Old 27th November 2002, 22:46   #361
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Quote:
Originally posted by Escuchamezz
People here have praised Linux left, right and centre and I think it's great too. But how many of you actually use Linux as your only OS for desktop use? perhaps one or two, or more probably zero. Linux is not ready for prime time for everyday desktop use, and before bashing microsoft os's (which you are all probably using) you all must realise this.
People here have praised potatoes left, right and centre and I think it's great too. But how many of you actually eat potatoes as your only food for daily consumption? perhaps one or two, or more probably zero. Potatoes are not ready for prime time for daily consumption, and before bashing pizzas (which you are all probably eating) you all must realise this.

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Old 27th November 2002, 22:49   #362
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I like potatoes, too.
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Old 28th November 2002, 00:03   #363
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Quote:
Originally posted by virulent
The only valid complaint I've heard is that the game support for Linux is lacking, which I agree with.
i believe you also conceded with the fact that linux is still lacking in the ease of use stakes. whic, let's face it, it is, unless you are already computer-literate. which a lot of people are not, much though we'd like it to be the other.

and linux is great, except the fact i have a rational (possibly irrational, whatever) hatred for monolithic kernels.

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Old 28th November 2002, 00:23   #364
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Quote:
Originally posted by zootm
and linux is great, except the fact i have a rational (possibly irrational, whatever) hatred for monolithic kernels.
Well, there's always a trade-off between performance and process separation.

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Old 28th November 2002, 00:41   #365
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Quote:
Originally posted by griffinn
Well, there's always a trade-off between performance and process separation.
and between 'quick to do' and 'takes all day to reconfigure'.

i'm sure there's a way to do both, in one. load a microkernel and its parts as a single kernel, for one.

bugger it, i'm drunk. bed time.

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Old 28th November 2002, 01:01   #366
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It takes 15-20 minutes to compile a new kernel on decent hardware. 0_o The only reason it might take longer is if you're using a stock kernel like Red Hats or Mandrakes, which are configured to build *every* module. Otherwise, its pretty speedy these days.
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Old 28th November 2002, 12:47   #367
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interesting thread just popped up in GD:
http://forums.winamp.com/showthread....hreadid=115911

it appears that linux is now officially the least secure operating system. i wondered why i heard about more security holes in linux than windows...

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Old 28th November 2002, 15:11   #368
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Quote:
Trojan horse-based attacks on Linux, UNIX, and open-source projects jumped from one in 2001 to two in 2002.
Yeah, those THREE trojans in 2 years really scare the hell out of me.. windows has 6 in 2001 alone. Come on. The slant of that article is obviously MS-biased. They say Linux is more insecure, but really all they're saying is that people can write a virus for Linux. Duh? There just aren't that many, as even their study says.

3 in 2001/02 for Linux, 6 in 2001 alone for Windows.
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Old 28th November 2002, 16:51   #369
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it does have more security flaws too, they're just not normally exploited. but yeah, it's obviously a slanted article (look at the website its from)... i wonder if someone could find the research it was based on? (hint hint)

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Old 30th November 2002, 23:07   #370
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Ah!


I've been dying to contribute more to this thread. What I want to debate is not so much linux vs windows, but the topic itself. [note that I didn't take the time to read the entire thread so I could be repeating stuff]. The last few posts about security invoked a train of thought. Because, what really is the most secure operating system (that isn't limiting or outdated like DOS..)? The answer is, OpenBSD! In fact (but this is a subject of debate), the bsd kernel is said be to be more secure than the Linux kernel. I use NetBSD myself - it is stable, consumes very little system resources (e.g. The kernel is just over 500 KB), and will run any software that runs on Linux. The only thing that Linux has that BSD doesn't is, that new hardware drivers are available for Linux sooner than for BSD.

The only real disadvantage that Linux/BSD have is that they require experience and knowledge to set them up. Of course there are preconfigured distros, but those are never optimized for your computer and therefore you must spend several hours if not days tweaking your system.
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Old 1st December 2002, 14:38   #371
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who uses linux solely on their desktop ?

