Old 20th September 2006, 21:23   #121
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Originally posted by Mattress
ahh okay but it is legitimate to describe bush as a fascist, but not terrorists.
If they're exhibiting the characteristics of fascists, go right ahead. But obviously if they're not, they're not.

I personally think that it's occasionally ok to call them fascists, since I think that for many of them their political views warrant it. As for the "characteristics of fascism" link posted, it lists common traits of fascist governments, and I don't think it's relevant.

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Old 21st September 2006, 18:01   #122
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It's certainly relevant if you analyze the present US government which seems to like to project its own traits onto others. Chavez and other world leaders surely see Bush as not only fascist but the devil himself, as he stated in his UN address the other day. He said he could still "smell the sulfur" from Bush's appearanance there. It's a trip to see leaders of nations speak in such terms at a formal assembly like the UN.
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Old 21st September 2006, 18:20   #123
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Orginally posted by Mattress
ahh okay but it is legitimate to describe bush as a fascist, but not terrorists.
What label we place on terrorists is meaningless unless it is used to whip up the populace into a bloodlust.

However, if we have eyes willing to see how many traits of Fascism our current administration matches, we still have the power to alter the government. (I hope)

Nah I don't see George as the Devil, just a puppet on strings doing the bidding of those behind the scenes. The REAL Fascists.
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Old 21st September 2006, 20:58   #124
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I have to concur that Bush is not THE devil and more of a puppet of the bigger devils, but since he is a human being with free will, he can't be a total puppet and should be viewed as at least A devil.
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Old 21st September 2006, 21:56   #125
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You realize you're putting yourself on the same side as Hugo Chavez, right? Even Nancy Pelosi wasn't that insane..
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Old 22nd September 2006, 19:02   #126
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I'm on the side of truth, regardless of who utters it. Chavez is no saint but he does make some valid points at times, like when he said that Bush acts like he owns the world. The man was heavily applauded at the UN. Gas is dirt cheap in Venezuela and Chavez wants to get cheaper fuel to the American consumer while Bush's gang has let big oil companies rip off Americans, cutting their taxes as they make record profits while cutting funding for programs for the poor.

Pelosi is quite liberal but she is still a politician and thus thinks that has to be careful what she says. I'm not running for office so i can speak the truth.
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Old 23rd September 2006, 22:40   #127
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Originally posted by anandamide
I'm on the side of truth, regardless of who utters it. Chavez is no saint but he does make some valid points at times, like when he said that Bush acts like he owns the world.
He does own the world, so what's a matter with acting like it?. Look around. There are two players left. China and the US. The rest of the world is just along for the ride.
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Old 24th September 2006, 19:59   #128
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It seems to be there are way more than 2 players. If a band of terrorists can decimate the World Trade Center, they surely have power to influence things. Agreeing that Bush does own the world is the sort of American arrogance which is one of the main causes of terrorism. Why not uproot that rather than perpetuating the problem with more war?

I'll tell you why -- because those who profit from war want to continue to do so. Here is a story about an Israeli who developed a system to defend against rpg attacks. Rather than buy the system, the US military has chosen to wait years to buy a system from a US manufacturer, endangering the lives of soldiers in the meantime. The stench of the military-industrial complex is getting to a sickening level.
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Old 28th September 2006, 20:59   #129
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Here is a page about that artist who plays the violent army recruiting video game and posts the names of soldiers who were killed in Iraq on the screen. How about a nice round of applause for him, because it's revolting that the military employs such a method when the horrific realities of war are surely far from a video game.
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Old 29th September 2006, 14:43   #130
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If a video game makes the soldiers better at their job, then they should use it. Show us where the army claims that war is like a video game? If anything it's the anti-war people who think like that. They think that by bringing our troops home the war will be over. (just turn the video game off) Unfortunately the war isn't over unless both sides stop. Bringing our troops home will only encourage our enemies to attack us further.
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Old 29th September 2006, 18:36   #131
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That's quite a spin there. In reality, when young players of the army's recruiting video game are saying to themselves, "Gee, this is fun, blowing away these evil people on this screen", the army is in effect saying, "Well, come on down and do it for real", so some do but find out that getting limbs blown off or worse is not fun at all for themselves or their broken-hearted families.

