Old 25th January 2006, 03:03   #81
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Got better things to do than sit and listen to closeminded people spin fairy tales.
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Old 25th January 2006, 03:06   #82
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Quote:
Originally posted by rockouthippie
Jim (the church goer) is sending his kid to Portland State.

Bill (not religious, although he was raised that way) is sending his kid to prison.
Wow! Anecodtal evidence highlighting one case. All religious people MUST be better than non-church-goers!

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Old 25th January 2006, 03:16   #83
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Originally posted by ElChevelle
Got better things to do than sit and listen to closeminded people spin fairy tales.
People who try to prove or disprove things using logic, and call it science, are closedminded indeed. Not directed at you, but at the topic.

Until we have statistical evidence one way or the other, we've no way of knowing what the actual trend is, if any.
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Old 25th January 2006, 04:28   #84
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I'm hardly closed minded. 20 years ago, I might have spouted the same liberal bullshit that I hear here.

I'm not even a church going man, but I think the morality and code of conduct that christians are SUPPOSED to follow is worthy.

Let me say that George Bush is not a christian. His membership in the skull and bones makes him a freemason.

Freemasons are not christians, despite what they'd like to tell you. Their view is the antithesis of christianity, a fact they only take minor measures to conceal.

If you oppose christianity, you can do that because you oppose it's abuses. I oppose those abuses.

But more likely, you oppose it's morality, because you don't want to abide it's morality. The abuses become an excuse to attack a faith and morality that you don't abide.

So you can be gay and spread aids and syphillis all over the place or father bastard children or do drugs or a million things "church people" think are wrong.

Why else would you oppose people that are teaching strict morality?. Unless you don't want to follow strict morality?.

I'm not even a church going man and I haven't always followed christian dogma. I will stop short of opposing people who do.

Generally, I don't find the mormons setting up a crank lab in the house down the street.

I understand why people oppose churches, because I've been one of them. I always thought it was "too red".

At 44, I see something different.

Last edited by rockouthippie; 25th January 2006 at 04:49.
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Old 25th January 2006, 04:48   #85
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oops dp
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Old 25th January 2006, 10:04   #86
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Originally posted by rockouthippie
Why else would you oppose people that are teaching strict morality?. Unless you don't want to follow strict morality?.
Because I think we have no fucking right to impose strict moral rules which do not affect me on other people.

This is a classic liberal stance, not a "liberal bullshit" one. There's no good reason to advocate this sort of moral stance.

Afraid your God will get you? Why else would you oppose people that are teaching tolerance? Unless you are somehow offended by the things that people who don't share your opinion do?

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Old 25th January 2006, 10:19   #87
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Originally posted by zootm
Because I think we have no fucking right to impose strict moral rules which do not affect me on other people.

This is a classic liberal stance, not a "liberal bullshit" one. There's no good reason to advocate this sort of moral stance.

Afraid your God will get you? Why else would you oppose people that are teaching tolerance? Unless you are somehow offended by the things that people who don't share your opinion do?
amen!

Have you ever been outside the North America? I can't imagine people who preach like you ever have
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Old 25th January 2006, 10:27   #88
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Originally posted by zootm
Why else would you oppose people that are teaching tolerance? Unless you are somehow offended by the things that people who don't share your opinion do? [/B]
Because excess tolerance DOES affect my life. It makes me have to put security cameras on my house, and I have to smell the crank lab.

And I have to pay for "babies having babies" with my taxes and prisons to hold the human refuse liberalism creates.

But even "tweakers" have rights huh?..... and because of this liberal crap to get in my wallet, either through taxes or stealing from me outright.

Get a job.

Wanna be liberal?. Do it on your own dollar. Pay for your own jail, your own kids, your own drug rehab and get out of my pocket.

The next time I have someone come up to me and try to sell me their food stamps to buy some drugs, I think I'm gonna start swinging.

