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Old 6th March 2003, 20:56   #281
xzxzzx
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Quote:
Originally posted by liquidmotion
i think whoever got this "inside" info misinterpreted it.

it can't really be as bad as all that.
I don't know what exactly you are referring to, but as I've said before, CALM DOWN, people! There's no way even MS could pull this off, even if they were trying to. Sure, Longhorn will have Palladium-ish stuff, but it's not like "big-bad MS" is going to take over your PC.

Again, CALM DOWN!!!

Sheesh.

If you're going to worried about something, worry about the DMCA.

Freedom of speech is the basic freedom of humanity. When you've lost that, you've lost everything.
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Old 7th March 2003, 16:42   #282
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I suppose there is no point in having an orgasm before 2005 when it is done, fuck buying a PC just to have it...
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Old 7th March 2003, 16:46   #283
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Quote:
Originally posted by xzxzzx
If you're going to worried about something, worry about the DMCA.
Amen.

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Old 8th March 2003, 03:49   #284
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Quote:
Originally posted by xzxzzx
I don't know what exactly you are referring to, but as I've said before, CALM DOWN, people! There's no way even MS could pull this off, even if they were trying to. Sure, Longhorn will have Palladium-ish stuff, but it's not like "big-bad MS" is going to take over your PC.

Again, CALM DOWN!!!

Sheesh.

If you're going to worried about something, worry about the DMCA.
Well I agree witht he DMCA part, it is evil/bad/useless/pro-multinational buisness "copyright" holders. It will end up raping us if we do nothing about such a useless law. Hell even useing a computer is practcaly illegal!


But We have reason to be concered with this "palladium". If only some of that is implemnted, it is still very, very bad for consumers, and content creators.
Sure Microsoft will proboly not fully do what is stated in this forum, but what would stop them? the gov't will see them as sideing with the DMCA, so support it.

I wouldnt want MS going and policing my computer, and they could do it.
It remindes me of the ideas of economic systems to a point. Like a free-market based econmy is simmilar unix/linux and other open source OS's (also some older windows os's could count, but not as much). Wile the mixed economy is like Windows XP (b/ it sends data to MS w/out your knowlage/asking, not a free as 2000 and before). And the athouritarian systems (that have yet to work (provide for the consumer, not the gov't) in this world) would me MS's move with its Palladium idea system.
*sorry, its just I am taking this crazy econ class*

I am not too pleased with anything that MS is trying to do with palladium. All i can see as benifical is it would eradicate viruses and such.

just my crazy tangent
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Old 8th March 2003, 06:39   #285
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Quote:
Originally posted by laz9999
Well I agree witht he DMCA part, it is evil/bad/useless/pro-multinational buisness "copyright" holders. It will end up raping us if we do nothing about such a useless law. Hell even useing a computer is practcaly illegal!
Indeed. However, I'm sure if a case actually winds up being tried under the DMCA, it will be shown that the DMCA is unconstitutional. Just like EULAs - while they are not exactly unconstitutional, they will never hold up in court.

Quote:
Originally posted by laz9999
But We have reason to be concered with this "palladium". If only some of that is implemnted, it is still very, very bad for consumers, and content creators.
Sure Microsoft will proboly not fully do what is stated in this forum, but what would stop them? the gov't will see them as sideing with the DMCA, so support it.
No, we don't. Microsoft could not pull off 1% of what is stated in this forum - the closest they could do is make media files have some sort of stamp on them - and consumers would be pissed off by that, plus, there would be a way around it.

What would stop them? Ha! The people would stop them. Actually, .02 % of the people would stop them. You don't seem to realize how good the "hacker" (which is a misnomer) community is. The RIAA's website is constantly being "hacked" - and they aren’t even getting anywhere.

99% of people are led by .05% of people - how many people in the corporate world make the decisions about what O/S to use?

Again, CALM DOWN. While MS has some pretty shitty ethics and "business practices", they don't really have that much power.

