Old 8th February 2005, 20:24   #241
bgesley
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Don't mean to start a fight or anything I just wanted to make an observation. Vytas, considering that you said that you are an "extremely skeptical person" and that after 41 years of denial you final consider that Jesus is the lord your savior. Then I'm just thinking that for whatever you believed for the first 41 years of your life you considered unsatisfactory to your needs as a "beleiver" in something. Most likely because your belief system at that time wasn't answering all the questions that you were asking in/about life. Sinec you might have thought that was unsatisfactory you probably went to the greatest alternative, christianity to answer all the questions you have. Now you are satistfied.

I on the other hand am completely satistfied with the disbelief in god and the solidity of science and logical thought.

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Old 8th February 2005, 21:47   #242
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Your assumptions are off. The impending death of my mother, and later my father, forced me to do some serious thinking.

I looked at evidence, not tradition and certainly NOT for anything to make me feel good. I had been raised a Roman Catholic. I had always thought of God as a cosmic killjoy.

I also came upon the overwhelming evidence that Jesus Christ actually rose from the dead after he allowed Himself to be crucified for your sins and mine. The movie "The Passion of the Christ" portrays a small portion of that quite well. His cowardly apostles became completely transformed by His ressurection and became willing to die for that truth. People don't tend to willingly die for what they KNOW to be a LIE.

The more I actually learned about evolutionary theory, the more holes I found, etc.

We're not very different. Some day, when you start asking some really important questions about your short and fleeting life, think a little about what you read here.

Last edited by Vytas; 8th February 2005 at 22:07.
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Old 8th February 2005, 22:22   #243
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True, people don't tend to willingly die for what they KNOW to be a LIE. But people DO tend to willingly die for what they THINK is the TRUTH.

You're right, we aren't very different. For the first decade or so of my life I didn't go to church. Then my father went to seminary school and became an ordained reverand. A few years after that I was going to a catholic private school which my mother adored. My siblings did pretty much the same thing. The one difference between us and you is that despite the fact our parents are still alive and we continue to be atheist.

Now maybe this is a case of the more "modern" people are becoming athiest and detached with god (or more accurately reglions because of the church).

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Old 8th February 2005, 22:45   #244
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With the apostles, they saw Jesus many times AFTER His death. They walked and talked and even broke bread with Him. They KNEW the truth of His resurrection. There was absolutely NO DOUBT about it. That's why they were so willing to die and not deny that truth. Of the 10 who were faced with the choice, all 10 later chose death. Powerful.

I want you to know something very important when it comes to God and religion. There's a difference between being religious, and having a relationship with God. Through religion, people too often try to earn their way to heaven. In a relationship with a perfect God, you realize that Jesus did the earning or paying of the price that we are unable to pay. We do good works as a way of returning our love for His love, with a desire to be more like Him. That is a critical distinction.
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Old 8th February 2005, 22:48   #245
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It has been said before that one must not judge the individual by the church.
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Old 9th February 2005, 00:33   #246
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Originally posted by THPSFG
I'm going to reveal information to you that is going to be very disturbing... Despite a contsitution that said seperate religion from state, it's not happening anymore. This is the scariest time in our nations history.
Well, that may be a wee bit alarmist. Bullshit like this comes and goes in cycles...(remember the Scopes monkey trial?) but I think that may be the scariest time in my memory (I'm 46.)
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Old 9th February 2005, 00:47   #247
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Quote:
Originally posted by will
I will augment this with a story of a friend of mine.
We were 17, and I was explaining my world view to him (an agnostic).
He simply could not understand what i was talking about. He didn't grasp what I was saying. This wasn't though lack of trying. He simply could not comprehend it.

Within a year he was a christian. Why? Because it is an easier answer. Easy answers arn't always right.
I wish i could multiply numbers by just adding them together once, that would be easier.
Unfortunatly arithmetic is not simple and neither are the answers to the big questions. Christianity is a very easy answer.
Heh i feel the other way, i simply can't comprehend how anyone can believe in the bible, if it wasn't because some of the smartest people i know, are christians, i would take them for retards...