So much for tolerance

Last edited by rockouthippie; 25th January 2006 at 10:46.
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Old 25th January 2006, 10:41   #89
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Originally posted by rockouthippie
Because excess tolerance DOES affect my life. It makes me have to put security cameras on my house, and I have to smell the crank lab.
If drugs were legalised, the crank lab wouldn't be in your neighbourhood.

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Originally posted by rockouthippie
And I have to pay for "babies having babies" with my taxes and prisons to hold the human refuse liberalism creates.
I don't think sex before marriage being legal is really counted as "liberalism" in any extreme way.

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Originally posted by rockouthippie
But even "tweakers" have rights huh?
Of course they do. Human, aren't they? I don't believe in one's fallacies (since all humans have them, after all) diminishing one's humanity.

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Originally posted by rockouthippie
and because of this liberal crap to get in my wallet, either through taxes or stealing from me outright.
Classical liberalism would advocate not paying for them, but since all people have the right to live, and since their sins are forgiveable (shit, let a little Christian morality slip in there), a society based in Christian morality would pay for them.

You're really advocating that we abandon Christian moral standards. Christians wouldn't punish those who sin - they'd try to help them. Besides, they'd use up just as much, if not more, of your money in a jail cell.

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Originally posted by rockouthippie
Wanna be liberal?. Do it on your own dollar.
Your use of the term "liberal" really doesn't mean anything to me (American Liberalism, which basically means "the mainline Democratic Party stance", is pretty far from Liberalism). Classical liberalism is a lot closer to what is referred to as "libertarianism" in the US, and it's extremely non-Christian, and extremely close to what seems like a solution to all your problems.

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Old 25th January 2006, 10:51   #90
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Originally posted by zootm
If drugs were legalised, the crank lab wouldn't be in your neighbourhood.
No, as a trip to Amsterdam taught me, as I had to kick over a junkie that was drowning in his own vomit... and give him my coat to keep him from freezing to death.... legalized drugs aren't gonna be the way either.

The way I see it. Schools teach this behavior. It's not even that they don't force you to pray, it's that YOU ARE NOT ALLOWED TO PRAY... unless you're a druid or something...

But you are forced to the health class to learn how to put on a condom. And to learn all this wonderful acceptance of shitty people.

EDIT: I guess you are right, I wouldn't abandon people in trouble and I don't. I help people that are hurting. I just wish we would quit turning them out like it was some kind of garbage factory.

In teaching tolerance, I think we went too far. And it could swing back the other way. Then I'd be griping about facism.

For this discussion, we have a guy suing his parish priest. In our schools we have kids NOT ALLOWED to pray.

I don't know what the answer is but vilifying christians is not it.

And this seems the DOGMA of atheists. That all the worlds ills are caused by christians.

And OOOPS Zoot, you let a little christian influence slip...

The truth is usually in the middle, but reality always seem to slip to one side or the other too far.

At this moment it's left, but when it swings back right, it will probably be just as bad.

I wish we could find the happy medium in all our problems...

It never seems to work that way though.

Last edited by rockouthippie; 25th January 2006 at 11:22.
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Old 25th January 2006, 11:42   #91
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Originally posted by rockouthippie
And this seems the DOGMA of atheists. That all the worlds ills are caused by christians.
I'm not an athiest (although I realise that that's largely a case of subtlety), and I don't believe that. One person who does believe that a lot more is Richard Dawkins, though.

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Originally posted by rockouthippie
But you are forced to the health class to learn how to put on a condom. And to learn all this wonderful acceptance of shitty people.
Sex education works. Stopping teaching about contraception would be a step backwards of a monumental degree.

And I don't think there's anything wrong in saying that all humans have worth. I know some don't use it (or can't, depending on your worldview), but I wouldn't remove that.

