Old 18th November 2012, 08:47   #41
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You do know. You are my brother Sir. Ask and you shall receive. Knock and it will be open to you. No harm would ever come to you if I could help it.

Like the Quakers, I built my house by the side of the road and am a friend to man. Just don't ask me to buy liberal bullshit. I know too many human crash test dummies that bought it.
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Old 18th November 2012, 15:12   #42
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You do know. You are my brother Sir. Ask and you shall receive. Knock and it will be open to you. No harm would ever come to you if I could help it.

Like the Quakers, I built my house by the side of the road and am a friend to man. Just don't ask me to buy liberal bullshit. I know too many human crash test dummies that bought it.
I'm beginning to understand your point of view and maybe why you have it. But I still disagree.

You have shared some things and I can understand the pain and somewhat where you're coming from. Let me share some too.

I'm a Black American, born in 1951 in Baltimore MD, so spent my teenage years in the 60ties and started looking for my first real job in the mid 70ties after college. Now living with my second legal wife (had our 3rd anniversary in October). She has an adult son who has done time for dealing drugs. He has been keeping it clean since he got out, but finds it hard to get and keep a job with his record and the current economy. His current job does not pay enough for him to maintain his own place, so he has been staying with us for the pass 2 months.

I had a daughter with my first legal wife (marriage lasted 6 years) and after the divorce, raised another daughter with my common law wife (she died in 2000 after we had 15 years together). I maintained an active relationship with my biological daughter until her early teens and reconnected with her in her late twenties. Meet my common law daughter when she was 9, lost contact with her 3 years ago. I provided major financial support while they were growing up and helped with college expenses. One now lives in New York and the other in California.

I lived with both my parents until I left for school at 18. From a kid to 13 or 14, my mom took me to her Baptist church every Sunday she was able and when she wasn't, she sent me to a Catholic church a few blocks from where we lived. Believe me, I was given a strong foundation as to moral right and wrong, respect for elders, respect for the law, and respect for community values.

My parents were very poor and very proud. They refused to go on welfare or accept any other public or charity assistance. What they and my extended family could not provide, I (and my sister and brother) went without. Very few material things, but you really don't miss what you never have. I went through a brief period of trying to steal what I thought I should have (Dad half killed me a couple of times and I got the message). I spent a few weeks every summer with in-laws in the South. Some of them lived in shacks with no hot or cold running water and no bathroom. I loved it, made pretend I was camping out. I had a very happy childhood and I knew I was loved.

I've lived through a ton of moral, economic, and political challenges and continue to do so. Some due to race, some due to class, and some just from life in general. I have some far left views and some far right views. I know what is right and wrong for me and that's all. As much as I would like to, I can't impose my standards on anyone else.

I taught and explained my points of view to my girls the best I could, but the bottom line is I could not and can not control what they accepted or rejected. Like the old saying, you can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink. Sure I could make them do what I said while they were living with me, but what is important is what they did (and do) while they are not.

They taught me the value of being consistent and tolerant. It was (is) important that my actions matched my words and it was ok to bend a little and let them learn from their own mistakes. I've been blessed that they never made any real serious ones. Those that are so hard to recover from. None that I've heard about anyway. I miss and worry about the one that decided she does not need me anymore.

A person makes choices and sacrifices, that little voice inside (moral code) tells you if they're right or wrong. But you can't expect anyone else to see it the same way. I've had things I've done for all the right reasons thrown back in my face. Bottom line, the people throwing were right, I didn't have to do it. Was it really for them, for me, for both of us? Sometimes I find it hard to answer that question.

Now, I know its best for me and all concerned, to let go and let God and just try to do what is right for me. Support others when I think its right and give them some space when I don't.

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Old 19th November 2012, 21:05   #43
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I'm not talking about imposing anything on anyone. You're the one talking about imposing things on people. I'm not against helping people. Richard Pryor was talking about Africans one time. He said something like "these people don't need food, they need a bus ticket... it's a desert... that's why they call it a desert ... nothing grows here..."

That's the way I feel about liberals and the poor. They'll feed you in a desert. You won't be getting a bus ticket. You can be nicely, neatly crated and fed government cheese in one of our state sponsored slums and we've got a nice big jail to stick you in if you get pissed about it.

Michelle Obama is a perfect example. She got $300K a year to stir the pot in Chicago. I'm in favor of reorganizing some wealth! 300 grand is a fuck load of toaster strudel. Obama's got a couple million from his book:

Dreams of "Whose my daddy?" A guy I met once and didn't know at all and he didn't want anything to do with me...

I was kicking on the beach in Hawaii smoking a doob, drinking a Bud Light, reading Bill Ayers, feeling sorry for myself..... and trying to figure out how to justify it... About all I could really come up with is that my grandmother called gang members by a racial epithet a couple times and my liberal mom had too much of a fascination with men of color. My dad was a drunk and amputated his legs crashing his car and didn't want anything to do with me, but it really wasn't his fault. It was..... apartheid or some fucking thing.... it must have been Mitt Romney!!

To get your job handing out sandwiches, of course you will need to pay your liberal college to make more liberals. You'll know how to help a bum decide whether he want's peas or carrots with his lunch. That takes a masters degree. You can't just hand someone a sandwich, you need to be politically correct about it.

You'll need that Tesla powered by a windmill with a battery shoved up your ass to go to "work". You'll justify a $50,000 electric bill by saying it's "green energy" like Al Gore You'll need a blowjob from schoolgirls like Bill Clinton. You'll need to take a private jet to Scandinavia at taxpayer expense to watch ice melt like Nancy Pelosi. You'll hand out $100BN like Barack Obama to "green" companies that didn't make a single job. You'll give a trillion to the banks and not squeak when they give themselves multi-million dollar bonuses.

All perfectly acceptable under liberal rules of conduct. You can even be Reverend Al, who has a $750,000 judgment for accusing innocent men of rape. Al put all his money in his wife's name and acts like accusing innocent men of rape is justified because they are white. You could be some of the African Americans who admit they think OJ was probably guilty but were happy he got off for killing is white wife? Drug dealer Rodney King, who led the police on a high speed pursuit is a civil rights hero? In my neighborhood, if you run from the cops you get your ass kicked. I'd expect to get my ass pounded. You've got this Zimmerman-Martin thing going on. That took a special task force to come up with the politically correct interpretation of those events. There is this mythical problem where white men (or half white) run around killing young black men for the hell of it. Usually we get shot by people we know and of our own race. 90+ percent of the time. And innocents almost never get killed.

But what do I know? I'm Archie Bunker.. if it rains, it's my fault...

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Old 20th November 2012, 00:41   #44
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What are you proposing or are you content with Republican politicians doing everything for you? Don't you write your Congress people? I write mine. I've got nothing to lose by doing so. So far you're mainly bashing people and bemoaning how you've played the cards life has dealt you.

