Old 3rd August 2006, 04:16   #121
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following the side note...

So far I don't mind the camera's software that does what I mentioned, but it used to launch a "zoombrowser" which was a real pain in the ass - it would load all of the computer's pics in one window and serve no function other than showing what explorer already shows in a better way.

I was able to uninstall that while keeping the software that organizes the pics, which so far has been good.

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Old 3rd August 2006, 20:40   #122
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Originally posted by swingdjted
Like me...

Every person I know that uses a computer (which, granted, amounts to only less than 50 people or so), doesn't move files almost at all once they're initially saved/created. They/I save something somewhere and leave it there... forever... or until delete.
You know, I have to ask: Do you really know that your friends don't move their files around? I have no idea whether my friends move their files around. But it wouldn't surprise me if they didn't, because moving your files around with the gui is a pain in the ass.

K rock said it pretty good... the CLI is easier to use, although it's not the best thing for every situation. What I love, more than anything else is always having the choice. I'm all for anything that makes the cli optional, but as an option I don't think anything can replace it, because of the limitations built into the language. In advertising, a picture is supposed to be worth a thousand words, but in language, 26 characters can be made to say more than any hundred thousand pictures. No amount of technology is going to change that.

I totally get that "the average user" doesn't want to learn the cli, and I'm fine with that; fuck him. That doesn't really have anything to do with whether or not the cli applies to average uses, and it shouldn't stop anyone from asking what can be done to place this power within reach of that user of average ability and unusual curiosity, the one who wants it. At the moment, better documentation and education seems easier and more plausible than writing magic software that will read our minds, and perhaps it will for a long time to come.

I think that what we're discussing is the difference between an "average user" and the "power user". No one should have to be a power user, but as one who has made the leap, I found it sort of... empowering... and I certainly don't think anyone should be discouraged from making the effort.

I do believe that zootm is in the minority. Most people I know who don't consider the Linux cli useful are people who don't know how to use it. I just don't know what's up with that.
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Old 3rd August 2006, 20:52   #123
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Originally posted by spiderbaby1958
I do believe that zootm is in the minority. Most people I know who don't consider the Linux cli useful are people who don't know how to use it. I just don't know what's up with that.
I'm a software developer, so yes, I'm definately in the minority. The problem is that most people who don't consider the *nix CLI useful not only don't know how to use it, they don't have any incentive to learn it. Because it just wouldn't be worth their time.

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Old 3rd August 2006, 22:05   #124
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Originally posted by ElChevelle
By the way, Gates haters need to STFU seeing as how he's donate more money to charity than all of us will ever earn combined.
You do know that the breakdown of what Gates makes compared to what he gives to charity (all tax cuts aside) is about the same as someone like you or I giving $5....
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Old 4th August 2006, 02:20   #125
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...plus it can be viewed as little more than a celebration of a tax write off...

...but who cares?

a donation of any size or percentage is still a donation.

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Old 4th August 2006, 18:47   #126
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Originally posted by zootm
I'm a software developer, so yes, I'm definately in the minority. The problem is that most people who don't consider the *nix CLI useful not only don't know how to use it, they don't have any incentive to learn it. Because it just wouldn't be worth their time.
So we do disagree, and pretty significantly. I hope that we can agree on that.

Or maybe not... I mean, I don't really know what "most" people do, and I don't really care. I only care about people being aware of the benefits, and having the best possible access to the knowledge.

And I am more troubled by the prospect of ignorance then by the prospect of unnecessary knowledge. How many people go through life having real regrets about learning something, even if it was something they didn't use very much?

Ah well. Whatever.
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Old 4th August 2006, 18:55   #127
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Originally posted by spiderbaby1958
So we do disagree, and pretty significantly. I hope that we can agree on that.
Aye.

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Originally posted by spiderbaby1958
I mean, I don't really know what "most" people do, and I don't really care. I only care about people being aware of the benefits, and having the best possible access to the knowledge.
The thing about the command line is that most people who'd benefit are both motivated to learn and aware of its existence. It really doesn't need any advocacy.

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Originally posted by spiderbaby1958
And I am more troubled by the prospect of ignorance then by the prospect of unnecessary knowledge. How many people go through life having real regrets about learning something, even if it was something they didn't use very much?
That's not really my point. I'm not trying to advocate ignorance.

