Old 23rd July 2006, 12:59   #81
spiderbaby1958
Major Dude
 
spiderbaby1958's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Binghamton, NY
Posts: 789
Quote:
Originally posted by zootm
Did you really have any need for the advanced file manipulations you describe before then? I've got bash on my Windows machine and my Linux machines and I rarely, if ever, have to use it. Certainly not enough to justify learning it if I did not already. I use it at work because when administrating server applications or playing with large text files it's handy. But that's about it.
Well, I don't need them. They save me lots and lots of time and I like that. I mean, what the fuck? When I say that it's saved me hours of drudgery, do you think that I'm making that up?

Look, I'm sorry, but if I'm getting great results, and you're not getting great results, why am I supposed to listen to you? By any objective standard, if I'm getting great results, and you're not getting great results, that makes me right and you wrong. Empirically, the only two possibilities are that I have hallucinated the last two years of my computer experience, or that you haven't quite grasped the potential of the cli.

The cli also provides me with an opportunity to approach everyday computing tasks with creativity, and that makes things a lot more fun.

And jesus christ, is it really that hard to learn? All the commands that I know have the same simple syntax, like an english sentence without a preposition.

cp file.txt directory = copy text file to directory

What's the big deal? You learn a couple of commnads, you learn how manpages work, and you're on your way.

I don't know the windows CLI, but it seems to me that there can't be a lot that you can do with it, just because there can't be a lot of software to run on it. Am I right?
spiderbaby1958 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23rd July 2006, 13:37   #82
zootm
Forum King
 
zootm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: the nether reaches of bonnie scotland
Posts: 13,375
Quote:
Originally posted by spiderbaby1958
Well, I don't need them. They save me lots and lots of time and I like that. I mean, what the fuck? When I say that it's saved me hours of drudgery, do you think that I'm making that up?
Nope. I do think you're overreacting though. You appeared to be saying you thought it was of great use to many people on the desktop. That's just not the case.

Quote:
Originally posted by spiderbaby1958
Look, I'm sorry, but if I'm getting great results, and you're not getting great results, why am I supposed to listen to you? By any objective standard, if I'm getting great results, and you're not getting great results, that makes me right and you wrong. Empirically, the only two possibilities are that I have hallucinated the last two years of my computer experience, or that you haven't quite grasped the potential of the cli.
I think you've managed to completely ignore my previous posts and their points, but let me just make this clear - you learned the CLI and you're putting it to good use, good for you. I'm interested to know where you thought that I was disagreeing with you on any point other than that the CLI is a useful thing for most desktop users to bother to learn.

Quote:
Originally posted by spiderbaby1958
And jesus christ, is it really that hard to learn? All the commands that I know have the same simple syntax, like an english sentence without a preposition.
You'd be surprised how difficult some people find these things. The fact that someone is willing to try is generally good enough to let them get simple commands down, though.

Quote:
Originally posted by spiderbaby1958
I don't know the windows CLI, but it seems to me that there can't be a lot that you can do with it, just because there can't be a lot of software to run on it. Am I right?
Not really, but the command line on Windows certainly has different priorities. There's very little actual processing instructions for it because it's not really supposed to be a complex scripting language. If you want to do UNIX-y stuff on Windows, though, it's not like you can't just download bash for Windows (via Cygwin or whatever) and use that.

zootm is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23rd July 2006, 15:27   #83
spiderbaby1958
Major Dude
 
spiderbaby1958's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Binghamton, NY
Posts: 789
Wow, I never knew there was auch a thing as BASH for windows! If I ever find myself using Windows again, I'm definitely going to want to learn more about that. This could change my whole opinion of Windows.

I think you've summed up my position very well. I have to say that I absolutely do believe that the command line is a great tool for the Linux desktop user, depending upon how much time they spend using the computer, and how long they expect to live. You only have to learn the commands that you use all the time, and that makes it pretty efficient.

I have no other point, so whether you agree or disagree on any other point doesn't matter, for purposes of this discussion. Also , please be aware that I'm not just talking to you, so in expressing my position, I'n not really bothering to keep track of who is saying what.

Of course, most desktop users won't learn the cli, and NOBODY is going to start with the CLI. I know that, and I've stressed the importance of the gui in here several times. Especially for Linux, this is where development needs to be centered. There are still a few holes in the GNU/Linux GUI, though they're closing fast. People should be able to start out knowing nothing, and gain in power as they learn more... not because they need to, but because it empowers them to do more. I'm not one of those guys who says that the gui is for losers, and the cli is the only real interface. I know that those guys are out there, but I'm not one of them. With Linux, the GUI and the CLI don't need to compete; they make a great team.

No one had a harder time learning Linux than I did, because I hate reading manuals, but for me every other aspect of learning Linux (installation, package management, administration) was more difficult than the CLI, for just that reason. If you hate reading manuals, the manpage is a godsend, because you don't really have to read it. It expresses the syntax of a command in an irreducable formula, and you really can pick it up at a glance. You get the syntax, you scroll down to find the options you need, and you're outa there. And, of course, it's just handy. you go right straight to the information that you need.

And there's the automation factor. Sure, most people don't know what a shell script is, but it's really just a command in a text file. Any command can be a script, and that includes a compound command. My scripts are very crude. I take a bunch of commands and list them in a text file with spaces and semicolons between the commands and the computer executes the commands in sequence, so I can go take a shower or clean the cat box or watch porn instead of sitting there click click clicking. I've done this in very everyday desktop situations and it's saved me hours and hours of time.