Ok, I've already said some of the far left views are stupid and dangerous. Same thing for some of those on the far right. And yeah, I selfishly think my personal standards would make for a better America, if not a better world. I find it hard to believe that you were willing to put your trust in 'Say Anything to get Elected' Romney. I never heard him say anything meaningful about tort reform or any of the few other useful things you have mentioned. But I don't watch Fox news, so I could have missed it. I do watch a lot of C-SPAN and didn't see anything there. I would have thought your guy didn't make it through the primaries.

So you are willing to give all the breaks to the super rich and the corporation execs and let them decide what to trickle down to the rest of us, out of the goodness of their hearts and the dictates of the 'free' market. Let the charities provide for those who really need help. After all, we all 'know' that most of the have-nots in America are 'really' lazy bums anyway.

You have a right to your viewpoint and you're welcome to it. I'm glad a sufficient number of American voters had a different viewpoint. If the Republican politicians continue being obstructionist instead of finding ways to compromise, maybe the 2014 election will see them kicked out like the 2008 election did. Then they will have more time to play with horses, along with Romney's wife (who I'm sure would rather spend her time doing that anyway).

You should write a book about your life. Never know, it could be a best seller. Just be sure to label it fiction, no one would believe it was true.

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Old 20th November 2012, 02:33   #45
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Don't you write your Congress people?


Until very recently, this was my Congressman, who liked to dress up like a tiger and perve little girls. Even the Democrats thought he was too much. Nancy Pelosi actually called him to get him to resign.



This is Sam Adams. He's Portland's mayor. He's openly gay and likes teenage boys. He will make out with minors in the mens room but it's all ok because he allegedly waits until their 18 and a day to actually have sex with them. This is all fine and dandy in Portlandia.

I've wrote em. They are firmly in the pocket of whatever lobby is paying them. Or left. Or wearing chaps in a bucket of soapy frogs with a gallon of mazola and a tiger costume.

Why do I think taxing the rich is a problem? Because Obama isn't targeting the rich. The Supreme Court says Obamacare is a tax. If we look at it as a tax, it's the biggest one in history. It mandates turning over 20% of the GDP to core lobbies that wrote the bill.

We said we need help... they said get bent... Obama bobbled like a dashboard doll... All those super smart people told him what to do...

Obama... I need help with my medical care!

We'll just shake you upside down for a while and see what falls out of your pockets. Baby needs a new Prius. We must harvest the dead babies and bring Christopher Reeve back from the dead. We may even be able to genetically engineer a liberal chik-fil-a sandwich made completely of dead babies.

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Old 20th November 2012, 18:22   #46
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Even a politician's personal life is just that, unless he/she is breaking a law. Do (or did) these guys do their jobs well? Did they win their elections honestly?

Oregon is one of the few states I've not spent any time in during my professional and personal travels around the country. Looks like I'm going to leave it off any future travel plans.

Obama and his group are asking those making $250,000 and up to pay the higher rates that were in affect during the Clinton presidency. This money would go into the general tax pool or be designated for things other than the ACA.

I keep hearing that this will hurt the small businesses. I don't believe it. American business people are smart and crafty. All that is needed is the rules be put in place and left alone for a decent amount of time (longer than 3 to 6 or even 12 months). People will adjust. Most business tax is passed on to the consumer anyway. If a business increases their prices too much and lose customers, that's its fault.

If a company is beat by fair competition (foreign or domestic), isn't that how capitalism is supposed to work? If companies pay their workers a wage that forces them to shop with a competitor that offers lower prices, those fault is that? I believe most people want good quality at lowest cost, not the cheapest thing available. Unless that is the only way to try to meet all their mandatory expenses.

We have been in 2 major wars for over 10 years on the credit card (using very expensive weapons and support equipment, to say nothing about the manpower costs and the modern trend to outsource some of what was once all handled by the military). The wars did not have to happen or we should have agreed to special taxes to help pay for them at the start. Past bills need to be paid (or should we be forgiven our debt like what is done for some 3rd world countries?).

Major infrastructure (decades old) is crumbing all over the country and new work needs to be done.

Sure, broaden the tax base and put more people to work in the private sector (public sector just recycles the tax funds, doesn't increase them), but there's no 'good reason' why whose who can best afford it, not pay more now? It is overdue.

The ACA tax is applied to all that can afford it. The ACA is an imperfect start to universal health care in this country, which should have been started years ago, imo. It will take time to adjust to it and fix what will need fixing. I'm willing to give it a chance, almost anything has got to be better than the system we had.

Lobbies have a major hand in all laws (national and local). They always have. Lobbies are not new. They have existed since the founding of the country and before. They've been called by different names and not always in the news, but they have always been around.

There are lobbies for everything and they are not going away. Find those you agree with and contribute to them in some way, or sit on the sidelines. We don't have much choice other than to play the politics game the way its played. There could be further Constitutional amendments (some national, mostly state), but I don't think another American revolution is coming that will make major changes in our form of government (too much water under the bridge).

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Old 20th November 2012, 22:39   #47
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Even a politician's personal life is just that
Unless their personal life is a crime, which in the case of Mr. Wu it is, and in the case of Mr. Adams, they couldn't prove it. He was only caught making out with a high schooler in the mens room. They couldn't prove he actually butt pumped the kid until he was 18 and a day.

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We don't have much choice other than to play the politics game the way its played.
No. There is a choice. Nothing forces anyone to sell out to the lobby. Not every time do people sell out to the lobby. And if you do cooperate with a lobbyist, you make SOME kind of a deal instead of grabbing your ankles.

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We have been in 2 major wars for over 10 years on the credit card
That is irrelevant. It has nothing to do with anything. If it were the problem, Obama didn't do anything about it. He bitched and bitched and bitched and bitched and bitched and bitched about the Bush tax cuts and the Patriot Act, and then extended both. He bitched and bitched and bitched and bitched about Iraq, and then ended it on the Bush timeline. He bitched and bitched and bitched about Afghanistan and then escalated it. He bitched and bitched and bitched and bitched about Gitmo and then didn't close it. He bitched and bitched and bitched about the cost of medical care and then let the lobby TELL HIM how it was gonna go. He bitched and bitched and bitched about the economy, gave the bankers a trillion and had a beer with Paul Krugman.

President Obama. Leader or whiney bitch? I can't do anything --- it's those bad old Republicans...

We just elected a lame duck President. Nobody is gonna let him do anything. Game over. He squandered his political capital. If he was the guy he said he was, he would got my vote, but they've bitched slapped him like a punk.

You can have your ACA, if we don't have to fund it. That's from his own party. It doesn't even need to be repealed. It'll just collapse because nobody is gonna vote to fund it. If you can't fund this turd with a supermajority, what chance has he got now? Just passing the bill, not even funding it. That caused a mass Democrat firing.