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Old 5th August 2006, 02:19   #128
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No kidding. If you were trying, you might at least manage a decent argument. I've given you a lot of specific examples. I worked hard to give you specifics, and you've countered with generalizations and assumptions, and vague allusions to market research that, if it exists, wouldn't prove anything.

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The problem is that most people who don't consider the *nix CLI useful not only don't know how to use it, they don't have any incentive to learn it. Because it just wouldn't be worth their time.
Sorry but "learning a skill is not worth your time" is the definition for advocating ignornace.

You don't think you're advocating ignorance? Hell, you're an evangelist for ignorance, an ignorance salesman. You're not a very good one, but that's okay, Ignorance is one product that sells itself.

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The thing about the command line is that most people who'd benefit are both motivated to learn and aware of its existence. It really doesn't need any advocacy.
Well, you've pretty much convinced me otherwise. You're just transmitting assumptions that you don't bother to question. They may be true, but I don't believe you.

I was a very ordinary user, and I picked up the command line because I wanted to put my porno time to some sort of positive use, and it changed everything for me. My computer use was streamlined, empowererd, and it becamse a lot more fun. Would it do the same for someone else? The honest truth is I don't know, but it's pretty obvious that you don't either. You don't know what somebody else is going to find useful, and yet you pronounce.

Not only are not thinking out of the box; it's a rather small box.
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Old 5th August 2006, 03:47   #129
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I dunno, you think I'm getting a little carried away? Somebody stop me before I post again!
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Old 5th August 2006, 07:51   #130
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Originally posted by spiderbaby1958
Sorry but "learning a skill is not worth your time" is the definition for advocating ignornace.
Nonsense - specialisation is not ignorance. These people would be better off spending their time learning other skills (even other computer skills). Are you ignorant because you chose not to learn Cherokee? If I told you that most people would get more benefit learning French than Cherokee, would that be advocating ignorance?

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Originally posted by spiderbaby1958
You don't think you're advocating ignorance? Hell, you're an evangelist for ignorance, an ignorance salesman. You're not a very good one, but that's okay, Ignorance is one product that sells itself.
I really don't think you're getting my point at all.

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Originally posted by spiderbaby1958
Well, you've pretty much convinced me otherwise. You're just transmitting assumptions that you don't bother to question. They may be true, but I don't believe you.
I have books on usability and so on, they're not really assumptions, and in particular they're not assumptions I've made.

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Originally posted by spiderbaby1958
I was a very ordinary user, and I picked up the command line because I wanted to put my porno time to some sort of positive use, and it changed everything for me. My computer use was streamlined, empowererd, and it becamse a lot more fun.
I dunno. I feel that your evangelism on this subject is just too strong. I'm not trying to encourage people not to learn, I'm just saying that if they don't want to, there's almost definately no reason to make themselves do it. I just don't see that as ignorance.

You were motivated enough to find out about the CLI, and learn it yourself. That, in itself, qualifies you as one of the people I mentioned.

Quote:
Originally posted by spiderbaby1958
Would it do the same for someone else? The honest truth is I don't know, but it's pretty obvious that you don't either. You don't know what somebody else is going to find useful, and yet you pronounce.
My point is above (I hope, this time), and that's not it.

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Originally posted by spiderbaby1958
Not only are not thinking out of the box; it's a rather small box.
I'm always thinking out of the box

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Old 5th August 2006, 15:12   #131
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Just so you don't think I'm one of those mutant macho ubergeeks who thinks that all guis are for losers, and refuses to install X, I just started using Gmail, and I think that's a great example of the difference a well-designed graphic interface can make.

It's a little bit complicated to learn, and I'm not inclined to give a tutorial. Basically, the interface automatically combines sent mail and receieved mail to and from a particualr address in the inbox. This and other advantages ought to make cleaning out my inbox a snap.

I've always felt that a better interface was needed more than better spam filters, and I think Gmail has really made email a lot smarter... and it's all in the interface.

Quote:
Originally posted by zootm
Nonsense - specialisation is not ignorance. These people would be better off spending their time learning other skills (even other computer skills). Are you ignorant because you chose not to learn Cherokee? If I told you that most people would get more benefit learning French than Cherokee, would that be advocating ignorance?


I really don't think you're getting my point at all.


I have books on usability and so on, they're not really assumptions, and in particular they're not assumptions I've made.