But then again, non of them are religius zealots, i'd still say if you understand everything in the bible in the strictest most literal sense, and believe there is only god and evil - nothing in between, you're a retarded twat, who needs to take a reality check.

Allthough this is not to say that I don't like the bible, I think the message of the bible is wonderfull, and if people use it against homosexuals, to take nations into war etc. I think they understand the bible less than I do - and that makes even less sense. Turn the other cheeck, love thi neighbour etc. are the real messages of the bible, how can anyone miss that, and find some obscure details somewhere that mentions homosexuals, and suddenly the love of the bible doesn't encompase them.
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Old 9th February 2005, 00:54   #248
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Quote:
Originally posted by Vytas
Your assumptions are off. The impending death of my mother, and later my father, forced me to do some serious thinking.

I looked at evidence, not tradition and certainly NOT for anything to make me feel good. I had been raised a Roman Catholic. I had always thought of God as a cosmic killjoy.

I also came upon the overwhelming evidence that Jesus Christ actually rose from the dead after he allowed Himself to be crucified for your sins and mine. The movie "The Passion of the Christ" portrays a small portion of that quite well.

His cowardly apostles became completely transformed by His ressurection and became willing to die for that truth. People don't tend to willingly die for what they KNOW to be a LIE.

The more I actually learned about evolutionary theory, the more holes I found, etc.

We're not very different. Some day, when you start asking some really important questions about your short and fleeting life, think a little about what you read here.
Overwhelming evidence? What in the world could that be? I mean, the best that we could hope for is an eyewiteness account, and eyewitness accounts from 2000 years ago don't amount to "overwhemling evidence".

And "holes" in the theory of evolution? It's a scientifuc fact-- not a theory-- that we share 95 (or is it 99 per cent) of our DNA with chimpanzees. As science progresses the fossil evidence becomes more and more irrelevant. It will probably always be a theory, but it is the

The issue here isn't about belief in God. I believe in God. The issue is whether we need to believe everything that we're told about God because it has been passed down to us, even as other people believe a bunch of other things about God just because they were passed down to them, and that our relationship with God is ordained by tradition, and therefore is not permitted to grow in intelligence and reasonableness over the centuries.

There is a kind of faith that doesn't present credulity as the ultimate moral test. I trust God to deal with me justly when I die, according to my ability to serve others and forgive those who trespass against me-- and regardless of whether I maintain a literal adherence to every detail of the belief of my ancestors. That is my faith, and while it may not get me to heaven, it serves me very well in this life.
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Old 9th February 2005, 01:24   #249
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Well said. I believe it doesn't matter much to God whether you believe in evolution or not, but rather that you believe in God and believe that God created people, either through evolution or by some other means isn't really that important. IMO.
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Old 9th February 2005, 01:41   #250
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Life is for making decisions, and by these we will be remembered.
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Old 9th February 2005, 01:56   #251
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Originally posted by spiderbaby1958
Overwhelming evidence? What in the world could that be? I mean, the best that we could hope for is an eyewiteness account, and eyewitness accounts from 2000 years ago don't amount to "overwhemling evidence".
We have eyewitness accounts, as you admit. For some people, there is NEVER enough evidence, or the evidence is always somehow not satisfactory or tainted. The real reasons for dismissing the evidence have little to do with the actual evidence. O.J. Simpson played golf again today as a free man because 12 people discounted all of the evidence.

All of Christianity stands or falls on the resurrection of Jesus Christ. People have been trying to disprove it for almost 2,000 years. If they could succeed, Christianity would be have been dead long ago and I would be an atheist. The best critics have been able to do is to come up with truly lame, implausible explanations that would lose in any courtroom.
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Old 9th February 2005, 01:57   #252
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The apostles seeing Jesus is about as true as Huckleberry Finn seeing Tom Sawyer.