Game over. Obama put all his political capital on one issue. Fucked it up. And even being re-elected.... he's done... A 51/49 victory against Rommey shows there are enough people to make sure he can't do anything. If he does do anything, we'll fire Congress. And that won't be just Republicans. ACA was a tough sell to his own party. And he didn't ever sell funding it. If he had to fund it, it never would have passed.

Nothing has changed. We are now on autopilot.

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Old 21st November 2012, 03:34   #48
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Unless their personal life is a crime, which in the case of Mr. Wu it is, and in the case of Mr. Adams, they couldn't prove it.
That is what I said, unless a law is broken. You all elected them. How well did they do their jobs? Did you all get anything out of the deal, other than embarrassment?

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No. There is a choice.
Again, like I said, "We don't have much choice".

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That is irrelevant. It has nothing to do with anything.
Of course you're right. After all, former Vice President Dick Cheney told us that deficits don't matter.

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ended it on the Bush timeline
What timeline was that? Former President Bush declared mission accomplished when he flew to the aircraft carrier. Then what happened? Seems to me, he did his 8 years and left it for someone else to deal with. Some Republican politicians say we should still be in Iraq.

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gave the bankers a trillion
The bail out (mis-labeled TARP) also started during former President Bush's administration. I believe it was former Treasury Secretary Henry Paulson who walked in at the last minute and delivered a 1 page ultimatum. I could be wrong, I was drinking that day.

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President Obama. Leader or whiney bitch? I can't do anything --- it's those bad old Republicans...
Of course you are right again. The economy free fall stopped itself. There is no Lilly Ledbetter Fair Pay Act (that's fake, just like the moon landing). Balance was not maintained on the Supreme Court (after all, it was former President Bush's Chief Justice appointment John G. Roberts, Jr. who was the deciding vote on accepting the constitutionality of the ACA). Don't Ask, Don't Tell was not done away with (another moon landing gimmick). Some illegal alien kids and young adults (who were born, or have spent most of their lives, in the US) can now look for a job, legally. That clearly is not right (they are supposed to risk their lives in the military first, or do crop harvesting for less than minimum wage then disappear, or at least watch somebody's kids and do the housework and cooking).

I could go on, but what's the point. The Obama administration has done nothing worth mentioning.

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Nothing has changed. We are now on autopilot.
Well Senate minority leader Mitch McConnell did fail in his mission, so the remainder of his term probably is on autopilot. What else is there for him to do (its clear he is not fit for the job he was elected to do)?

Some Republican members of Congress did lose, so the rest may just hunker down and draw their pay checks for 2 or more years. After all, life is just fine for them and who wouldn't like a few more bucks, especially if they don't have to do anything for it.


rockouthippie, this has been fun. I'll probably banter with you some more down the road, but for now, I'm done.

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Old 21st November 2012, 04:37   #49
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Of course you're right. After all, former Vice President Dick Cheney told us that deficits don't matter.
The war is 2 Trillion. Bush's drug bill was 1 Trillion. That leaves 14 Trillion that didn't have anything to do with the war.

Cheney is right. The deficit doesn't matter. It's the housing bubble Clinton and the Democrats created that's the problem. Bush warned Congress in 2001. Barney Frank and Nancy Pelosi chuckled about it and a liberal congress ended our chance for a soft landing.

What happened? Just what Bush told Congress would happen. The housing bubble popped and took 20% of the US economy with it.

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Old 21st November 2012, 16:39   #50
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I really had decided to leave this thread alone for a while. But while multi-tasking on some other stuff, I watched you go through version after version of your post. So many thoughts went through my mine I had to respond one more time and give you something to chew on for a while. I'm sure you will come up with your own interpretation of the facts.

Part 1
First a little history (mostly before we were born), to put things in context.


Some people have been hell bent on world domination for a long long long time. Its natural for each tribe/group to think theirs is the best. Some took this to extremes. Germany was one. But the island nations of Britain and Japan were even worst. At some point on both islands, the notion that a small group of them were born superior to all the rest took whole and the majority accepted it. So the small group on each island divided themselves up into a hierarchy and ruled over the majority on each island. The titles the small groups took on were different on each island, but the divisions of leadership were the same.

The natural barriers between these islands and the main lands was such that each island nation was able to build themselves up into a formidable force. When they decided to break out (which they had to to survive, the island resources only went so far) others on the main land could not stop them. They never considered trying to cooperate with other people and trying to share stuff. It was all dominate and control. The Japanese had some success for a while, but they were forced to retreat to their island and retool for another attempt later.

The British on the other hand were much more successful for a much longer time. At one point, the sun never set on the British empire. They ran on holy Crusades through Africa and the Middle East, destroying what they couldn't steal or didn't understand. They sent their worst political criminals to Australia. But even they overreached and sent colonists to North America. The worst of the best and the best of the worst, all of whom shared their countrymen desire for world domination. This mixture of folks decided there was no superior and inferior among them by birth, but that each man could be king of what he could grab and hold on to.

After breaking off from Britain, separated by oceans from everyone else, labor supplied mostly by black slaves (and some indentured Asians and poor whites), expertise from immigrants (viewed as 2nd class), and with abundant natural resources, these transplanted British built themselves up into Americans. After some in fighting (brother against brother, father against son), the quest for domination was satisfied for a time with Manifest Destiny. The control of as much of North America as possible, from sea to shining sea. The opportunity to start on the world domination quest came with WWII. By this time, Japan had decided to try again on their own quest with Germany and Italy. They were beat back relatively quickly this time with the help of 2 atomic bombs made and dropped by Americans. Britain had to break up its empire to pay the Americans for support again Germany and Italy. Italy really didn't count to much, but they had joined up with Germany and Japan dreaming of their ancient Roman empire which had had some success against Britain back then.

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Old 21st November 2012, 16:42   #51
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Part 2

China and Russia had their dreams of domination too. China had ruled most of the world for a time, back when the known world was much smaller. Now it had so many people and land within its borders, it was all it could handle to maintain it. Even so China was looking around at things, but it remembered the tussles it had had with Japan. Russia also had a lot of people and land within its borders to deal with (stretched out by its own empire building) and was looking for more. Both nations also had had to deal with some in fighting. Then Germany overreached and attacked Russia too. So Russia reluctantly joined up with Britain and the USA. There were other bit players, Canada, Spain, Sweden, Mexico, Brazil, Argentina, and the like and nations like France, Poland, Turkey, and the Philippines that Germany/Italy/Japan had quickly captured. They either stayed neutral and played all sides, joined up with their border nations, or fought back the best they could against their German/Italian/Japanese occupiers.

Shortly after the American success in WWII, President Eisenhower and Vice President Nixon (Republicans) were in the White House. Republicans in the country seeking political and economic world domination really got rolling. Republicans owned most of the factories that made war materials and many other things. Eisenhower wasn't totally on board with the domination thing, but he wasn't a rat and couldn't say much anyway since he didn't want his wartime affair with his British female driver thrown in his wife Mamie's face. So, all he did was give a warning to watch the military industrial complex, played golf, and sent a few advisers to help the French in Vietnam. Things kept escalating in Vietnam, finally the French cut bait and left. We macho Americans stayed.