I do.

much like virulent, although I dont have a girlfriend at the moment though unfortunately

I have been using linux solely on my desktop and server for a few years now. Anything windows users can do i can do. even down to the games.. Im an avid player of rtcw, Which has linux support. Infact id software write the games on *nix and then port to windows.
The weakness for linux has been its games support but nvidia's closed source drivers and now ati releasing closed source drivers for it's radeon 8500 and above is just strengthening the gaming potential of linux. It in most cases at lower res out performs windows because at lower res the performance is heavily dependant n the filesystem which shows linux has a superior filesystem.

As ive mentioned previously my desktop is an amd xp 1800+ oced to 2000+ and aint had windows installed on this.

I did however use to run vmware on this machine and have windows boot in on top of my linux so i could use both simutaenously on my old machine which is now the server. But i dont even do that now. True i miss macromedia flash and dreamweaver but i can live without them flash tends to be crap anyway. better to have a dynamic site with no flash content.

and dreamweaver i can live without quanta does a good enough job. And doesnt have the 280 uk pounds price tag which is all good.

I use debian and i dual boot my other operating system guess what its redhat 8 lol. no windows.

windows free since 1999.
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visit http://counter.li.org/
to see how many people have registered as linux users and you will be amazed.

baafie too true too true. OpenBSD is renowned for its security.
Bsd in all respect is amazingbut they have had a long time to work on it and make it what it is.

The experience and knowledge aint too true now. When i installed redhat 8 i actually found the install easier than windows. It ws pretty damn simple and when it booted it had such a clean interface, i was very impressed, It has the wizards so im sure windows users would feel right at home, using it. It detected all of my hardware bearing in mind i have a cd writer a dvd drive and a tv card picked em all up. installed the bog standard nv driver which u then go to nvidias site and download there specific driver and i had 3d acceleration working it was pretty damn impressive. Then it told me there are updates to the system and I said yeah go for it start updating.. updated my kernel and a host of other applications and thats that, thoroughly impressive. taking into account i started with redhat 5 and that was a nightmare. Tells you how far redhat has taken it. I still prefer debian though

Oh yeah BDA7DD, sorry been busy had a load of work to do for uni but need to reply to this:

i originally stated:
Quote:
Now please try and tell me suse is shit.. U fool.
Quote:
Yet another example of you PUTTING FUCKING WORDS IN MY MOUTH. I never ONCE said that SuSE was "shit" or anything even remotely close to that. Just fuck off until you get some God damn reading comprehension skills.

I wasnt putting words in your mouth.
What i was saying is please try and tell me suse is shit. In other words im waiting for you to say a sentance to that effect. The only reason why i brought up suse beacuase like redhat and mandrake it is also a rpm based distro specifically designed for the desktop and more specifically designed to be user friendly something that u ask for a linux based distro that didnt use the command line. Well thats all i was trying to say.. i guess i wrote it how I would say it in a proper verbal conversation you would know exactly what i was trying to convey to you if i was actually saying it to you. but that gets lost in text , if u still dont understand what i was trying to say fuck it, theres no point trying to explain.
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Old 1st December 2002, 14:45   #372
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Re: who uses linux solely on their desktop ?

Quote:
Originally posted by vslick22
I have been using linux solely on my desktop and server for a few years now. Anything windows users can do i can do. even down to the games.. Im an avid player of rtcw, Which has linux support. Infact id software write the games on *nix and then port to windows.
The weakness for linux has been its games support but nvidia's closed source drivers and now ati releasing closed source drivers for it's radeon 8500 and above is just strengthening the gaming potential of linux. It in most cases at lower res out performs windows because at lower res the performance is heavily dependant n the filesystem which shows linux has a superior filesystem.
wow. it appears you agree with me. i wouldn't have thought that.

i would have to say that NTFS is probably the better filesystem though.