There's an interesting alternative view to crime, punishment, and "human worth" in a "Dangerous Idea" article by the aforementioned Dawkins (the man is very smart, despite what you think of his philosophies), here. It's worth a read, if nothing else (I don't expect you to agree, I'm not sure I completely do either, but it's certainly interesting). Excerpt:
Quote:
Concepts like blame and responsibility are bandied about freely where human wrongdoers are concerned. When a child robs an old lady, should we blame the child himself or his parents? Or his school? Negligent social workers? In a court of law, feeble-mindedness is an accepted defence, as is insanity. Diminished responsibility is argued by the defence lawyer, who may also try to absolve his client of blame by pointing to his unhappy childhood, abuse by his father, or even unpropitious genes (not, so far as I am aware, unpropitious planetary conjunctions, though it wouldn't surprise me).

But doesn't a truly scientific, mechanistic view of the nervous system make nonsense of the very idea of responsibility, whether diminished or not? Any crime, however heinous, is in principle to be blamed on antecedent conditions acting through the accused's physiology, heredity and environment. Don't judicial hearings to decide questions of blame or diminished responsibility make as little sense for a faulty man ... ?
Quote:
Originally posted by rockouthippie
And OOOPS Zoot, you let a little christian influence slip...
I'm influenced by lots of things.

In seriousness though, I think that most concrete moral rules which are enshrined in Christianity, or most religions, are largely derived from human nature, rather than the other way around.

Quote:
Originally posted by rockouthippie
I wish we could find the happy medium in all our problems...
Agreed. The medium is never where people think it is, though, which probably implies there isn't one. So long as sensible debate is allowed and used to refine our rules, we'll be making progress, though. That's the problem that many have with religion — instead of encouraging discussion, much of the time it has the appearance of not allowing discussion.

I think you'll find that this is the reason that many athiests have problems with Christians. Not because they dislike people for having beliefs, but because much of the time, those who harbour beliefs cannot be reasoned with, and many athiests and others see reasoning as our true salvation.

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Old 25th January 2006, 12:04   #92
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Originally posted by rockouthippie
...and we are waiting for the 3rd bastard kid by 2 girls.
Can you imagine how much I despise you for that half-sentence alone, Mr. high-morals?

/uses ignore function to avoid having to get extremely angry
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Old 25th January 2006, 12:25   #93
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I got a paragraph into Dawkins article and found this:

An especially warped and disgusting application of the flawed concept of retribution is Christian crucifixion as "atonement' for "sin'.

I might be wrong, but I don't remember christians crucifying anyone... that was the Romans...

and yeah... a few hundred years ago.... the spanish inquistion...

and some priests cooperated with Hitler...

and others baptised jewish babies and gave them false papers ..... to keep the Nazis away ...

The pope baptised a bunch of jews and forged papers, even though if the Nazis had found out, they would have killed him for it....

So Dawkins makes my point better than I could. And since he just used bullshit to make his argument. What does that tell us?. He couldn't even get a paragraph out without making up some stupidity.
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Old 25th January 2006, 12:38   #94
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Can you imagine how much I despise you for that half-sentence alone, Mr. high-morals?

/uses ignore function to avoid having to get extremely angry
Couldn't keep your pants on either?.
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Old 25th January 2006, 13:07   #95
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Quote:
Originally posted by zootm
In seriousness though, I think that most concrete moral rules which are enshrined in Christianity, or most religions, are largely derived from human nature, rather than the other way around.
Agreed. Believing that those moral rules stem from Christianity is being more narrowminded than a marlin. Yes, I'm suuuure that people killed themselves and others, drank themselves to death, commited adultery and whatnot ALL the time before they came to contact with Christianity and "Christian morals". Just look at those Indians in the Amazon forest. Murderers all of them. Would rape you as soon as look at you.

Convincing someone of something abstract (and radical, but not necessarily) takes a really good speaker. And that you aren't. Didn't you notice that not a single person here is "on your side" or has become that during the course of the discussion ? Your reply to Gaekwad on that was just about the pettiest thing I've seen in weeks, and it earned you the honor of being the first and only person on my ignore list.
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Old 25th January 2006, 13:19   #96
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Originally posted by Doggy Dog
Your reply to Gaekwad on that was just about the pettiest thing I've seen in weeks, and it earned you the honor of being the first and only person on my ignore list.
OK, I'll give up this argument... christians are the cause of all the problems in the world.... amen .... hallelujah....

