Old 6th September 2004, 21:16   #1
purplesilk
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 3
"Creationism in our public schools?"

Special Show Monday!

*url removed

09/06/04 @ 8PM ET: "Creationism in our public schools?"
* On Sept. 26 2002, in Cobb County, GA the School Board unanimously approved a resolution on teaching the origin of earth’s species that will allow teachers to discuss both creationism and the theory of evolution. (Why not the Raelien belief as well?) This decision followed shortly after disclaimers about evolution were placed in textbooks, saying that, "Evolution is a scientific theory, not a fact".

* Jeffrey Selman is a Cobb County, Georgia resident that is currently working on multiple lawsuits against Cobb County for their allowance of religious inculcation into our science curriculum. He has one child in the elementary school system of Cobb County.

* Jeffrey will be coming on the program to discuss with us, religion in school, the legalities of this conflict and the agenda of the religious right to essentially change our science curriculum forever.

/EDIT spam allowed here no more.
purplesilk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 6th September 2004, 21:30   #2
LollipopLustKil
Insomniac
(Forum King)
 
LollipopLustKil's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Ohio
Posts: 3,033
Send a message via AIM to LollipopLustKil
Apparently there's some law against teaching the evolutionary theory that Gill Jerard used a time machine, went back and ejaculated into the primorital ooze.

Scotty Doesn't Know
LollipopLustKil is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 6th September 2004, 23:34   #3
squakMix
wwwyzzerdd
(Forum King)
 
squakMix's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 3,458
squakMix is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 7th September 2004, 00:06   #4
THPSFG
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: :morF
Posts: 79
I'm going to reveal information to you that is going to be very disturbing... Despite a contsitution that said seperate religion from state, it's not happening anymore. This is the scariest time in our nations history.
THPSFG is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 7th September 2004, 00:11   #5
Myxomatosis
aka bRiAnFuRY
Fuck it dude...
let's go bowling.
(Major dud)
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 1,162
Send a message via AIM to Myxomatosis
I'm moving to Cana...Britian.

Alex Jones: Do you want the puppet on the right or the puppet on the left? What a bunch of garbage; liberal democrat, conservative, republican. It's all there to control you! Two sides of the same coin. Two management teams bidding for control, the CEO job of Slavery, Incorporated! The truth is out there in front of you, but they lay out this buffet of lies. I'm sick of it, and I'm not going to take a bite out of it, do you got me?
Myxomatosis is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 7th September 2004, 08:19   #6
will
Nullsoft Newbie (Moderator)
 
will's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Sheffield, England
Posts: 5,569
Yes, move to britan and we can form a duo the likes of have never been seen to fight the evil creationistic forces.

DO NOT PM ME WITH TECH SUPPORT QUESTIONS
will is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 7th September 2004, 17:31   #7
bgesley
Major Dude
 
bgesley's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: without wax
Posts: 948
Send a message via AIM to bgesley
In Solviet Russia Creationism schools you!

bgesley is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 7th September 2004, 17:33   #8
gaekwad2
Foorum King
 
gaekwad2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: bar2000
Posts: 11,411
In Soviet Russia schools create you!
gaekwad2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 7th September 2004, 19:06   #9
GqSkrub
Major Dude
 
GqSkrub's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Lancaster Pennsylvania
Posts: 897
Send a message via AIM to GqSkrub
creationism is no more fact than evolution. this is truth.

No sig here folks.
GqSkrub is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 7th September 2004, 19:43   #10
bgesley
Major Dude
 
bgesley's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: without wax
Posts: 948
Send a message via AIM to bgesley
Quote:
Originally posted by GqSkrub
creationism is no more fact than evolution. this is truth.
riiiiiiight.

bgesley is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 7th September 2004, 19:56   #11
Wolfgang
Forum King
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 3,069
The Lord will provide. Don't worry.
Wolfgang is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 7th September 2004, 20:09   #12
MegaRock
Forum King
 
MegaRock's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Inside my water bong
Posts: 6,854
Send a message via ICQ to MegaRock Send a message via Yahoo to MegaRock
Quote:
Originally posted by LollipopLustKil
Apparently there's some law against teaching the evolutionary theory that Gill Jerard used a time machine, went back and ejaculated into the primorital ooze.
That's funny.
MegaRock is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 7th September 2004, 20:46   #13
CaboWaboAddict
Forum Sot
(Major Dude)
 
CaboWaboAddict's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Marietta, Ga. U.S.A.
Posts: 3,915
I have been following this closely - I live in Cobb County. They have some real wierd rules here too. My oldest son had 5 years of Spanish in Elementary School, then was required to take either Latin or French in Middle School. Spanish wasn't even offered.
I moved here because I was told that the Cobb County schools are the best in Georgia - LOL.

Idiot's Advocate
My site (under construction)
CaboWaboAddict is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 8th September 2004, 05:53   #14
THPSFG
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: :morF
Posts: 79
Here's the thing about evolution vs. creationism, you cannot deny that animals or people are evolving. you can deny however that people just appeared out of no where. denying evolution is like denying gravity, ill push you off a bridge just to prove you wrong.
THPSFG is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14th January 2005, 15:39   #15
CaboWaboAddict
Forum Sot
(Major Dude)
 
CaboWaboAddict's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Marietta, Ga. U.S.A.
Posts: 3,915
*Update*

A judge in Georgia has ordered the schools here to remove the "Evolution is a theory" stickers from the textbooks!

