on what I have proposed already about God and Time, and just general theology, I find this ability to be very concieveable.
  • You are assuming that God has to be a "singularity" (as you have expanded my understanding of the meaning of the term) forever, just because he might have manifested himself as one at one point in time. I see no reason for such a reasoning.
---------------------
Quote:
Originally posted by ertmann|CPH
question for the Europeans....

Are there any country around here, where Darwinism is not tought as basic facts?

I've never heard anyone seriously talking about creationism before i started hanging around this weird place...

To me it's pretty much like saying; that the sun orbits the earth, which is flat - you'd fall of the edge of the earth if you venture too far out, and forever roast in the fires of hell, in other words something people believed in 200 years ago
Based on the seriousness our Europeans treat the subject here, I'd assume that it hasn't been given a fair shake.
Case in point:
Quote:
Originally posted by will

What I learnt in that [Religious Education] class is part of the reason I'm a athiest. More knowledge[sic] means better decisions.
Which brings us back to the original topic of this thread.
----------------------
Quote:
Originally posted by Cognition
What caused God to exist?
You're a little late.
Start here:
http://forums.winamp.com/showthread....46#post1583846
work your way forward.


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Old 6th February 2005, 09:23   #211
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No shakey, I was just pointing out that a singularity is a well defined (and not uncommon) thing in the universe. When you said earlier that a singularity:
"Sounds strikingly simnilar[sic] to a discription of an all-powerful, all-knowing, transcendent God."
I thought you were a little off base, because there is nothing supernatual about a singularity.

To me, saying a singularity "sounds like god" is like saying "wow the radio has little talking men inside".

ertmann: We were taught that evolution is the current scientific thinking.
We did, however, once have a creationist speak to the whole school at our sunday chapel service. Needless to say, his speech was a figure of fun throughout the whole school for the next week.

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Old 6th February 2005, 11:41   #212
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Is man merely a mistake of God's? Or God merely a mistake of man's?
- Friedrich Nietzsche
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Old 6th February 2005, 11:55   #213
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God is a lobster.
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Old 6th February 2005, 12:04   #214
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In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move.
- Douglas Adams
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Old 6th February 2005, 12:20   #215
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Many races believe that it was created by some sort of god, though the Jatravartid people of Viltvodle V believe that the entire universe was in fact sneezed out of the nose of a being called the Great Green Arkleseizure.

The Jatravartids, who live in perpetual fear of the time they call The Coming of The Great White Handkerchief, are small blue creatures with more than 50 arms each, who are therefore unique in being the only race in history to have invented the aerosol deodorant before the wheel.
-Douglas Adams (continued from ertmann's quote)
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Old 6th February 2005, 15:49   #216
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Quote:
Originally posted by shakey_snake

You're a little late.
Start here:
http://forums.winamp.com/showthread....46#post1583846
work your way forward.
Yes, but it hasn't really been answered yet, so I will repost:

Quote:
If God exists, created us etc, then we have to assume that God can "just exist" (or "IS") or that something/someone else created God.....correct?

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Old 6th February 2005, 17:18   #217
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Quote:
Originally posted by gaekwad2
The whole universe was inside the singularity.
God is not part of the universe.
Quote:
Originally posted by gaekwad2
According to Hawking all black holes are instable, from an outside perspective they're very long lived (the bigger the longer).
But from an inside perspective, since time stops inside a black hole, they explode instantly.
Or they never do, if time is stopped how can anything happen/move/become unstable in order to cause an explosion? if I have a forty foot high stack of pennies, it doesn't matter how unstable that stack is, it's never going to fall over if time is stopped.