I dunno. I feel that your evangelism on this subject is just too strong. I'm not trying to encourage people not to learn, I'm just saying that if they don't want to, there's almost definately no reason to make themselves do it. I just don't see that as ignorance.

You were motivated enough to find out about the CLI, and learn it yourself. That, in itself, qualifies you as one of the people I mentioned.


My point is above (I hope, this time), and that's not it.


I'm always thinking out of the box
I shouldn't presume to judge whether you're thinking in or out of the box. I just don't get it.

I like to think we're winding down here, so please don't start now, but If you have books, you should quote them, cite them, use them as evidence. Then your argument will have argument.

By definition, not knowing Cherokee is a kind of ignorance. I'm not interested in learning Cherokee, certainly wouldn't expect someone else to learn Cherokee, but to suggest to someone that learning Cherokee is not worth their time just seems kind of wrong to me. You just don't know what someone will do with that power.

As I said before, I learned the command line by applying it to moving around porno files, If I haven't taken the time, I probably wouldn't have learned something else, I just might have downloaded a little more porn.

How did you learn the BASH cli, if I may ask? Maybe you associate more effort with this than I do. I wonder if I was lucky enough to stumble into an easier way of the learning this particular skill. It just wasn't that much trouble for me. It can't be that I'm smarter, because every other aspect of Linux drove me nuts. Package managment was a nightmare. Permissions took me around the bend.

I also had ways of "cheating" in the beginning. I discovered that could recreate the path to a file by clicking to the file with Konqueror and copying the path out of the browseer window. I didn't understand relative paths, so for a brief while, I simply used absolute paths for everything. It was like training wheels. They slow you down at first, but they help get you moving.

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Old 6th August 2006, 00:28   #132
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Originally posted by spiderbaby1958
Just so you don't think I'm one of those mutant macho ubergeeks who thinks that all guis are for losers, and refuses to install X, I just started using Gmail, and I think that's a great example of the difference a well-designed graphic interface can make.
For the record, I don't think that. I just think that you're an enthusiast providing an enthusiast's view, and I'm trying my darndest to provide an academic view (although as well as an academic, I'm an enthusiast too).

Quote:
Originally posted by spiderbaby1958
It's a little bit complicated to learn, and I'm not inclined to give a tutorial. Basically, the interface automatically combines sent mail and receieved mail to and from a particualr address in the inbox. This and other advantages ought to make cleaning out my inbox a snap.
GMail is bad-ass. It's intuitive and semantically stronger than most systems. I love it.

Quote:
Originally posted by spiderbaby1958
I like to think we're winding down here, so please don't start now, but If you have books, you should quote them, cite them, use them as evidence. Then your argument will have argument.
I don't mean this in an offensive sense, but I don't have the time. It would mean teaching you a lot of usability theory and I just don't have the time or inclination. I know you're the type who likes to learn (from this thread, in fact), so if you do want to learn on the subject, I'd definately recommend this book. It links into psychology and stuff a lot, and is very easy to read.

Quote:
Originally posted by spiderbaby1958
By definition, not knowing Cherokee is a kind of ignorance. I'm not interested in learning Cherokee, certainly wouldn't expect someone else to learn Cherokee, but to suggest to someone that learning Cherokee is not worth their time just seems kind of wrong to me. You just don't know what someone will do with that power.
I'm not advocating people don't learn the command line. I'm just saying it's probably not what they want to do if they don't have an interest in it.

I usually get upset at anecdotal evidence, but this largely stems from me trying to teach complex stuff like the command line to people who didn't want to learn it, and realising the benefits of motivation.

Quote:
Originally posted by spiderbaby1958
How did you learn the BASH cli, if I may ask? Maybe you associate more effort with this than I do.
I probably associate less. I learned it because the computers at uni used Linux and I wanted to know more. At that point I already knew 5-6 programming languages, so one more was quite easy to take on board. I have the kind of mind that accepts programming languages fairly readily, so it's not so bad.

I associate the pain with where I've tried to teach people bash and its like in the past.

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Old 9th August 2006, 03:51   #133
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Sorry but "learning a skill is not worth your time" is the definition for advocating ignornace.
Learning THAT PARTICULAR SKILL honestly is not worth my time.

As a professional in education, I advocate learning as much as anyone here or more, personally holding three bachelor degrees and a masters degree.

