Old 22nd January 2006, 23:10   #1
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Italnan Courts: Did Jesus Exist?

ROME, Italy (AP) -- Lawyers for a small-town parish priest have been ordered to appear in court next week after the Roman Catholic cleric was accused of unlawfully asserting what many people take for granted: that Jesus Christ existed.

The Rev. Enrico Righi was named in a 2002 complaint filed by Luigi Cascioli after Righi wrote in a parish bulletin that Jesus did indeed exist, and that he was born of a couple named Mary and Joseph in Bethlehem and lived in Nazareth.

Cascioli, a lifelong atheist, claims that Righi violated two Italian laws by making the assertion: so-called "abuse of popular belief" in which someone fraudulently deceives people; and "impersonation" in which someone gains by attributing a false name to someone.

Cascioli says that for 2,000 years the Roman Catholic Church has been deceiving people by furthering the fable that Christ existed, and says the church has been gaining financially by "impersonating" as Christ someone by the name of John of Gamala, the son of Judas from Gamala.

He also asserts that the Gospels -- the most frequently cited testimony of Jesus' existence -- are inconsistent, full of errors and biased, and that other written evidence from the time is scant and doesn't hold up to scholarly analysis.

http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/europe....ap/index.html

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Old 22nd January 2006, 23:14   #2
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my empty post

whoops, imagine this isn't here.

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Old 22nd January 2006, 23:27   #3
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Re: my empty post

Quote:
Originally posted by MegaRock
whoops, imagine this isn't here.
hehe, fitting somehow
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Old 22nd January 2006, 23:31   #4
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rofls

i think jesus existed and still does
//moves on
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Old 22nd January 2006, 23:33   #5
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Do you also think MegaRock made only one post?
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Old 22nd January 2006, 23:41   #6
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no, he made 2
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Old 23rd January 2006, 00:14   #7
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I find your lack of faith disturbing.
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Old 23rd January 2006, 00:20   #8
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nice, you got me there but look in the mirrror, do you see your brain?

nope, so how do you know its there?
you dont see it 'til you die.
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Old 23rd January 2006, 00:29   #9
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I have a detachable brain.

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Old 23rd January 2006, 00:36   #10
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I know my brain exists because: brain surgery has been performed on people for quite some time now (even the Incans practiced it). MRIs have shown that something exists in our head whose state changes based on our thought processes, drug use, etc. CAT scans also show the existence of some soft tissue in your skull. Ask any credible scientist, and he will confirm that you have a brain.

You can't say you can't see X and you can't see Y. X exists, therefore Y exists. It's horribly illogical.

Believe what you want, I don't care. Just use better arguments to defend your beliefs.

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Old 23rd January 2006, 00:40   #11
gaekwad2
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Quote:
Originally posted by tuckerm
nice, you got me there but look in the mirrror, do you see your brain?

nope, so how do you know its there?
you dont see it 'til you die.
Or on an MRI scan. Or I can deduce it from everybody else having one.

That one was lame.
(btw, do you really believe you'll see your brain when you die?)

edit: and I'm again
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Old 23rd January 2006, 00:41   #12
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I win

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Old 23rd January 2006, 00:46   #13
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im just trying to show you guys what the christians see, they belive in god, how did the universe get made?
just so happen something blew up and we just spawn outta fish?
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Old 23rd January 2006, 00:53   #14
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Well we've been through all the arguments a couple of times already.

use teh search, n00b
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Old 23rd January 2006, 00:53   #15
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Wow. This has already turned into a creationism vs. evolution thing. I'm bored, so I'll play along.

Evolution has been observed on a small scale. Fossil records show a gradual change. Vestigal structures make no sense in a creationist world. The eye is flawed too - why would the neural pathways go through the retina (thus creating a blind spot) instead of come out from the back.

Observations of the universe have shown shadows/echos of the big bang (background radiation and the like).

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Old 23rd January 2006, 00:54   #16
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Did Jesus Christ exist? Sure, it's quite possible. But was he born of a virgin as the son of God, the creator of man? Well, let's just say that I don't believe in fairy tales.

Spiral out, my friend. You will find your way back to yourself, we all will.
I'll be waiting, and shall see you on the other side...
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Old 23rd January 2006, 00:55   #17
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Yah. "Virgin birth" reminds me of some slutty teen getting pregnant, yet continually insist that she's a virgin.

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Old 23rd January 2006, 00:55   #18
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another [childish if you will] example:
how do you make chocolate chip cookies?
butter, salt, etc.
throw that into a bowl and let it sit, its not gonna form ANYTHING, think of the universe like that, and if your theory of thinking is true, will we have some mutation down the line?!
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Old 23rd January 2006, 00:58   #19
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That's just stupid. Even if cookies were alive, it isn't logically sound.

All life on earth needs very specific conditions to develop. You can't take a human sperm and egg, stick them in a box, and come back in 9 months to find a baby. Similarly, cookie dough won't spontanteously evolve into cookies.