Quote:
Originally posted by gaekwad2
People claim that it's their God who claims these things, first you have to trust them, and completely distrust everyone who says something else.
So you're saying that since multiple people claim different gods then, since you can't be sure which one is the true God, it's a wiser choice to disbelieve in all of them?
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Old 6th February 2005, 17:44   #218
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Quote:
Originally posted by Mattress
God is not part of the universe.
That's indeed possible.
Or they never do, if time is stopped how can anything happen/move/become unstable in order to cause an explosion? if I have a forty foot high stack of pennies, it doesn't matter how unstable that stack is, it's never going to fall over if time is stopped.[/B][/QUOTE]
As I said before, from an inside perspective it explodes instantly, that's what "time is stopped" means. If you were to travel 100 lightyears at the speed of light that trip would take absolutely no time for you, but in the outside world 100 years would pass.

(Imagining the inside of a black hole isn't exactly easy, eg. the singularity in the center is not only infinitely small, it also rotates infinitely fast since the rotational(gr?) impulse of all the matter falling into the black hole is preserved.)
Quote:
So you're saying that since multiple people claim different gods then, since you can't be sure which one is the true God, it's a wiser choice to disbelieve in all of them?
I'm saying that I don't see or hear God claiming anything, all I see are people claiming that what they say is absolutely true without ever being able to back it up.

Why should I believe you and not the next (no offense) snake oil salesman?
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Old 6th February 2005, 17:45   #219
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Quote:
Originally posted by will
No shakey, I was just pointing out that a singularity is a well defined (and not uncommon) thing in the universe.
Will, if you could bother to post your definition of a singularity, it would greatly uncloud things.

"No shakey" isn't much of an arguement.
Quote:
Originally posted by will
When you said earlier that a singularity:
"Sounds strikingly simnilar[sic] to a discription of an all-powerful, all-knowing, transcendent God."
I thought you were a little off base, because there is nothing supernatual about a singularity.
Well, it is really just a hypothesis of mine, and as stated before, I would not expect you to see anything supernatural about it , because of your perspective.
However, if this singularity is the atheist explaination of a "first cause" what caused the singularity?


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Old 6th February 2005, 18:32   #220
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Quote:
Originally posted by gaekwad2
I'm saying that I don't see or hear God claiming anything, all I see are people claiming that what they say is absolutely true without ever being able to back it up.

Why should I believe you and not the next (no offense) snake oil salesman?
You have no reason to, but if we can infer that the universe had a beginning, then it must have been created by something, which can be called god. So if you believe that God exists, then if you desire to know more you should seek god out. Don't believe everyone you meet but listen to them, see what they have to say. it is concievable that God has genuinely spoken to someone.
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Old 6th February 2005, 19:03   #221
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I wouldn't call 'something' god.
After all you aren't talking about some unknown 'something' that may or may not exist when you say "God", are you?

I am listening to what others have to say but in the end I can only go by what makes sense to me and the concept of God doesn't. (And I must admit that when I hear soemone say "You must believe this or suffer horrendous consequences!" or when, on the contrary, what they promise sounds like wishful thinking (eternal life, joy, happiness etc.) I do get rather suspicious.)
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Old 6th February 2005, 20:57   #222
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About Europe and religion--

Europe (as a continent, anyway) has been home to all manner of misuses of religious initiatives. We have all sorts of instances where people have used religion simply as a way to claim control and reinforce their own authority. It is no wonder that they laugh when they hear about creationism; they've been lied to about religion for centuries by a host of historical figures.
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Old 6th February 2005, 21:55   #223
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Quote:
Originally posted by Phyltre
About Europe and religion--

Europe (as a continent, anyway) has been home to all manner of misuses of religious initiatives. We have all sorts of instances where people have used religion simply as a way to claim control and reinforce their own authority. It is no wonder that they laugh when they hear about creationism; they've been lied to about religion for centuries by a host of historical figures.
Or rather it might have something to do with the two largest fractions of chritianity in Europe, Catholism and Lutheranism have both embraced evolution, so we don't really have anything to argue about.
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Old 6th February 2005, 21:57   #224
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Clarification: those who believe there is no connection between creationism and evolution.
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Old 6th February 2005, 22:12   #225
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Quote:
Originally posted by shakey_snake
Will, if you could bother to post your definition of a singularity, it would greatly uncloud things.
see the wikipedia entry i linked. Thats as good an explanation as you will find.
Quote:
However, if this singularity is the atheist explaination of a "first cause" what caused the singularity?
Assuming that the universe has a beginning (which I tend to agree it has, due to the expansion of the universe). There has got to be some "start point". You say that this was god, I say that it was the big bang. It is the earliest event that we actually know happened.