A recent NIE (national intelligence estimate) has admitted that the presence of US forces in Iraq is causing the insurgency to grow. Since many feel that leaving would also cause it to grow, the forces might remain there in a "Brave New World" scenario of war without end, possibly escalating to Armageddon.

On a lighter note, have you folks seen the funny video clip of Bush "drunk" at a press conference? I know it's artistic manipulation, but as art so often does, it really hits home in a way, given Bush's alcoholic past. That goofy smile on his face (and the face of many Republicans actually -- George Allen comes to mind in particular) seems to signal that he and they themselves know they are full of sh!t.
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Old 29th September 2006, 19:31   #132
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The April NIE is a sequel to the pre-war intelligence estimate that documented Saddam Hussein’s stockpiles of chemical weapons and his clandestine nuclear program, so it is considered highly credible by those who oppose the Bush administration’s current Iraq policy.
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Old 30th September 2006, 18:32   #133
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A majority of Americans like myself consider that NIE quite credible when it states that the insurgency is increasing because of US military presence in Iraq. The part about emboldening the terrorists via withdrawal is more questionable. They won't have as much of a reason to continue their protest-terrorism if US foreign policy stops being detrimental to Arabs and Muslims. You see, it's all karmic. We could choose to be more peace-directed or continue down the path to Karmageddon.

I found it creative that someone touched up this music video for John Lennon's song "God" by inserting an image of Bush in the segment that goes "I don't believe in Hitler."
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Old 30th September 2006, 20:20   #134
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Quote:
Originally posted by anandamide
Agreeing that Bush does own the world is the sort of American arrogance which is one of the main causes of terrorism.
The main cause of terrorism is that terrorists are alive because eurolibs and democrats want to talk. They want to talk now, just like they wanted to talk in 1929 when they didn't stop Hitler.

17 years later, 60 million people were dead.

Well, it's not Germany this time. It's the islamic world. And it needs to get it's ass kicked until it agrees to abandon Jihad. You'll notice Nazis didn't fall out of favor until they were mostly dead.

Wait 2 decades, just like WWII waited for european impotence and american liberals to cause a world war.

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Originally posted by anandamide
You see, it's all karmic. We could choose to be more peace-directed or continue down the path to Karmageddon.
Totally. And by spreading peace to our enemies with gigantic bombs, they will find true peace and a amity with Allah. Allah says they get 41 virgins and a Coke.

It's just a matter of helping the terrorists to attain true pieces.... I mean peace.....

Last edited by rockouthippie; 30th September 2006 at 21:33.
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Old 1st October 2006, 08:41   #135
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Old 1st October 2006, 10:47   #136
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Really... how the hell can you negotiate things that are not negotiable?. This terrorism that europe has suffered more than us is not up for negotiation. The arabs will not be allowed to build the radical islamic superpower they want. They will not be allowed to kill americans and wage war against peaceful nations. They will not be allowed to kill Israel.

Say the secret word and win a MOAB. The secret word is Jihad.
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Old 1st October 2006, 21:16   #137
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We might indeed be close to Karmageddon if that is how neo-hippies think. John Lennon is vomiting in his grave. I can only hope that rockouthippie doesn't speak for most hippies who are supposed to be about flower power and love, not megabombs.

Failing to address the root causes of protest-terrorism feeds conquest-terrorism. The right-wingers are feeding a vicious cycle. If Karmageddon is indeed inevitable, perhaps the superconscious mind of God has always known man would destroy the whole ball of wax if left on his own.

I thought suicide jihadists were supposed to earn 72 virgins and a diet pepsi. Why do you always cut them short? I don't personally agree with a violent approach to get things done, but i have to respect that they at least look beyond this measly material life rather than act like this is all there is, as most Westerners do. Securing this short life is not was is most beneficial to a soul.