Quote:
Originally posted by laz9999
I wouldnt want MS going and policing my computer, and they could do it.
NO, THEY COULD NOT! You don't seem to realize the power the consumer has. They. Could. Not. People get pissed off when very generalized hardware information gets sent to Microsoft. They would not allow MS to go that far.
Quote:
Originally posted by laz9999
It remindes me of the ideas of economic systems to a point. Like a free-market based econmy is simmilar unix/linux and other open source OS's (also some older windows os's could count, but not as much). Wile the mixed economy is like Windows XP (b/ it sends data to MS w/out your knowlage/asking, not a free as 2000 and before). And the athouritarian systems (that have yet to work (provide for the consumer, not the gov't) in this world) would me MS's move with its Palladium idea system.
*sorry, its just I am taking this crazy econ class*
XP does not send data to MS without your knowledge, unless you are referring to the Reg code check, which informs you that it is checking with MS.

Quote:
Originally posted by laz9999
I am not too pleased with anything that MS is trying to do with palladium. All i can see as benifical is it would eradicate viruses and such.

just my crazy tangent
It is definitely potentially beneficial - for example, there are devices that can be plugged in between your keyboard and PC, which record everything you type. Palladium may allow that data to be encrypted, for example.

Freedom of speech is the basic freedom of humanity. When you've lost that, you've lost everything.
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Old 8th March 2003, 15:16   #286
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Quote:
Originally posted by xzxzzx
What would stop them? Ha! The people would stop them. Actually, .02 % of the people would stop them. You don't seem to realize how good the "hacker" (which is a misnomer) community is. The RIAA's website is constantly being "hacked" - and they aren’t even getting anywhere.
a very small proportion of the "hacker" community are actually any good at all - about 99.9% of it is doing things that any fool could learn to do in an afternoon. there are people in it that are very ingenious with their methods, though, and this is where the hope for the industry lies. these are the people who realised that RSA encryption is not possible to realistically brute-force crack, and decided to analyse problems with the algorithms to make the keys, the people who instead of cracking the RIAA website, just went looking for the electronic submission page, which hadn't had a password applied to it. the important thing to remember is that hackers have a far easier job than security professionals. they can fire away at something all day long and not do anything, whereas the security people work under strict deadlines, and a single mistake (often the mistyping of one letter) can mean that a hacker will eventually break their security.

this is why the alleged palladium security won't work. there's no possible way it won't have at least one vulnerability. and when people find that, they will leap on it.

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Old 9th March 2003, 03:43   #287
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Quote:
Originally posted by zootm
this is why the alleged palladium security won't work. there's no possible way it won't have at least one vulnerability. and when people find that, they will leap on it.
Indeed. "Hacker" != "Script kiddie". The inherent advantage to the defender is overcome when you have 100 attackers for every defender - and the attackers are better.

Of course, the DMCA would make publishing a piece of software to get around Palladium illegal...

But again. The people of the US would not stand for such a disregaurd of thier privacy and what they view as their rights.

Freedom of speech is the basic freedom of humanity. When you've lost that, you've lost everything.
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Old 9th March 2003, 05:18   #288
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Quote:
Originally posted by xzxzzx
The inherent advantage to the defender...
the defenders have no inherent advantages, that's the point i was trying to get across. also, the attackers ain't better, as far as expertise. there are equally exceptional minds at work on both sides. the defenders are at a huge disadvantage in terms of resources, man-(and often will-)power and the simple basis of what they are doing - remember these people are trying to find a way of securing data - the only flawless way of doing that would make it inaccessible to those who need it, and hence be useless.

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Old 9th March 2003, 06:15   #289
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Quote:
Originally posted by zootm
the defenders have no inherent advantages
Actually, they do. It is inherently easier to defend than attack.