In the late 40ties, then 50ties and 60ties, the USA was the dominant manufacturing power with domestic oil and cheap oil from the Middle East to keep energy costs down. High quality products were built to last a long time. Then OPEC was formed in the mid 70ties and most Middle East nations started to overcharge for their oil as payback for the years of being underpaid. The rising cost of energy and labor costs started to cut profits and the economy started slowing down. Nixon (same one, now President) went to China (the so called communist enemy) to try to open trade markets before he had to leave the White House in disgrace over some illegal campaign tactics. He said as President, he was above the law. He found out he was not and the crime was so stupid, breaking into a campaign office of the opposition.

All during this time, in the name of national security and halting the spread of communism, the administrations (mostly Republican) directly or indirectly started wars (speed bumps, you call them), most notably Korea and Vietnam, with Chinese and Russian surrogates and got small nations fighting each other to further build political and economic power. Cuba wasn't a war, but a failed invasion was embarrassing. A showdown with Russia later over nukes was very scary at the time. I remember drills at school, crawling under our desks and kissing our asses goodbye.

Dictators were easier to manipulate, so that is who the administrations teamed up with. The war materials factories were extremely profitable. War was one of the few highly profitable ventures. Democratic administrations usually ended these wars or tried to as best they could, sometimes they let them drag on for a while for the economic benefit to the nation. The big exception was Nixon ending Vietnam to win re-election.

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Old 21st November 2012, 16:45   #52
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Part 3
Contemporary history (after we were born)

Then Iran kicked the Shah out, took the US embassy staff into custody, and raised the price of their oil. South American oil, which had been turned to as a hedge against Middle East oil, was also rising in cost. Now the Republicans decided to shift the USA from a manufacturing nation to a consumer nation. Manufacturing would be done cheaper off shore and goods would be designed to last as long as their warranted periods.

Even with falling wages, good advertising and easy credit had Americans buying and buying. Couple of problems and unforeseen consequences with the new economic model. Even with the lifetime of durable goods shorten, how many and how often could a family or individual buy them? After there is a tv in every room, do you need more? How many are willing to throw away a working item from the previous year to get the current year model? Even with the overpriced items that people were convinced they had to have. How many designer jeans and air jordans could the average person buy? Offshore demand for American products, once high in demand for quality and durability, was falling since the quality and durability was no longer there. Worst of all, how high can a consumer economy drive the GNP and how sustainable will it be to able to offset deficits (Cheney's cure)?

The Reagan (Republican) administration made a secret deal with Iran (later known as the the Iran–Contra affair),to get them to release the US embassy staff and then got Iraq to fight a surrogate war with Iran (lasted over 7 years). A sweet deal selling weapons to both sides and getting them to use them on each other. Osama bin Laden, son of billionaire Mohammed bin Awad bin Laden (a Saudi Arabian), was recruited and trained to form and lead a rebel insurgent force in Afghanistan against the Russian invaders (with USA supplied weapons and reconnaissance support). The Russian invasion lasted over 9 years. Laden was abandon and Afghanistan left without promised support when the Russians withdrew. Laden promised revenge. The air traffic controllers union was busted up. Key banking and Wall Street regulations were removed. The USSR was ultimately tricked into economic collapse with another arms race (Star Wars). After a few more dubious accomplishments, Regan left office after 8 years, a hero with an approval rating of 68%.

Now Iraq invaded Kuwait with mostly Russian made weapons and what was left of the American ones. Kuwait is one of the few Middle East countries selling oil at close to reasonable prices, mostly to Britain. So the first Bush (Republican) administration had to invade Iraq to force it to leave Kuwait. Dick Cheney was the Secretary of Defense from 1989 to 1993. Taxes were raised to help pay for this and the Star Wars arms race and Bush (the father) lost re-election.

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Old 21st November 2012, 17:00   #53
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The Clinton (Democrat) administration refused to escalate involvement in wars kicked off by the USSR collapse and other engineered hot spots around the world. Clinton signed into law the Defense of Marriage Act (DOMA), which defines marriage as the legal union of one man and one woman. The House of Representatives voted to impeach Clinton for lying about his affair with Monica Lewinsky. His administration started an economic recovery, partly lead by helping people buy houses, and Clinton left office after 8 years with an approval rating of 68%. Whether he left office with a $230B surplus (the first in decades) or a $16.5B deficit is still being debated. With the current USA deficit of over $16T only 2 months short of 12 years later, it doesn't much matter.

The second Bush (Republican) administration was on watch during the worst attack on American soil since Pearl Harbor on 12-7-1941, Osama bin Laden's revenge on 9-11-01, also known as the attack on the World Trade Center in New York. Dick Cheney was Vice President. Donald Rumsfeld was Secretary of Defense from 2001 to 2006. This Bush administration saw the USA deficit go over $1T for the first time in history. Bush talked to Congress and anybody who would listen long enough for him to finally say what he was trying to say. His speech problems are those of a recovered alcoholic, so he should be forgiven. He called for the Ownership Society (his version of the shiny House on the Hill rhetoric). His administration saw the near collapse of the USA and world economy, triggered by a USA housing market driven mad by massive bad mortgage loans and the bundling and reselling of these mortgages by incomprehensible Wall Street brokerage deals. How you figure this is Clinton's fault over 8 years later, I don't understand when the excesses started under Bush's watch and his watchdogs. Bush (the son) left office after 8 years with the country engaged in 2 major wars (in Iraq and Afghanistan) and on the brink of that economic collapse.

The first Obama (Democrat) administration has seen the retreat from the edge of the collapse of the USA and world economy, and we not still not out of the woods, 4 years later. Some see that as a testament to how bad things were. Others don't want to think about it that way, its to scary for them. They rather say it should all be fixed by now. His administration was on watch when Osama bin Laden was killed on 5-2-2011 by members of the United States Naval Special Warfare Development Group and Central Intelligence Agency operatives in a covert operation. His administration was on watch at the end of the second war in Irag and during the passage of several historic acts of Congress, including the Affordable Care Act (which has survived a Constitutional challenge). He will be starting his second term is about 2 months, so his total accomplishments and failures are unknown.

Wrap up and Quiz

Since Truman in 1945 to Obama now, there have been 6 Republican and 6 Democratic USA Presidents. Republicans have served for 36 years and Democrats so far for 32 years. The only time 2 men of the same party were elected or served back to back, not due to death (Kennedy & Johnson) or scandal (Nixon & Ford), were Reagan and Bush (the father). Johnson finished Kennedy's first term and was elected for 1 of his own. Ford finished Nixon's second term. I leave it up to you to double check the facts and fill in the blanks. Interpret the facts anyway you want, but please use facts (otherwise what's the point).