The terrorists would be wiser if they adopted a non-violent Gandhi-like approach, an approach which not only freed India from British rule but was beneficial to their souls in the eternal scope. Similarly the West would be wiser if it could find non-violent solutions. I can't help but keep thinking about what General McArthur said at the end of WW2, that if man cannot find some other way than war to resolve disputes, we'd be facing the end of days.

The terrorists have some valid gripes. Their means of trying to correct the problem is not wise, but the West's present response to terrorism is equally unwise. Terrorism is a symptom of a disease. Warring against a symptom will not cure the disease, but keep it going. Warring against war with war won't get it done in the end. That was what McArthur sensed.
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Old 2nd October 2006, 22:21   #138
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Originally posted by anandamide
We might indeed be close to Karmageddon if that is how neo-hippies think. John Lennon is vomiting in his grave. I can only hope that rockouthippie doesn't speak for most hippies who are supposed to be about flower power and love, not megabombs.
Not all hippies are communists like Lennon. And I like flowers. Remind me to plant some on top of people who want to kill us for no good reason. Besides, we all ended up in the pen or sold out anyway. And being a hippie bears little resemblance to modern liberalism.

Quote:
Failing to address the root causes of protest-terrorism feeds conquest-terrorism.
Masturbating and failing to send these SOBs to hell is the main problem.

Quote:
The terrorists would be wiser if they adopted a non-violent Gandhi-like approach, an approach which not only freed India from British rule
Until then, bomb em'. Where's the babies room?. And freedom for India. Yeah, like that and a buck will get you coffee.

Quote:
The terrorists have some valid gripes.
Being dead should cure that.

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Old 3rd October 2006, 00:08   #139
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Quote:
Originally posted by rockouthippie
Really... how the hell can you negotiate things that are not negotiable?. This terrorism that europe has suffered more than us is not up for negotiation. The arabs will not be allowed to build the radical islamic superpower they want. They will not be allowed to kill americans and wage war against peaceful nations. They will not be allowed to kill Israel.

Say the secret word and win a MOAB. The secret word is Jihad.

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Old 3rd October 2006, 18:14   #140
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You guys say "they will not be allowed to kill Americans" but Americans are being served up to them on a silver platter in their back yard. It's a shooting gallery over there, with no end in sight.

If the threat was truly as great as the hyperbolic term Islamofascism implies, why hasn't the draft been reinstated?
Because they know that would be political suicide, so that's another way US soldiers are being put in additional danger by being stretched too thin, thanks to right wing politics. Another reason given for not putting more troops into the theater is that they want to guard against being viewed as occupiers, but that is already the case even with the number of troops there.

The latest scandal to rock the GOP involves a congressman who has resigned for making homosexual advances on a 16 year old page, this from the party which was supposed to stand for conservative family values. The bs is getting so deep, it's a wonder any of us can breathe.

To me, the only way the Republicans can keep control of congress is to produce the dead carcass of Bin Laden before election day, or tamper with voting machines. Otherwise the Dems take control back, and may the impeachment proceedings begin.
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Old 3rd October 2006, 21:21   #141
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Oringally quoted by Rockouthippie
Not all hippies are communists like Lennon. And I like flowers. Remind me to plant some on top of people who want to kill us for no good reason. Besides, we all ended up in the pen or sold out anyway. And being a hippie bears little resemblance to modern liberalism.
Who sold you out? Were you the one at Dead concerts pushing bad acid? What did they do to you in the pen that filled you so full of anger and hatred?

Violence begets violence begets unspeakable horrors. Will it take your child coming home in a box before you wake up and say there has got to be a better way?

Keep on believing we were attacked for no reason. Keep on believing that spilling blood and creating widows is the ultimate solution for solving the world's problems. And for sure keep on believing that their children are somehow less valuable than ours. True American values!!

Not Me!

Have you seen the flags of freedom?
What color are they now?
Do you think you believe in yours ,
more than they do some how?
Neil Young


No more lies.
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Old 4th October 2006, 18:34   #142
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Amen, Germain. If we are at a point where even hippies are pro-war, we are truly at an alarming point in history.