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Old 9th February 2005, 02:23   #253
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Since Mark Twain said that those characters were compilations of the adventures of his own boyhood and his boyhood friends, you may not have made quite the statement you wanted to. Some of that context is quite accurate.
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Old 9th February 2005, 05:03   #254
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bg got lit. that was something i did not know. i think i'll go read some american classic now. Either the Jungle or one of Mark Twain's.

I'm Back?
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Old 9th February 2005, 09:48   #255
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Quote:
Originally posted by Vytas
The best critics have been able to do is to come up with truly lame, implausible explanations that would lose in any courtroom.
No, see, in a court room it would be up to the christians to prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that Jesus Christ not only lived and died, but also was really resurrected and is, in fact, the son of god. Which is quite impossible to do. Therefore the christians would lose their case by default.

It is the responsibility of the believers to prove what they believe. The burden of proof is on them, not those who refuse to believe something as impausible as a divine resurrection and saviour of all humanity.

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Old 9th February 2005, 19:22   #256
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Quote:
Originally posted by Vytas
We have eyewitness accounts, as you admit. For some people, there is NEVER enough evidence, or the evidence is always somehow not satisfactory or tainted. The real reasons for dismissing the evidence have little to do with the actual evidence. O.J. Simpson played golf again today as a free man because 12 people discounted all of the evidence.

All of Christianity stands or falls on the resurrection of Jesus Christ. People have been trying to disprove it for almost 2,000 years. If they could succeed, Christianity would be have been dead long ago and I would be an atheist. The best critics have been able to do is to come up with truly lame, implausible explanations that would lose in any courtroom.
So when I ask you for the "overwhelming evidence" you claim, you point out that it hasn't been disproven???


Suppose you're a jury member in a murder case, and the defense attorney points out that even though twelve people saw the accused shoot down the victim with an assault rifle, the prosecutor has failed to prove that the victim did not rise from the dead, so murder cannot be proven. You have no choice but to vote for acquittal, right?

I'm not personally interested in disproving it, but I would think that in any courtroom, in any reasonable case, there would be a presumption that dead people remain dead. I can't disprove the notion that Julis Caesar, or William Shakespeare, or Jerry Garcia rose from the dead, but I tend to take it for granted that it did not happen, because such things are... extrememly unusual.

I'm not trying to attack your faith; I am attacking this willfull dumbness on your part. You are trying to paint your faith as intelligent and reasonable and it ain't. You claim "overwhelming" evidence, and there is none. You believe what you're supposed to believe because you're supposed to believe it... which is fine, but that's all there is to it.

I reject the notion that Christianity rises or falls with literal resurrection of Christ. Whether or not it really happened like that, the Sermon on the Mount has influnced my attitude toward others more than anything else I have ever read. Whether it is literally true in its entirety, the myth of Christianity speaks volumes about God's love, and His involvement in our lives, and gives us a perfect example of how to face the suffering and death that is part of everybody's human legacy.

Whatever really happened, I take that as a mystery. If God wanted it to happen that way, I suppose that it did, but I can't just say that it happened, because someone wrote it down 2000 years ago. That kind of unquestioning belief, which supposedly makes someone a good Christian, also makes for a good Moonie, or a good Nazi, or a good Manson family member.
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Old 10th February 2005, 02:16   #257
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If you haven't done any digging on your part, I can understand why you can treat Jesus Christ's resurrection as a mystery.

You speak extremely favorably about some of Jesus Christ's teachings. That's odd. Jesus Christ claimed to be the Son of God, as in "I and the Father are one." That's equal to being God. Many Jews had Him crucified for that claim.

That would make Him one of three possible things: a complete liar, a total lunatic, or God. I find it odd that anyone would find useful ANY teachings that came from any kind of a liar or lunatic.

Last edited by Vytas; 10th February 2005 at 02:47.
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Old 10th February 2005, 02:35   #258
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Quote:
Originally posted by Vytas
I find it odd that anyone would find useful ANY teachings that came from any kind of a lier or lunatic.
People who lack brain capacity in some respects sometimes make up for it with incredible abilities in others. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autistic_savant

Also, have you never met a good liar? They are often geniuses.