Carter may never have been elected if Nixon had not been kicked out. Nixon may never have been elected if Kennedy had not been assassinated (the Warren Commission report of the assassination was a total coverup). We will never know, but it is interesting to think about. Either way, if those men had completed their 8 years, I'm fairly sure things today would be very different from what they are.

Which party was in the White House leading up to and/or at the outbreak of major wars and economic downturns and which party was in the White House during recoveries from both? Some kinda overlap, but its not too hard to decide which camp they belong in.

Which party was in the White House during landmark Acts of Congress and which was not? You can even decide which Acts of Congress were good or bad. Knowing you, I just have to switch the titles of each list to get it right.

Which party do the chief execs of major banks, stock brokerages, and corporations belong to, especially the weapons factories? Some won't say, I wonder why. This is an extra credit question.

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Old 21st November 2012, 22:30   #54
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That was a pretty good spray of left wing propaganda. We propped up some dictators, but usually they were better than the alternatives. If they were replaced, I can't think of a time they were replaced with anybody better.

We propped up the Shah, and the Iranians replaced him with the Ayatollah. Things went a lot better for your average Iranian with the Shah.

By the 1930's, we didn't even have an army. America dragged ass to enter the second world war. We didn't want to get involved in a European war which was largely over their imperialism.

So we did what we had to do. We conquered the Nazi's and Japan and then we gave them their countries back. We stopped the Chinese from turning South Korea into North Korea. We lost to the communists in Vietnam. That was a good thing? The murdered hundreds of thousands and sent millions off to prison for re-education.

Lenin could have wrote what you just wrote. It's bullshit. America is cool. Even if you got here as the descendants of a slave, you should be glad to be here. I might give your ancestors some special grace for having been slaves. But this is America.... 90% of us are ancestors of the huddled masses. Most of us showed up around 1900. Most of our ancestors never saw a slave, much less owned one. We were almost slaves ourselves. Included in the mass immigration around 1900, were Africans that never were slaves.

When my mom was alive, I always used to send her with a really nice Somalian taxi driver that works here. He showed up about 10 years ago. You don't hear him saying "God Damn America". He's got a shit eating grin! I was reading the paper when he was driving one time and mentioned Portland had it's 5th murder of the year in October. It shocked him. He was used to 50 murders a day. He bought himself a nice shiny Lincoln, and is living the life of Riley.

You can spout that "God Damn America", Reverend Wright horseshit, but it's just that.

I think we did pretty good. We kept the Russians, Japanese, Chinese and Germans from taking over the planet, ended a 1000 year European War, ended a cold war, and all it cost was pissing off some Arabs.

Why don't you compare how many people America killed in the last 100 years, to China, Germany or Russia or Japan? You don't see the Bataan death march in our history, and we didn't stick 10 million people in the oven. You don't see the Soviet and Chinese starvation programs that purposely starved 200 million people to death. You see guys like Herbert Hoover, who saved millions of Russians from starvation.

I'm sorry your ancestors were slaves 150 years ago. My ancestors, most peoples ancestors, didn't have it much better.

White people picked cotton too. You could be white and get lynched. Life pretty much sucked everywhere for almost everybody until very, very recently. My great grandfathers life might have sucked a little less than yours. But good was when you didn't starve.

You're ten years younger than I am, and I know there are some things that probably pissed you off. But play me a tune on the worlds tiniest violin. Our ancestors had it rough. Somebody might have called you names. People have called me names too. Bummer.

This is the same kind of nonsense you get from atheists when they bring up the Spanish Inquistion. In 1380 to 1450...

You and I. If we've got any big problems. It's usually that guy we shave in the morning that's the problem.

You might think Martin Luther King saved black people, but the truth is that America likes African Americans. For my kin, MLK was speaking to the choir. We could have skipped the riots, Reverend Wright etc. 90% of the people that ever came to this country were fleeing oppression of some kind. We understand. And frankly, if you were getting fucked over, we figured someone would get around to us.

Americans, including African Americans, are generous, decent, fair minded lot. It isn't perfect, but we're not villains. Romney wouldn't have "put you back in chains".

Wake up.

My biker buddy Dawg is a honcho for American Indian Movement and gets 6 figures. I just don't think he wants to go back to hunting the buffalo unless he can take his helicopter, his motorcycles, his hot tub and his plasma TV. But "God Damn America".

Oh brother.

You were born in 1951 and me in 1962. We both saw some shit these kids won't. I don't even think the kids in Oregon here understand what poor is and our parents could safely say the same about us.

So... getting better.... Happy Thanksgiving. We've got 250 million Turkeys to eat with 750 million pounds of cranberry sauce... and I'm firmly convinced if you didn't have any money, somebody will help you out. Even if it is a grumpy old biker dude.

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Old 23rd November 2012, 15:07   #55
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That was a pretty good spray of left wing propaganda.
No propaganda, just some facts.

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You don't see the Bataan death march in our history
No, we had the Trail of Tears.


Look, America has gotten better and is getting better. But it takes cooperation. It takes compromise. It takes the Right and the Left finding common ground and stopping all the name calling. It takes us accepting that we are all human and no side as all the right answers or even knows all the questions.

Happy Holidays.

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Old 24th November 2012, 00:30   #56
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When I saw the title I thought it was about how much time until the next Winamp update! =D :P
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Old 24th November 2012, 07:10   #57
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It takes the Right and the Left finding common ground
Really? Fuck hippies. Good at pissing on parked cars, burning their schools and neighborhoods down, littering, and being obnoxious.

Ted has to teach a tolerance class, so that we can identify people we can't say WTF? to. We look me up... I'm not on the list... people get to say What the Fuck?

If I went and went down and beat the shit out of the neighbor and got shot, someone might donate a cardboard box to bury me in. I wouldn't get a task force. I'm not on the liberal victims list.

I have a feeling that if I was the mayor, and I accosted a 17 year old girl in a restaurant bathroom, somebody would say WHAT THE FUCK!. Let's look me up. I'm not on the list of liberal victims. I'm screwed.

The trail of tears..... my family wasn't here. That was 180 years ago. We didn't show up for another 90 years. Sins of no one I ever knew? Sins of no one I'm even distantly related to? Sins of nobody whose been alive for more than 100 years?

I was raised Catholic. They had that Inquisition 600 YEARS AGO. What do I owe for coaching soccer at the CYO?

If you pop me in a freezer and thaw me out in 500 years, will I still be expected to have white mans guilt?

And those evil Mormons... just run around riding bicycles, helping people. Going off to foreign countries to help starving people. And they might even... oh no!... pray for you. That Romney... he's gonna put you back in chains and make you buy your own condoms.

That might offend some liberal in a thong at a range of 1500 miles.

Not that there aren't right wing kooks. There is a difference between them and a liberal. It's much easier to appeal to them to "Do No Harm". "Do No Harm" isn't in the liberal vocabulary. If something doesn't suit a liberal.. burn it... piss on it... litter on it.