This Neil Young interview about his "Let's Impeach The Prez" song is worth checking out.

If you're in the mood for some humour instead, this 1 minute video of funny idiotic Bush remarks is sure to hit the spot.

If you'd rather look into the intelligence level of the president more thoroughly, here is a 10 minute discussion about whether Bush is an idiot, hosted by a conservative tv host who has recently admitted Nancy Pelosi will soon be the speaker of the house.

How anyone could be comfortable with a president with such a low level of intelligence is beyond me. Choosing him over John Kerry was a crime on the part of the public, that is, if the votes were correctly counted.
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Old 4th October 2006, 21:01   #143
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Originally posted by anandamide
Amen, Germain. If we are at a point where even hippies are pro-war, we are truly at an alarming point in history.
What pro war?. Nobody asked me. I thought it was a horrible idea. But then neither democrats or republicans seemed to have common sense when we embraced this folly. What made it the biggest folly is that we thought we could do it without having the committment to do it right. Partisan bickering plays a big role in that.

We have a problem though. The radical islamics have made it very clear that the only way that we could appease them is if we were all dead.

Negotiations have only been undertaken on their part, when it improves the achievement of their goal. That is to kill us.

Since this is obvious. I think our response should be absolutely martial.

Instead of being too aggressive, I don't think we are being agressive enough. Instead of figuring out how to get a quarter million troops home, we should be figuring out how to place a few million men there.

When the new Iraqi government says it wants to kill Israel too, ya gotta wonder.

Eventually, we're gonna have to take all the guns back away from the monkeys we gave them to.

Last edited by rockouthippie; 4th October 2006 at 21:18.
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Old 5th October 2006, 22:48   #144
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Less of them would be joining ranks with those extremists who want all Americans dead if the US started being more just in its middle east dealings. The US needs to engage strongly on establishing the 2 state solution in Israel-Palestine, rather than not calling for an immediate cease-fire and pumping Israel up with more bombs when hostilities flare up.

Putting alot more troops into that region MIGHT settle things down some, but in the long run, rebellion would be inevitable because that would be viewed as a virtual annexation of the area. Just like was the case in Vietnam, people prefer to wipe their butts with their bare hands rather than use fancy American toilet paper.

A 25 million dollar reward has not brought in Bin Laden because those people don't worship money over there as many in the West do. They have a different culture with different values and don't desire to live like stiff-suited, corporate Americans. Can't you see that?
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Old 5th October 2006, 22:59   #145
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Less of them would be joining ranks with those extremists who want all Americans dead if the US started being more just in its middle east dealings. The US needs to engage strongly on establishing the 2 state solution in Israel-Palestine
Bull.

The US and the Palestinian problems have been negotiated to "successful" conclusions several times in my lifetime. The Palestinians have been given everything they wanted as recently as a decade ago, but it did not stop the militancy against Israel. Nobel peace prize winning Yassar Arafat who negotiated one of the early peace deals, ended up being a target of his own people.

If the Palestinians wanted a 2 state solution, they had the opportunity this year. Instead they elected a terrorist government.

I worked as a salesman for some years. One of the things you do is called "overcoming objections". That's when you address issues that a customer might have, so you can sell them something.

If I were selling peace in the middle east, when I got to this stage of the sale, I'd have real problems. The customer objection is that I am alive.

How do I overcome that objection?.

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Old 6th October 2006, 00:09   #146
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Outside of the odd meglomaniac all wars are fought to gain access to resources or markets and expand spheres of influnce, always have been.

For The Western world this means oil, for Israel this means water.

Just as every move made by America is aimed at securing control over dwindling oil supplies, so with Israel it is securing dwindling water supplies. There can be no sustained development without it.

Pointers can be found in the areas occupied by Israeli 'settlers', only those areas with good wells and water supplies. The areas where they have withdrawn from occupied lands have all been pretty worthless, only the good areas are retained.

Developed states use large amounts of water, so Israel's neighbours have all had their infrastucture comprehensively trashed. This goes under the title of 'Bombing them back to the Stone Age'

You could try getting the fuck off their land and out of their faces, they may even start to find you less objectionable.