I've also used the command line to create instant playlists for playing music with mplayer, or to locate a particular mp3 and start the player in just a few seconds with one command. If I want to watch a movie while I fall asleep, and then play a loop of the ocean all night while I sleep, I can do that with a compound command. I can play the same file three times, play the next file once, the third file endlessly.

Last edited by spiderbaby1958; 23rd July 2006 at 17:55.
spiderbaby1958 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23rd July 2006, 19:18   #84
rockouthippie
Banned
 
rockouthippie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Oregon
Posts: 11,002
If anyone wants to try out my slax linux boot CD, you can get that :

http://retrovision*****?page_id=98

Burn this image with nero. One of the little credit card CDs will work, but you can also use a normal CD-R.

Boot it. It doesn't install anything, It just loads the whole OS in memory and runs. Any windows hard disks are read-only.

This runs firefox and has all the multimedia goodies like vlc and mplayer already installed,

You need 512 M of ram and maybe a 600mhz machine to run this.
rockouthippie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23rd July 2006, 19:30   #85
spiderbaby1958
Major Dude
 
spiderbaby1958's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Binghamton, NY
Posts: 789
Links: really really really simple programming

Here's a link to a thread I posted in my favorite linux forum about a crude shell script I wrote called text2mp3, which makes mp3 files out of text files, a hundred at a time.

http://justlinux.com/forum/showthread.php?t=143995

As I've already said, this script has saved me about a dozen hours of boring drudge work, based on the time I had spent before using a gui-based program called for windows called "Read Please".

It's just a long list of numbered commands, what I call a "counting script". A "real" shell scripter would come up with a script that would use "loops and conditions" to apply the same command over and over. (someone does just that in the thread) Maybe I'll learn how to do that one day, but this crude and lengthy script simply executes the commands one by one, in numbered sequence. A counting script takes a group of numbered files and processes them one by one, by the numbers, while I go do something else. They're also great for opening large numbers of zip files. Back when I was using winzip, opening a hundred zipfiles was tedious and time consuming.

To aid me in the creation of my crude scripts, I have created a crude tool, this blogspot page:

http://ninenineninenine.blogspot.com/

I never finished the tutoriala at the top, but the real value is farther down in the long sequences of numbers, framed by characters like @#$&. By copy and pasting the numbers into a text editor using the characters as values for search and replace, you can make up one of these scripts pretty fast, without typing all the numbers one by one.

I don't know if that's clear or not. I'm not suggesting that anyone do this. I'm just using this as example of something I made up for my own use, and in the context of my own use, it kicks ass! I'm sure someone could make up a gui to do this, but to the best of my knowledge, no one has, and I think its nice that I didn't have to wait around for that to happen.
spiderbaby1958 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23rd July 2006, 20:08   #86
zootm
Forum King
 
zootm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: the nether reaches of bonnie scotland
Posts: 13,375
Re: Links: really really really simple programming

Quote:
Originally posted by spiderbaby1958
Here's a link to a thread I posted in my favorite linux forum about a crude shell script I wrote called text2mp3, which makes mp3 files out of text files, a hundred at a time.

http://justlinux.com/forum/showthread.php?t=143995
In case nobody answered this question:

Quote:
Frankly, I have no idea what the "-o" option signifies.
It means "output filename".

zootm is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23rd July 2006, 20:20   #87
k_rock923
\m/
(Forum King)
 
k_rock923's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: /bin/bash
Posts: 7,850
Send a message via AIM to k_rock923
This is what the 'man' command is for. . .

not to mention that -o is quite often output filename.

Never underestimate the bandwidth of a station wagon full of tapes hurtling down the highway.
k_rock923 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23rd July 2006, 21:24   #88
zootm
Forum King
 
zootm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: the nether reaches of bonnie scotland
Posts: 13,375
Just thought I'd help out

zootm is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24th July 2006, 03:37   #89
spiderbaby1958
Major Dude
 
spiderbaby1958's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Binghamton, NY
Posts: 789
Quote:
Originally posted by k_rock923
This is what the 'man' command is for. . .

Oh this is just wonderful... so now, after all that, k_rock923 is gonna get all "more command line than thou" on me??? (sigh) We all know what the man command is for, k_rock.

I'm pretty sure that my point was that I didn't need to know what the option meant, which ties in with my overall theme of how it doesn't take that much knowledge to write a crude script that works.

I use commands and options I don't fully understand all the time. I get them from documentation, from forums, from more experienced users in IRC, and sometimes from the manpage. I keep them handy in a textfile, which I periodically back up to a notepad page in my yahoo email account. When I want to use them, I copy them into the command line, or into one of my funny-looking scripts, and they work. . And as Robert Blake used to say in those old STP commercials, that's the name of that tune!
spiderbaby1958 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24th July 2006, 10:40   #90
k_rock923
\m/
(Forum King)
 
k_rock923's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: /bin/bash
Posts: 7,850
Send a message via AIM to k_rock923
No spiderbaby, my point is that the man command enables you to learn how to use a command that you don't already know how to use. You can go and read manpages all day and learn as much as you want, or you can only look up what you need to know. But the information is there, you just have to look for it.

Never underestimate the bandwidth of a station wagon full of tapes hurtling down the highway.
k_rock923 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24th July 2006, 10:51   #91
zootm
Forum King
 
zootm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: the nether reaches of bonnie scotland
Posts: 13,375
Of course, man is pretty useless without apropos (or Google)

zootm is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24th July 2006, 11:04   #92
k_rock923
\m/
(Forum King)
 
k_rock923's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: /bin/bash
Posts: 7,850
Send a message via AIM to k_rock923
true

Never underestimate the bandwidth of a station wagon full of tapes hurtling down the highway.
k_rock923 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24th July 2006, 16:16   #93
spiderbaby1958
Major Dude
 
spiderbaby1958's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Binghamton, NY
Posts: 789
It's cool, K-rock, I was just razzin you. The important thing is that we have totally raped Bill Gates' retirement thread!