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Old 10th February 2005, 02:38   #259
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I believe Jesus did exist as a real person, but some of the things he did seem physically (physics hint hint) impossible, like walking on water, or coming back from the dead. I think its just a story to make us all feel better about ourselves. That doesn't mean it actually happened just because it is written down.

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Old 10th February 2005, 02:46   #260
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We all live in the matrix. The existence of the movie gives the overwhelming evidence, and that we live in the matrix has not been Disproven.

Sounds crazy, yes; however, is it really any farther fetched than some other ideas out there? think about it.....

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Old 10th February 2005, 03:03   #261
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Funny. You discount a 66 book compilation, written by 40 authors over a couple of thousand years, that has withstood the slings and arrows of its detractors. Yet, you're ready to buy into a money-making movie fantasy from Hollywood. Now there's a critical thinker!
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Old 10th February 2005, 03:04   #262
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I was trying to think of an example of a mentally retarded person who was actually a genius before, but couldn't remember until now. Have you ever seen the movie "Rainman?"
That is just a movie albiet but there are real people like that out in the world, see Mike's link.

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Old 10th February 2005, 03:09   #263
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Also, what I think Mike is trying to say is basically, you can take anything and make people believe in it. A majority of the population will believe a thing like that, take the existance of UFOs or ghosts, or even bigfoot for example.

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Old 10th February 2005, 03:19   #264
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Ah yes! A mentally or brain-impaired genius who was willing to die over his grand delusion, yet displayed a very strong sinless character, and imparted true life-changing wisdom for the ages, so much so that people universally consider him to be at the very least a great teacher.

This looks a bit like a pretzel.
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Old 10th February 2005, 03:25   #265
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Are you talking about the same Rainman I am? The one with Dustin Hoffman is nothing like you just described. If you are doubting anyone with mental retardation's abilities here, then I suggest you watch the movie first, then we'll talk.

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Old 10th February 2005, 03:28   #266
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Originally posted by Vytas
Funny. You discount a 66 book compilation, written by 40 authors over a couple of thousand years, that has withstood the slings and arrows of its detractors. Yet, you're ready to buy into a money-making movie fantasy from Hollywood. Now there's a critical thinker!
Holy crap. PLEASE learn analytical thinking.

edit: also, how did all the parts of the Bible get put together, exactly? I've always wondered.

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Old 10th February 2005, 03:33   #267
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I also find it rude that you choose to make fun of a type of person you clearly know nothing about.

Point is, don't jump to conclusions about someone or something you don't know much about because 9 out of 10 times, you will be completely wrong.

I could say some things about you that I think I know, but really don't know, however I'm not one to judge.

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Old 10th February 2005, 03:37   #268
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Study the subject personally. Try to take it all apart personally, factually, intelligently. If you come away rejecting it, fine. I can respect that.

I'm talking about the lengths people will go to in an effort to explain away something they've dismissed out of hand or out of prejudice. I'm not talking about any movie.
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Old 10th February 2005, 03:58   #269
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Earlier:

Quote:
Originally posted by VytasEvolution is an emperor who has been wearing no clothes. It survives because every time someone points out he is naked, the person is derided as a religious nutcase. It is the evolutionists who are the religious fanatics. They protect their dogma with the fervor of the inquisition. Competing with anything else on an equal footing is their greatest fear. That's why they have refused to debate creationists for years. They kept losing the debates. Instead, they throw mud, deride and look for sympathetic judges.

....

you fail to see the absurdity of your own beliefs.
and now....

Quote:
Originally posted by Vytas
Study the subject personally. Try to take it all apart personally, factually, intelligently. If you come away rejecting it, fine. I can respect that.
Are you sure?

edit for clarification: There seems to be a change from "Your beliefs are absurd" to "I can respect your beliefs."