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Old 2nd December 2002, 00:11   #373
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we agree ?

ext2/ext3 buries ntfs in performance if you dont believe ill give you links proving this. Trust anything windows does linux does but better .. and reiserfs is meant to be even more optimised than ext3 as far as journaling is concerned so i would hate to see performance values for that but too developmental to be used straight out.

yes im a very biased towards linux but what do you expect windows is shit.

New shit i have heard about microsoft:
the next version of ms office will use believe it or not xml. Woohoo. Which means they will no longer have strangle hold on the office market considering open office / star office 6 both use xml this will be excellent. which will mean 99% compatibility between the 2 if not more its already about 80 % compatibility

Onto last thing when is this damn linux port of winamp gonna be done.. still waiting, anticipating.. hoping winamp developers dont screw it up . Oi oi mr monkey hump master do u read this shit and giggle, stop reading the forums and finish up the port please

right time to do my apache coursework..
v

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- yeah im a linux nut, yes im biased towards linux, yes i like computers why try and bullshit and act like i dont ??. I hate people that either try to put down someone who uses computers and likes using computers when they blatently couldnt live without their emails and their computer.. so dont be a hypocrite if u believe in something stick up for it dont be a sheep, and just agree cos its the done thing to agree. -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Old 2nd December 2002, 00:23   #374
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Re: we agree ?

Quote:
Originally posted by vslick22
yeah im a linux nut, yes im biased towards linux, yes i like computers why try and bullshit and act like i dont ??. I hate people that either try to put down someone who uses computers and likes using computers when they blatently couldnt live without their emails and their computer.. so dont be a hypocrite if u believe in something stick up for it dont be a sheep, and just agree cos its the done thing to agree.
i like computers too. in fact i study them most of my working, and free, time. i didn't say that you weren't. what i said was that you were unduly biased towards linux - you'd support it, no matter what the argument. that's not a fair argumentative stance. linux doesn't beat windows in every department, the previous god-knows how many pages of this thread should be testament enough to that.

i'll admit to not knowing much about filesystems, but i was talking to someone i know on our university network about them (he's a linux advocate ) and he said that NTFS beat the linux filesystem, but just barely. i would appreciate a link with contrary information, however - as long as it's a fair test, of course

but yes, i like linux too. but i don't use it. go figure.

as for a linux port of winamp, if you want wa3, i suspect you'll have to wait until they've fixed the windows version, and if you want wa2, XMMS is pretty much compatible with almost anything for that now.

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Old 2nd December 2002, 00:36   #375
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Re: we agree ?

Quote:
Originally posted by vslick22
ext2/ext3 buries ntfs in performance if you dont believe ill give you links proving this.
I'd like to see the numbers on that, please. I don't disagree, Im just curious. Also, you have to give some credit to MS for doing the journaling first with NTFS. ext3 is a pretty good system, but its really only extentions onto ext2. I have very limited knowledge of rieserfs, but I've heard a lot of negative things about it from some linux-geek pals of mine. All in all I'm content with ext3, though.

Quote:
Originally posted by vslick22
Trust anything windows does linux does but better
Thats a pretty bold statement, one that I'm not sure that even I'd make. Linux does a lot of things better, yes, but can you really say *all*?

Quote:
Originally posted by vslick22
yes im a very biased towards linux but what do you expect windows is shit.
Being biased isn't a good thing. Understanding the internals of an OS and giving facts as to why one is better than another is perfectly acceptable.. but having a bias means that your ideas are concidered right without proper reason. (according to merriam-webster)

Quote:
Originally posted by vslick22
yeah im a linux nut, yes im biased towards linux, yes i like computers why try and bullshit and act like i dont ?
Its one thing to like linux, its another to be obsessed. The comment "Linux does everything Windows does, but better" is an example. Yeah, Linux is a great OS and I personally love using it.. but you've also got to put some thought into it. Blindly saying that "Linux is the best!" is just as bad as a Windows user saying their Win98 machine is secure.
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Old 2nd December 2002, 00:46   #376
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did a little research. it appears that ext2 is a great deal faster than NTFS when few files are in use (say < 16), and it falters about there, i assume this is when journaling comes into the equation. i was unable to find much benchmarking about ext3, except what virulent just said. reiserFS appears to be widely regarded as horribly buggy.