Believe it or not, I've never used apropos. I should start looking at that.
spiderbaby1958 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25th July 2006, 01:50   #94
spiderbaby1958
Major Dude
 
spiderbaby1958's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Binghamton, NY
Posts: 789
Quote:
Originally posted by zootm
Did you really have any need for the advanced file manipulations you describe before then? I've got bash on my Windows machine and my Linux machines and I rarely, if ever, have to use it. Certainly not enough to justify learning it if I did not already. I use it at work because when administrating server applications or playing with large text files it's handy. But that's about it.
Quote:
Originally posted by zootm
I'm interested to know where you thought that I was disagreeing with you on any point other than that the CLI is a useful thing for most desktop users to bother to learn.
Quote:
Originally posted by zootm

Most people will never have to manually create a folder for every letter of the alphabet anyway, though. The things that CLIs are useful for are genuinely needless for most computer users. That doesn't mean they're useless, it just means that they can often be useless.

CLIs are very useful. Once you get used to them, it is extremely easy to overstate their usefulness, though, particularly when your computing use is well-suited to them.

Shall I tell you how I came up with that example?

I was sorting through porno files. I had paid thirty dollars for a month's subscription to a premium site, and so, of course, I was trying to snag as many image files as I possibly could, and I wound up with directories crammed with thousands and thousands of images, so many that when I would try to preview the images en masse by opening the directory in nautilus, it would slow down the system. Therefore, I decided that I wanted to break the files up into smaller directories, and this was how I chose to do it. Another user might choose another strategy for breaking a larger directory into smaller files, but I submit that breaking down a large directory into smaller, more managable directories is a situation that many, many desktop users are going to face in a computing lifetime, probably more than once.

In my everyday use, the CLI is nowhere more useful than in managing my porno collection, because of all those small files that are generated. I could have also mentioned how I sent those thousands of files into their respective directories in about twelve minutes.** I could also have mentioned how I copied a list of hundreds of zipfiles to my text editor, used search and replace, and in a few minutes created a command that opened them all automatically, or I could have mentioned how I used my text editor, search and replace, and regular expressions to create a long list of URLs that allowed me to streamline and automate my porn downloading, with the help of the wget, the command-line download manager.

Now what was that other example of "advanced file manipulations."

Quote:
Originally posted by spiderbaby1958

If I have a big directory of mp3's, and I want to sort out all the Rolling Stones files into a seprerate directory, I type:

mkdir rolling_stones ; mv *[Rr]olling*[Ss]tones*mp3 rolling_stones

and it's done. The directory is created, and all mp3 files containing the words "rolling stones" are immediately transported into that file, no matter where the words appear in the name of the file, at the the beginning or at the end, capitalized or lower case, with or without "The" at the beginning.
Ah yes, sorting mp3s.

I guess that you have me at disadvantage here. I can't really point to any statistics or anything, but I'm going to have go with my gut feeling, and assert my belief that sorting music files is a situation that a large number of desktop users will encounter in a computing lifetime. I'd feel better if I had some scientific proof of this. We may have to agree to disagree on this one.

So much of what the CLI can do for the desktop user is about sorting files, which used to take up so much of my time, and was really really boring. Creating solutions with the CLI saves time, and is creative and fun to boot. When it comes to sorting files, there's magic in the CLI, and that magic is usually called "*"

I know that you think I'm taking this argument personally, but that's not really it. It's just that you're so very very wrong. You have elevated wrongness to the level of a superpwer. You know how dead Abraham Lincoln is? That's how wrong you are. I 'm talking about porn and mp3s. What says "desktop user" more than that?

Besides that, whether you realize it or not, you're arguing against knowledge, and defending igorance, and that's just wrong on general principle.

Now, I have no idea whether other people would find the CLI too hard to learn. That's beside the point I'm arguing. If you think other people are that stupid, I kind of doubt it, but as to the question of whether or not they would find it useful? No question.

**If I ever face the same task, I'll be able to create a crude script that will automate the process of creating the directories, and then sorting the files into the directories, all thogether in on single comman trigger. Unless I know more than I do now, my script will be just like the other script I mentioned, a repetative, rote list of commands, but I can use macros in emacs, or search and replace in just about any text editor, to greatly the tedium, AND the beauty of this, of course, is that I can save the script and use it again if I ever face the same situation, or perhaps redit it to accodate a slightly different situation.

Last edited by spiderbaby1958; 25th July 2006 at 04:13.
spiderbaby1958 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25th July 2006, 04:04   #95
swingdjted
DRINK BEER NOW
(Forum King)
 
swingdjted's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Northern West Virginia
Posts: 9,990
Send a message via AIM to swingdjted Send a message via Yahoo to swingdjted
Quote:
I know that you think I'm taking this argument personally, but that's not really it. It's just that you're so very very [i]wrong. You so wrong that if you were a comic book hero, wrongness would be your superpower. You know how dead Abraham Lincoln is? That's How wrong you are.
Stop the flaming. If someone's "wrong" you can say why but don't dance around like you won a lifetime supply of free skanky prostitutes. So what if someone's wrong? Double posting multiple times in the same thread can be viewed as wrong. I don't mind you mentioning it to someone, but damn, you celebrate like it's the first time you've been right in a few decades.