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Last edited by mikm; 23rd January 2006 at 01:53.
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Old 23rd January 2006, 01:18   #20
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If you let the cookie dough sit long enough, it will turn into something else.
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Old 23rd January 2006, 01:52   #21
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And which philosophy did you want to embrace?. A philosophy of morality or one of decadence.

The ideal of a priest... the worship of God. The ideal of the atheist... to be God.

Of course there have been abuses with faith in Christianity. But Christianity has a durable morality that has been around for centuries. Has it been abused?... sure... and Christians are the first to recognize that.

Then we have the other side of the coin, which is atheists. They have no morality, save what they made up in their head.

Christians with a clear moral mandate and atheists with none.

So I guess if you want to run around and screw everything in sight, kill your unborn children and find platonic excuses for any misdeed, then atheism is the RELIGION for you.

Your morality doesn't have to follow human traditions, much less the moral code of Christians.

Despite the abuses, the morality remains.

And what is the motive of atheists?.

Certainly not to EXCEED the morals of Christians....

If it feels good do it?

No God... so it doesn't really matter huh?.
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Old 23rd January 2006, 01:54   #22
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Yeah it'll be a miracle.....it will vanish soon enough if its just sitting there..





















Cause someone ate it.

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Old 23rd January 2006, 01:59   #23
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Since when is it the ideal of the mainstream athiest to be God?

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Old 23rd January 2006, 02:04   #24
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Quote:
Originally posted by rockouthippie
And which philosophy did you want to embrace?. A philosophy of morality or one of decadence.

The ideal of a priest... the worship of God. The ideal of the atheist... to be God.
Wrong already, didn't bother to read any further.

And as for decadence:
Quote:
Under Christianity neither morality nor religion has any point of contact with actuality. It offers purely imaginary causes ("God" "soul," "ego," "spirit," "free will"--or even "unfree"), and purely imaginary effects ("sin" "salvation" "grace," "punishment," "forgiveness of sins"). Intercourse between imaginary beings ("God," "spirits," "souls"); an imaginary natural history (anthropocentric; a total denial of the concept of natural causes); an imaginary psychology (misunderstandings of self, misinterpretations of agreeable or disagreeable general feelings--for example, of the states of the nervus sympathicus with the help of the sign-language of religio-ethical balderdash--, "repentance," "pangs of conscience," "temptation by the devil," "the presence of God"); an imaginary teleology (the "kingdom of God," "the last judgment," "eternal life").--This purely fictitious world, greatly to its disadvantage, is to be differentiated from the world of dreams; the later at least reflects reality, whereas the former falsifies it, cheapens it and denies it. Once the concept of "nature" had been opposed to the concept of "God," the word "natural" necessarily took on the meaning of "abominable"--the whole of that fictitious world has its sources in hatred of the natural (--the real!--), and is no more than evidence of a profound uneasiness in the presence of reality. . . . This explains everything. Who alone has any reason for living his way out of reality? The man who suffers under it. But to suffer from reality one must be a botched reality. . . . The preponderance of pains over pleasures is the cause of this fictitious morality and religion: but such a preponderance also supplies the formula for decadence...
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Old 23rd January 2006, 02:07   #25
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Here's a thought: are athiests getting so little action that the only way to justify their existence is to impose their beliefs on others?
Here's another thought: prove Napoleon or any historical figure existed.

I am so important I feel the need to let it be known like a liberal discovering the internets for the first time. Uh hur hur hur. I also wash myself with a rag on a stick.
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Old 23rd January 2006, 02:08   #26
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Funny. I thought it was the religious types who tend to evangelize more. How many wars were fought in Europe because of religion?

Name one war that was started to spread athiesm.

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Old 23rd January 2006, 02:17   #27
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Quote:
Originally posted by hgnis
Here's another thought: prove Napoleon or any historical figure existed.
How much historical evidence do you need?

There are tons of records, as opposed to one book written by an interested party.
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Old 23rd January 2006, 03:17   #28
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Quote:
Originally posted by gaekwad2
Wrong already, didn't bother to read any further.
Yeah atheists usually do that if you disagree with them.

Reading your post. I believe that man has an immortal soul.

Nothing I can say scientifically, just a feeling.

Which of Gods laws did you want to be exempt from?. What law did you want to make up to replace Gods law?.
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Old 23rd January 2006, 03:55   #29
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Science is great for things that have been proven. The scientific process is great for proving things. But one of the main tenets of science is, something cannot be disproven except in the context of an experiment. It takes an infinite number of positive-resulting experiments to absolutely prove something, but only a single negative result to disprove something (of course, it'd have to be replicated.)

So, theoretically speaking, hardcore atheists must not be any more aligned with science than fundamental religious people.

But back on topic, the person who filed the suit is obviously misusing the legal system.
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Old 23rd January 2006, 04:06   #30
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Quote:
Science is great for things that have been proven. The scientific process is great for proving things. But one of the main tenets of science is, something cannot be disproven except in the context of an experiment. It takes an infinite number of positive-resulting experiments to absolutely prove something, but only a single negative result to disprove something (of course, it'd have to be replicated.)

