Old 30th July 2012, 11:25   #1
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[split from http://forums.winamp.com/showthread.php?t=346629 as going off-topic]

Hi Batter Pudding,

I been following this discussion with some interest. Here's another curveball.

These playlists in the library are copies of the playlists stored elsewhere on the computer. If you delete the playlist you have added to and then reload it from the folder on the computer does not the items that were added no longer appear?

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Old 30th July 2012, 11:39   #2
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Aminifu - I am not sure what you mean by "copies of the playlists stored elsewhere". These playlists are the ones in the location noted above %appdata%\winamp\Plugins\ml\*.m3u8 In my case mostly from the results of ripping CDs.

As part of the test, I have created brand new playlists and they show the same drag and drop issue.

A close and reopen of Winamp did not show up the tracks. Though I am confused by "does not the items that were added no longer appear?". I think I have covered your suggested test above. Nothing changes with a close and reopen of Winamp.


(I'm off to see a client shortly to get stuck into a pile of cables. A computer engineer who also sets up TV and AV equipment...)
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Old 30th July 2012, 11:50   #3
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Hi Batter Pudding,

When you can, look at the thread linked below and the threads linked in it to explain what I mean by copies of playlists stored elsewhere.

http://forums.winamp.com/showthread.php?t=345573

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Old 30th July 2012, 12:04   #4
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@aminifu: I had a quick look at your link and that is clearly something else not related to the OP's issue. That is someone moving whole playlists to an external device.

We are talking about the playlists on the left in my screenshot. And how to add ONE track to one of those playlists.

SEND TO works, Drag and Drop doesn't. SEND TO will update the playlist immediately with the new track name no matter if it comes from ML, Another Playlist, or the Now Playing playlist. Whereas Drag and Drop is only currently working from the ML.
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Old 30th July 2012, 12:13   #5
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Yes, I know the send to media library playlist option works. What I'm trying to say is if you delete the playlist you have sent stuff to from the library and then import the playlist with the same name from the folder the playlist is stored in. Does not the imported playlist not include the items that were sent to the previous list with the send to option?

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Old 30th July 2012, 12:28   #6
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@Aminifu: simple answer is - no.

Longer answer. I have just gone into the folder where the playlists are saved. I then opened each one up in turn in notepad++ and they show the same tracks as Winamp is displaying.

BUT... of note for Daz... the DATE STAMPS of the files have been touched as if something has attempted to update them even through there is no change in the file contents itself.

Each playlist that I had attempted to update has a changed "Date modified" time stamp, but the contents are still untouched.

(I am guessing that you are not trying this out yourself but just theorising? Try it and you will see what we are referring to.)


Now I really have gone for a couple of hours.... catch you guys later.
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Old 30th July 2012, 12:31   #7
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Maybe the previous post is still not clear enough. When I used the playlist editor to save the active list, I save it in a folder on my system. All playlists I make, I save in this folder. Then I use the media library playlist import command to add these lists to the library.

If I use the send to option to add tracks to any of these lists in the library all is well. But if I delete any of the updated lists and then re-import them from the folder I get the original lists and not the updated ones.

If the sent to option would let me sent tracks to a list in my storage folder that would be great, but it only lets me sent tracks to lists in the library. So lists updated in the library would not be in sync with the lists in the storage folder.

So I don't use the send to option. Instead I use the process described in the thread I provided earlier to update my lists in my storage folder. Then I delete the corresponding lists in the library and re-import them from my storage folder. This is the only way I'm able to keep the lists in the library and the lists in my storage folder in sync. Then I can load a list from the library or from my storage folder and get the same tracks.

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Old 30th July 2012, 12:50   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aminifu View Post
If the sent to option would let me sent tracks to a list in my storage folder that would be great, but it only lets me sent tracks to lists in the library.
I'm sure we've covered this a number of times now in other threads (and probably the last one was within the last month).

there is no linking of things between the original source playlist and the library playlist and what you (and others) seem to want is to use the original playlist as the library playlist instead of allowing the library to generate a snapshot of the original playlist at the time of adding and that is all it generally does (though does then allow editing of the library instance).

either way, it's not related to the original reason for this thread where drag & drop between library playlists is not working as expected and what you're wanting is a new feature request (well as new as one that people have been asking about for almost decade).

-daz
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Old 30th July 2012, 13:02   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DrO View Post
I'm sure we've covered this a number of times now in other threads (and probably the last one was within the last month).
Yes, I know. I was trying to explain this to Batter. Not sure if he (and the OP) is aware of this.