Managing files is as easy as putting them in the right place from the start. If you were lazy and didn't, you can still do a quick search, then cut/paste. I do DJ work with an enormous amount of ripped CDs (so I don't have to carry suitcases) and keep my files sorted quite easily without needing anything else.

In the music sorting (Rolling Stones) example, you're at risk of moving something you don't want to be moved, especially if it's a song including multiple artists.

I don't know about anyone else here, but I don't really want pornography on my computer, or anywhere else in my place. I'll just enjoy my engagement if I need something like that.

Don't forget to live before you die.
swingdjted is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25th July 2006, 05:03   #96
spiderbaby1958
Major Dude
 
spiderbaby1958's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Binghamton, NY
Posts: 789
Quote:
Originally posted by swingdjted
Stop the flaming. If someone's "wrong" you can say why but don't dance around like you won a lifetime supply of free skanky prostitutes. So what if someone's wrong? Double posting multiple times in the same thread can be viewed as wrong. I don't mind you mentioning it to someone, but damn, you celebrate like it's the first time you've been right in a few decades.

Managing files is as easy as putting them in the right place from the start. If you were lazy and didn't, you can still do a quick search, then cut/paste. I do DJ work with an enormous amount of ripped CDs (so I don't have to carry suitcases) and keep my files sorted quite easily without needing anything else.

In the music sorting (Rolling Stones) example, you're at risk of moving something you don't want to be moved, especially if it's a song including multiple artists.

I don't know about anyone else here, but I don't really want pornography on my computer, or anywhere else in my place. I'll just enjoy my engagement if I need something like that.
Bullshit. I do not celebrate ignorance. I vigorously oppose it, and I'm proud of that. This is like going around telling people that they shouldn't bother learning how to read. It's just wrong. When people vociferously defend ignorance over knowledge, that offends me.

To attack someone's idea is not flaming. Flaming is when you attack someone'scharacter. Like the reference to "skanky prostitutes", for example. I'm glad you have a fiancee, but I don't, and I'm not interested in your opinion of how I deal with that. Fuck off. I'm talking about file management. Whether it's porn or mp3 or recipes or medical records or family vacation photos.

Moving a file by accident is always a possibility. There are things that can be done about that, but I don't want to get that far into the minutiae. A quick visual check is always a good idea, if it's something crucial. Personally, if I put the wrong entertainment file in the wrong place, it's not a tragedy.

The bit about putting the file in the right place to begin with: you are joking, right? If by any chance, you're not, I really don't want to know, and you're better off not teling anyone.
spiderbaby1958 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25th July 2006, 06:57   #97
zootm
Forum King
 
zootm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: the nether reaches of bonnie scotland
Posts: 13,375
Quote:
Originally posted by spiderbaby1958
Another user might choose another strategy for breaking a larger directory into smaller files, but I submit that breaking down a large directory into smaller, more managable directories is a situation that many, many desktop users are going to face in a computing lifetime, probably more than once.
Nope. This sort of "power sorting" tends to largely only be practiced by more advanced users, and even then it's very rarely conducted in a way that an interactive shell would help.

Quote:
Originally posted by spiderbaby1958
I can't really point to any statistics or anything, but I'm going to have go with my gut feeling, and assert my belief that sorting music files is a situation that a large number of desktop users will encounter in a computing lifetime.
Most modern audio players sort media automatically in their interfaces by their metadata these days (and some even sort them into an on-disk arrangement automatically too, which I know a lot of people don't like, but these are largely "advanced users" as well) so that's not something really relevant these days either. I've never sorted my music collection directly, because ripped CDs get put into the correct folders at the time.

I'm yet to think of a non-advanced desktop use for the command line that would not be better filled by better software. Most of the examples given are simply indicative of what I would consider flaws in the existing software.

Quote:
Originally posted by spiderbaby1958
Besides that, whether you realize it or not, you're arguing against knowledge, and defending igorance, and that's just wrong on general principle.
No, no, no. I am arguing against users grinning and bearing an inferior experience simply because their software does not perform menial tasks for them. People shouldn't have to bother learning things like this. There's better things they could be learning. If they want to learn, that's great, though, obviously.

zootm is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25th July 2006, 07:29   #98
spiderbaby1958
Major Dude
 
spiderbaby1958's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Binghamton, NY
Posts: 789
http://justlinux.com/forum/showthrea...hreadid=146464
spiderbaby1958 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25th July 2006, 10:58   #99
zootm
Forum King
 
zootm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: the nether reaches of bonnie scotland
Posts: 13,375
Oh Christ almighty.

zootm is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25th July 2006, 11:19   #100
k_rock923
\m/
(Forum King)
 
k_rock923's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: /bin/bash
Posts: 7,850
Send a message via AIM to k_rock923
Spiderbaby, I sure hope that wasn't actually you. This thread has gotten way out of control. Haven't we all agreed that while CLI is useful, it's not practical to replace the GUI with it, and vice versa? They coexist. One is better for some things, the other is better for others.

Never underestimate the bandwidth of a station wagon full of tapes hurtling down the highway.
k_rock923 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25th July 2006, 14:20   #101
xzxzzx
Forum King
 
xzxzzx's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 7,254
Quote:
Originally posted by zootm
Oh Christ almighty.
Hehe. Check it out zootm. You actually sound like you know what you're talking about!