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Old 6th October 2006, 01:36   #147
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[B]Developed states use large amounts of water, so Israel's neighbours have all had their infrastucture comprehensively trashed. This goes under the title of 'Bombing them back to the Stone Age'

You could try getting the fuck off their land and out of their faces, they may even start to find you less objectionable
Repeatedly this has been proven wrong. They find our very existence and yours objectionable.

Europe dumped a few million jews in the middle east, I think think hoping that the arabs would eat them. They didn't. Europe can quit being a cheering section for getting Israelis killed. And I think europeans can forget about any moral high ground in that millions of their countrymen preferred to move to a barren desert than live in their homelands. This would be like americans rounding up all the black people and shipping them back to africa. But we're backwards or bigoted?.

Europe should unanimously shut up about Israel. It's a mess you guys made. The jews did not come from Kansas.

The Israelis do what they have to do to protect themselves. Nothing more, and probably less. US involvement is necessary, stabilizing and responsible.

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Old 6th October 2006, 04:44   #148
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Repeatedly this has been proven wrong.

Repeatedly this has never been tried, and now it has moved too far down the road for either side to turn back.

When the State was first set up there was a genuine urge to assimilate the Palastinians into the new society and develop the land. I got to know some Israelis at the time, even had friends who went to live on kibbutzs, there was very little 'us and them' and everyone building a State.

Such idealism quickly died in the face of outside influence and, more and more, such sentiments were marginalised. The fat cats moved in and the grabbing had begun.
The situation was not helped by the surrounding states who blocked any kind of assimilation of displaced Palastinians and set up huge border camps instead, a sure recipe for disastrous relations.

It's a great shame.

Europe should unanimously shut up about Israel. It's a mess you guys made. The jews did not come from Kansas.

Not so, a lot of the Jews with large interests and large amounts of influence in Israel do come from America. One of the complaints I've heard from Israelis is that the country has lost it's self determination to America.

US involvement is necessary, stabilizing and responsible.

That's debatable. While the latest fighting took place I saw little done until the arm's dealers order books were well and truely stuffed. We even had the spectacle of American planes flying in the bombs that were being used.

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Old 6th October 2006, 05:29   #149
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If not for US involvement in the 1967 war, Israel would be dead at the hands of Jordan and Egypt.

Debate?.

Yeah, arms dealing. The whole place looks like a soviet garage sale.

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Old 6th October 2006, 17:33   #150
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There were periods of relative peace in Israel-Palestine when the peace movement was on track. The US attacking Iraq without the support of most of the world has set up a climate of war, leading the situation to crumble to the point of the recent Israel-Hezbollah War. Bush's "Give War A Chance" stance is a cancer that needs to be radiated.
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Old 6th October 2006, 19:25   #151
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The reason the US doesn't and didn't have world support is that Saddam bought the security council. The largest bribe involves a billion sent to Putin. Lesser ones include major oil field grants to France.

Find me a successful diplomaticly negotiated peace. It's arab nations running home, tail between legs that makes peace.

Peace does exist, technically with Lebanon, and officially with Syria, Egypt and Jordan. The reason there is peace is because they got their ass kicked.

Peace negotiations were like:

"Well dude, you got your ass kicked, so I guess we could have peace now."

These are success stories in peace. Palestine isn't one. And Jordan, Syria and Egypt will stay out of Israel, just as long as they know they will get their ass kicked. Not a minute longer.

There is your peace.

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Old 7th October 2006, 04:55   #152
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Quote:
Originally posted by Mattress
If a video game makes the soldiers better at their job, then they should use it. Show us where the army claims that war is like a video game? If anything it's the anti-war people who think like that. They think that by bringing our troops home the war will be over. (just turn the video game off) Unfortunately the war isn't over unless both sides stop. Bringing our troops home will only encourage our enemies to attack us further.
Yes, but so will leaving them in. This is the dilemma our idiot president has gotten us into. Invading Iraq was the stupidest thing the government has done in my lifetime, and yes, I was alive for Vietnam-- but if we were actually going to win the peace, and give the people of Iraq the stable, democratic country we owe them, I'd be all for staying. If we're not going to succeed, we should just cut everyone's losses and get out. Right now, it doesn't look good, and it keeps looking worse and worse. Until Bush shows some sign that he's willing to take a diferent approach, i.e., firing that boob Rumsfeld, getting out seems lke the best option.