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Old 10th February 2005, 04:19   #270
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Much, NOT ALL, of what I've read here under this message subject has NOT been based on careful personal examination. I have too little patience for statements that merely dismiss something out of hand or out of prejudice. That's being intellectually LAZY.

I have a lot of respect for someone who has done his homework and still disagrees, even though I may still think he is wrong. At least both of our minds got stretched.

I got hooked into this thing early on when I saw so many obviously misinformed assumptions about the "sanctity" of the theory of macro-evolution. Someone had to say "hey, wait a minute."

I'm trying to get unhooked out of here. :-)
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Old 10th February 2005, 04:38   #271
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get out...if only that were possible......

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Old 10th February 2005, 05:50   #272
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Whoa now, everyone calm down. This took an immature downslide.

Vystas, firstly as I understand it Jesus himself never stated that he was the son of God. He said he was the son of Man. I and the father are one wasn't supposed to be taken literally. What that meant was the God was in his heart, in himself. I'm sure you could understand that. Now I could be in the wrong here but this is what my father has said about the matter(keep in mind he is an ordained reverand, speaking a majority of the dialects that were spoken in Jesus's age).

I completely agree that Jesus most likely WAS a real person, there are more books than just the Bible that reference him in some way. Including major "holy books" from several of the other major religions. Even if we accept that whatever he said in life, he really did say in the bible (which was compiled by Constantine who threw OUT books that he didn't want in the bible. Dead Sea Scrolls anyone? Even a book said to be written by Jesus himself wasn't included) it does not mean we should use these stories in our schools (the foundation of CONVENTIONAL WISDOM).

Everyone here knows that, historically, using religious texts as forms of facts of science have always disproven and even be troublesome. Puritans, crusades(hell any religious war for that matter).

Let me make this very, very, very clear. It is my opinion that the bible should be taken as a PERSONAL guide for living a life of GOOD. It is a book of metaphors, stories, and teachings in order to live a life filled with hope, NOT FACTS. There is no reason that someone who is an avid believer of God and Jesus not also understand and respect and KNOW that science is what is used for FACTS.

Also nobody should believe in something simply because people die for it. That obviously does not mean whatever that person believed in was in any way "truth" or "divine." Just look at the People's Temple or even the US Army.

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Old 10th February 2005, 06:47   #273
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To the Jews, blasphemy was punishable by death. Saying something that means "God is in my heart" would NEVER have stirred up such outrage by the high priests. Jesus used the term "Son of God" and "Son of Man" almost interchangeably. After all, he did have both natures.

Ask your minister father for a clear answer to the following question. Is the Bible the Word of God, or does it "contain" the Word of God. Choosing the latter leaves YOU able to decide what you want to accept and what to dismiss. I think that's a sort of watered-down cafeteria-style Christianity.

I've ALWAYS erred when I considered straying from the former. I think you should either accept the whole Bible, as tough as that may be at times, or accept none of it.

It's easier these days to actually read and understand the Bible. THE MESSAGE//REMIX translation is even enjoyable to read, being in today's common vernacular. Of course, there are parts that are still very difficult to understand for the novice, but that's why we have study Bibles and a multitude of reference works.
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Old 10th February 2005, 07:08   #274
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Quote:
Originally posted by bgesley
Whoa now, everyone calm down. This took an immature downslide.

Vystas, firstly as I understand it Jesus himself never stated that he was the son of God. He said he was the son of Man. I and the father are one wasn't supposed to be taken literally. What that meant was the God was in his heart, in himself. I'm sure you could understand that. Now I could be in the wrong here but this is what my father has said about the matter(keep in mind he is an ordained reverand, speaking a majority of the dialects that were spoken in Jesus's age).
Jesus did claim to be the son of God. Matthew 16:15-17:
Quote:
15“But what about you?” he asked. “Who do you say I am?”

16Simon Peter answered, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”

17Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven.
If Jesus wasn't the son of God wouldn't he have corrected Peter instead of said he was blessed?