Freedom of speech is the basic freedom of humanity. When you've lost that, you've lost everything.
1\/\/4y 34|<$p4y 1gp4y 33714y, 0d4y 0uy4y? | Roses are #FF0000; Violets are #0000FF; chown -R ${YOU} ~/base
The DMCA. It really is that bad. : Count for your life.
xzxzzx is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25th July 2006, 20:22   #102
spiderbaby1958
Major Dude
 
spiderbaby1958's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Binghamton, NY
Posts: 789
Quote:
Originally posted by k_rock923
Spiderbaby, I sure hope that wasn't actually you. This thread has gotten way out of control. Haven't we all agreed that while CLI is useful, it's not practical to replace the GUI with it, and vice versa? They coexist. One is better for some things, the other is better for others.
Of course it was me. If you really think that this thread has gotten out of hand, you should be glad that I've taken the discussion elsewhere. (One thing's certain: I've seen lots and lots of threads get out of hand in less interesting or enlightening ways!) You can read what's being said at justlinux, or register and join in, or just forget about it. I'm continuing the discussion, but I'm done with this thread.

http://justlinux.com/forum/showpost....60&postcount=6

Quote:
Originally posted by blackbelt_jones

Actually, I'm not saying that they both have their uses; I'm saying that they are the same thing. For most of us (anyone who runs X) the dividing line between the gui and the cli is a myth. Xterm and Konsole and Gnome-terminal are all, as their names imply, desktop applications. Gnome-terminal is not a seperate entity from the desktop, any more than nautilus or firefox or k3b. The Konsole cli extends out of the desktop-- just as, down below the desktop, there's another CLI. They're not just joined at the hip, but at the heart and lungs as well.
spiderbaby1958 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28th July 2006, 14:10   #103
spiderbaby1958
Major Dude
 
spiderbaby1958's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Binghamton, NY
Posts: 789
OOPS I WAS WRONG!

Quote:
Originally posted by zootm
Nope. This sort of "power sorting" tends to largely only be practiced by more advanced users, and even then it's very rarely conducted in a way that an interactive shell would help.
Other than being God, and looking over the shoulder of every computer user on earth all the time, how could you possibly know that?

Quote:
Originally posted by zootm
Most modern audio players sort media automatically in their interfaces by their metadata these days (and some even sort them into an on-disk arrangement automatically too, which I know a lot of people don't like, but these are largely "advanced users" as well) so that's not something really relevant these days either. I've never sorted my music collection directly, because ripped CDs get put into the correct folders at the time.

I'm yet to think of a non-advanced desktop use for the command line that would not be better filled by better software. Most of the examples given are simply indicative of what I would consider flaws in the existing software.
Being omniscient and all, you have me at a disadvantage here. I don't understand how that can be done, but that doesn't mean it can't be done, and if it can be done, I'm all for it. Let me point out that is hasn't been done-- not for Windows, not for for GNU, Not for mac, not yet. So, getting back to reality...

I've used GUI media players that sort media automatically. They're not as fast, but they're not bad. They have other advantages. The last player I used like that was RealJukebox, which is now obsolete. The honest to god truth is that I never used another GUI player in this way because I found the interface too confusing.

Which brings me to another socratic rhetorical question. It goes without saying that a gui is easioer to learn than the command line, but what about 10 or 30 or 50 guis? Is it really simpler to master a different gui for every application?

Quote:
Originally posted by zootm
No, no, no. I am arguing against users grinning and bearing an inferior experience simply because their software does not perform menial tasks for them. People shouldn't have to bother learning things like this. There's better things they could be learning. If they want to learn, that's great, though, obviously.
Well, I absolutely agree that no one should have to learn this. The CLI's proper place for the majority of users (and I include myself here) is as a desktop power tool.

I absolutely disagree that this is an inferior experience, but I guess you already knew that.

Gotta run. Sorry if I got a little too strident back there. Thanks for introducing me to apropos, it rocks!
spiderbaby1958 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28th July 2006, 14:42   #104
zootm
Forum King
 
zootm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: the nether reaches of bonnie scotland
Posts: 13,375
Re: OOPS I WAS WRONG!

Quote:
Originally posted by spiderbaby1958
Other than being God, and looking over the shoulder of every computer user on earth all the time, how could you possibly know that?
Market research. You can find out about these things in terms of wide trends, you know. This is something that a number of entities with a lot of funding have a strong interest in.

Quote:
Originally posted by spiderbaby1958
Being omniscient and all, you have me at a disadvantage here.
Don't worry, I'm used to it. Ain't easy being God.

Quote:
Originally posted by spiderbaby1958
I don't understand how that can be done, but that doesn't mean it can't be done, and if it can be done, I'm all for it. Let me point out that is hasn't been done-- not for Windows, not for for GNU, Not for mac, not yet. So, getting back to reality...
How what can be done? I'm kinda lost. I can name a good few players which do what I mentioned in my post...

Quote:
Originally posted by spiderbaby1958
Which brings me to another socratic rhetorical question. It goes without saying that a gui is easioer to learn than the command line, but what about 10 or 30 or 50 guis? Is it really simpler to master a different gui for every application?
If they're sufficiently consistent, yes. This is why platforms have Human Interface Guidelines documents to ensure that one doesn't have to relearn any interfaces, as the software just works like everything else on the system.

zootm is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28th July 2006, 18:03   #105
xzxzzx
Forum King
 
xzxzzx's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 7,254
Re: OOPS I WAS WRONG!

Quote:
Originally posted by spiderbaby1958
Other than being God, and looking over the shoulder of every computer user on earth all the time, how could you possibly know that?
He doesn't need to be Me, he knows Me.