Regarding the video game, I've never played it, but if ii functions as an educational tool, that sounds positive. If it's an advertising gimmick, and if it presents an unrealistic view of what being a soldier is like, that's fucked up.
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Old 7th October 2006, 19:10   #153
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That army video game is definitely an advertising gimmick, as a substantial percentage of recruits say they enlisted specifically because of the game which of course can't possibly give a realistic sense of what being a soldier in actual combat is like because a joystick and a screen is nothing like a real life IED or RPG and their effects.

Bribery on the part of Saddam doesn't explain why most of the world was against the Iraq War. They were against it because they correctly perceived that it was for phony reasons.

Military victory was able to force peace for periods of time in the past, but it's a different scenario now. When the enemy is not a single nation or axis of nations but a scattered band of terrorists who keep coming back like cockroaches, even the smartest of bombs can't get the job done. In the end, brute force is not the ticket. Terrorism isn't even the true enemy. The true enemy is lack of understanding.

To 18th century England George Washington was no doubt seen as a terrorist, but to Americans he was a freedom fighter. Fighting for freedom from foreign domination is not terrorism to those fighting for it. Their methods might be despicable but people will use whatever is available to them when desperate. The US dropped 2 atomic bombs on Japanese children when they weren't even desperate for victory. Eisenhower said "we didn't need to use that awful thing" and it was Ike who also was the one warning against the military-industrial complex when he left office.
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Old 7th October 2006, 20:55   #154
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Eisenhower said "we didn't need to use that awful thing" and it was Ike who also was the one warning against the military-industrial complex when he left office.
I'm curious to where you heard that, the closest I can find is General Carter Clarke. Just making sure you didn't mistake the quote...
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Old 8th October 2006, 20:06   #155
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Any decent search engine should bring that up instantly, like these Google results.
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Old 3rd November 2006, 23:37   #156
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Earlier in this thread i mentioned the "Star Trek" episode where Spok was thrown into a barbaric dimension and was disgusted to find himself eating meat. A Youtuber was nice enough to reconstruct that segment. See "Vegetarian Spock".

In stark contrast to Spok's disgust with himself, see "Bush & The Pig" where the president is asked important questions about the world situation and can only express interest in the pig dinner scheduled that night. Mr. President, you're no Spok.

4 days from election day, it looks like The Pig Party is about to be crashed. All polls point to a Democratic take-over of the House Of Reps and the Senate is close to tipping as well. Man would that be sweet if they both tip.
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Old 15th November 2006, 02:38   #157
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I think we would have been better off with Ralph Nader!
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Old 15th November 2006, 19:08   #158
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Ralph Nader stands for alot of good things but he is one reason a jerk like GWB became president in the first place because people cast votes for him that otherwise would have gone for Bush's opponents.

I cried a bit when the Dems took control of Congress back because that's at least a sign of hope. The public at large might be slow but they are not braindead!

Phase 1 of the potential impeachment of GWB & Cheney is accomplished. If investigations of them take their natural course, God only knows what we will see exposed. It sickens me to see disfigured young soldiers. When looking at a soldier with his brain sticking out because doctors had to remove a chunk of his skull to relieve pressure, it's a wonder that those who launched this sick war can get to sleep at night.
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Old 7th December 2006, 20:09   #159
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Bush's behavior reminds me of that old "Twilight Zone" episode where a young kid with supernatural powers kept doing awful things with it but noone around him did anything about it out of fear that he would harm them.

What is the deal with the thread "Bush Singing 'Give War A Chance'" at the KBVR forum? It appears that some spam-bot has added many worthless pages to it. Can someone tell them how to utilize a spam-bot filter?
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