With, say, 50 lines of code:

__forceinline void MakeSureRegIsValid( void )
{
// Do stuff here
}

// and then:
MakeSureRegIsValid();
// sprinkled liberally around your program(s)

You have just caused a bunch of work for someone cracking your program (well, depending), significantly more than the amount of work spent doing that.

The defender always has an inherent advantage - what I'm saying is that there are so many attackers that the advantage is easily overwhelmed.

If I invent an arbitrary, intentionally cryptographic language, then it will take much more work to figure it out than to make it.

Quote:
Originally posted by zootm
also, the attackers ain't better, as far as expertise. there are equally exceptional minds at work on both sides.
Ahh, maybe.
Quote:
Originally posted by zootm
... a way of securing data - the only flawless way of doing that would make it inaccessible to those who need it, and hence be useless.
Now that is true.

Freedom of speech is the basic freedom of humanity. When you've lost that, you've lost everything.
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Old 9th March 2003, 06:32   #290
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Quote:
Originally posted by xzxzzx
[B]Actually, they do. It is inherently easier to defend than attack.

...code blob with random authenticity checks...

You have just caused a bunch of work for someone cracking your program (well, depending), significantly more than the amount of work spent doing that.
first thing i wrote:
no, they don't. once they write that code, it's set in stone. it's just a matter of finding it, which after you've found one occurence of is in general child's play to get the rest. i do see your point, but you're still essentially talking about a brute-force method which will always work, given an amount of resources that is easily found in these communities. it's easier to write defending code than to find it, but it's only easy to write because there are only so many ways that it can be done, almost all of which are easily circumvented. finding that "needle in a haystack" authenticity code is easier when there's hundreds of people looking for it (the community), they have metal detectors (there are tools to help with this) and the needle every so often emits a noise (figure out what it's accessing, you can see right where from, without too much trouble).

my goodness me, that was an elaborate analogy

quite possibly the same thing again, but put far better:
it's easier to write defending code. but far, far harder to defend, which is the point. your code block just makes the wall holding the people out higher. with enough people, the wall will still fall, especially since it's not actually defended in any other way than just being a wall. it's not like file defence can call for help.

i think i like that poor analogy better :P

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Old 12th March 2003, 11:29   #291
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You can get your hackers. If this was to happen hackers wouldnt do the job. We'd have to start blowing shit up. Period.
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Old 12th March 2003, 20:23   #292
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Quote:
Originally posted by zootm
first thing i wrote:
no, they don't. once they write that code, it's set in stone. it's just a matter of finding it, which after you've found one occurence of is in general child's play to get the rest. i do see your point, but you're still essentially talking about a brute-force method which will always work, given an amount of resources that is easily found in these communities. it's easier to write defending code than to find it, but it's only easy to write because there are only so many ways that it can be done, almost all of which are easily circumvented. finding that "needle in a haystack" authenticity code is easier when there's hundreds of people looking for it (the community), they have metal detectors (there are tools to help with this) and the needle every so often emits a noise (figure out what it's accessing, you can see right where from, without too much trouble).

my goodness me, that was an elaborate analogy

quite possibly the same thing again, but put far better:
it's easier to write defending code. but far, far harder to defend, which is the point. your code block just makes the wall holding the people out higher. with enough people, the wall will still fall, especially since it's not actually defended in any other way than just being a wall. it's not like file defence can call for help.

i think i like that poor analogy better :P
Right. In this case, defending is somewhat difficult. But 1 defender can defend against 1000 attackers, in this case, at least for a while.

The point is that the defender has the inherent advantage that all defenders have - they know the territory.

Secondly, we are not referring to a needle in a haystack, when we are referring to hacking an O/S. Windows has well over 10,000,000 lines of code, or so I've heard. More like finding a drop in the ocean.

Most defenders do not take advantage of the actual things necessary to defend a piece of software. Yes, it's still a wall, but it can be a moving, electrified, barbed, with automatic machine guns.