Better go string up the pope.... pass out the condoms and drugs.....

Change my site to porn......

I'm cured.....

Wouldn't want to be accused of resisting decadence....
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Old 25th January 2006, 13:24   #97
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Old 25th January 2006, 13:29   #98
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Quote:
Originally posted by rockouthippie
Why else would you oppose people that are teaching strict morality?. Unless you don't want to follow strict morality?.
Let me cite an example. Catholics teach abstinence as a way to cut teenage pregnancy and STDs. They say that "abstinence is 100% effective". Which it is.

However, they teach/preach abstinence. Teaching abstinence is not 100% effective because not everyone is going to heed the lesson.

Obviously, it would be best to teach those who would not heed the abstinence lesson how to have safe sex. This would stop them from getting disease and having babies.

I disagree with their strict morality because it doesn't work and harms those it seeks to protect (by not giving them the information on how to have safe sex). That is quite different to "not wanting to follow it".

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Old 25th January 2006, 13:37   #99
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Originally posted by will
Let me cite an example. Catholics teach abstinence as a way to cut teenage pregnancy and STDs. They say that "abstinence is 100% effective". Which it is.

However, they teach/preach abstinence. Teaching abstinence is not 100% effective because not everyone is going to heed the lesson.
But since my conversion a minute ago, I have seen the light.

It would be worthless to teach abstinence. Hand out the condoms and say "have at"!. Condoms break and kids will forget to bring one but that doesn't matter.

We wouldn't want to offend anyone by suggesting responsible parenting.

Just line em up down at the abortion clinic, problem solved...
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Old 25th January 2006, 13:54   #100
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Quote:
Originally posted by rockouthippie
An especially warped and disgusting application of the flawed concept of retribution is Christian crucifixion as "atonement' for "sin'.

I might be wrong, but I don't remember christians crucifying anyone... that was the Romans...
The Christian ethos is that Jesus's crucifixion was his atoning for our sins, which is what I think he's referring to.

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Old 25th January 2006, 14:07   #101
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The Christian ethos is that Jesus's crucifixion was his atoning for our sins, which is what I think he's referring to.
OK lets forget about:

Judge not, lest ye be judged

Jesus's dismissal of the crowd that was going to stone Mary Magdelene to death.

Turn the other cheek.

I have given you the new law (Jesus in stopping the stoning of Mary Magdelene).

And my personal favorite:

How can you get a sliver out of your own eye, when you have a board in your own?.

The idea is that you do your own penance, not that it is forced upon you. Not for a few centuries anyway.

Forced penance is not penance. Redemption is gained by penance, not by punishment.

And I haven't seen a church that had a jail attached yet.

I'm failing to see Dawkins logic....

But it must be christians fault that we have jails somehow. It's common knowledge that religion is the root of all evil.

Last edited by rockouthippie; 25th January 2006 at 14:34.
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Old 25th January 2006, 14:54   #102
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Most Christians only uphold the subset of their faith that pleases them, though. Pat Robertson is a hilarious example of the extremes of this.

Quote:
Originally posted by rockouthippie
And I haven't seen a church that had a jail attached yet.
The vatican, allegedly

Quote:
Originally posted by rockouthippie
I'm failing to see Dawkins logic....
I was more interested in the concept of treating those who commit crimes as simply "broken", rather than reaping vengeance upon them.

Quote:
Originally posted by rockouthippie
But it must be christians fault that we have jails somehow. It's common knowledge that religion is the root of all evil.
It's funny you should mention that... Dawkins will tend to blame things on religion more than most, but I was really meaning to refer to the rest of that article, rather than the religious jibes.

I'd be more tempted to think of vengeance as a part of human nature that was developed in the past as a defensive mechanism, but I'm not convinced it's required in the ways that many believe these days.

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Old 25th January 2006, 15:48   #103
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Quote:
Originally posted by zootm
Most Christians only uphold the subset of their faith that pleases them, though. Pat Robertson is a hilarious example of the extremes of this.
I'll agree about Pat Robertson, but he hardly represents "Most Christians".