Anyway sorry to go OT, so I will stop this side discussion now.

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Old 30th July 2012, 13:13   #10
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talk away discussion is in it's own thread now.

-daz
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Old 1st August 2012, 16:42   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aminifu View Post
Yes, I know. I was trying to explain this to Batter. Not sure if he (and the OP) is aware of this.

Anyway sorry to go OT, so I will stop this side discussion now.
I have read the rest of this thread now and am just more confused. This really is nothing to do with that original question. All I was trying to do was help that guy out by confirming the issue. I don't understand your issue or how it would affect me.

Sorry if you wasted your time trying to explain to me.
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Old 1st August 2012, 18:47   #12
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Hi Batter Pudding,

Sorry I went OT in the other thread. I realize now that the issue I'm talking about only affects me and those who use "m3u" and "m3u8" playlists the way I do. Now I'm thinking there may be a better way of handling things than what I've been doing. I'll try explaining again.

When I create playlists with the playlist editor, I save them in a folder (I made) with a descriptive name using the 'm3u' extension. When I import these lists into the media library, copies are made with a name created by the playlist plug-in using the 'm3u8' extension. These playlists are stored in the user's winamp/plugins/ml folder. The library displays these 'm3u8' lists with the names I gave the 'm3u' lists, but stores them with "plf*" names that the plug-in creates.

My problem is keeping the 'm3u' and 'm3u8' lists in sync. If I use the 'send to' command (or drag & drop) to update a library ('m3u8') list, then the corresponding 'm3u' list is out of sync. If I load a 'm3u' list into the playlist editor, update and re-save it from there, then the corresponding 'm3u8' list is out of sync.

It would be possible to keep the 'm3u' and 'm3u8' lists in sync (outside of WA) using copy & paste with notepad++, but matching the "plf*.m3u8" lists with the corresponding "*.m3u" lists is tedious and time consuming.

So what I have been doing is only updating my 'm3u' lists, then deleting the corresponding library 'm3u8' lists and re-importing the updated 'm3u' lists. If I don't delete the corresponding library lists, I end up with multiple lists in the library displaying the same name, since these lists (displaying the same name) are stored with different 'plf*' names.

I'm now thinking there is no real need to maintain 2 groups of playlists. It may be better to only use a 'm3u' list to create an original 'm3u8' list and then only use the 'm3u8' list going forward for loading and updating. I just have to break my habit of loading playlists directly from my storage folder and use the media library instead.

Is it possible to create a media library ('m3u8') playlist directly with a descriptive name and thus avoid the 'plf*' names?

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Old 1st August 2012, 19:14   #13
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Okay. Now I have my brain turned on a bit more I think I get what you are saying. And to me, it sounds like things are working exactly as designed in Winamp.

There are playlists kept inside Winamp. And then there are playlists that are saved separately.

This is a bit like when I rip a CD. A playlist is created and saved in the folder with the album. And a copy of that playlist is inserted into Winamp.

Now I tend to move that album folder over to my server. So end up with extra playlists in Winamp pointing to folders that are not there. And playlists in album folders that Winamp doesn't know exists.

So I also "break" things in a different way to you, but this makes sense to how I use Winamp. (I am more of a "Concept Album" listener than a "playlist of random tracks" listener)

Yet that playlist in the folder will still works as the paths are relative to the location of the .m3u file.


Playlists in folders are still good as you can double click them to launch them from the OS level. In my case, they can also follow me to other devices.

What you are doing is probably fairly unique to you. So if I was doing what you are attempting, I'd just maintain the internal list.


Really it depends on what you plan to do with the playlists outside of Winamp I guess.

-=-=-

Looking closer the m3u and m3u8 playlists are very different. When I rip an album it is to T:\!!RippityRip\Artist\Album. This results in a m3u in the same folder with JUST the track names. A RELATIVE path. So that playlist will work ANYWHERE the folder is moved to.

The m3u8 playlists that Winamp COPIES into that list on the left are ABSOLUTE paths. So will point at the full file name including folder.


m3u just has:
10 - Pink Floyd - Eclipse.flac

m3u8 has:
T:\!!RippityRip\Pink Floyd\Dark Side Of The Moon\10 - Pink Floyd - Eclipse.flac


So it shows - different playlists for different purposes.