You might not even have known how abused you are if not for a well paid intellectually superior liberal you've been provided at taxpayer expense. And when you do listen to all that horseshit, and riot, Bill Clinton will help you with 100,000 extra cops.

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Old 27th November 2012, 00:16   #58
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Tolerance isn't about teaching hatred for the majority. It's about being open minded and accepting when it comes to harmless differences in cultures.

"Do no harm" has never been against liberalism. Reducing harm to those that hurt most is more in line with liberalism.

Littering isn't part of liberalism. Liberals are generally pro-environmentalism and "green", generally hating pollution and the act of littering.

Hatred of Mormons isn't even part of Liberalism, although some will pretend it is. Quite the opposite actually; it's actually the ultra-conservative groups that speak out the most against Mormonism, because it doesn't align itself well with the fundamental WASP beliefs.

I will agree that no one should have to take blame for something that happened before his/her own birth, or something that isn't in some way his/her fault. But, you can't go out and tell people not to teach historical facts about injustice. It's that kind of education that reduces the present and future occurrences of it. Of the thousands of minorities I have worked for, not one of them has ever blamed me for their ancestors' oppression, despite my color and gender. Extremely few actually do that. That would be like me blaming the British for oppressing the Irish many generations ago.

The "chains" comment that was popular during the election campaign had nothing to do with slavery. I'm not aware of liberalism causing people to burn down schools and neighborhoods. I'm not sure what you mean about the cardboard box line; I'm not aware of anyone willing to donate much to a violent criminal regardless of what list he/she's on. No one has ever made the accusation that Romney would chain people up, nor has anyone called Mormons evil.

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Heh, sorry you were misled. Kinda funny how all this goes on at WinAMP forums.

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Old 27th November 2012, 10:11   #59
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I will agree that no one should have to take blame for something that happened before his/her own birth, or something that isn't in some way his/her fault.
I was not implying that with my little history lesson. I meant it more along the lines that you understood. It was about attitudes and the truism that those who don't know their history are likely to repeat it.

No side has a monopoly on being morally right or politically just and correct. Each side has done some regrettable things in the name of their political and moral beliefs. Beyond all that, it's not strictly a Left or Right issue, it's more complicated than that.

I don't blame anyone living today for what happened to my ancestors. I do want them to try to understand that conditions today (for me and everyone) did not just spring into being. They are the result of a long and winding road. As I have shown by that trip down memory lane, it was racial attitudes, more than anything else, that lead to disproportional control of resources that in-turn lead to WWII. Control of the White House (and Congress for that matter) has been equally divided between the two major US political parties since the end of WWII (back and forth almost every 8 years). If you want to get into the blame game, there's enough to go around for everybody.

I think rockouthippie understands that, but he seems to like bending things in a certain direction.

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Old 28th November 2012, 02:17   #60
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I didn't take your posts as blaming anyone that's not to blame, and I appreciate that you aren't one to do that. We all have to learn sometime; luckily a lot of that kind of learning happened before our time. Most (but not all) of the racism that I witness first hand isn't as much towards Blacks anymore but is shifting towards Latinas/Latinos. Hispanic students of mine are often called "illegals", sometimes even multiple times by a staff member behind their backs at a previous job, and are often victim of various cases of bullying, even though they're legally naturalized or native born citizens.

It is indeed the case that both sides have the ability to cause problems. I tend to see more on one side and less on the other, but that's mostly a product of my upbringing and experience. Perhaps RoH's experience has led him a different way. I can respect that, despite my seemingly endless attacks at his statements. On other (mostly non-political) threads I often agree with him 100%, even to the point of finding value and guidance in his advice. Kinda hard to believe after all these heated political debates, but it's true.

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Old 28th November 2012, 04:26   #61
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On other (mostly non-political) threads I often agree with him 100%, even to the point of finding value and guidance in his advice. Kinda hard to believe after all these heated political debates, but it's true.
I know and agree. The way I see things, nobody is all right or all wrong. I've even defended him in another forum.

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Old 28th November 2012, 09:00   #62
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I'm sorry your ancestors were slaves 150 years ago. My ancestors, most peoples ancestors, didn't have it much better.

White people picked cotton too. You could be white and get lynched. Life pretty much sucked everywhere for almost everybody until very, very recently. My great grandfathers life might have sucked a little less than yours. But good was when you didn't starve.

You're ten years younger than I am, and I know there are some things that probably pissed you off. But play me a tune on the worlds tiniest violin. Our ancestors had it rough. Somebody might have called you names. People have called me names too. Bummer.

This is the same kind of nonsense you get from atheists when they bring up the Spanish Inquistion. In 1380 to 1450...

You and I. If we've got any big problems. It's usually that guy we shave in the morning that's the problem.
This is the type of attitude and kind of assumptions that got me so pissed off when I was younger. Now, I mostly feel sad that someone who is obviously not stupid, can be so ignorant. It's also sad (and could be dangerous) how some people can so easily dismiss what they have not personally experienced.

Even with what I have experienced as a kid, teenager, and young adult, I realize I have no clue as to what it must have really been like to be a slave. But to think that slavery, especially American slavery, was not much worst than being poor and struggling, is just being ignorant and clueless. If you knew something about it, you would know that one of the few things an American slave did not have to worry about was starving.

I know you meant 10 years older. FYI, words don't bother me. I had to learn that at a very young age (visiting in the South) or I would not be alive today. I do object to being touched, in a hurtful/harmful way, without me doing anything overt to provoke the action. I'm still carrying a few body scars from an attack by a small group of white teenagers when I was 19. I like to think some of them are carrying scars too. My crime, near as I can figure it, was walking past the Boston Common at the same time they were there. Since I said nothing to them and they said nothing to me other than a little name calling, prior to their attacking me, I can only assume my crime was just being there and being Black.

I can point to plenty historical and contemporary excuses for being pissed off. But being pissed off does not gain me anything. Now, in 2012, I do agree with your final point, that I quoted above. That is a good idea. Its not Left or Right. Its just a good idea.

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Old 29th November 2012, 08:58   #63
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Here's Mitt Romney's dad George out in an NAACP march in 1963.... pre-riot, pre-hippie America. He oppressed people by building working class cars. His employees were rich enough to buy one.



Here's a picture of Gaskell Romney (1927) who was out oppressing people by growing potatoes in the middle of fucking nowhere Idaho. That's Mitt's grandfather. You can tell the woman and young girl were beaten down in the foreground and not given free condoms and an abortion factory. Mitt's dad's the one in the varsity jacket. Mitt's grandfather grew up in Mexico, but his family had to run away broke from the Mexican revolution. The Mexicans burned the Mormons out and took their land in 1910. Before that those evil Romneys were oppressing people all the way from England where slavery had already been illegal for 100 years. Chances are, he never got within 1000 miles or closer than 30 years away from a slave. Remember? Slavery was abolished in most states in the 1790's as it was in England. It was never legal in Idaho.