Quote:
The vatican, allegedly (has a jail)
Yes and it's a country to itself and has no death penalty.

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I was more interested in the concept of treating those who commit crimes as simply "broken", rather than reaping vengeance upon them.
Agreed, and I think most christians would agree with me. I certainly see enough missions, food distribution and help for the poor.... even prisoners.....

Quote:
Dawkins will tend to blame things ..... rather than the religious jibes.
And while he's making those jibes, do the rest of his arguments make any sense?. The whole point of his writing is those "jibes". To vilify christians.

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I'd be more tempted to think of vengeance as a part of human nature that was developed in the past as a defensive mechanism, but I'm not convinced it's required in the ways that many believe these days. [/B]
Agreed, and this is the "innate morality" that you can expect without christianity.

Somebody said we would come up with the moral codes without christianity. Like in China, or Nazi Germany or Stalinist russia....

They eliminated christianity and buddhism and boy! that showed us how good secularism is. The chinese really helped out Tibet too, by kidnapping the Llama. And Sadam replaced Allah and that worked out really great!. Bin Laden too....

Religious people suggested that blacks were people. Novel concept!. I remember the 1960's and going to church. This was the subject of every sermon. The civil rights movement was won in every church in the country, as black and white people together said racism was wrong.

Wackos like Robertson aside ..... and you have to look very closely at his motives .... nice suit ....

I know a Jesuit priest that picks up pop cans so he can get a pack of smokes.... works in the missions feeding the poor... and his motive?.

I offered him a twenty, because I felt bad for him. He told me to give it to the mission....

But christians are all the evil?...
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Old 25th January 2006, 15:56   #104
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It's a good thing everything is completely black and white, and there's no middle ground. Otherwise we might have some sort of comprimise.
(not to anyone in particular, just the nature of the discussion)


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Old 25th January 2006, 15:57   #105
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Didn't you notice that not a single person here is "on your side" or has become that during the course of the discussion ?
I agree with roh for the most part.

I think putting someone on your ignore list because you don't agree with what they say is pretty petty. roh has rational arguments and he's generally not a troll. But if you want to be close minded, that's your choice.
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Old 25th January 2006, 16:14   #106
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Originally posted by rockouthippie
It would be worthless to teach abstinence. Hand out the condoms and say "have at"!. Condoms break and kids will forget to bring one but that doesn't matter.
Maybe if you see in black and white.

Clearly the best thing to do is say "Don't have sex before you are married. It is unsafe and you might have an unplanned pregnancy. However, if you insist on doing so, here is how to be as safe as possible".

Or is that a "mixed message", too complicated for the proletariat to understand?

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Old 25th January 2006, 16:28   #107
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Clearly the best thing to do is say "Don't have sex before you are married.
No. that's not enough.

Kids have to be told that having children is the most important decision that they will ever make. It's a responsibility that is greater than any other decision that they will ever make. It's a decision that is to be made with the greatest concern. And it's a decision that requires the gravest, most serious consideration, as an ADULT... because even with all of that, you'll probably screw it up anyway

Not... Don't have sex... here's a condom...
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Old 25th January 2006, 16:36   #108
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My point is, and remains, how many you expect them to heed your lesson?

Hormones are powerful things, and can override rational thought. And after all, isn't it best to have a back up plan?

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Old 25th January 2006, 16:48   #109
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Originally posted by rockouthippie
And while he's making those jibes, do the rest of his arguments make any sense?.
I think so. They read fairly logically. You obviously don't agree, though.

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Originally posted by rockouthippie
Agreed, and this is the "innate morality" that you can expect without christianity.

Somebody said we would come up with the moral codes without christianity. Like in China, or Nazi Germany or Stalinist russia....
I don't buy that argument one bit, you're extending a set of extremist views to all non-christians, whereas these are simply the ones extreme enough to overthrow whole political systems.

I'd be just as correct to say that moral laws can never happen under Christianity, because of the Spanish Inquisition.

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Bin Laden too....
...huh?

