Old 14th April 2007, 00:49   #1
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Are the White House E-mails Really Lost?

April 13, 2007 - The White House had bad news this week for Democrats seeking official government e-mails that may include information about the firing of eight U.S. attorneys. Such messages, including missives from senior adviser Karl Rove, may have been lost, the Bush administration claimed, because they were sent through private accounts rather than the official government e-mail system. A White House spokesman says that the aides used private accounts to avoid violating a law barring government officials from doing political business using government resources; congressional Democrats charge that the staffers may have deliberately used Republican National Committee accounts to avoid normal review.....

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18097374/site/newsweek/
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Old 14th April 2007, 01:44   #2
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What I have trouble figuring out is that even if this allegation is proven, it's not a crime.

Presidents can hire and fire US attorneys at whim. Clinton fired the whole staff.

Unless they can find a prosecution that was deliberately tampered with......which they haven't.

The allegation is that the US attorneys were pursuing republicans more than democrats and that's why they got fired.

I think showing bias is a very good reason to fire US attorneys.

With all the screaming "Impeach Bush", no criminal activity has been proven. Clinton can't say that.

If this current witchhunt proves successful, what did they prove?. Some gvt employees used computers in an unauthorized manner?. Big deal.

If they prove all of this, they proved some misdemeanors.

You'd think the democrats proved Bush blew up the trade center, with the zeal they are exploring this incident of minor misconduct, if any exists at all.
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Old 14th April 2007, 02:13   #3
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I don't know if this has crossed you mind or not, but think of a basketball game.
Lots of times, coaches will complain if their team is getting a lot more fouls called on them than the other team. However VERY RARELY DOES IT CROSS THEIR MINDS THAT IT IS ENTIRELY POSSIBLE THAT THEIR TEAM MAY ACTUALLY BE COMMITTING MANY MORE FOULS THAN THE OTHER.

Seriously, you are the most brainwashed person I have ever met. Think about it.

Please don't respond with some worn out snap about how evil liberals have ensnared me with their net. You could not be more wrong.
just as a refresher:
I am and have been for as long as I can remember, libertarian. If I had only two options to pick between, I would without a doubt, favor being Republican over Dem.
However, I believe the current state of the Republican party is appallingly corrupt.

How many neocon convictions does it take to turn on your light bulb? Without a doubt, you would need every single neocon convicted of everything, to admit their "inadequacies", but if their's a rumor that a Democrat stepped in dogshit, you call for their heads.

You have absolutely no strand of a rational decision making process.
You are totally, and completely irrationally biased.
Your opinion is entirely worthless.


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Old 14th April 2007, 03:02   #4
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Quote:
Originally posted by shakey_snake
I believe the current state of the Republican party is appallingly corrupt.
Compared to what?. I don't see anyone bringing allegations of assassination like Vince Foster. I haven't seen the president commit proven perjury. I haven't seen him give missile technology to the chinese. I haven't seen him accept foreign campaign contributions from Singapore and then using an environmental excuse to destroy coal mining in Utah. Bush's attorney general didn't burn a bunch of children to death in a school bus, or shoot Randy Weavers baby. Maybe you don't remember that the BATF didn't find any illegal weapons, which was allegedly why they did these raids?.

Whitewater, Hillaries activities at the Rose law firm..... we could keep going.

It's very fortunate that the Clintons had Janet Reno around to save their bacon.

Crooked, fuck me.....

There is no evidence that GB personally has committed a crime of any kind. Not even any reasonable allegations. Thats gotta be a first in american politics. Except maybe Carter, who was incompetent too.

If you believed Michael Moore or Alex Jones, shouldn't we all be getting rounded up and sent to a FEMA camp by now?.

????

"I hate Bush" and "Bush is Hitler" aside. Bush isn't up to the task at hand, but that's not a reason to think the democrats would do any better, despite their cries that Bush is a facist.

After seeing the bigoted legislation that came out of the house of representatives last year as regards illegal aliens, who are the facists?.