He's gonna put you back in chains!

They're white. They go to church. They did it.

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Old 29th November 2012, 15:48   #64
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My mom spent a lot of time in her young adulthood doing radiation treatment on victims of Hiroshima. Her friend, Anna, who worked with her, was a German Jew who still had her concentration camp number tatooed on her arm. She grew up in Birkenau.

Did somebody not kiss your boo boo? Did they call you names? Did somebody bully you or OMG cyber-bully you? Not cyber-bullied... Oh no!

And somebody might be smoking within a mile of a hospital entrance. It's super-lib to the rescue.

And if you need your Chicago ghetto organized, you can count on Michelle and Barack Obama. It'll still be a slum, but it'll be organized.

And BTW - You're too fat!

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Old 30th November 2012, 01:43   #65
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Apparently you didn't see the results of the community organizing that Obama did.

Not sure what the fat comment referred to.

I'm not saying Romney or his family were evil people; but I have implied and do believe that Obama was the better option between the two choices I was given for a lot of reasons. I also believe that despite not being evil, he is a major player in a game that I find very damaging while running for an office where he could potentially change the rules of said game to make it worse.

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Old 30th November 2012, 19:45   #66
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How could you miss fat? Michelles been running around "fixing" school lunch programs.

How do you figure Obama is a better choice other than your programmed blue tint?

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he could potentially change the rules of said game to make it worse
Cuz.... Romney's a bigot.... "He's gonna put you back in chains".

Let's examine a left wing chain we all wear:

1995:

"This is a big deal," Clinton said. "This is about more than money and sticks and boards and windows. This is about the way we live as a people and what kind of society we're going to have."

Sounds Good Huh?

Not only are minorities further away from home ownership than they ever were. Everyone is. It only cost the United States government a Trillion to completely destroy our real estate market.

Now Obama is going to come along and save you from what he (collectively) did to you.

Let them eat cheese..... government cheese.....

Next on the menu, we will be finishing off the medical industry.... but don't worry....

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Old 30th November 2012, 23:42   #67
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Can you please review the chains comment, with the surrounding text? You're missing it completely. It was a Biden speech where Biden says that the Republicans say "unchain", meaning de-regulate, and Biden says we're gunna put you back in chains, meaning he supports putting regulation back into place. Nobody that actually read or heard the entire topic of the speech has misunderstood, as the analogy was pretty clearly articulated. It's generally only the people that hear bits and pieces that didn't get it.

As far as blame (for deregulation), yes, Clinton shares some of the beginning of it, but that's not the point at all. The point is that the deregulation proved to be very damaging, regardless of who's at fault, and that some regulation needed to be returned. The "cheese" that was given as a result was given with strong support from anyone that understands the catastrophe that would have happened without it, from both parties. It started under a different president anyway. It sucked that it became necessary, but it was.

School lunches needed to be fixed. They used to be awful processed, canned, re-hydrated, or just shitty institutional bulk type processed foods. Luckily many states preceded the work of the First Lady. For example, in Iowa, we had the "Safe and Healthy Kids Act" which made school more nutritious and physically active while not mandating at all that students needed to eat the school lunches. Students can still pack their own, but if they choose a school lunch, it is higher in nutrients, and lower in harmful agents - including ingredients that support obesity, other medical conditions, and excessive tooth decay. Sadly nearly 100% of kids don't brush their teeth after lunch, so this is very important to them. The kids don't complain any more than they did before these changes were made; most actually responded favorably. Luckily every cafeteria staff I have had since the push to change is able to produce a very good-tasting lunch despite these new standards, enough that I'm willing to buy what they cook rather than bring my own (with the exception of when they serve lasagna - I can't fucking stand ricotta cheese or fresh mushrooms). I find the food a lot better than before the change - they cook from scratch with fresh, quality ingredients rather than canned/processed/rehydrated now, and you can taste the clearly noticeable difference. Things have better textures, mouth-feels, more defined ingredient taste, and less sodium and cholesterol and other bad shit than before. White tasteless bread is wheat now. No more soda to rot teeth due to no brushing. Beans have that fresh crunch. Soups have texture rather than canned mush. Chicken has stringed muscle meat, not the slimy gel you used to see in those nasty nuggets. I'll admit the move from ranch to fat free ranch sucks, but I take Italian instead now and it's good. You say this is bad? The other side of the coin is Saint Reagan who tried to say ketchup is an acceptable vegetable. We do food service surveys 4 times per year at our school (right around the time report cards are distributed). If I remember right, we average about 96% of students saying "agree" or "strongly agree" to the final question that asks if they're overall pleased with the food service at our school, with the remaining 4% total responses of "indifferent", "disagree", or "strongly disagree". Perhaps not all schools are getting this good of feedback, but I'm guessing the push for change is causing an increase in good feedback.

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Old 1st December 2012, 00:05   #68
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They're still fat little buggers

You want and think a monolithic, omnipotent United States government can cure all of societies ills. I think it's the problem.

You want them to do something. I want them to pack up their carpet bag and go home.
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Old 1st December 2012, 00:34   #69
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That's the core belief between conservatism, which in some ways is good.

Yeah, they're still in some cases really fat, but in less cases than the past. We're battling video games these days.

Video games and other excessive screen time seem to put on more fat than almost any dietary choice, but sadly we don't have much control over home life at the school, so we do as much as we can during the school day to improve things in terms of increasing physical activity time and improving school meals.

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Old 1st December 2012, 00:39   #70
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My kid - I'm Cold! Here's an axe. Chop some wood. Heats you twice.

The reason people are poor is the government. If if it was out of our fucking way, we would all have money falling out our ass and could actually afford to help the poor instead of paying to pretend to.

Obama, he can save you from God, but it's gonna be really expensive. You may have to eat government cheese.

You can have your college education and a shot at a future (no warranty) all you have to do is give us ten years wages.

And we'll get your slum really well organized. But it takes money.

I was a liberal sitting in my office jerking off and I paid me because I'm special and I have a student loan... ... Aw darn... we're all out of money.... but we do have some cheese and a condom.....

Luckily I have a college education so I'm imminently qualified to hand out the condom and cheese. I'll say something about civil rights or electric cars... these dumb asses won't know the difference.
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Old 1st December 2012, 00:57   #71
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You've not lived during times and places that prove otherwise. Luckily I haven't either, but I live in a place that once was beneath current third-world conditions, only half a century ago. The extreme generational poverty brought on starvation, disease, lack of education, incest, and crime. This exact location (literally my town) was the birthplace on JFK's "War on Poverty" because of the conditions people faced. Many survivors of that era are still alive today because of it, but would have certainly died off without it. They were given vocational and life-skills training that led them to get their lives back in order, and they were given supplies to meet basic human needs while in transition.