Matthew 26:63-64:
Quote:
The high priest said to him, “I charge you under oath by the living God: Tell us if you are the Christ, the Son of God.”

64“Yes, it is as you say,” Jesus replied.
If Jesus wasn't the son of God, why would he admit to the temple priests that he was? especially when he knew they'd kill him for claiming he was.
Quote:

I completely agree that Jesus most likely WAS a real person, there are more books than just the Bible that reference him in some way. Including major "holy books" from several of the other major religions. Even if we accept that whatever he said in life, he really did say in the bible (which was compiled by Constantine who threw OUT books that he didn't want in the bible. Dead Sea Scrolls anyone? Even a book said to be written by Jesus himself wasn't included) it does not mean we should use these stories in our schools (the foundation of CONVENTIONAL WISDOM).
The bible was not compiled by constantine, who told you that? it was compiled by a church council in the 3rd century, a large meeting of church bishops or something.
edit: wikipedia link

The dead sea scrolls are OT and other writings, there aren't any NT or Jesus references in any of the scrolls.


Quote:

Also nobody should believe in something simply because people die for it. That obviously does not mean whatever that person believed in was in any way "truth" or "divine." Just look at the People's Temple or even the US Army.
because they willingly laid down their lives for it, shows that they believed it to be true. So if the ressurection was a hoax, then Jesus's closest disciples also fell for it, and fell hard. Also, everything they claimed to have experienced (miraculous healings, demons cast out, etc..) were also hoaxes that they all fell for.

Since these men were the writers of the gospels and the NT, they must have believed that what they wrote to be the truth, they would not have been willing to die for some shit they just made up.
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Old 10th February 2005, 15:53   #275
spiderbaby1958
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You speak extremely favorably about some of Jesus Christ's teachings. That's odd. Jesus Christ claimed to be the Son of God, as in "I and the Father are one." That's equal to being God. Many Jews had Him crucified for that claim.

That would make Him one of three possible things: a complete liar, a total lunatic, or God. I find it odd that anyone would find useful ANY teachings that came from any kind of a liar or lunatic.
This is soooo typical. Phoney logic that proves nothing. What about possibility number four: misquoted?

I find Christ's teachings to be useful because I find them to be useful. They WORK.

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Originally posted by Vytas

Ask your minister father for a clear answer to the following question. Is the Bible the Word of God, or does it "contain" the Word of God. Choosing the latter leaves YOU able to decide what you want to accept and what to dismiss. I think that's a sort of watered-down cafeteria-style Christianity.

I've ALWAYS erred when I considered straying from the former. I think you should either accept the whole Bible, as tough as that may be at times, or accept none of it.

Accept the whole thing without thinking or questioning? Sure! Nothing "intellectually lazy" about that!

Everything you say has been said before. The cafeteria analogy, the lord-liar-lunatic proposition which was promulgated by the Jesus Freaks at my high school thirty years ago. (of which I was one) You don't seem to have an original thought... and yet you accuse others of intellectual laziness.

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Old 10th February 2005, 22:31   #276
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Originally posted by spiderbaby1958
This is soooo typical. Phoney logic that proves nothing. What about possibility number four: misquoted?

I find Christ's teachings to be useful because I find them to be useful. They WORK.
"Misquoted?" That's your best response? I suppose Christ was crucified because He was misquoted.

How do you know you are following any of His teachings? Maybe He was misquoted, over and over and over again. Your response is one of convenience. It flies in the face of the evidence. Read the recent posting by Matress.
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Old 10th February 2005, 23:01   #277
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This thread is like the energizer bunny, it just keeps going and going and going....

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Old 10th February 2005, 23:57   #278
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Yeah. These threads always get at least three pages and refuse to die.
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Old 11th February 2005, 01:00   #279
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Especially when the subject is controversial such as this, its common sense for forums. Wish I could get this kind of response on my forums, plus the # of users winamp has.

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Old 11th February 2005, 05:01   #280
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I hope this thread can die now.
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