Saying "the big bang just happened" is a lot more satisfactoy than "god just is. then he decided to make the big bang happen". Why? Occams razor. The added complexity given by the god aspect makes it a lot more unlikly in my eyes.
Seriously, Occam was excommunicated for what he said on this subject, so he must have been on to something. I don't think the pope would bother to excommunicate a fool.

Also, I see lots of evidence for the big bang and the universe existing. I have seen ZERO evidence for god in my 20 years of life, so I am not just going to believe in him/her for no reason.

I said that time doesn't exist in a singularity (it is stopped) therefore there really was no "before" the big bang.

The speed of light is constant, time is most certainly not. (by relativity)

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Old 6th February 2005, 22:40   #226
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occams_razor
Quote:
In the philosophy of religion Ockham's Razor is sometimes used to challenge arguments for the existence of God. None of these applications has been considered definitive because the competing assumptions are not (and perhaps cannot be) precisely defined. Also, it should be added that the principle is only a guide to the best theory based on current knowledge, not the "truth."
Occams Razor is a dangerous tool. But I can't blame you for trying to use it here. In light of:

Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
For with much wisdom comes much sorrow;
the more knowledge, the more grief.

I could see why you wouldn't want to attempt to understand a deity, but then again, you are not working any closer to reality, just limiting yourself.

Quote:
The speed of light is constant, time is most certainly not.
So why is the speed of light the only constant in the universe? What makes it so special?


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Old 6th February 2005, 23:54   #227
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Quote:
Originally posted by shakey_snake
Occams Razor is a dangerous tool. But I can't blame you for trying to use it here. In light of:

Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
For with much wisdom comes much sorrow;
the more knowledge, the more grief.
limiting oneself? that's bullshit and you know it...

Religion is much more constraining than science, in science you can turn everything upside down if you make a well enough constructed argument, in religion you're constantly met by dogmas.

You don't need religion to feel self fullfilment, if relgion makes you feel a better man, then fine - but don't throw bullshit quotes like that, makes you look like an idiot.

Religion is an answer, it's not the answer!
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Old 7th February 2005, 00:03   #228
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Quote:
Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
For with much wisdom comes much sorrow;
the more knowledge, the more grief.
In other words: Ignorance is bliss.
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Old 7th February 2005, 00:46   #229
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Everyone knows that the speed of light is constant - right?

Perhaps you should know that there are a few researchers who have arrived at the "possibility" that the speed of light may still be deccelerating - ever so slowly in recent history. A Russian researcher has even postulated that the speed of light at one time may have been faster by as much as 10 to the 10th power. Here's a link to perhaps the earliest paper on the subject (1987).

http://www.setterfield.org/report/report.html

I'm not neccessarily endorsing this idea, but I just thought I'd throw a wrench into the mix. :-)
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Old 7th February 2005, 03:05   #230
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As far as I can tell, gaekwad2, that quote means to say that as humans we cannot truly understand everything. Of course, we don't know what knowledge exactly that quote refers to.
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Old 7th February 2005, 07:39   #231
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Yes, vytas, I had infact already heard of that study. But it doesn't yet have the credibility thats Einsteins theorys earned. If it is found to be a better model than einstein (which we know to be imperfect, but its still the best we have) then I, and science as a whole will accept that as the new standard model. Thats how science moves forwards.

Shakey: I'll tell you why we think the speed of light is constant.
People for a long time thought that, as water waves travel through water and sound waves travel though air light travelled through the ether. They thought that every wave needed a medium to pass through.