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Originally posted by rockouthippie
Religious people suggested that blacks were people. Novel concept!. I remember the 1960's and going to church. This was the subject of every sermon. The civil rights movement was won in every church in the country, as black and white people together said racism was wrong.
The Ku Klux Klan is a religious organisation. The people who were putting the blacks down were Christians too. Good and bad, all under the one faith. This is simply human nature, not related to their faith.

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Originally posted by rockouthippie
But christians are all the evil?...
You act like there isn't charitable, good people outside of religion. That's a jaded, deeply depressing view. Nobody's saying that Christians are evil. Dawkins is arguing that religion is, in the overall, bad for modern society. I don't think I agree with him, but you've clearly mistaken the meaning of that.

My argument is that morals can exist without religion.

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I think putting someone on your ignore list because you don't agree with what they say is pretty petty.
Agreed.

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Originally posted by will
Maybe if you see in black and white.

Clearly the best thing to do is say "Don't have sex before you are married. It is unsafe and you might have an unplanned pregnancy. However, if you insist on doing so, here is how to be as safe as possible".
Exactly. It's just treating these people as young adults, and as hard is it can be to believe that, that's what they are.

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Old 25th January 2006, 16:48   #110
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Originally posted by will
And after all, isn't it best to have a back up plan?
But this isn't really the backup plan.... and you can't tell me that it takes a great deal of discipline to keep your pants on. I find a belt works fine.
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Old 25th January 2006, 16:50   #111
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Originally posted by rockouthippie
But this isn't really the backup plan....
How?

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Old 25th January 2006, 16:51   #112
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Quote:
Originally posted by rockouthippie
But this isn't really the backup plan.... and you can't tell me that it takes a great deal of discipline to keep your pants on. I find a belt works fine.
This serves as little but testament to the fact that you have above-average restraint.

If all human beings were perfect in every way there'd be little need for any rules at all.

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Old 25th January 2006, 17:01   #113
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Originally posted by zootm
This serves as little but testament to the fact that you have above-average restraint.

If all human beings were perfect in every way there'd be little need for any rules at all.
I LEARNED the above average restraint because I was raised to be a christian man and to BE A MAN and take responsibility for my decisions.
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Old 25th January 2006, 17:09   #114
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Originally posted by rockouthippie
I LEARNED the above average restraint because I was raised to be a christian man and to BE A MAN and take responsibility for my decisions.
It's funny, I'm non-Christian, and I can BE A MAN and take responsibility for my actions, and I know plenty of people raised by good Christian families who seemed to avoid LEARNING anything of the sort.

Your situation is neither typical, nor the whole of this.

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Old 25th January 2006, 17:38   #115
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Quote:
Originally posted by zootm
This serves as little but testament to the fact that you have above-average restraint.

If all human beings were perfect in every way there'd be little need for any rules at all.
If the truth of society is that we can't reliably teach kids not to have sex, we might as well give up now. The idiots lacking restraint will have three times as many kids as the smart ones, eventually lowering the average IQ by at least 20 points.
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Old 25th January 2006, 17:44   #116
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Old 25th January 2006, 17:48   #117
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Originally posted by Phyltre
If the truth of society is that we can't reliably teach kids not to have sex, we might as well give up now. The idiots lacking restraint will have three times as many kids as the smart ones, eventually lowering the average IQ by at least 20 points.
Welcome to Scotland.

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Old 25th January 2006, 17:56   #118
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Just take the safety labels off of everything and let natural selection remove the unworthy from the gene pool.
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Old 25th January 2006, 19:00   #119
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Originally posted by Phyltre
If the truth of society is that we can't reliably teach kids not to have sex, we might as well give up now. The idiots lacking restraint will have three times as many kids as the smart ones, eventually lowering the average IQ by at least 20 points.
So this is bad because... the remaining smart ones will have a huge labor pool?

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Old 25th January 2006, 19:52   #120
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So this is bad because... the remaining smart ones will have a huge labor pool?
It is sad because...of the principles of evolution.
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