Quote:
Originally posted by virulent
Its one thing to like linux, its another to be obsessed. The comment "Linux does everything Windows does, but better" is an example. Yeah, Linux is a great OS and I personally love using it.. but you've also got to put some thought into it. Blindly saying that "Linux is the best!" is just as bad as a Windows user saying their Win98 machine is secure.
thank you.

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Old 2nd December 2002, 02:20   #377
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I aint obssessed honest

zootm i was writing a reply to the other thread we were debating on about security or whatever and the area had a power cut i cant be arsed to write it again, it was bollox anyway

but i take it your in the uk ? I go to uni here aswell i study comp final yr we r also on super janet (obviously) im in london studying in wmin an alright computing department. I used to work for ision / energis before starting the degree so yeah I do now my way around computers.

reiserFS appears to be widely regarded as horribly buggy.

yes I have also heard this also, but as i said:
but too developmental to be used straight out

i havent been able to find the link arrgh.. hold up heres one comparing the nvidias drivers a very early revision of the drivers ill add:

http://www.evil3d.net/articles/linux...p/?page=4.php3

and yes
"Linux does everything Windows does, but better"

its an exaggeration but near enough true, linux aint perfect.. but it does really whip the llamas ass .. Weak point in the desktop area is x itself.. X is too dated too bloated, it needs to be either completely redone and made completely modular or scrapped and restarted.
I have ideas on what to improve desktop wise. I aint the best programmer out there but after my uni is done hopefully this year.. and i dont manage to get a job (things look real bad in the job front) im gonna sit down and try and help out.

you have to give some credit to MS for doing the journaling first with NTFS

yes indeed virulent yes indeed, The difference between ext2 and ext3 is journaling. you can convert ext2 fs to ext3 in less than 5 minutes and can do it vice versa. i forget the command but it is that simple.

also zootm u keep going on about linux using a macrokernel (monolithic) vs microkernel

read this:

http://www.dina.dk/~abraham/Linus_vs_Tanenbaum.html

you will find it an extremely good read.

also :

http://www2.educ.umu.se/~bjorn/mhonarc-files/obsolete/

which is the whole thread

lol arguements between the minix and linux camp.. when will these debates about operating systems end
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Old 2nd December 2002, 22:04   #378
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Quote:
Originally posted by vslick22
I aint obssessed honest
reiserFS appears to be widely regarded as horribly buggy.

yes I have also heard this also, but as i said:
but too developmental to be used straight out
<Bevisandbutthead style=on>
Uuhhh.. uhhhhuhhuh.
Uuhhh.. uhhhhuhhuh.
Gee, Bevith, ya think we should, like, maybe have not used that in on those servers?
Heh. Ya! Servers! Bad idea! Ya!
Uuhhh.. uhhhhuhhuh.
Maybe we should go like, fix it, or something.
</Bevisandbutthead>

/me runs out the door screaming.

Hmm... any referances on this? Suse uses ReiserFS by default, and being that I'm not too well versed in the different file systems (and according to what I could find, ext3 and Reiser are about the same, except Reiser is faster), I said, sure, why not?

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Old 2nd December 2002, 22:09   #379
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Quote:
Originally posted by xzxzzx
Hmm... any referances on this? Suse uses ReiserFS by default, and being that I'm not too well versed in the different file systems (and according to what I could find, ext3 and Reiser are about the same, except Reiser is faster), I said, sure, why not?
all i could find is that reiserFS is a better in system in principple, but there seems to be a wide opinion it's not quite "done" yet, if you know what i mean. then again, if it works for you, why the hell not?

as for the beavis and butthead thing, that was a poor impression. try harder, i expect more from you.