Therefore, as the earth was going round the sun, we would be travelling through the ether and for this theory to work, there would have to be an ether "wind".

Michaelson and Moorly decided to see if this was the case by setting up an experiment. Light from a single source was sent down two paths 90 degrees from each other and reflected back. Like this:
__
|
|
|
+-------|
And the difference in speed between the two was found to be zero, no matter how they rotated the apperatus.

For years they refined this experiment, finding zero to greater and greater accuracy. The speed of light was constant in all directions, contrary to the ether.

Then einstein postulated* in special relativity that the speed of light was constant for every observer in every frame of reference, and the rest you know already.

*(To postulate is to say "if this is true, lets imagine what happens")

If your looking for science to give you a philosopical reason why this is so then you deeply misunderstand science.

In response to the rest of your post, I would agree with what ertmann said.

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Old 7th February 2005, 14:35   #232
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Quote:
Originally posted by ertmann|CPH
limiting oneself? that's bullshit and you know it...
No its really not. example:
Quote:
Originally posted by will
If your looking for science to give you a philosophical reason why this is so then you deeply misunderstand science.

See, It's not that I don't understand science, its that I ask questions that it can't answer.
Because of this, I find its conclusions to questions it can attemp to answer unsatisfying.

Seriously how old are we here?

Most of us are somewhere between preteen - early twentyish;
None of us have really yet become aware of the reality around us.
Seriously, be honest with yourself.
Maybe with a little time, we'll be able to step back and ask the Big Questions. And maybe with a little investigating, we can find an answer to those, but when we get to that point, I really doubt that any form of secularism is going to be able to answer those for us. Why not hear those questions asked by our instructors who have been there, at he secondary level of education? Maybe I'm getting ahead of myself, and maybe I'm being a little too generic, but I think my point is made.
This has been officially talked to death; I'm out. If that means you get the last word in, congradulations. But that's never my reasoning for entering these debates in the first place.


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Old 7th February 2005, 14:49   #233
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actually the light travels at different speeds through different mediums (air, water, vacuum, etc.)

what were we talking about again?
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Old 7th February 2005, 16:56   #234
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Yes it does. I do of course mean that the speed of light through a vaccum is constant. For example, if you measure the speed of light from the lights of a fast moving train, you will find the exact same result if you are measuring whilst standing on the train or on the tracks.

I do agree with you shakey that it has been talked to death, so here is my closing statement:
I don't see why there has got to be a reason for our existance. The "how" and the "why" are two entirely different questions which need not be related.

I think that you see the "why" question, find the answer of god and look from there to a "how" and see the bible.

I don't think there is a "why" at all. Our galaxy is a small and insignificant one amongst billions of others.
Our star, the sun, is a small and insignificant one amongst billions in our already insignificant galaxy.

The universe is ~15,000,000,000 years old.
Our earth is 4,500,000,000 old, and we as humans manage normally less than 100. An insignificant period of time.

Therefore, you, I and everyone are pretty damn insignificant in the grand scheme of things.

There is no "why". We are just a small and insignificant fluke of existance. Nobody up there created all this just for us. We have just got to decide what is important to us and enjoy life, and try and make it as enjoyable as possible for others.

I do agree that, as you quoted, ignorance is bliss. I hope you are blissful in not knowing our true insignificance and lack of point.

[edit]
I will augment this with a story of a friend of mine.
We were 17, and I was explaining my world view to him (an agnostic).
He simply could not understand what i was talking about. He didn't grasp what I was saying. This wasn't though lack of trying. He simply could not comprehend it.

Within a year he was a christian. Why? Because it is an easier answer. Easy answers arn't always right.
I wish i could multiply numbers by just adding them together once, that would be easier.
Unfortunatly arithmetic is not simple and neither are the answers to the big questions. Christianity is a very easy answer.
[/edit]

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Old 7th February 2005, 17:23   #235
gaekwad2
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Quote:
Originally posted by Mattress
actually the light travels at different speeds through different mediums (air, water, vacuum, etc.)

what were we talking about again?
Simplified explanation:
Light always travels at the same speed, in a dense medium it just gets diverted so it's zig-zagging through it.
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Old 7th February 2005, 17:55   #236
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shakey, what exactly did you mean by "None of us have really yet become aware of the reality around us." ?