For instance:

Polymorphic software, encryption, compression, cross-checking, redundancy, hardware based solutions, "self-destruction", registration codes being used as encryption keys, or even containing critical code themselves, online-based reliance, ... (shall I go on?)

For example, if the authentication code is public-key encrypted, and contains in that encrypted stream, code which the software requires to work, AND the processor contains (in the core) the private key to unencrypt it, then the *only* solution is to crack the key. 4096 bit keys would take several thousand years to crack, at this point.

HOWEVER, this wouldn't be acceptable to the community. Someone with access to those keys would get a hold of them, and release them.

THAT is my point. THAT, and ONLY that will stop MS, from it's supposed evil ways.

It may only be a wall, but that wall reaches the sky - the people on the other side will unlock the door .

As for "blowing shit up" - again CALM DOWN, GOD DAMN IT!

It. is. NOT. going. to. happen.

Freedom of speech is the basic freedom of humanity. When you've lost that, you've lost everything.
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Old 15th January 2004, 07:27   #293
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This thread changed my life!

I wanted to find up this thread and take a look at it cause it was this thread that got me started with Linux. In fact the very night that I enountered this thread was the night that I emailed Microsoft and told them that I was switching to Linux... thank God I had just been fired from my job cause it gave me time to follow through on it.

Let me break it down for you: if you love computers, Linux is a great adventure; If you don't love computers, Linux is a pain in the ass. Until I installed Linux, I had no idea how much I truly love computers. When I first encontered this thread, I had never installed an operating system, and now I have installed several-- including 4 that are installed on this computer right now, over two hard drives. This is not to say that I am a genius... all I have done is basic computer literacy, like learning to read... but isn't learning to read a wonderful thing?

And to think that I owe it all to Palladium!
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Old 15th January 2004, 07:54   #294
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Good to hear, spiderbaby1958!

Anyway, rereading the last few posts, I realize that zootm and I were agreeing and yet arguing...

"THAT'S WRONG, I AGREE, ASSHOLE"!



Intresting...

Freedom of speech is the basic freedom of humanity. When you've lost that, you've lost everything.
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Old 15th January 2004, 11:39   #295
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Funny, i switched to Linux after reading a paladium article aswell.
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Old 15th January 2004, 14:43   #296
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Quote:
Originally posted by xzxzzx Anyway, rereading the last few posts, I realize that zootm and I were agreeing and yet arguing...
not the first time you and i have done this. that's why i never replied again, incidentally

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Old 15th January 2004, 17:56   #297
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Quote:
Originally posted by zootm
not the first time you and i have done this. that's why i never replied again, incidentally
I consider it a mark of good argumentative skill.

Freedom of speech is the basic freedom of humanity. When you've lost that, you've lost everything.
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Old 16th January 2004, 00:21   #298
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any news on when this is to be released? i plan to buy as much hardware as i can now before this crap happens. or maybe i'll switch to linux.

Never underestimate the bandwidth of a station wagon full of tapes hurtling down the highway.
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Old 16th January 2004, 00:38   #299
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Um. No. It's not real, damn it. I mean, it is, but it isn't.

To answer your question:
The next version of Windows isn't coming until 2005, so no earlier than 2005.

Freedom of speech is the basic freedom of humanity. When you've lost that, you've lost everything.
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Old 18th January 2004, 16:04   #300
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Quote:
Originally posted by k_rock923
any news on when this is to be released? i plan to buy as much hardware as i can now before this crap happens. or maybe i'll switch to linux.
They no longer call it Palladium, by the way... they call it the Trusted computer platform or something like that. I think that I read that Windows Server 2003 was the first compatible release.

I know of a few articles, I'll see what I can dig up and post here when I get the chance.