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Old 3rd December 2002, 13:16   #380
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lmao
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Old 3rd December 2002, 13:27   #381
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bugger. i should get my sleep patterns sorted out. "principple" indeed...

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Old 3rd December 2002, 15:28   #382
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One thing that occured to me while I was fsck'ing my partitions due the power going out.. again, is something that a lot of people forget about.. fragmentation. Addmittedly I don't know the numbers on ext3 vs NTFS, but it would seem to me that if it was done with a fresh install of Windows it might be a little misleading to the everyday user.

Most people that use Windows will tell you that when they first install it, it runs really nicely, but after a few months is seems to grind to a halt. My mom was complaining about that with her XP system so I sat down and loaded defrag and it was 60-something% fragmented. It took running defrag 3 times and almost all day to get it running well again. Whereas I've yet to see a Linux filesystem get more than 3% fragmented.

I think in a real world test both the Windows and Linux system should be put threw daily use for a few months before a test is done. I have a hunch ext3 would test as much faster. NTFS is a good filesystem, but its vunerable to fragmentation unless you're running defrag every few weeks.
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Old 3rd December 2002, 23:01   #383
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actually, as far as i can tell, NTFS is fantastic for fragmentation - i mean, my drive is in daily use, and is barely fragmented at all. also, the way that NTFS works, fragmentation appears to be less of a performance issue. these are experience tests though, nothing scientific

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Old 6th December 2002, 21:56   #384
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Quote:
Originally posted by zootm
actually, as far as i can tell, NTFS is fantastic for fragmentation - i mean, my drive is in daily use, and is barely fragmented at all. also, the way that NTFS works, fragmentation appears to be less of a performance issue. these are experience tests though, nothing scientific
NTFS is a *lot* better than FAT (the alternative on Windows), but it's not perfect. In Windows NT, MS said you didn't need to defragment NTFS - yeah, BS. But it is definately better. But it can get *seriously* fragmented. As long as you have plenty of free space, NTFS should keep pretty "nonfragmented". Otherwise, it'll get fragmented, sometimes badly.

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Old 6th December 2002, 21:59   #385
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Quote:
Originally posted by virulent
Addmittedly I don't know the numbers on ext3 vs NTFS,
Same Here, but I believe that ext3 is better, from what I understand of how the file systems work, and what I've seen.

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Old 7th December 2002, 13:51   #386
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Quote:
Originally posted by xzxzzx
Same Here, but I believe that ext3 is better, from what I understand of how the file systems work, and what I've seen.
i dunno, i think the proper solution would be ReiserFS (if they ever get the damn thing working right ), i think there's very little to choose between NTFS and ext3 - ext3 is based on an old technology though, whereas NTFS was completely new...

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Old 9th December 2002, 04:13   #387
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Quote:
Originally posted by zootm

i dunno, i think the proper solution would be ReiserFS (if they ever get the damn thing working right ), i think there's very little to choose between NTFS and ext3 - ext3 is based on an old technology though, whereas NTFS was completely new...
Linux is based on a older technology, wheras Windows was completely new... Sometimes 'experiance' wins.

*yawn*

Wow, I wonder if that makes sence. Maybe I'll find out tomorrow, after a good 8 hours of sleep.

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Old 9th December 2002, 05:07   #388
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Quote:
Originally posted by xzxzzx
Wow, I wonder if that makes sence. Maybe I'll find out tomorrow, after a good 8 hours of sleep.
damn you and your sleep! i'm getting a maximum of 2 1/2 hours and falling tonight. Must. Finish. Essay.

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Old 9th December 2002, 18:54   #389
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Quote:
Originally posted by zootm

damn you and your sleep! i'm getting a maximum of 2 1/2 hours and falling tonight. Must. Finish. Essay.
Shit. And I even sleep in and get about 8 and 1/2 hours. And I even went to bed later than I wanted to. Too bad I got to work 40 minutes late... (I stay very late every night, so not too big of a deal...)