Last edited by rockouthippie; 14th April 2007 at 03:44.
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Old 14th April 2007, 03:42   #5
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Quote:
Originally posted by rockouthippie
Compared to what?
Obviously comparative logic will fail us here. So why bother bringing it up?

If both parties are admittedly crooked, why stop someone from rounding up any of them?


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Old 14th April 2007, 03:45   #6
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Because I was alive during Nixon. The coverup of a petty burglary just about destroyed the country. One of the most popular and effective presidents the US ever had, brought down by covering up a petty burglary.

Like anything that anyone discovered at Elsbergs office would have changed the outcome of the landslide against George McGovern.

Last edited by rockouthippie; 14th April 2007 at 04:04.
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Old 14th April 2007, 04:00   #7
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Yet, a not-so-pristine politician was (effectively) removed from office.

That would be an example of the system working, would it not?


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Old 14th April 2007, 04:11   #8
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I don't think so. I think it's a sign of the government self destructing. Nobody wants that. It would make a hell of a mess.

When was the last time you heard anyone really talking about important issues?. The news is who is getting indicted for what.

This is why we will lose the Iraq war. Both sides have a full time job trying to prove who is dirtier. Actually running the government and serving the public trust hasn't been the way an election gets won in a long time.

Frankly, I find the public hatred of Bush and of Clinton before him to be really scary. Neither of these guys really deserves the depth of hatred they found in the american public.

I think the american public would make good choices for proper balance of our lives. What's happened is that we've gone batshit to one side or the other screaming hate.
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Old 14th April 2007, 04:17   #9
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Quote:
Originally posted by rockouthippie
I don't think so. I think it's a sign of the government self destructing. Nobody wants that. It would make a hell of a mess.
um... I believe that is the very definition of our government working.

Quote:
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, — That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.
Am I somehow wrong here?

It would be a sign of the destruction of a corruption, but obviously, corruption and government are not ideally though to be synonymous.


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Old 14th April 2007, 04:24   #10
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Quote:
Originally posted by shakey_snake
um... I believe that is the definition of our government working.


Am I somehow wrong here?

It would be a sign of the destruction of a corrupt party, but obviously, party and government are not synonymous.
Out of the frying pan into the fire?. Do you really think things would really be better if Gore had been elected?.

When you put a rat in a maze with only one exit, doesn't the black rat and the white rat find the same hole?.

War is screwed because war is screwed. If Gore had won, we would still be in Iraq and we would still be screwed.

This is the same bullshit I was listening to in the 70s, while I watched guys a little older than me come home in body bags.

Bickering, bitching while 20,000 men died in Asia. It took Nixon to actually stop it.

Destroy one corrupt party, and the other one would gain unlimited power. Maybe the best we can do is to keep them backbiting over petty stuff.
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Old 14th April 2007, 04:32   #11
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Quote:
Originally posted by rockouthippie
Out of the frying pan into the fire?. Do you really think things would really be better if Gore had been elected?.

When you put a rat in a maze with only one exit, doesn't the black rat and the white rat find the same hole?.

War is screwed because war is screwed. If Gore had won, we would still be in Iraq and we would still be screwed.
This is the post where you run out of things to say and try to accociate me with some party, that's contrary to yours.
This you cannot do. (but you try to very often)
Of course, we were not even talking about who was elected as president in 2000, so your post is completely irrelevant.

----------------------
back on topic here:
Why do you continue to stick up for these crooks in the white house?

[edit: you seem to have edited]
Quote:
This is the same bullshit I was listening to in the 70s, while I watched guys a little older than me come home in body bags.
Are you calling the Declaration of Independence bullshit?

[edit: you seem to have edited again. Perhaps you could refrain from posting until you've completed your thought? It's rather annoying.]
Quote:
Destroy one corrupt party, and the other one would gain unlimited power. Maybe the best we can do is to keep them backbiting over petty stuff.
Why not just take out corruption where ever we see it? Then we wouldn't have to worry about some unlimited party.
what we would see is an alternating of gradually less corrupt parties. That'd be best for everyone, right?