So, theoretically speaking, hardcore atheists must not be any more aligned with science than fundamental religious people.
Eh? I don't follow.

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Old 23rd January 2006, 04:09   #31
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Quote:
Originally posted by mikm
Eh? I don't follow.
Scientific Viewpoint: No Evidence = No Stance.

NOT No Evidence = Doesn't exist.

The latter is the viewpoint of a skeptic.
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Old 23rd January 2006, 04:18   #32
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By that logic, you could use science to say "There's no evidence disproving the existence of the Flying Spaghetti Monster, therefore we can't say it doesn't exist".

You can't equate a fundametnalist and an atheist on science.

Fundamentalist: We don't know what causes lightning, it must be the gods.
Athiest: We don't know what causes lightning, but there must be some logical explanation.

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Old 23rd January 2006, 04:26   #33
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Quote:
Originally posted by mikm
By that logic, you could use science to say "There's no evidence disproving the existence of the Flying Spaghetti Monster, therefore we can't say it doesn't exist".
EXACTLY.
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Old 23rd January 2006, 04:43   #34
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But you're wrong. Part of the scientific method is making a reasonable conclusion. Even though we can't prove the existence of the FSM, it is reasonable to assume that there is no flying mass of spaghetti that created the earth.

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Old 23rd January 2006, 04:51   #35
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Quote:
Originally posted by mikm
But you're wrong. Part of the scientific method is making a reasonable conclusion. Even though we can't prove the existence of the FSM, it is reasonable to assume that there is no flying mass of spaghetti that created the earth.
In order to make a reasonable conclusion, first you'd have to perform an experiment. (Also part of the scientific method.) And I dare you to find an applicable experiment that doesn't have an inordinate number of confounding variables.
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Old 23rd January 2006, 09:33   #36
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Many orthodox people speak as though it were the business of sceptics to disprove received dogmas rather than of dogmatists to prove them. This is, of course, a mistake. If I were to suggest that between the Earth and Mars there is a china teapot revolving about the sun in an elliptical orbit, nobody would be able to disprove my assertion provided I were careful to add that the teapot is too small to be revealed even by our most powerful telescopes. But if I were to go on to say that, since my assertion cannot be disproved, it is intolerable presumption on the part of human reason to doubt it, I should rightly be thought to be talking nonsense. If, however, the existence of such a teapot were affirmed in ancient books, taught as the sacred truth every Sunday, and instilled into the minds of children at school, hesitation to believe in its existence would become a mark of eccentricity and entitle the doubter to the attentions of the psychiatrist in an enlightened age or of the Inquisitor in an earlier time.
Bertrand Russell

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Old 23rd January 2006, 09:40   #37
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Part of every atheist argument that I have ever heard has been the accusations of religious leaders being charlatans and snake oil salesmen. And I have seen that among the "faithful".

But that is certainly not restricted to the religious. There are just as many snake oil salesman in the scientific community as the religious.

So when you are making a statement like that and are going to worship at the altar of science, you need to take the same precautions against the new priests.....

http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cg...NGMDGMDSV1.DTL

So you see, fraud and lies are hardly restricted to the religious. So if you're going to prosecute your neighborhood parish priest for a lack of telling the truth, you should need the same standards for the shamans of science.

After all, truth is subjective. Existence is what you personally think it is. I'm not even going to say that atheism is wrong, just not what I believe.

I don't think atheists make an analysis of the meaning of life which is any less subjective than mine.

Examining the motives of people of any belief is at the heart of the matter.

Is that motive self serving?.
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Old 23rd January 2006, 10:24   #38
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When this God of yours decides to talk to me, I'll consider myself special. Until then, I'm nothing more than a product of science.

It's a hell of alot easier to prove.
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Old 23rd January 2006, 11:07   #39
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And when science completely explains existence, then I'll embrace that.

In the mean time, I won't be suing you for providing a life of service to your fellow man... whatever you believe...
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Old 23rd January 2006, 11:54   #40
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Quote:
Originally posted by rockouthippie
And when science completely explains existence, then I'll embrace that.
That's not the point of science. The point of science is to increase our understanding, and those who embrace it are simply those that wish to know more.

Fraud is generally easy to find in science. Those who are selling said snake oil can be found. The dishonest are everywhere, in everything, but in science, they can be found.

I'm not anti-religious (I'm either what is referred to as "agnostic" or "humanist", often depending in what mood I'm in , but I'm certainly not on the level of Dawkins or anything), but the issues here are clearly different. A religious leader who lies makes a heretic of his followers, whereas a scientist who lies will be found when his evidence does not weigh up. Deceit by religious leaders undermines religion, whereas from scientists it merely undermines the scientist &mdash; the science which leads on from the lie will fail due to the lie, whereas inserting a lie into a religion could lead to many more lies derived from it.

Religion and science are different things though, and comparing them so closely will always yield strange conclusions.

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