Freedom of speech is the basic freedom of humanity. When you've lost that, you've lost everything.
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Old 9th December 2002, 18:55   #390
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i didn't go to bed at all in the end. on the bright side, i handed in a 4700 word computer science essay

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Old 9th December 2002, 19:02   #391
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Quote:
Originally posted by zootm
i didn't go to bed at all in the end. on the bright side, i handed in a 4700 word computer science essay


Well. That's good. Now go play some JK II to wake yourself up. Works for me (I've played it for about 18 hours straight, starting at 8 PM - wasn't even tired when I finally stopped - I swear, better than coffee!).

Freedom of speech is the basic freedom of humanity. When you've lost that, you've lost everything.
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Old 9th December 2002, 19:29   #392
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i find ut2k3 better for that purpose. keeps you nice and sharp

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Old 10th December 2002, 14:45   #393
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Originally posted by zootm
i find ut2k3 better for that purpose. keeps you nice and sharp
Speaking of thread derailing...

Maybe - but it wasn't out yet when I was playing JK II

Freedom of speech is the basic freedom of humanity. When you've lost that, you've lost everything.
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Old 10th December 2002, 14:47   #394
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aha - in that case gta3 is good old-fashioned depraved fun for all the family

jkII is well good too though

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Old 15th December 2002, 02:39   #395
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aha - in that case gta3 is good old-fashioned depraved fun for all the family

jkII is well good too though
See now, I can't bring myself to spend 50 bucks on GTA III - though I could probably get a pireted copy in less than 2 hours. But then again, GTA III also was not yet out (for PC, anyway).

Personally, I like turning on dismemberment (a "cheat" code), and then going through the levels. The most fun can be had that way

Freedom of speech is the basic freedom of humanity. When you've lost that, you've lost everything.
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Old 15th December 2002, 17:15   #396
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hehe, yeah, it's class. i paid for that game, and had to get one of my friends to rip it and send it to me when i rolled my seat over the "play" disk. it is my understanding that the company should offer a replacement copy for a small fee and the original copy. they never got back to me though, so i had to go it on my own...

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Old 16th December 2002, 13:51   #397
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hehe, yeah, it's class. i paid for that game, and had to get one of my friends to rip it and send it to me when i rolled my seat over the "play" disk. it is my understanding that the company should offer a replacement copy for a small fee and the original copy. they never got back to me though, so i had to go it on my own...
Well. I got my *trial* last night of GTA III. It's much better than I expected, though the "version" I got doesn't have the radio (well, it's there, it just doesn't play anything).

I'll have to go and really get it tonight. 30 bucks at Toys-R-us, and 50 at Wal-Mart (when they were actually selling it - can't find it there anymore). I can go for 30, if I would actually get paid! (long story)

As for the disk, you should be more careful! I've never done that... well, there was that one time (StarCraft)... and that other time(EverQuest - not that I was still playing it)... but those were different! Yeah. Different.

Freedom of speech is the basic freedom of humanity. When you've lost that, you've lost everything.
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Old 16th December 2002, 13:54   #398
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i have been playing gta3 properly (as in actually doing all the missions), and it gets damn hard towards the end (i'm 92% completed )
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Old 16th December 2002, 13:56   #399
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i'm on the last mission - it's f*cking impossible. i've been on it for the last 4 months or something (!)

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Old 16th December 2002, 14:11   #400
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i have been playing gta3 properly (as in actually doing all the missions), and it gets damn hard towards the end (i'm 92% completed )
Yeah, I'm playing through the same way - but I'm only through one series of missions (for the first employer) - currently, I'm having a rought time with the "collect the porn" mission (for the Diablos) - damn van, I keep crashing! If I could only use my Banshee

Freedom of speech is the basic freedom of humanity. When you've lost that, you've lost everything.
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