It does make sense to you that the party in power would be more visibly corrupt than the minority party, correct?
Thus it does make sense as to why these attorneys were targeting more Republicans at the moment.

You seem awfully willing to settle for second best, in this discusion.


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Last edited by shakey_snake; 14th April 2007 at 04:51.
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Old 14th April 2007, 04:44   #12
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Quote:
Originally posted by shakey_snake
This is the post where you run out of things to say and try to accociate me with some party, that's contrary to yours.
This you cannot do. (but you try to very often)
Of course, we were not even talking about who was elected as president in 2000, so your post is completely irrelevant.

----------------------
back on topic here:
Why do you continue to stick up for these crooks in the white house?

[edit: you seem to have edited]
Are you calling the Declaration of Independence bullshit?
Using the Declaration of Independence as an argument for your point is bullshit.

Individuals on both sides of the aisle have committed crimes, but we are hardly finding a government that is so oppressive that we need to take up arms against it.

The purpose here is not a fight for liberty, it's a political struggle by means of broad sweeping witch hunts, left and right propaganda, exaggerations and lies.

The commodity is american hatred. Can I make the american public hate the other guy enough to vote for me?.

Quote:
Why do you continue to stick up for these crooks in the white house?
Prove it. A zillion democrats jumped all over this and the only thing that gets anywhere near the whitehouse is a petty misuse of gvt computers and firing US attorneys that Bush had every right to fire?.

If they are really crooks. Prove it. All I hear so far is a lot of innuendo and bald faced lies. A lot of people believe Michael Moores movie. Investigate for yourself. There isn't a damn true thing in it.

Bush's crimes?. No stem cell research. A tax break for the middle and upper middle class, and bankruptcy is a little harder and a war that has been waiting for us for a couple decades. BFD. Not Hitler. Not facism. Not even a cut in the entitlements of the welfare state.

I think you confuse Bush with the far right. If he is, you'd never know it by what he's done.

I think he's just about the other side of Bill Clinton, who was also a moderate.

Frankly, I wish either of them had been able to find some way to show real leadership.

I would shake the hand of either man, and thank him for their service to the country because basically despite bitching and moaning, things could be a hell of a lot worse.

Life as we know it has not ended and if we ignore all this media and political BS, we can screw the pooch like we always have. It'll give us time to save up some spit for the soldiers like it did in Vietnam, while we devote our national energy to stopping name calling..... unilaterally?.

Are we in junior high?. Don't smoke, wear your safety belt and clean underwear.... baaaa sheep baaaa..... and don't call people names.... unless they are fat, smoke drink or are an illegal alien... Of course, you still can't call the mexicans names, but you can round up 12 million of them and ship them off to starve at home. Let's make it a felony for clergy to help them too.....

So says the bastion of liberal freedom in our house of representatives?.

Freedom of speech is really good too, as long as you're not a conservative talk show host that makes an ass out of himself.

Last edited by rockouthippie; 14th April 2007 at 05:46.
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Old 14th April 2007, 14:54   #13
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Where is Windude when you need him?
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Old 14th April 2007, 17:13   #14
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This is far too tame for Windude

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Old 15th April 2007, 00:48   #15
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I'm still gonna say, if you believe Bush is a crook, hitler, evil, tyrannical and racist.... PROVE IT.

PROVE Cheney blew up the trade center. PROVE Bush policies are going to result in a loss of civil liberties.

In every way, american life is basically the same as when Clinton was running this.

This president has gotten a raw deal. I think he's about inept, but the hatred that the liberal democrats have instilled in the masses with lies and innuendo and a completely contrived Michael Moore movie is absolutely unfair.

I think it's sickening that Bush has to take this derision, when he only deserves concern that this war is a mess. Show me one that wasn't.