Freedom of speech is the basic freedom of humanity. When you've lost that, you've lost everything.
1\/\/4y 34|<$p4y 1gp4y 33714y, 0d4y 0uy4y? | Roses are #FF0000; Violets are #0000FF; chown -R ${YOU} ~/base
The DMCA. It really is that bad. : Count for your life.
xzxzzx is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28th July 2006, 18:31   #106
spiderbaby1958
Major Dude
 
spiderbaby1958's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Binghamton, NY
Posts: 789
Re: Re: OOPS I WAS WRONG!

[QUOTE]Originally posted by zootm
Market research. You can find out about these things in terms of wide trends, you know. This is something that a number of entities with a lot of funding have a strong interest in.

e.g., Microsoft?


If market research could demonstrate that people might use the Linux Command Line if they knew what it was or what it could do, do you suppose Microsfoft would pay for that, in the interest of pure science? I think it's a safe bet that a lot of the market research is interested in propping up the the status quo.

But who cares? Look, you don't need to cite market research (even if you had actually cited it and not just vaguely alluded to it) to prove to me that large number of people don't use or even miss tools whose cabilitites they have never seen, imagined, or heard of. What you can't prove to me, who uses them every day, is that these tools don't have advantages that huge number of users could benefit from hugely, if they knew about the advantages, and wanted them. It runs completely counter to my everyday experience. You might as well give me scientific proof that cats say "moo."

Quote:
Originally posted by zootm
Don't worry, I'm used to it. Ain't easy being God.
Arguing with God is no picnic.

Quote:
Originally posted by zootm
How what can be done?
I don't understand how software or technology can bridge all the necessary gaps needed to make the GUI as powerful as the CLI, because the limitations that I see in the GUI have nothing to do with software or technology. They have to do with language. Do I have to explain this? I don't have time now.


Quote:
Originally posted by zootm
If they're sufficiently consistent, yes. This is why platforms have Human Interface Guidelines documents to ensure that one doesn't have to relearn any interfaces, as the software just works like everything else on the system.
Consistency helps, but I'd think that would tend to freeze development, and hinder flexibility, making form less free to follow function... and I'm not seeing that much consistemncy in the real world anyway. As I've said at least a dozen times, I'm not opposed to GUIs in any way, so we don't need to follow this tangent.





spiderbaby1958 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2nd August 2006, 14:40   #107
spiderbaby1958
Major Dude
 
spiderbaby1958's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Binghamton, NY
Posts: 789
I'm going to try to make my point once and for all, and I'd like to thank Mr. Gates for providing the opportunity.

People think of the GUI and the CLI as competing interfaces, but I think that's spurious assumption that no longer has any relationship to the way that people use the GUI or the CLI. When I use the CLI in Linux, I almost always use it from the desktop. Whatever the internals may be, from my point of view, the point of view of the user, it's really a desktop application, an advanced power tool.

People who ought to know better have been making some pretty weak arguments against the utility of the CLI. Telling me about GUIs that should exist but don't, and that I should have put my files in the right place to begin with are barely arguments at all. When people go to such convoluted and extraordianry lengths to attack the CLI, I have to think it's because they think that someoen wants to take away their desktop, and that just isn't so. Everyone in here who said they love to use the command line said that they also use the graphic interface.

Ideally, no one should ever need it, but for those who want it, BASH may always function as an awesome desktop power tool. The "anticipatory" desktop gui that someone described would only address a fraction of its advantages, in my opinion. But GUIs must, can, should, and will get better all the time. That's not only a good thing, it's inevitable.
spiderbaby1958 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2nd August 2006, 15:03   #108
zootm
Forum King
 
zootm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: the nether reaches of bonnie scotland
Posts: 13,375
Re: Re: Re: OOPS I WAS WRONG!

Quote:
Originally posted by spiderbaby1958
e.g., Microsoft? :rolleyes
Yep. Also Apple, a large part of the usability and cognitive science academic community. There's university courses on these things and all sorts.

Quote:
Originally posted by spiderbaby1958
If market research could demonstrate that people might use the Linux Command Line if they knew what it was or what it could do, do you suppose Microsfoft would pay for that, in the interest of pure science? I think it's a safe bet that a lot of the market research is interested in propping up the the status quo.
The fact that Microsoft are working on a very powerful shell would seem to disprove that.

Quote:
Originally posted by spiderbaby1958
What you can't prove to me, who uses them every day, is that these tools don't have advantages that huge number of users could benefit from hugely, if they knew about the advantages, and wanted them.
I didn't say they didn't have advantages to some users. Hell, they have advantages to me. But there's certainly not universally useful, or useful to a large subsection of people.

Quote:
Originally posted by spiderbaby1958
Arguing with God is no picnic.
Try not believing in yourself.

Quote:
Originally posted by spiderbaby1958
I don't understand how software or technology can bridge all the necessary gaps needed to make the GUI as powerful as the CLI, because the limitations that I see in the GUI have nothing to do with software or technology. They have to do with language. Do I have to explain this? I don't have time now.
The GUI is already as powerful as the CLI. It's just less flexible. Most semi-complex tasks done with the CLI would be better done with a GUI tool provided that they're done commonly enough to warrant one, which covers everything that a normal desktop user would really want to do.

For the record, most things (scripting) that the average user might find useful about the CLI could be done better with a GUI system &mdash; in fact, one exists in the form of Apple's Automator, which presents a fairly intuitive front-end to scripting with easy-to-use components which do not require a command line or so much help with syntax and the like.

Quote:
Originally posted by spiderbaby1958
Consistency helps, but I'd think that would tend to freeze development, and hinder flexibility, making form less free to follow function... and I'm not seeing that much consistemncy in the real world anyway. As I've said at least a dozen times, I'm not opposed to GUIs in any way, so we don't need to follow this tangent.
And I'm not opposed to the CLI in any way, which seems to be a problem with your understanding of my viewpoint.

