Live voiceovers.

thinktink · 13th June 2010, 23:02

I've been seeing a lot of questions on the forums lately on the topic of live voice over music. The SHOUTcast DSP works just fine for basic voice-over-music functionality but I found it a bit restrictive and not containing all the features that I wanted. That is the reason why I developed LiveWire, and is no longer in beta. The plugin does have some major caveats though:

For seamless operation all the music in the playlist has to be at the same bitrate, samplerate, and number of channels (mono/stereo/others).
It has to open the input device at the same rate as the currently playing song. Designing the plugin this way reduces the amount of pre-processing overhead to match audio buffers of differing formats, thereby severely reducing the amount of potential heavy CPU and memory usage needed in such a task.
For use with the SHOUTcast DSP you have to use a DSP stacker/chain plugin, and LiveWire must be arranged before or above the SHOUTcast DSP in the DSP chain.
There is a bit of a delay between what is sent to the DSP and what is outputted by it. This is due to the fact that buffering is required for proper operation.

The features you will find in this plugin that I believed were missing in the mixing function of the SHOUTcast DSP:

The ability to actively select any valid input/source device without digging through the Windows control panels and then having to restart Winamp. This includes, but is not limited to, USB headsets, other audio cards, and virtual audio devices like Virtual Audio Cable.
The fact that it's a separate DSP you can chain it in a DSP stacker to produce a wider range of isolated voice-over effects on the stream.
It can automatically fade down the music playing from Winamp and fade mix-in without you having to press any other buttons and then fade it back up when it's done (this was a big one for me.)

It's also completely 100% free, forever, to any individual/entity/corporation/whatever. There is no trial version or lite version or nags or advertisements. 100% free permanently. The only person it cost was me for my time to create it.

I know at first it can look intimidating but if you play with it long enough you can tweak it to suite your desires. I only ask you to at least give it a try.

Brutish Sailor · 13th June 2010, 23:56

Got apaypal address to donate into its development?

Brutish Sailor · 14th June 2010, 01:29

I was experimenting to see if it would work with my Icecast stuff. Unfortunately my edcast is giving me a Divide by zero error in the stacker.

BUT A NICE Suprise.

I found out Butt (Broadcast using this tool) works with live stereo mix in Vista/Win7.

The only downfall is that butt was not configured properly to handel the xsl metadata transfer for Icecast. Works for what-u-hear, but no dice on getting display info to update properly. For winamp? Works like a champ. Only handles one encoder, but works like a champ.

thinktink · 14th June 2010, 01:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brutish Sailor

Got apaypal address to donate into its development?

No, it's basically complete so there's no need to develop it further (unless usage explodes and PMs flood in for other features) except to maybe add some buffer control configuration stuff at my leisure if it becomes an issue. Since it really only required my time to make it there would be no point in getting money for it.

Thanks for the offer though.

thinktink · 14th June 2010, 01:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brutish Sailor

I was experimenting to see if it would work with my Icecast stuff. Unfortunately my edcast is giving me a Divide by zero error in the stacker.

BUT A NICE Suprise.

I found out Butt (Broadcast using this tool) works with live stereo mix in Vista/Win7.

The only downfall is that butt was not configured properly to handel the xsl metadata transfer for Icecast. Works for what-u-hear, but no dice on getting display info to update properly. For winamp? Works like a champ. Only handles one encoder, but works like a champ.

Oh, can you PM me your setup so I can check it out?

Brutish Sailor · 14th June 2010, 02:32

Which part, for BUTT?

This is the setup I have, (Plus oddsock MJ playlist maker.)

Brutish Sailor · 14th June 2010, 02:37

I think one of the answers is to hunt down Daniel Noethan and see what it would take for him to update his software for Icecast.

Im pretty sure the Error with the DSP stacker was a conflict between the Edcast and Spacials old DSP stacker.

Brutish Sailor · 14th June 2010, 02:42

Looks like whatever conflict edcast is having, its with my comp. Did a clean install of winamp and attempted to load it up....

Brutish Sailor · 14th June 2010, 03:01

Going to try livewire, winamp lite, and Spacial DSP stacker.

Brutish Sailor · 14th June 2010, 03:14

NOPE: Its a conflict between Spacials DSP stacker and Edcast.

Had edcast running. as soon as I pluged in the DSP stacker, it all went to hell in a SAM basket.

Brutish Sailor · 14th June 2010, 03:28

Any DSP stacker with edcast seems like no dice on Vista. Side note: Multiple DSP stacker just crashed my Winamp, then winamp crashes on opening every time after that. Apparently this isnt the first time thats happened

Brutish Sailor · 14th June 2010, 03:31

OK, next Icetest, Winamp, Livewire, and edcast standalone.

thinktink · 14th June 2010, 06:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brutish Sailor

...it all went to hell in a SAM basket.

I thought that was more than mildly amusing.

I don't have Windows Vista to test with but I'm not crashing with Edcast DSP with LiveWire on Multiple DSP 1.3 on Windows XP Home.

Brutish Sailor · 14th June 2010, 12:59

Had to get some sleep (been a while). I think it has something to do with whole user/admin/program permissions thing.

I run XP on desktop. and it seems to run.

Going to try again, but this time, after I get it re-installed, close, and reopen as administrator. I have a hunch its something to do with the stacker opening the DSP plug-ins thats causing Vista to crap out with winamp.

jaromanda · 14th June 2010, 14:14

Brutish Sailor ... if you still suspect edcast ... try edcast from here - http://users.tpg.com.au/radiorio/ - cleaned up a lot of code, fixed a few annoying bugs, compiled with VS2008 - never know, could fix a bug or two

Brutish Sailor · 14th June 2010, 18:28

Installing it right now, if this works, consider my donation in the box payday.

I think I promised to fly my winamp flag if anyone ever fixed this, now Im going to have to go dig it out.

Brutish Sailor · 14th June 2010, 18:44

Whammy!

Stacker loaded with it. The trick is to keep the stacker from having the semi-transparent cloud of death in vista, you must run Winamp as administrator.

Now time to load up a test server when I get home, and make it fly with what you hear. Already wrote Noethen as well at sourceforge to see if he can fixc BUTT to send XSL data for Icecast. Should of also requested multi server stream serving, but I think he built it with lightweight in mind.

thinktink · 14th June 2010, 19:55

Whammy indeed! Also looks sharp...
...~ish.

Why are your screenshots garbled up a little?

Looking forward to hearing about the results of your testing.

Brutish Sailor · 14th June 2010, 21:25

Resized the images through photo bucket, usually has issues with that at times. Should have used GIMP.

Give me just a bit, working with Noethan on the XSL issue for BUTT with loudcity's servers now.

For the test with Edcast and Livewire, going to set up a server, set up streamripper on my home server (true Irony) and run it with 4 sound cards:

On board Realtek HD
Sound Blaster X-FI Platinum Fatal1ty edition
Sound Blaster audigy
and Sound Blaster MNNX2 USB

See how it sounds with them all. Already have a couple of royalty free tunes to run test with. Use CamSudio to record the movements, and I will output the Streamripped sample onto the video using AVI Tricks Classic, so it matches the real time actions of what Im altering on the panel for livewire.

thinktink · 15th June 2010, 01:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brutish Sailor

Give me just a bit, working with Noethan on the XSL issue for BUTT with loudcity's servers now.

I'm sorry, it was not my intention to rush you.

I do appreciate you giving it a go and look forward to seeing your results when they come out.

P.S.
In your last post you mentioned "CamStudio". Never heard of it before you mentioned it and I was looking for something like that a while ago. So glad you mentioned it. Gonna have to try it out when I finally get home.

Brutish Sailor · 15th June 2010, 04:36

Cam studio is actually my favorite on screen recording device, and the most clear. Great for raw cuts to re-encode.

thinktink · 26th June 2010, 17:16

You find that Winamp flag yet?

thinktink · 12th September 2010, 08:43

Wow, last post to this thread was in late June!

Updated BogProg LiveWire 1.1 Beta!

NSIS packed installer inside ZIP archive attached.

In this update:

Bug fix for internal variables not setting correctly on init causing weird and/or inconsistent output.
Added a minor feature of detecting hardware changes (if the OS supports it) and refreshing the list of available devices.

Note: I noticed after running the installer on my computer Winamp still showed the old version string in the DSP list in the Preferences window. If it bothers you, tell Winamp to purge the plugin name cache and then restart Winamp.

Please let me know if you experience any trouble with this DSP.

thinktink · 13th September 2010, 22:21

Has anybody tested this yet or is it too soon to ask? I see there have been 6 "views" of it so far.

thinktink · 20th September 2010, 02:44

Wh00t! Release version 1.1 has been reviewed and passed on the plugins page although I think the official reviewer comment could use a refresh, but still, wh00t! and thank you!

DrO · 20th September 2010, 10:16

the comment was still valid and it's not like you didn't get an official rating bump

-daz

thinktink · 20th September 2010, 16:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by DrO

...and it's not like you didn't get an official rating bump

I didn't see that, you're right!

thinktink · 15th October 2010, 19:40

New version sneak peek!

Need some Alpha~ish testers though if anyone would like to volunteer?

thinktink · 21st November 2010, 03:40

Even newer version teaser screenshot:

As you can see, 1.3 now comes with a built-in fully functional internal DSP stacker (tested with Wine as well.) A new bypass module was also introduced. It allows you to quell the effect of LiveWire mixing functions so that you can patch the output of Winamp to Skype or TeamSpeak or whatever and not be heard twice.

It now saves the activation state and the last tab displayed on quit/reload.

Also tweaked the U.I. so that the RMS% meter is always visible unless you double click it to hide to try to save some CPU cycles if you're not using it.

WARNING! Don't stack a stacker unless you know what you're doing.

Jkey · 21st November 2010, 06:00

I was so scared I would scroll down and see something that I should not have in
your dsp list

:P

Again this is great work,I would say that the functionality is great,maybe a little
more focus on usability is all that is needed to make this complete.
It is a bit technical,so anything that can make it easier to use would be a bonus.

thinktink · 21st November 2010, 18:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jkey

Again this is great work,I would say that the functionality is great,maybe a little more focus on usability is all that is needed to make this complete.
It is a bit technical,so anything that can make it easier to use would be a bonus.

Thanks for the encouragement. What kind of usability improvements did you have in mind?

Jkey · 21st November 2010, 18:12

Your asking the wrong person.
I too struggle with usability in anything I do,in such circumstances I often draw
upon the experience of others who have greater understanding in this area.

Take some of the new sc2 tools as an example.
The amazing functionality in sc_trans,is not matched by usability.
I would stick my neck out and say very little thought went into usability,because
of the time spent with the "magic under the hood".

Find somebody who is good with gui presentation/layout and bring them in to help out

thinktink · 24th November 2010, 20:45

LiveWire 1.3 is now available from my home server. The download will probably be slow BECAUSE it is my home server but at least it's there! lol

http://bogproghome.hopto.org/LiveWire1_3Install.exe

DrO · 24th November 2010, 23:30

the updated version will be reviewed by the end of the weekend (just a smidge busy at the moment)

-daz

Jkey · 25th November 2010, 00:37

Why is it on your home server ?

thinktink · 25th November 2010, 00:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by DrO

the updated version will be reviewed by the end of the weekend (just a smidge busy at the moment)

-daz

Oi, I wasn't trying to pester you or the others reviewers.

I'm just making it available sooner here cause I know it takes time and effort to review things.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jkey

Why is it on your home server ?

Oh, because my home server is currently my only server.

Jkey · 25th November 2010, 06:35

Hey the update was just put through

/edit:
then it vanished.

Jkey · 25th November 2010, 18:12

I see 1.3 is up,Is my comment ok for you ?

thinktink · 26th November 2010, 00:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jkey

I see 1.3 is up,Is my comment ok for you ?

Über nice! Thank you.

Jkey · 26th November 2010, 07:57

Now you learned the secret sc handshake,things get done.

J.

people,there is no secret handshake this is my attempt at humor.

13th June 2010, 23:02	#1
thinktink Forum King Join Date: May 2009 Location: No longer on the streets of Kings County, CA. Posts: 3,219	Live voiceovers. I've been seeing a lot of questions on the forums lately on the topic of live voice over music. The SHOUTcast DSP works just fine for basic voice-over-music functionality but I found it a bit restrictive and not containing all the features that I wanted. That is the reason why I developed LiveWire, and is no longer in beta. The plugin does have some major caveats though: For seamless operation all the music in the playlist has to be at the same bitrate, samplerate, and number of channels (mono/stereo/others). It has to open the input device at the same rate as the currently playing song. Designing the plugin this way reduces the amount of pre-processing overhead to match audio buffers of differing formats, thereby severely reducing the amount of potential heavy CPU and memory usage needed in such a task. For use with the SHOUTcast DSP you have to use a DSP stacker/chain plugin, and LiveWire must be arranged before or above the SHOUTcast DSP in the DSP chain. There is a bit of a delay between what is sent to the DSP and what is outputted by it. This is due to the fact that buffering is required for proper operation. The features you will find in this plugin that I believed were missing in the mixing function of the SHOUTcast DSP: The ability to actively select any valid input/source device without digging through the Windows control panels and then having to restart Winamp. This includes, but is not limited to, USB headsets, other audio cards, and virtual audio devices like Virtual Audio Cable. The fact that it's a separate DSP you can chain it in a DSP stacker to produce a wider range of isolated voice-over effects on the stream. It can automatically fade down the music playing from Winamp and fade mix-in without you having to press any other buttons and then fade it back up when it's done (this was a big one for me.) It's also completely 100% free, forever, to any individual/entity/corporation/whatever. There is no trial version or lite version or nags or advertisements. 100% free permanently. The only person it cost was me for my time to create it. I know at first it can look intimidating but if you play with it long enough you can tweak it to suite your desires. I only ask you to at least give it a try.

13th June 2010, 23:56	#2
Brutish Sailor Major Dude Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: San Diego CA Posts: 998	Got apaypal address to donate into its development? KNSJ.org 89.1 FM San Diego

14th June 2010, 01:29	#3
Brutish Sailor Major Dude Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: San Diego CA Posts: 998	I was experimenting to see if it would work with my Icecast stuff. Unfortunately my edcast is giving me a Divide by zero error in the stacker. BUT A NICE Suprise. I found out Butt (Broadcast using this tool) works with live stereo mix in Vista/Win7. The only downfall is that butt was not configured properly to handel the xsl metadata transfer for Icecast. Works for what-u-hear, but no dice on getting display info to update properly. For winamp? Works like a champ. Only handles one encoder, but works like a champ. KNSJ.org 89.1 FM San Diego

14th June 2010, 02:32	#6
Brutish Sailor Major Dude Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: San Diego CA Posts: 998	Which part, for BUTT? This is the setup I have, (Plus oddsock MJ playlist maker.) KNSJ.org 89.1 FM San Diego

14th June 2010, 02:37	#7
Brutish Sailor Major Dude Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: San Diego CA Posts: 998	I think one of the answers is to hunt down Daniel Noethan and see what it would take for him to update his software for Icecast. Im pretty sure the Error with the DSP stacker was a conflict between the Edcast and Spacials old DSP stacker. KNSJ.org 89.1 FM San Diego

14th June 2010, 02:42	#8
Brutish Sailor Major Dude Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: San Diego CA Posts: 998	Looks like whatever conflict edcast is having, its with my comp. Did a clean install of winamp and attempted to load it up.... KNSJ.org 89.1 FM San Diego

14th June 2010, 03:01	#9
Brutish Sailor Major Dude Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: San Diego CA Posts: 998	Going to try livewire, winamp lite, and Spacial DSP stacker. KNSJ.org 89.1 FM San Diego

14th June 2010, 03:14	#10
Brutish Sailor Major Dude Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: San Diego CA Posts: 998	NOPE: Its a conflict between Spacials DSP stacker and Edcast. Had edcast running. as soon as I pluged in the DSP stacker, it all went to hell in a SAM basket. KNSJ.org 89.1 FM San Diego

14th June 2010, 03:28	#11
Brutish Sailor Major Dude Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: San Diego CA Posts: 998	Any DSP stacker with edcast seems like no dice on Vista. Side note: Multiple DSP stacker just crashed my Winamp, then winamp crashes on opening every time after that. Apparently this isnt the first time thats happened KNSJ.org 89.1 FM San Diego

14th June 2010, 03:31	#12
Brutish Sailor Major Dude Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: San Diego CA Posts: 998	OK, next Icetest, Winamp, Livewire, and edcast standalone. KNSJ.org 89.1 FM San Diego

14th June 2010, 12:59	#14
Brutish Sailor Major Dude Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: San Diego CA Posts: 998	Had to get some sleep (been a while). I think it has something to do with whole user/admin/program permissions thing. I run XP on desktop. and it seems to run. Going to try again, but this time, after I get it re-installed, close, and reopen as administrator. I have a hunch its something to do with the stacker opening the DSP plug-ins thats causing Vista to crap out with winamp. KNSJ.org 89.1 FM San Diego

14th June 2010, 14:14	#15
jaromanda Forum King Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Under the bridge Posts: 2,290	Brutish Sailor ... if you still suspect edcast ... try edcast from here - http://users.tpg.com.au/radiorio/ - cleaned up a lot of code, fixed a few annoying bugs, compiled with VS2008 - never know, could fix a bug or two "If you don't like DNAS, write your own damn system" So I did

14th June 2010, 18:28	#16
Brutish Sailor Major Dude Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: San Diego CA Posts: 998	Installing it right now, if this works, consider my donation in the box payday. I think I promised to fly my winamp flag if anyone ever fixed this, now Im going to have to go dig it out. KNSJ.org 89.1 FM San Diego

14th June 2010, 18:44	#17
Brutish Sailor Major Dude Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: San Diego CA Posts: 998	Whammy! Stacker loaded with it. The trick is to keep the stacker from having the semi-transparent cloud of death in vista, you must run Winamp as administrator. Now time to load up a test server when I get home, and make it fly with what you hear. Already wrote Noethen as well at sourceforge to see if he can fixc BUTT to send XSL data for Icecast. Should of also requested multi server stream serving, but I think he built it with lightweight in mind. KNSJ.org 89.1 FM San Diego

14th June 2010, 19:55	#18
thinktink Forum King Join Date: May 2009 Location: No longer on the streets of Kings County, CA. Posts: 3,219	Whammy indeed! Also looks sharp... ...~ish. Why are your screenshots garbled up a little? Looking forward to hearing about the results of your testing.

14th June 2010, 21:25	#19
Brutish Sailor Major Dude Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: San Diego CA Posts: 998	Resized the images through photo bucket, usually has issues with that at times. Should have used GIMP. Give me just a bit, working with Noethan on the XSL issue for BUTT with loudcity's servers now. For the test with Edcast and Livewire, going to set up a server, set up streamripper on my home server (true Irony) and run it with 4 sound cards: On board Realtek HD Sound Blaster X-FI Platinum Fatal1ty edition Sound Blaster audigy and Sound Blaster MNNX2 USB See how it sounds with them all. Already have a couple of royalty free tunes to run test with. Use CamSudio to record the movements, and I will output the Streamripped sample onto the video using AVI Tricks Classic, so it matches the real time actions of what Im altering on the panel for livewire. KNSJ.org 89.1 FM San Diego

15th June 2010, 04:36	#21
Brutish Sailor Major Dude Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: San Diego CA Posts: 998	Cam studio is actually my favorite on screen recording device, and the most clear. Great for raw cuts to re-encode. KNSJ.org 89.1 FM San Diego

26th June 2010, 17:16	#22
thinktink Forum King Join Date: May 2009 Location: No longer on the streets of Kings County, CA. Posts: 3,219	You find that Winamp flag yet?

12th September 2010, 08:43	#23
thinktink Forum King Join Date: May 2009 Location: No longer on the streets of Kings County, CA. Posts: 3,219	Wow, last post to this thread was in late June! Updated BogProg LiveWire 1.1 Beta! NSIS packed installer inside ZIP archive attached. In this update: Bug fix for internal variables not setting correctly on init causing weird and/or inconsistent output. Added a minor feature of detecting hardware changes (if the OS supports it) and refreshing the list of available devices. Note: I noticed after running the installer on my computer Winamp still showed the old version string in the DSP list in the Preferences window. If it bothers you, tell Winamp to purge the plugin name cache and then restart Winamp. Please let me know if you experience any trouble with this DSP. Last edited by thinktink; 18th September 2010 at 19:51.

13th September 2010, 22:21	#24
thinktink Forum King Join Date: May 2009 Location: No longer on the streets of Kings County, CA. Posts: 3,219	Has anybody tested this yet or is it too soon to ask? I see there have been 6 "views" of it so far.

20th September 2010, 02:44	#25
thinktink Forum King Join Date: May 2009 Location: No longer on the streets of Kings County, CA. Posts: 3,219	Wh00t! Release version 1.1 has been reviewed and passed on the plugins page although I think the official reviewer comment could use a refresh, but still, wh00t! and thank you!

20th September 2010, 10:16	#26
DrO Join Date: Sep 2003 Posts: 27,873	the comment was still valid and it's not like you didn't get an official rating bump -daz WACUP Project <‖> "Winamp Ramblings" - Indie Winamp Dev Blog

15th October 2010, 19:40	#28
thinktink Forum King Join Date: May 2009 Location: No longer on the streets of Kings County, CA. Posts: 3,219	New version sneak peek! Need some Alpha~ish testers though if anyone would like to volunteer? Attached Thumbnails

21st November 2010, 03:40	#29
thinktink Forum King Join Date: May 2009 Location: No longer on the streets of Kings County, CA. Posts: 3,219	Even newer version teaser screenshot: As you can see, 1.3 now comes with a built-in fully functional internal DSP stacker (tested with Wine as well.) A new bypass module was also introduced. It allows you to quell the effect of LiveWire mixing functions so that you can patch the output of Winamp to Skype or TeamSpeak or whatever and not be heard twice. It now saves the activation state and the last tab displayed on quit/reload. Also tweaked the U.I. so that the RMS% meter is always visible unless you double click it to hide to try to save some CPU cycles if you're not using it. WARNING! Don't stack a stacker unless you know what you're doing. Attached Thumbnails

21st November 2010, 06:00	#30
Jkey Forum King Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: E*arth Posts: 3,031	I was so scared I would scroll down and see something that I should not have in your dsp list :P Again this is great work,I would say that the functionality is great,maybe a little more focus on usability is all that is needed to make this complete. It is a bit technical,so anything that can make it easier to use would be a bonus. So Long, and Thanks for All the Fish.

21st November 2010, 18:12	#32
Jkey Forum King Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: E*arth Posts: 3,031	Your asking the wrong person. I too struggle with usability in anything I do,in such circumstances I often draw upon the experience of others who have greater understanding in this area. Take some of the new sc2 tools as an example. The amazing functionality in sc_trans,is not matched by usability. I would stick my neck out and say very little thought went into usability,because of the time spent with the "magic under the hood". Find somebody who is good with gui presentation/layout and bring them in to help out So Long, and Thanks for All the Fish.

24th November 2010, 20:45	#33
thinktink Forum King Join Date: May 2009 Location: No longer on the streets of Kings County, CA. Posts: 3,219	LiveWire 1.3 is now available from my home server. The download will probably be slow BECAUSE it is my home server but at least it's there! lol http://bogproghome.hopto.org/LiveWire1_3Install.exe

24th November 2010, 23:30	#34
DrO Join Date: Sep 2003 Posts: 27,873	the updated version will be reviewed by the end of the weekend (just a smidge busy at the moment) -daz WACUP Project <‖> "Winamp Ramblings" - Indie Winamp Dev Blog

25th November 2010, 00:37	#35
Jkey Forum King Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: E*arth Posts: 3,031	Why is it on your home server ? So Long, and Thanks for All the Fish.

25th November 2010, 06:35	#37
Jkey Forum King Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: E*arth Posts: 3,031	Hey the update was just put through /edit: then it vanished. So Long, and Thanks for All the Fish.

25th November 2010, 18:12	#38
Jkey Forum King Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: E*arth Posts: 3,031	I see 1.3 is up,Is my comment ok for you ? So Long, and Thanks for All the Fish.

26th November 2010, 07:57	#40
Jkey Forum King Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: E*arth Posts: 3,031	Now you learned the secret sc handshake,things get done. J. people,there is no secret handshake this is my attempt at humor. So Long, and Thanks for All the Fish.

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