I think Bush is an average american president, who has had to deal with extraordinary circumstances.

I didn't like the witch hunt against Clinton, and I don't like this one.

Maybe I'm just not cynical enough to think we elect total douche bags to the White House. Clinton or Bush. Whether we believe in what these guys think or not, I don't think we can accuse them of acting in bad faith.

What both of these guys got is a team of mudslingers following them around trying to find misconduct, no matter how small.

In neither case did anyone find much.
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Old 15th April 2007, 02:33   #16
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You're quite mad, you know. Shakey dude powned you in his first post with the two lines below and should have ignored you ever since.

You have absolutely no strand of a rational decision making process.
You are totally, and completely irrationally biased.
Your opinion is entirely worthless.


When was the last time you heard anyone really talking about important issues?. The news is who is getting indicted for what.<<<

Uh, the last time I listend to either John Edwards or Barack Obama give a speech. Those two guys are consistently attempting to create a dialog about improving our nation and talking about improving the economy (I would think you would like that as you're always whining about how the goverment made your business fail, etc...), health care, security for our borders and reinstating our moral presence in the world, instead of lamely playing the, "hey, you're worse, you did it first, Clinton , Clinton , look, it's Bill Clinton" kindergarten level argument of you right wing radio bloviater clones.

"Which is worse, ignorance or indifference?"

"I don't know, and I don't care."
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Old 15th April 2007, 02:47   #17
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Quote:
Originally posted by watadoo
Uh, the last time I listend to either John Edwards or Barack Obama give a speech.
I wasn't talking at all about the political jargon of Obama or Edwards. If I was, I'd point out that neither of these guys has anything to offer, except that we should do something different. What that is exactly, they don't have a clue about.

At least when they were mudslinging Clinton, they could prove some of it.

The democrats have got every retard in the country screaming "Bush is Hitler", when there is absolutely no rational argument that anything like that is true.

You have taken the typical tact that since I don't think Bush is Hitler that I must be ill informed or insane.

That's typical. Geez, we don't need to prove Bush is Hitler, it's "common knowledge". I guess when you say things enough, they must somehow be true
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Old 17th April 2007, 13:18   #18
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Quote:
Originally posted by rockouthippie
I wasn't talking at all about the political jargon of Obama or Edwards. If I was, I'd point out that neither of these guys has anything to offer, except that we should do something different. What that is exactly, they don't have a clue about.
You can't convince me based on that post that you've ever listened to one of their speeches or read something they've written. You may disagree with their solutions to health care or balancing the taxation levels in this country, or their global diplomacy positions (fine, that is your right), but to say neither has anything to offer other than to say we should do something differently means you are either deliberately lying to try and marginalize them and obfuscate their message, or are so tone deaf from listening to right wing talking points to have become completely irrelevant to any rational discussion.

"Which is worse, ignorance or indifference?"

"I don't know, and I don't care."
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Old 18th April 2007, 14:37   #19
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Is all you have to do is go to Obamas web site and read it. I have. He is a left wing party man, right down to his shoelaces.

As a matter of fact, he isn't interesting at all. If you had a cookie cutter that stamped out liberals. Obama would just be another cookie.
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Old 18th April 2007, 14:49   #20
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Are you for real?
Sometimes, I just sit back, grin and think.....this guy's just fucking with us.
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Old 18th April 2007, 14:51   #21
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OK. Tell me where he leaves party lines for anything?. I'll give him the fact that he opposed this war. That isn't enough to make him president.

I think he's un-electable. You might be able to get some liberals to vote for him, but remember half of this country fired the democrats for being just like him.

He's got a lot of other problems too. I personally don't think any of them are important, but the voters will.

Look. To win elections and keep power, the democrats are going to have to find a president that gets more than 51% of the vote. Giving us basically the same candidate they did before, in a different wrapper, isn't gonna fly.

And I'll tell ya. If Bush, and it's remotely possible, makes progress in Iraq by the next election.... you'll only hear crickets down at democrat HQ.