And so onto (drum roll) the summary:
Quote:
Originally posted by spiderbaby1958
People think of the GUI and the CLI as competing interfaces, but I think that's spurious assumption that no longer has any relationship to the way that people use the GUI or the CLI. When I use the CLI in Linux, I almost always use it from the desktop. Whatever the internals may be, from my point of view, the point of view of the user, it's really a desktop application, an advanced power tool.
Yes, and normal desktop users do not ordinarily use or have use for advanced power tools. My point exactly.

Quote:
Originally posted by spiderbaby1958
People who ought to know better have been making some pretty weak arguments against the utility of the CLI. Telling me about GUIs that should exist but don't, and that I should have put my files in the right place to begin with are barely arguments at all.
You're misrepresenting arguments. We told you that GUIs should exist for anything which is ordinarily useful to normal users on the desktop. They do. We told you that your files are put into the right place in the first place, or can be put into the right place automatically with semi-competent software.

Quote:
Originally posted by spiderbaby1958
Ideally, no one should ever need it, but for those who want it, BASH may always function as an awesome desktop power tool.
Which is basically what I've been saying. It's useful for strange corner-case tasks and the like.

zootm is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2nd August 2006, 16:15   #109
Phyltre
Forum King
 
Phyltre's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Freefall
Posts: 2,751
Send a message via AIM to Phyltre Send a message via Yahoo to Phyltre
What we have here is a failure* to communicate*.


*Where "communicate" means laborious quoting and counterquoting people's statements OVER and OVER again, generating monolothic posts beyond the ken of man.

*Also, where "failure to" is read as "total, zealous adoption of"
Phyltre is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2nd August 2006, 16:44   #110
shakey_snake
Forum Domo
 
shakey_snake's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Everyone, get over here for the picture!
Posts: 4,313
yeah, everyone's pretty much saying the same things.


elevatorladyelevatorladyelevatorladyelevatorladyelevatorladylevitateme
shakey_snake is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2nd August 2006, 17:33   #111
spiderbaby1958
Major Dude
 
spiderbaby1958's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Binghamton, NY
Posts: 789
Quote:
Originally posted by shakey_snake
yeah, everyone's pretty much saying the same things.
Not so.

Last edited by spiderbaby1958; 2nd August 2006 at 18:02.
spiderbaby1958 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2nd August 2006, 17:44   #112
zootm
Forum King
 
zootm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: the nether reaches of bonnie scotland
Posts: 13,375
Yeah, I was thinking that. I kept being given comebacks which I essentially agreed with. It's weird.

zootm is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2nd August 2006, 17:51   #113
spiderbaby1958
Major Dude
 
spiderbaby1958's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Binghamton, NY
Posts: 789
Quote:
Originally posted by zootm
I'm interested to know where you thought that I was disagreeing with you on any point other than that the CLI is a useful thing for most desktop users to bother to learn.
There it is. A real material disagreement. I do believe that most desktop users could benefit, and would probably benefit in spades over a lifetime of computing. (Learn it over three months, know it forever.) That's a big difference in beliefs. We're not just saying the same thing.

Perhaps ironically, the best chance the CLI has for being recognized as a power tool is continued desktop development. People may comprehend the CLI as a tool after it ceases to be an obstacle.

This has been a great thread for me. It's really changed and clarified my thinking about this. I think I'm done... but I've thought that before.

Last edited by spiderbaby1958; 2nd August 2006 at 18:15.
spiderbaby1958 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2nd August 2006, 19:03   #114
zootm
Forum King
 
zootm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: the nether reaches of bonnie scotland
Posts: 13,375
Quote:
Originally posted by spiderbaby1958
I do believe that most desktop users could benefit, and would probably benefit in spades over a lifetime of computing.
That's all I disagree on. I don't think a desktop user with no interest in computers in general would get a real benefit. It's a minor point at best.

zootm is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2nd August 2006, 20:37   #115
spiderbaby1958
Major Dude
 
spiderbaby1958's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Binghamton, NY
Posts: 789
Quote:
Originally posted by zootm
That's all I disagree on. I don't think a desktop user with no interest in computers in general would get a real benefit. It's a minor point at best.
What?

What the hell do you mean, a minor point? It's the ONLY point! What else have we been discussing? If you think it's a minor point, then we're miles and miles and miles apart.

I'm doing ordinary desktop stuff, and saving hours and hours of the most repetative and annoying tasks, stuff that I really really used to hate, and creating elementary scripts that are allowing me to automate long sequences of commands using nothing more technical than the semicolon.

This is power, a lot of power for a relatively small investment of time. It's an important or trivial as individual power for the individual user. If you don't think an ordinary user will have opportunity to use it, I sure don't see why not. For me it's almost all about cutting through really really dull file management crap: moving, deleting, copying, sorting... are you saying that most users don't have to do this stuff all the time?

Well maybe not. I suppose that I don't really know what most people spend time doing on their computers, and neither do you. I do know that this is a powerful option, and having the option makes the user a lot more powerful than not having the option. But, at least from the desktop, it's always going to be for the user who wants it, not for the user who needs it.

Last edited by spiderbaby1958; 2nd August 2006 at 21:01.
spiderbaby1958 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2nd August 2006, 21:58   #116
zootm
Forum King
 
zootm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: the nether reaches of bonnie scotland
Posts: 13,375
Quote:
Originally posted by spiderbaby1958
What the hell do you mean, a minor point? It's the ONLY point! What else have we been discussing?
Exactly. I just mean it's a minor point in the grand scheme of things.