Or as we used to say when I was a developer - That ain't a bug, it's a feature
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Old 1st August 2012, 19:43   #14
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I have learnt something today. You have at least pushed me to go read the m3u files closer. So I finally know that the line #EXTINF:131,Pink Floyd - Eclipse means the track is 131 seconds long. That number used to confuse me when I was hacking playlists by hand.
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Old 1st August 2012, 20:33   #15
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I never should have brought this up in the other thread. I did not want to imply that this playlist handling is a bug, I know it's by design.

What I'm saying is the design could be better. What we have now is awkward and limiting. Others have posted on this, 2 or 3 fairly recently (what DrO was alluding to in post #8 above).

And yes the m3u and m3u8 listings are more different than one would think. I did not know that your kind of m3u list was possible. My m3u lists created by the playlist editor has the full file name including folders.

Example:
m3u
D:\*****\MP3 Files\K Names\Kim Waters - Fortunate.mp3

m3u8
#EXTINF:273,Kim Waters - Fortunate - 63.4259
D:\*****\MP3 Files\K Names\Kim Waters - Fortunate.mp3

In case you are wondering about the "63.4259", I use ATF title formatting to add the BPM tag to the artist and song title tags normally displayed in the playlist editor. What's curious to me is, I list the BPM tag first in the ATF string (lets me use the sort by title command to sort the playlist by BPM) but it's shown last here.

I started using WA before m3u8 lists (and some other related things) were provided and developed my approach to playlists a long time ago. Bottom line, we all get used to adapting to WA's design choices the best way we can. It's just that sometimes I wish these choices were more consistent.

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Old 1st August 2012, 20:44   #16
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But I know that consistency is hard to maintain when major plug-ins are written and maintained by different people over time. So I keep an eye out for what others do and try to learn from them what I can apply to my use of WA.

In instance, I knew about 'send to', but didn't know about 'drag & drop' until the OP in the other thread posted that it had stopped working.

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Old 2nd August 2012, 08:24   #17
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Relative paths in the ripped playlist are an option somewhere in the preferences. This is very useful to me when moving to other devices, etc.
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Old 2nd August 2012, 13:10   #18
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Thanx for that info. It's good to know what WA is capable of. Since joining the forum, I learn something new or something old that I wasn't aware of, almost every other month. I just love WA.

I use EAC to rip and I seldom rip complete albums because I seldom like all the songs on an album. Now that storage space is ample and cheap, I still don't feel the desire to store songs I don't like just to have the complete album. I feed lucky if I like over half the songs and cheated when I don't, therefore I seldom have a need for album playlists. My playlists are mostly custom compilations.

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Old 2nd August 2012, 15:39   #19
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Weird thing is I can't find where the option is for the relative \ absolute paths in a playlist. Or maybe it is the default for when ripping CDs with Winamp. Then it is Winamp who adjusts that playlist when it gets added to the library.

Of course, as I rip, both of those actions are happening automatically. A playlist of relative paths is dropped into the album folder along with the FLACs. And a separate playlist of absolute paths is added to the library for the library to use.

=-=-

And you have picked out the big difference there as to how we both listen to music. You don't like whole albums as you are into artists who make separate songs and then add "filler" to an album. Whereas I am into bands like Pink Floyd, Radiohead, etc who make albums to be played from track 1 to track 11. More like a performance piece.

In fact, I rarely use playlists at all. What I tend to do is search for a band in the media library, then load up a whole album or two from that band to play. As a bizarre example, my current playlist on this PC is :

Queensrÿche - Operation: Mindcrime
Faithless - Greatest Hits
Pink Floyd - Dark Side Of The Moon
Ed Alleyne-Johnson - Purple Electric Violin Concerto
The Exorcist - Soundtrack
Plan B - ill Manors

Yeah - wide ranging. But I listen to a whole album before moving to the next... Notice a couple of concept albums in there. And the Soundtracks. "Plan B / ill Manors" fits into both soundtrack and concept album at same time.

I prefer a performance piece to a selection of tracks.

And yeah - my tastes are wide... different moods, different energies. You should see some of the stuff loaded up on my media PC - especially as I went on a 1990s memory binge a few months back.

-=-=-

The beauty of Winamp is it covers so many different possible variations that lets us all use the program in our own way. Unlike the restricted methods than products like iTunes force you into. Like you, I am still learning tricks that can be performed in Winamp. One of the reasons I still hang around these forums.

Well, I've only had Winamp since the late 1990s so I think there are a few things I am still finding out.
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