I can't tell anyone to assume the challenges and frustrations of learning Linux; I can only tell you that I went into knowing nothing about computers, I had bad luck with hardware and made stupid mistakes at every turn, I have done nothing right without doing it wrong first, often more than once-- and I absolutely love it.
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Old 18th January 2004, 19:46   #301
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TCPA ("Trusted Computing Platform Alliance")

Freedom of speech is the basic freedom of humanity. When you've lost that, you've lost everything.
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Old 19th January 2004, 01:58   #302
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Me with my 1997 IBM and Archaic operating system are happy.

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Old 19th January 2004, 15:48   #303
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Damn you all. Maybe if I start talking in the third person, you'll listen to me.

xzxzzx knows that it's far too early to make any fuss as there are not ever finished specs.

Freedom of speech is the basic freedom of humanity. When you've lost that, you've lost everything.
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Old 10th February 2005, 00:17   #304
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Quote:
Originally posted by spiderbaby1958
Lately, I've been thinking of dabbling in Linux, but now I'm planning on making Mandrake Linux my primary OS, the sooner the better.
That was August 2002. Every once in a while, I like to revisit this moment, which changed my life. This was the thread that got me into Linux. It didn't turn out the way I expected, however, cause insted of Mandrake I'm running Debian... and Debian is delicious!
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Old 10th February 2005, 00:51   #305
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Yea, Linux has made my life a LOT easier.

Never underestimate the bandwidth of a station wagon full of tapes hurtling down the highway.
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Old 10th February 2005, 03:22   #306
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I'm just fine and dandy with XP. I think some of this is BS. Plus, this forum came out, what 3 years ago? Longhorn I think is due out next year or 2007? I think we would all know more about it by now.

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Old 10th February 2005, 03:44   #307
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linux has made my life worse
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Old 10th February 2005, 03:58   #308
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Macs used to have that effect on me (making my life worse.)
Of course, that was over ten years ago.
I have never liked them since.

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Old 10th February 2005, 04:02   #309
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why is this thread still alive....

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Old 10th February 2005, 05:03   #310
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Quote:
Originally posted by mikeflca
why is this thread still alive....
Sorry, I brought it back out of nostalgia. Like I said, it changed my life. The post that I quoted earlier is the moment when I chose the road less travelled... and that has made all the difference.

Yeah, you don't hear a lot about Palladium (or whatever they're calling it) these days. Do you think it kind of blew over, like that metric system scare back in the seventies?

My take is that if there was no Linux, MS would have rammed Palladium, and anything else it wanted down our throats by now.

Overall, I'm not sure that I'd say that Linux has made my life "easier"... just a lot more interesting. If not for Linux, I probably still would be afraid to install my own operating system.

Linux is a pain in the ass to learn... but once you've learned it, it is a joy to run, and I have reached the point where it is easier than Windows. Master a few simple line commands, and suddenly the most tedious gui functions become a hell of alot faster and more efficient. The lst two and a half years have been a struggle, but the next twenty-five years look a whole not more interesting and empowering.
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Old 14th February 2005, 19:01   #311
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Quote:
Originally posted by spiderbaby1958
Linux is a pain in the ass to learn... but once you've learned it, it is a joy to run, and I have reached the point where it is easier than Windows. Master a few simple line commands, and suddenly the most tedious gui functions become a hell of alot faster and more efficient. The lst two and a half years have been a struggle, but the next twenty-five years look a whole not more interesting and empowering.
Indeed. I'm running a linux server now (Gentoo... stop laughing, it's a perfectly valid distro... stop it), and being able to do something like:
code:
find /var/qmail/queue/mess/ -exec grep -q "^Subject: blah" {} \; -print

to find a message in qmail's queue with a subject of "blah" is fucking great. It's so much faster than using a GUI tool, if you even could get a GUI tool to do it.

Freedom of speech is the basic freedom of humanity. When you've lost that, you've lost everything.
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Old 15th February 2005, 17:57   #312
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Quote:
Originally posted by spiderbaby1958
Overall, I'm not sure that I'd say that Linux has made my life "easier"... just a lot more interesting. If not for Linux, I probably still would be afraid to install my own operating system.