Learning is extremely important to me, but choosing what material to learn with the time I have is just as important. I have to decide very carefully what will most benefit my students, my community, and my career when choosing my course of study.

Although there would be benefits to learning one particular skill, I have to weigh those benefits against something that may be more appropriate for what I am ultimately trying to accomplish.

Learning how to fix a $39 DVD player might be good skill to learn, but the learning time plus the on-task time fixing it would cost me valuable time I could be spending doing something more fun or important like being with my family or at work or learning something that more fits my personal goals.

For some people, a personal goal could be learning the command line - maybe for work, maybe for hobby/personal use, both of which I feel are very appropriate. It's just not something I choose to learn for myself because it does not help me enough to make it worth it.

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Old 12th August 2006, 00:39   #134
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Originally posted by swingdjted
Learning THAT PARTICULAR SKILL honestly is not worth my time.

Maybe not. I certainly wouldn't presume to say otherwise, and never have... but the difference between "it's not worth my time", and "it's not worth your time (or "the average person's time") is vast. One is making a personal choice. The other, make no mistake about it, is advocating ignorance. To insist otherwise is not to argue with me; it's to argue against the dictionary definition of ignorance.

(Again, I'm talking about Linux. If you're running Windows, for all I know, learning the command line isn't worth your time... or anyone's. WHatever the Winodws command line can or cannot do, I just don't think that the applications are there. The software doesn't exist... as far as I know.)

When it comes to Linux, I have to insist again that it's not that hard. It took me about three months to master all the nuances, wildcards, and built-in time saving features that have taken me this far, ... but in order to use the command line well enough to cut through a lot of crap... Well, I know for certain that I've spent more time posting in this thread than it took for me to pick that much up, and I'm pretty sure that a couple of people in here have put the same amount of time and effort into arguing with me.

It's a shorthand english sentence, with the preposition implied instead of stated; that's all it is.
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Old 12th August 2006, 02:15   #135
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It amazes me how little you're willing to listen anything anyone has to say around here.
I don't know why you even bother to come around.


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Old 12th August 2006, 04:37   #136
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Originally posted by shakey_snake

I don't know why you even bother to come around.
Actually, that's just the beginning of what you don't know.
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Old 12th August 2006, 06:34   #137
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I know that you're now on my ignore list.


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Old 12th August 2006, 10:23   #138
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I think that's best.
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Old 14th August 2006, 17:17   #139
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Actually, that's just the beginning of what you don't know.
You know, that's a rather poor insult. There are, for any human, vast sums of information which that person does not know. To imply that that exists is an insult on the order of "You're not God!"

Here's what a better insult looks like:

spiderbaby1958, you're an idiot!

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Old 21st August 2006, 18:23   #140
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Originally posted by xzxzzx
You know, that's a rather poor insult. There are, for any human, vast sums of information which that person does not know. To imply that that exists is an insult on the order of "You're not God!"

Here's what a better insult looks like:

spiderbaby1958, you're an idiot!
Sort of bland and generic, don't you think?

And just why am I an idiot? Do you have an arguement for that? At this point I would welcome any sort of cogent argument, even if it proves me stupid.

Shakeysnake, who I'm happy to say isn't going to read this, said I wasn't listening because he couldn't figure out the difference between listening, and being convinced. Whether I respond to anyone else's argument doesn't matter. If I hold to my convictions, I must not be willing to listen to anyone else, right? After all, I'm outnumbered, so I must be wrong, That's just common sense.

I don't consider my response to shakey an insult so much as a dismissal, and a general summing up. Why should I give myself carpal tunnel listing everything, from princples of debate to software, on which shakey seems to be clueless? "Not God"? He is SO not God, it's not even funny.
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Old 21st August 2006, 20:55   #141
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It took you a week to think of a comeback?

Never underestimate the bandwidth of a station wagon full of tapes hurtling down the highway.
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Old 21st August 2006, 21:22   #142
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Holy shit, this thread is still alive!

By the way, I have the last word now, so stick that in your pipe and smoke it.

Don't forget to live before you die.
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Old 21st August 2006, 23:45   #143
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Originally posted by spiderbaby1958
And just why am I an idiot? Do you have an arguement for that? At this point I would welcome any sort of cogent argument, even if it proves me stupid.
I think you missed a point there. He didn't say it was a good insult, just that it was better.