They democrats are in power on one issue. The war. The rest of the issues haven't changed and nobodys attitude about those issues has changed.

So the democrats will change and move a little toward moderacy or they will eventually be toast again. Giving Pelosi a gag ball would be a good political move for the democrats about now.

It's why Bush is president. He was more moderate than the far right. It's also why Hillary is trying to appear moderate now. That'll be a trick. Like a lot of americans, I remember that she had to lose her headband and quit screaming to be first lady.

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Old 18th April 2007, 17:17   #22
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How is talking about tax reform (taxing the fucking obscenely rich mf's equally to us working class stiffs, and taxing the corporations period), providing health care for the nearly 50 million people who don't have any and perhaps lowering the bite on our own health care monthly costs in the meantime, spending money on education to pay teachers well and provide, like actual books and supplies (one god damn week of this surreal Iraq war funding could fund our schools for a year) NOT speaking to the issues facing our country. You may disagree with the postions taken but at least the Dems are talking about them, unlike your righties which only talk about gay marriage, stem cell research, and war. --> Bushies talk only of war, only of Iraq, a total one note symphony which in true Rushannitysavagereilly manner you project on to the Democratic parry.

And of course there is no debate. You side paints any dissent as "socialst/marxist" claptrap. well, bubba, you're in the tiny minority in case you haven't peeked outside your bubble lately. You are a proud member of the 25% righty wingnut base. America has and is swinging back to rationality after being hoodwinked by your neocon masters for the last 6+ years. Deal with it. You can throw out all the names and labels you want but you're still losing.

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Old 18th April 2007, 19:51   #23
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OK watadoo. Tax John Kerry. Your katsup will just go up.

When they pay, they just pass it along to us as a cost of doing business, either by cutting wages or raising prices.

When anyone gets taxed, EVERYBODY pays.

If it gets too nasty and unmanageable then only very, very rich people can do business.

It's what's happening now. Wages have been stagnant in this country for years. This is why.

People that made a living wage, now work for Walmart. It's not because of free market pressures. It's because you need a lot of money to deal with all the government bullshit.

Gone are the days, when I could sit at my dining room table and make some jobs. I paid really well too. I also treated my people a hell of a lot better than current employers.

But the taxpayers decided that guys like me couldn't run around creating prosperity without regulation and the "powers that be" sent your job to China because it was too expensive to hire you anymore. It's not because americans couldn't hold their own in productivity. It's because of taxes and regulations. China doesn't have a minimum rice law or any worker protection at all.

Oh well. It was nice while it lasted.

It's really what happened in the Great Depression. Workers voted themselves benefits until it broke the companies they were working for.

The very, very rich made a fortune. Everyone else got the shaft. Then the New Deal stepped in to slave everyone with the WPA.

You have been taught that the New Deal was a good deal. My grandpa didn't think so. He stayed on the farm and damn near starved.

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Old 18th April 2007, 21:22   #24
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Why is it that I never make it past the first dozen or so words of your posts?
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Old 18th April 2007, 21:52   #25
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@RoH:
Quote:
Originally posted by Fickle
Are you just arguing because you can't back down?


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Old 18th April 2007, 22:11   #26
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I'll use one sentence. Tax the rich, tax anyone, and EVERYBODY pays.
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Old 18th April 2007, 23:04   #27
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That's two sentences.
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Old 18th April 2007, 23:42   #28
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BRAINDEAD


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Old 19th April 2007, 03:42   #29
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OK, I give up.

When you're my age, you'll know the difference between the liberal propaganda you keep sucking up and the truth.

I only have half as long to live in a broke communist country as you do.
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Old 19th April 2007, 05:37   #30
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Yes. Because everyone who disagrees with you is somehow tied to, or naively supporting communists.



I give up; you are a complete retard.
Terri Schiavo has more sentience.


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Old 19th April 2007, 07:43   #31
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OK, Private Pyle, let me know how all this works out for ya....
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