Quote:
Originally posted by spiderbaby1958
I'm doing ordinary desktop stuff, and saving hours and hours of the most repetative and annoying tasks, stuff that I really really used to hate, and creating elementary scripts that are allowing me to automate long sequences of commands using nothing more technical than the semicolon.
And yet I can program in quite a few programming languages and don't see a use for shell scripting in my normal desktop usage.

Quote:
Originally posted by spiderbaby1958
This is power, a lot of power for a relatively small investment of time. It's an important or trivial as individual power for the individual user. If you don't think an ordinary user will have opportunity to use it, I sure don't see why not. For me it's almost all about cutting through really really dull file management crap: moving, deleting, copying, sorting... are you saying that most users don't have to do this stuff all the time?
That's exactly what I'm saying. For most tasks it's just plain easier to use the GUI tools. The last actual desktop use I recall having for the command line was changing the file extension of about 200 files at once, and even then it's not something that most users would ever even need to bother about.

Quote:
Originally posted by spiderbaby1958
Well maybe not. I suppose that I don't really know what most people spend time doing on their computers, and neither do you. I do know that this is a powerful option, and having the option makes the user a lot more powerful than not having the option. But, at least from the desktop, it's always going to be for the user who wants it, not for the user who needs it.
Certainly. It's there for both. I just contend that most users don't need or want it enough to warrant learning something they don't feel like learning.

zootm is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 3rd August 2006, 00:00   #117
Omega X
Forum King
 
Omega X's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: A Parallel Dimension
Posts: 2,252
Send a message via AIM to Omega X Send a message via Yahoo to Omega X
I'm sad to say, that I agree with zootm.(why should I be sad?)

Point 1 - The General End User won't EVER touch the commandline. It is wishful thinking to say that the commandline is required computing use for the general user.

Point 2 - There is an advantage in using a well built GUI, other than complete and utter ease of use.(being lazy?)

I see that zootm is saying that there are instances where the commandline can be useful(I.e. save time). But from a general user standpoint, "its the black box that shows up when I install some software".

I mean, things have come to a point where learning shell scripting is not crucial or necessary for general usage. Some Linux peeps won't ever admit to that, and its part of the reason why Linux hasn't taken off in the eyes of general users. People LIKE ease of use. People don't want to learn lines of commands to do things.

When linux distro and desktop GUI makers can completely mask the underlying foundation completely and make it as easy to use or as robust as Windows(not counting security flaws), only then will Linux be a real option to those users. (that was probably a bit off the subject)
Omega X is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 3rd August 2006, 00:10   #118
k_rock923
\m/
(Forum King)
 
k_rock923's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: /bin/bash
Posts: 7,850
Send a message via AIM to k_rock923
My feeling is that once you take the time to learn a cli, it actually is easier than any gui. Granted, you have to want to learn it first and I realize that most people won't/

Never underestimate the bandwidth of a station wagon full of tapes hurtling down the highway.
k_rock923 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 3rd August 2006, 01:48   #119
swingdjted
DRINK BEER NOW
(Forum King)
 
swingdjted's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Northern West Virginia
Posts: 9,990
Send a message via AIM to swingdjted Send a message via Yahoo to swingdjted
Like me...

Every person I know that uses a computer (which, granted, amounts to only less than 50 people or so), doesn't move files almost at all once they're initially saved/created. They/I save something somewhere and leave it there... forever... or until delete.

In the music example, I just tell the 'ripper' where to put the files before the music is even ripped. The software creates the folders and places the files in them. Even if I did not do that, I could just use the winamp library search to find the song I want by typing one or two words from the title, or album, or artist, etc. and it's instantly accessible.

For photos, the camera software automatically creates the folders/subfolders (My pics folder, Year subfolder, month subfolder) for me and all the files go to the right place immediately upon plugging in the camera USB cord - I don't even have to click anything, let alone type something.

I didn't have to spend 3 months learning any of this, I just saw it and used it.

I see myself as the "average Joe" computer user, and because of this I wouldn't spend hours on the computer doing anything. I turn the computer on, spend a few minutes using its functions, and turn it off. The only time I use it for hours is if I'm just watching a movie, listening to music, typing a case note, editing a photo/video/song, etc. in which case, nothing in terms of the way I do something could really save me much time. Plus, the average computer user sees the command line as bland jumbled lines of characters, and even if he/she understood it, it would still be rather unattractive and would likely reduce one’s enjoyment of computer use.

For those who like the command line and have uses for it, that's great, I'm glad it saves you time, and since time is often money, it'll probably save you money too. For some of you, the command line is pretty much indispensable, and I understand that. As an "average computer user", I just don't think it'll ever save me time, nor will it increase my enjoyment of computer use.

Sorry to argue so much, I just wanted you to see it from an average user's perspective.

Don't forget to live before you die.
swingdjted is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 3rd August 2006, 04:05   #120
shakey_snake
Forum Domo
 
shakey_snake's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Everyone, get over here for the picture!
Posts: 4,313
on a side note...
Quote:
Originally posted by swingdjted
For photos, the camera software automatically creates the folders/subfolders (My pics folder, Year subfolder, month subfolder) for me and all the files go to the right place immediately upon plugging in the camera USB cord - I don't even have to click anything, let alone type something.
...You might be interested to know that windows XP has the same thing built into it, without needing crappy camera software installed.


elevatorladyelevatorladyelevatorladyelevatorladyelevatorladylevitateme
shakey_snake is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply
Go Back   Winamp & Shoutcast Forums > Community Center > Breaking News

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump