Old 21st January 2010, 03:47   #1
Dandruff
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ReplayGain Preamp - display reference SPL level

Currently in version 5.572 you don't really see which SPL level the preamp setting is giving you.


In foobar2000 this is nice done:

Example:


Preamp default:
"+0dB (89.0dB)"

changing this to -6db gives

"-6dB (83.0dB)" readout


So it would be nice if Winamp could display this too. Which reference level (at 0dB) is Winamp using? 83dB or 89dB as in foobar2000?
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Old 27th January 2010, 00:39   #2
beatsandmelody
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Re: ReplayGain Preamp - display reference SPL level

Quote:
Originally posted by Dandruff
Currently in version 5.572 you don't really see which SPL level the preamp setting is giving you.


In foobar2000 this is nice done:

Example:


Preamp default:
"+0dB (89.0dB)"

changing this to -6db gives

"-6dB (83.0dB)" readout


So it would be nice if Winamp could display this too. Which reference level (at 0dB) is Winamp using? 83dB or 89dB as in foobar2000?
I think Winamp (based on several hours of googling, as I just started using replaygain / mp3gain) uses 89dB. I'm fairly certain.

The thing I've been trying to figure out is to make Winamp act like MP3Gain in that I can set the "Target" dB. I prefer to use 95 dB as target and tell mp3gain to not allow clipping when doing track gain. I usually use album gain, but if I discover an album that's been mastered too high already, and most of the tracks are already clipping, and most of the Max No-Clip Gain values are a negative value, I just set track gain on that whole album.
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Old 27th January 2010, 00:43   #3
beatsandmelody
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So wait a minute...

If the preamp value means a deviation from the default value (which should be 89dB), then I can just set my preamp to +6dB and that should work, right?

The only thing is, Winamp is a little harder for me to understand, since I'm a newb.

MP3Gain tells me what the current track / album gain is, if there's currently clipping on the track / album, and if there will be clipping on the track / album if I set modify gain based on my preferred TARGET dB.

I'm at work so I'll experiment when I go home. Maybe we'll get somewhere.
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Old 27th January 2010, 01:26   #4
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Quote:
Originally posted by beatsandmelody
So wait a minute...

If the preamp value means a deviation from the default value (which should be 89dB), then I can just set my preamp to +6dB and that should work, right?
Yes.

Quote:
Originally posted by beatsandmelody
The only thing is, Winamp is a little harder for me to understand, since I'm a newb.

MP3Gain tells me what the current track / album gain is, if there's currently clipping on the track / album, and if there will be clipping on the track / album if I set modify gain based on my preferred TARGET dB.

I'm at work so I'll experiment when I go home. Maybe we'll get somewhere.
You can use +6dB with Apply Gain/Prevent Clipping, it'll automatically reduce the gain if it's too high.
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Old 10th April 2010, 09:29   #5
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Wow, thanks for the timely response. I thought I would get an email when someone responded but I must have that turned off.

Now another question: The OP asked about Preamp setting. I'm right in assuming this is a global value and applies to all files, even if they have APEv2 tags written in by mp3gain, correct? So if it's at + 0.0 db, it will be played at the APEv2 value...right?

I'm asking all this because mp3gain obviously takes care of my mp3's, but I also have AAC and FLAC files. So to use Winamp to supplement mp3gain when it comes to replaygain, I would want to use the slider above the preamp, which is "Adjustment for files without Replay" and set that to whatever value offset from 89 db.

My target being 95 db, I set the top slider to +6.0 (to make all other files 95 db), and the bottom slider + 0.0 db to leave everything else already set to 95 db alone?

But this only covers playback... Is there any way to have Winamp calculate ReplayGain on FLAC files with at a target SPL of 95 db? Maybe when it transcodes to mp3 for placement on my iPod, it will keep those values. One can hope.

Thank you for your help. I love Winamp. I've known about it for a long time but only recently started to use the really advanced features. Never wanted to invest the time before, but it's definitely worth it.
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Old 11th April 2010, 22:26   #6
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first, i absolutely agree that winamp should show what the ref level is in the adj slider of the RG pre-amp.

however, all the RG pre-amp does is adjust the final output. the tags in the files should get all tracks as close to either 83 or 89 as possible, so you're just adjusting from that point. i wouldn't want to boost it from there, fearing that i might boost it too much for some material. [so i set mine to 0.0]

i think its smarter to simply "turn it up" [it being the reference level of either 83 or 89] via the stereo amp or speakers than adjust the ref level winamp output.

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Old 12th April 2010, 00:48   #7
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Well, the thing is I've already set all my stuff to 95 db (I've been very happy so far). Well, all of the mp3's. Mp3's account for the majority of my 7000+ songs. The rest are mostly AAC and FLAC. I'm just trying to figure out exactly how to make Winamp output any other file at that same SPL.
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Old 12th April 2010, 01:14   #8
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but did you just use RG tags, ie. txt values, or did u use mp3gain to actually apply the gain permanently to the audiofile?

winamp can write RG tags to mp3, aac, and flac files np. its just a tag value, the audio itself isn't adjusted.

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Old 12th April 2010, 01:21   #9
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mp3gain only writes APEv2 tags, it doesn't change the file itself.

I know Winamp calculates RG, but it's very basic and doesn't provide as much info as mp3gain. Also, it doesn't let me choose what SPL to write to the files. That's why I'm trying to manipulate the Playback options to my liking. Because I can use winamp to calculate RG on all my other file formats, but I can't choose the SPL. Maybe Winamp uses the sliders when calculating and writing in addition to just playback? If that's the case, I had no idea.
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Old 12th April 2010, 01:31   #10
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I just realized what might be a problem. If I'm asking Winamp to adjust output SPL on the fly for files with no info written (which is exactly what I'm trying to do), then it will still vary, because the files are all going to be at different SPL's anyway. So I guess I'm just going to have to wait until Winamp provides the ability to calculate with a user adjustable target SPL...
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Old 12th April 2010, 03:32   #11
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winamp does 4 tags for RG that i know of:

track gain
album gain
track peak
album peak

what other values do you want?

i can't say if the RG tags set the ref playback level to 83 or 89, but i am fairly certain its one or the other. whichever one it is, the "RG preamp slider" could then be used to adjust it from 83/89 to whatever value you want [again, on playback], but you have to have the RG tag first.

the sliders have nothing to do with creating the tags.

the other slider is only for files with no RG tags, and its just to keep you from jumping out of your seat in case a loud file plays with no RG and so could be a lot louder than 83/89.

there is no way to calculate RG on the fly during playback, (at least not yet, not in winamp), and so the best thing to do is just make sure everything has a RG tag, which is easy to do and worthwhile to do.

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Old 12th April 2010, 04:05   #12
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Oh I see. The files have to have tags in some form FIRST and then the top slider will work (I've noticed the pregain will affect output on any song, which makes sense).

So I'll calculate rg with winamp then use the sliders to adjust it again to what I want. I was asking in an earlier post if that's what I had to do. Then it's just a matter of experimentation to determine if it's at 83 or 89, and that won't be very hard.

The only problem is when I sync the files to my iPod, then they'll probably only retain the tag information, thus I could not adjust them further up from that. So the iPod will still have songs at different values...
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Old 13th April 2010, 01:36   #13
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ipod / itunes uses "soundcheck," which is a poor man's version of RG, but not the same thing.

i saw this in email:

Quote:
I know the sliders have nothing to do with the tags. I just assumed the sliders were an adjustment made on the fly. That was my mistake.

I'll wait to calculate gain on the non mp3 files, as there'd be no point in doing the replaygain on them now, since it's going to set it either a little lower (89) or moderately lower (83) than the majority that are at 95. I've noticed a lot of stuff so far has been 90-100 so I'd rather wait until I can set AAC and FLAC to 95 db SPL. Thanks for trying to help.
so i guess you edited your post?

i'm confused that you seem somewhat confused, b/c to me its all so straightforward.

basically, if you used TAGS to adjust ANY file to 95db, then what i would do is simply delete/overwrite ALL your tags with winamp RG. then create RG tags with winamp for files that never had them.

at that point, ALL your files will share the same ref level, be it 83 or 89. AND THEN, at that point, use the slider to go from 83 or 89 to 95.

seems simple to me... although what i do, i simply let winamp stay at the reference level, and use the actual volume knob on the amp/receiver/speakers to adjust the volume.

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Old 13th April 2010, 01:57   #14
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yeah screw soundcheck :P

I'm not really that confused, I just have open ended questions haha. All I was looking for was an answer to where the sliders would have an effect or not. Plus, I had to explain to you what I do know, which is actually a lot more than it would seem because I've done a lot of reading.

Basically, I wanted to avoid doing what you suggested. Although it's simple, it will still be quite tedious... But you see, as I mentioned, the sliders will only have an effect on my PC. I do listen to music throughout the house using the iPod or in my car.

And that will segue in to why I choose 95 db. Better for an OEM car system where the volume can't quite get to where you want to begin with. I also read a forum where a DJ who's RG'ed many many many tracks recommend 95 in combination with 'prevent clipping.' I understand what your saying about using the volume knob. I am partly using the 95 to cheat in my car (just a little bit).

However, I do rely on Winamp exclusively for music so I'll think about using Winamp to recalibrate gain on everything. Just wish I could've done it a just as simple but much quicker way. However, this could turn out to be a blessing in disguise: there are mp3's on my computer that mp3gain will not load for some reason. mp3gain has pretty much no official support. The faq has only 2 common problems. So hopefully if I redo everything, those will be picked up... Man. Music collections take a lot more maintenance than one would think...

Thanks for all your help!

Last edited by beatsandmelody; 13th April 2010 at 02:05. Reason: typo and more info
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Old 13th April 2010, 02:25   #15
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ok, so here is where you are confusing me:

if you only used TAGS, ie replaygain tags, to get your files to do 95db output, meaning you did not apply gain to the actual audio file/data itself, then 95db output is achieved ONLY IF the devices support RG on playback.

afaik, ipods and itunes do NOT support RG, only soundcheck. (granted, i'm no apple expert)

also, i'd love to know what car radio supports RG tags? (not saying they don't exist, i just haven't seen them yet)

btw, in winamp you can configure the RG plugin in prefs to create both track/album tags at one time, and simply write them as it goes so its not tedious at all. i did mine in chunks, but winamp never crashed once. if using vista/win7 just make sure winamp is in admin mode so it can have filewriting privs. i did 10k+ overnight and winamp knocked it out np.

the plugin is just for creating RG tags. the main app handles reading/applying them for playback, (afaik).

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Old 13th April 2010, 02:28   #16
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i think it might also be possble to have both RG tags and soundcheck tags simultaneously. mp3tag is the best app out there imo for examining/fixing tag issues in files.

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Old 13th April 2010, 02:34   #17
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Yes, I am aware of that. I have read on these forums that Winamp will transfer the RG info to an iPod (with ml_ipod anyway, not the pmp one) if that tags are there. Seems to work because most of my iPod songs are at the same level.

Car radio does not support RG. But I listen to my iPod through my car system using an FM tuner.

Yes, I know. That's how I do it in mp3gain as well. Track and album gain.

I'm not too concerned about it crashing or anything. But I always plan in a little time to troubleshoot anything that may go wrong. Murphy's law and all. I rely on my PC for almost everything so it's important to me that I minimize downtime. It has all my music, movies, and tv shows. It has the interwebz. Very vital piece of equipment. Even if everything went swimmingly, have to factor in the chance that I may need to invest more time undoing what I've done (not just Winamp talk in this regard).

Yes, I know. I was just hoping for a little bit of manipulation at the end. Not in this release...

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrSinatra View Post
ok, so here is where you are confusing me:

if you only used TAGS, ie replaygain tags, to get your files to do 95db output, meaning you did not apply gain to the actual audio file/data itself, then 95db output is achieved ONLY IF the devices support RG on playback.

afaik, ipods and itunes do NOT support RG, only soundcheck. (granted, i'm no apple expert)

also, i'd love to know what car radio supports RG tags? (not saying they don't exist, i just haven't seen them yet)

btw, in winamp you can configure the RG plugin in prefs to create both track/album tags at one time, and simply write them as it goes so its not tedious at all. i did mine in chunks, but winamp never crashed once. if using vista/win7 just make sure winamp is in admin mode so it can have filewriting privs. i did 10k+ overnight and winamp knocked it out np.

the plugin is just for creating RG tags. the main app handles reading/applying them for playback, (afaik).
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Old 14th April 2010, 23:03   #18
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Hi MrSinatra,

after reading THIS

I've decided to undo all changes made by MP3gain and recalculate gain on everything with Winamp. If one of the guys in that forum is right, MP3Gain hasn't been worked on in a long time, and even though it's referred to as a lossless change, it's still modifying bits (and storing undo information), which I don't want (and this might've been what confused you, because I had read otherwise about MP3Gain).

Plus, songs sync'ed by winamp to iPod with ml_ipod (not pmp) should retain the id3 tags with the RG info. Even though the changes are made to the mp3's (in a reversible but still not untouched way) and still have an effect on the iPod, I'm also hoping my new Motorola Droid will read this id3 tag info and thus have everything at the proper SPL dB.

Also, mp3gain site has no support as I mentioned earlier. Whereas Winamp is continually updated, has many users and support, and good forums! :-)

I'll probably undo all changes and strip all APEv2 tags tonight. Then when I feel up to the next step, recalculate everything.

Thanks again for talking with me. Hopefully our thread helps someone in the future.

Last edited by beatsandmelody; 14th April 2010 at 23:06. Reason: I always proofread after finishing :D
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Old 15th April 2010, 01:43   #19
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well, allow me the disclaimer that while i do have a certain way of doing things, and i do advocate it, i by no means want to suggest its the "only" right way to do things.

but having said that, i never liked the idea of mp3gain modifying the actual audio, and for most FLACheads it would be verbotten, but even for mp3 i find the RG way so much more elegant. since i use winamp or SBS (squeezebox server) to playback my tunes, both support RG, so there is no issue.

one thing i didn't understand, is that you use winamp to manage your ipod, and that winamp is smart enough to know to translate your RG tags to soundcheck tags, if in fact thats the case. i don't have an ipod so i wouldn't know.

i also don't like ape tags, and i use id3v2.3 for mp3s, and flac (vorbis) tags for flac. however, i'm not at all sure you need to use id3 instead of ape for mp3. i do use mp3tag to strip other tags info out of my files, and i have set winamp to not create id3v1.1 tags, (or else i'd have to keep stripping them out over and over)

but anyway, i would never use mp3gain to mod the gain in frames, b/c thats fooling with the audio file itself. it may state in the tag what its set to as well, but thats secondary to what its actually doing.

the problem i see for you is that when you get your files to 83 or 89, and then xfer to your ipod, thats where they will remain if in fact your ipod understands RG values to begin with (b/c you use winamps ipod plugin to manage the ipod). the sliders will only add or subtract gain to the winamp reference level for when winamp itself is playing them.

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