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Old 7th February 2005, 20:18   #237
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Wow - try reading this thread while listening to Metallica!

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Old 7th February 2005, 20:27   #238
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Peggy Lee's most popular song many decades ago was "Is That All There Is?" I leave you with the lyrics and its message to ponder.


IS THAT ALL THERE IS?
Peggy Lee

SPOKEN:
I remember when I was a very little girl, our house caught on fire.
I'll never forget the look on my father's face as he gathered me up
in his arms and raced through the burning building out to the pavement.
I stood there shivering in my pajamas and watched the whole world go up in flames.
And when it was all over I said to myself, "Is that all there is to a fire?"

SUNG:
Is that all there is, is that all there is
If that's all there is my friends, then let's keep dancing
Let's break out the booze and have a ball
If that's all there is

SPOKEN:
And when I was 12 years old, my father took me to the circus, the greatest show on earth.
There were clowns and elephants and dancing bears
And a beautiful lady in pink tights flew high above our heads.
And as I sat there watching the marvelous spectacle
I had the feeling that something was missing.
I don't know what, but when it was over,
I said to myself, "Is that all there is to a circus?"

SUNG:
Is that all there is, is that all there is
If that's all there is my friends, then let's keep dancing
Let's break out the booze and have a ball
If that's all there is

SPOKEN:
Then I fell in love, with the most wonderful boy in the world.
We would take long walks by the river or just sit for hours gazing into each other's eyes.
We were so very much in love.
Then one day, he went away. And I thought I'd die -- but I didn't.
And when I didn't I said to myself, "Is that all there is to love?"

SUNG:
Is that all there is, is that all there is
If that's all there is my friends, then let's keep dancing

SPOKEN:
I know what you must be saying to yourselves.
If that's the way she feels about it why doesn't she just end it all?
Oh, no. Not me. I'm in no hurry for that final disappointment.
For I know just as well as I'm standing here talking to you,
when that final moment comes and I'm breathing my lst breath, I'll be saying to myself,

SUNG:
Is that all there is, is that all there is
If that's all there is my friends, then let's keep dancing
Let's break out the booze and have a ball
If that's all there is

-----------

I'm out.
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Old 8th February 2005, 01:47   #239
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Quote:
See, It's not that I don't understand science, its that I ask questions that it can't answer.
There are questions in sience that can't be answered (or rather, have an answer of both yes and no, both being equally valid). Example: You're in space, and you're the ONLY object in space (ie: you see nothing but black in all directions). Suddenly, you see another person moving towards you. They zip on past you and keep going.

Are YOU moving or stationary? The answer is both yes and no to each.

Crude, but it works. Just becuase there are questions that come down to yes and no being both correct, doesn't mean science is all bunk, and must be false. The universe is about 13.5 billion years old. The earth is about 4.6 billion years old. Humans have been around for about 200,000 years. There were dinosaurs.

Just because we have questions we can't answer now, doesn't mean we can't answer them later.

Quote:
So why is the speed of light the only constant in the universe? What makes it so special?
The speed of light is not the only constant. Here are some others:
atomic mass constant, Avogadro constant, Boltzmann constant, conductance quantum, electric constant, electron mass, electron volt, elementary charge, Faraday constant, fine-structure constant, inverse fine-structure constant, magnetic constant, magnetic flux quantum, molar gas constant, Newtonian constant of gravitation, Planck constant, Planck constant over 2 pi, proton mass, proton-electron mass ratio, Rydberg constant, speed of light in vacuum, Stefan-Boltzmann constant

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Old 8th February 2005, 15:50   #240
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^...the constant buzzing in my head...

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