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Old 23rd August 2006, 14:02   #144
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Originally posted by
swingdjted

Holy shit, this thread is still alive!
Holy shit, indeed.

Quote:
Originally posted by zootm
I think you missed a point there. He didn't say it was a good insult, just that it was better.
Why did you quote a part of my post that has nothing to do with that?
Quote:
Originally posted by spiderbaby1958
Sort of bland and generic, don't you think?
Would have been more appropriate.

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Originally posted by k_rock923
It took you a week to think of a comeback?
Well... uh... hmm.
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Old 23rd August 2006, 14:13   #145
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Originally posted by spiderbaby1958
Why did you quote a part of my post that has nothing to do with that?
I quoted a part of your post which was attempting to criticise something which was clearly, and deliberately poorly-founded. His point was that even an insult as stupid as that was better than your one. Your attempting justification for it just cemented the fact that it was a stupid insult, which was his point.

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Old 25th August 2006, 14:46   #146
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Well, I think that's bullshit.

Even though I maintain that my original intent was more to dismiss than to insult, it seems to me that, as an insult, his insult is only better than mine when deconstructed and examined by the dullest, most literal-minded criteria. Can't the idea, (whether true or not I have no idea), that shakeysnake knows less than most people be implied? Does it have to be proven? After all, we're talking about an insult and not a term paper, and furthermore...

In terms of literal truth, my insult is clearly superior, since it's obvious that shakeysnake, not being God, is ignorant of a whole multitude of things, whereas I have had my IQ measured twice, and both times it was well over 75 points. Therefore, I am not an idiot.
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Old 25th August 2006, 15:31   #147
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This is a completely ridiculous argument, seriously.

I didn't know that 75 was the cutoff for "idiot" on the IQ scale. Interesting.

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Old 25th August 2006, 17:36   #148
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Not that one would use "idiot" to describe someone who doesn't do well on an extremely limited test, but 70 is two standard deviations (15 each) from the mean (of a hundred) in an IQ test, and therefore the cutoff for a child's eligibility for special education services at public schools. 75 is still considered a relatively normal score.

This has very little to do with someone's knowledge though. One's IQ is not the measure of knowledge, but one's ability to take it in, in a given period of time. There are many people who have low IQs that have learned far more than those with extremely high IQs. These people learn slowly, but their capacity of mental storage can still be enormous.

@ spider...

Saying someone isn't god is like saying a cooler of ice water in an arid desert isn't an ocean. You're comparing two items of rather different measures of value e.g. apples to oranges. It is clearly an inferior insult, if even an insult at all.

Calling someone an 'idiot' is nothing but an insult, and while not the best of insults, it at least is a direct attack whereas calling someone 'not God' is more or less saying to them they're not a calculator.

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Old 25th August 2006, 20:27   #149
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Quote:
Originally posted by zootm
This is a completely ridiculous argument, seriously.

I didn't know that 75 was the cutoff for "idiot" on the IQ scale. Interesting.
Actually, here at Winamp.com, we grade on a curve, so 50 points is an idiot, and 105 is considered a genius.

Yes, it is a ridiculous argument, and I'm assuming that anyone who is participating at this point is either

a)doing it for the sake of ridiculousness itself... or

b) an idiot.

Whichever category you fall in, have a nice weekend!
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Old 25th August 2006, 21:01   #150
swingdjted
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We should merge this with the 'get the last word' thread in the bin.

Don't forget to live before you die.
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Old 25th August 2006, 22:24   #151
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Quote:
Originally posted by swingdjted
We should merge this with the 'get the last word' thread in the bin.
you could do that with just about any thread spiderbaby has posted in.


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Old 26th August 2006, 06:38   #152
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I really mean it, by the way,... Have a great weekend.
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Old 26th August 2006, 07:03   #153
zootm
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Quote:
Originally posted by spiderbaby1958
Actually, here at Winamp.com, we grade on a curve, so 50 points is an idiot, and 105 is considered a genius.

Yes, it is a ridiculous argument, and I'm assuming that anyone who is participating at this point is either

a)doing it for the sake of ridiculousness itself... or

b) an idiot.

Whichever category you fall in, have a nice weekend!
I just felt you missed the point. Which is category (c).

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Old 26th August 2006, 14:04   #154
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Actually, it's not so much that I need to get the last word, but I just can't let this dear old thread die. I't been like an annoying brother to me.
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