Linux is a pain in the ass to learn...

Reminds me of the time I tried to convince a customer that a bug in my program was a 'feature'. Hahahahahahahaha!

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Old 17th February 2005, 00:46   #313
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So then, xzxzzx, what have we learned since late 2002?
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Old 21st February 2005, 16:05   #314
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Originally posted by CaboWaboAddict
Reminds me of the time I tried to convince a customer that a bug in my program was a 'feature'. Hahahahahahahaha!
Hey, I'm not making this up. With computers, easy to learn is always a pain in the ass to run. It's always been that way, since the days of the Commodore 64. The simpler a gui interface is, the less flexible and powerful, and the more clicking you have to do to accomplish a task. When you know how to use the command line, you can cut through a lot of gui "red tape".
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Old 21st February 2005, 18:31   #315
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Originally posted by Phyltre
So then, xzxzzx, what have we learned since late 2002?
I don't know, I learned a bunch of crap related to programming, a lot of unix stuff, blah blah blah. What do you mean?

Freedom of speech is the basic freedom of humanity. When you've lost that, you've lost everything.
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Old 21st February 2005, 18:57   #316
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I mean about whatever Palladium turned into.
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Old 21st February 2005, 21:27   #317
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Quote:
Originally posted by spiderbaby1958
Hey, I'm not making this up. With computers, easy to learn is always a pain in the ass to run. It's always been that way, since the days of the Commodore 64. The simpler a gui interface is, the less flexible and powerful, and the more clicking you have to do to accomplish a task. When you know how to use the command line, you can cut through a lot of gui "red tape".
Have you ever tried to code a flexible but simple GUI? Its a pain in the ass. I wasn't pokeing fun at what you said. I agree wholeheartedly that in many cases a GUI makes it more cumbersome or impossible to do the advanced stuff that is so simple in a command line environment. But the GUI was designed originally for the masses, so they would not have to learn all of those commands.

One system that was a dream to write code for - that I'm sad to have seen die - was the Amiga.

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Old 21st February 2005, 22:35   #318
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No, we don't. Microsoft could not pull off 1% of what is stated in this forum - the closest they could do is make media files have some sort of stamp on them - and consumers would be pissed off by that, plus, there would be a way around it.
MS can do pretty much anything it wants since there is no government entity that has been powerful enough to stop the monster it is. MS has more in the bank than our entire country is in debt for.

And considering how easy it would be to implement this using Automatic Updates should scare the fuck out of anyone running an MS system.

How to stop it? Start using Linux now and stop buying anything sold by Microsoft or it's subsidiaries. Take away their income and you take away their power. With control of 90+ % of the PC market what choice do we have right now. You either use Windows or are part of the less than 10 % who use something else.

Face it, you have no choice. Learn linux or keep funding the fucking beast.

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Old 22nd February 2005, 17:26   #319
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Quote:
Originally posted by MegaRock
MS can do pretty much anything it wants since there is no government entity that has been powerful enough to stop the monster it is. MS has more in the bank than our entire country is in debt for.
7.7 trillion? Microsoft has more than 7.7 trillion in the bank? In the EU, Microsoft has been forced to remove WMP from its O/S.

Microsoft may be a monster, but it's one on moral grounds far more than legal ones.

Quote:
Originally posted by MegaRock
And considering how easy it would be to implement this using Automatic Updates should scare the fuck out of anyone running an MS system.
Implement what? Palladium? You need a whole damn hardware overhaul for that. Media files with stamps? That's either been around or requires a hardware update too.

Freedom of speech is the basic freedom of humanity. When you've lost that, you've lost everything.
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Old 1st March 2005, 00:23   #320
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TCPA is interesting - a lot of people think it's a lot worse than it is. It's one of those technologies which can be used for evil, but has huge potential for securing systems too.

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