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Old 1st December 2012, 01:07   #72
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You might remember what LBJ did about getting electric energy to rural places. But he wasn't handing out government cheese. He was making opportunities.

JFK and LBJ's idea was to get people started, not feed em'

Malcolm X would have been offended by affirmative action. He didn't want "shit from whitey". He just wanted to be left alone and not have people fuck with him.

Unfortunately, we can't dig any of these guys up, but I think they'd strongly disagree with you. I think they'd be pissed the ghetto grew.

You aren't talking about JFK or LBJ, you're talking about Jimmy Carter and George McGovern.

By today's standards, Mitt Romney would be left of JFK.
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Old 1st December 2012, 02:27   #73
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This area's story wasn't really a Black thing, the poverty here involved mostly Whites. The "cheese" you refer to is actually (at least designed to be) the same basic thing - a good start and transitional help. I don't support cases where assistance is prolonged, abused, or proven not to produce positive outcomes. I treat my job the same way - if assessment and evaluation shows that an intervention or program isn't working, it's either fixed or abandoned and replaced. It's good that you mentioned LBJ, as he's the one that did a lot more work on the War on Poverty, whereas JFK just got it started.

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Old 1st December 2012, 03:16   #74
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Quote:
I don't support cases where assistance is prolonged, abused, or proven not to produce positive outcomes.
Yes, but you have the wrong culprit. Our government fucks people up and then blames them for it.

Let's take the bell ringer I saw today. I know she was a welfare mommy, and because of some work-fare provisions, she's out ringing a bell. So the Salvation Army gets a free worker we pay for.

So we got this woman out in a rain storm (because of liberals at Albertsons, she's not allowed inside the store) and we got her singing for her supper, but don't pretend we're doing her any favors.

You mentioned one time that we should pull food stamps from people who use sell them and buy drugs or booze. Because we have to hire a liberal to investigate that, I think we should just buy em a drink. It's cheaper.

BB needs another walk to give a coat to a wet welfare mommy.
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Old 1st December 2012, 17:34   #75
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I don't see how in the cases I mentioned that the government is at fault. I worked for the Salvation Army for the 1996 season. I rang a bell until for a week or so until we were able to put together a Brass Ensemble for a few months that played holiday music (I'm a trombone player) at Prime Outlets and Wal*Mart - this is before I started to hate that store. Sometimes it rained, sometimes it snowed, and it was always cold, but since we dressed well, it wasn't a harmful problem. Some jobs have adverse weather conditions. Deal with it or get another job. I made minimum $5.15 as a bell-ringer and $5.50 per hour as a player. To me that raise was big, and it supplemented other jobs to help get me through school.

How do you know she was a welfare mommy? Many probably made the welfare assumption about me when I worked, but that didn't make it true.

It's true that stores often don't let Salvation Army workers in, but donations tend to be higher outside anyway. One of the reasons that the stores don't always let SA workers in is because they already have their own donation program in place (Ronald McDonald House, American Cancer Society, United Way, etc.) and there is language in their written agreements that prohibits competing non-profits/charities inside the store.

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Old 1st December 2012, 21:02   #76
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I refuse to give to the United Way, their executives take a far to big of a cut of the top to support their lavish lifestyle.
I don't have any problems giving to the Salvation Army though, their top executive gets about $65.000 per year.
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Old 1st December 2012, 23:56   #77
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This is not $5.50 an hour. This is workfare. Forced unpaid labor because you are on welfare. It's isn't just SA. It's probably one of the nicer alternatives. Ordinarily I think work is a good thing, but this looks too much like an inmate doing community service.

It's not a crime to be poor.

A lot of companies are backing away from the program, because they think it smells.

The UK calls it workfare. We call it the Personal Responsibility and Work Opportunity Act.

It's something I've ran into in business too. If I hire one of these welfare moms, the state will pick up half their pay for 6 months of "training". Of course, most employers fire them at 6 months and a day and go on to find another worker to "train" to take out the trash and mop.

One thing you know about workers you are paying $4 an hour for. They know if you could pay them any less or treat them any worse, you would.

I've hired a few women this way, and they were shocked that I didn't fire them on day 181. Never happened before. Usually it's.... we "trained" you.... have a nice life....

Oops! My left wing is showing. A leftover from the days when the Democrats worried about working people instead of Snooki's near fatal fat lip.

A bone huh? I jam with some guys sometimes. We lost our bone player because his wife won't let him come out and play with us any more Like the true man he is, he blamed it all on us. And like the true men we are, we said "Yeah... we threw that chick up in the air and she just happened to land on his face... our bad....".....

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Old 2nd December 2012, 01:54   #78
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I've indirectly worked for the United Way too when I worked with the Boys & Girls Clubs (of Summit County). I wasn't happy with how they handled their money either. Locally we were very good with our finances, having far more donated to us than we needed to continue local operations, but because they were failing regionally, they shut us down, laying off the entire staff including me in July of 2004. They eventually re-opened with a newer, much lower-paid staff, but by then I had already secured a better job.

As far as the work requirement in welfare, as mean as it may sound, it needs to be a system that is less desirable than a non-welfare job; otherwise there's no motivation to get off welfare. The job may not be the best option, but in most cases they're still dignified. I wasn't above doing my share of entry level jobs. You gotta start somewhere.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rockouthippie View Post
if you could pay them any less or treat them any worse, you would.
Also true with minimum wage. I've made minimum wage in the SA and also at Perkins Family Restaurant, except... When you're a server in PA or OH like I was, minimum wage was only $2.83 and $2.13 respectively for tip-based employees the entire time I worked there (late 90's), and it hasn't raised for PA yet! Some states are still at $2.13!

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Old 2nd December 2012, 02:47   #79
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I think you could just hire the people on welfare and not fuck around. If living on welfare isn't punishment enough, you've got bigger problems. One of the big problems I see with welfare is that it isn't enough to really survive on. Poverty wears a person down. Being too stingy about the "fortune" we give people who are down on their luck.... I think creates people who aren't work ready more than it was their intention to stay on welfare.

The county and state beagles around here we hire to fuck with them, liberals all, are well paid. They'll get a whole bunch of wonderful advise, none of which will work. I used to date a probation officer, so I might have a different perspective from your average bear. She spent a lot of her time trying to keep the system from running over her caseload with a road grader. Not to say she wouldn't hit you like a hammer if you got out of line.

If you thought people working was the most important thing, you should have voted for Romney.

Now aggravating the problem is 12 million who were working and now aren't. We're gonna wreck a bunch of them. Adding to the fact that they lost their job, largely through no fault of their own, now we're gonna treat em like inmates.

You're the liberal?

One thing about the United States. Everyone must be properly punished.
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Old 2nd December 2012, 03:03   #80
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This isn't a stab at Romney or other Republicans, but actually what you propose is what Obama is doing. Click here for details and read the explanation on how a change is being made in certain states from the system you complain about to the system you suggest.

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