Yah!

Idiot's Advocate
My site (under construction)
CaboWaboAddict is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14th January 2005, 17:07   #16
Wolfgang
Forum King
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 3,069
Good! But it still won't change the minds of those dumbass closed-minded parents.
Wolfgang is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14th January 2005, 19:00   #17
CaboWaboAddict
Forum Sot
(Major Dude)
 
CaboWaboAddict's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Marietta, Ga. U.S.A.
Posts: 3,915
Maybe, just maybe, some of the close-mindedness won't get passed on to the next generation.

edit:
It may not be the decision I had hoped for...

full story

Basically, the judge disagreed with the wording. He said they used the wording a religious group proposed... so it appeared the school board was siding with the group.

Idiot's Advocate
My site (under construction)

Last edited by CaboWaboAddict; 14th January 2005 at 19:37.
CaboWaboAddict is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14th January 2005, 21:47   #18
missyob
Angel of Winamp
 
missyob's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: The Winamp House
Posts: 4,578
Great, maybe it will be Fulton County schools next? (I live the next county over from CaboWaboAddict.).

BTW Cobb county schools are rated the highest in the state of GA.
~ Missy
missyob is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14th January 2005, 21:53   #19
CaboWaboAddict
Forum Sot
(Major Dude)
 
CaboWaboAddict's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Marietta, Ga. U.S.A.
Posts: 3,915
But Ga schools are the 2nd worst in the nation... but we beat DC!

Idiot's Advocate
My site (under construction)
CaboWaboAddict is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15th January 2005, 03:17   #20
Vytas
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Santa Clarita, CA USA
Posts: 52
It's simple to prove "variation" within the same gene pool, as in varying the kinds of dogs. It is quite a different thing to prove "evolution". What kind of evolution do you BELIEVE in? The very slow kind or the fast "in-spurts" kind? Evolution IS a theory. It can NOT be proven. Some people BELIEVE in it because they don't want to be held accountable to a creator, plain and simple.
Explain to me how or why a pair of EYES would or could evolve if they would be completely useless and even a liability before they ever started working. We human beings can't even come close to creating a basic living cell from scratch. Have you ever closely examined how complex and awesome the simplest living cell is?
I challenge you to THINK for yourself about this. Stop repeating what someone else with an agenda stuffed into your brain.
Vytas is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15th January 2005, 03:27   #21
shakey_snake
Forum Domo
 
shakey_snake's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Everyone, get over here for the picture!
Posts: 4,313
Although I agree with you Vytas, be prepared to respond, otherwise you're not doing anyone any favors.


elevatorladyelevatorladyelevatorladyelevatorladyelevatorladylevitateme
shakey_snake is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15th January 2005, 03:33   #22
gaekwad2
Foorum King
 
gaekwad2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: bar2000
Posts: 11,411
For a start, the difference between science and religion is that science doesn't have to be BELIEVEd in.

Once you've understood that we can talk further.

gaekwad2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15th January 2005, 03:42   #23
Vytas
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Santa Clarita, CA USA
Posts: 52
Oh really? Do you even know what true science is? Are you familiar with the scientific method? Science involves observation. Please show me the proof FOR evolution. Tell me: WHO has observed evolution. I'm not talking about variation here. THINK, don't parrot someone else! Show me the tons of fossil evidence for evolution that Darwin predicted. It's not there.
Vytas is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15th January 2005, 04:03   #24
gaekwad2
Foorum King
 
gaekwad2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: bar2000
Posts: 11,411
Eh? There are more than a few tons of fossils, troll.

I probably know a bit more about science than you if you think that a theory has to be based on proof.

But I'm sure you have a PROOF for creation.
gaekwad2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15th January 2005, 04:12   #25
Vytas
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Santa Clarita, CA USA
Posts: 52
You just admitted that evolution is a theory. Thank you!
A theory is something that is NOT proven. It requires BELIEF. You may even call it FAITH. You still have not shown me any proof for evolution. And don't change the subject. I'm trying to get you to THINK.
Vytas is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15th January 2005, 08:59   #26
will
Nullsoft Newbie (Moderator)
 
will's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Sheffield, England
Posts: 5,569
Quote:
Originally posted by Vytas
Explain to me how or why a pair of EYES would or could evolve if they would be completely useless and even a liability before they ever started working.
You need to ask yourself this: how useful would a light sensitive patch of skin be?

The answer is very useful, it would allow an animal, for example, to know if it was undercover or not.

This kind of primitive eye exists in many organisms today.

This light sensitive patch of skin would improve as evolution went forwards perhaps in a not dissimilar way to this (may be inaccurate, i'm not a biologist):
Better sensitivity
concave to focus light
closes all the way round to form a "pinhole camera" effect (this focus's light way better)
filled with fluid (later to become jelly) to improve optical characteristics
etc etc etc.

I could do this for pretty much any so called "problem" with evolution, which is why scientists know evolution WORKS.

DO NOT PM ME WITH TECH SUPPORT QUESTIONS
will is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15th January 2005, 09:10   #27
will
Nullsoft Newbie (Moderator)
 
will's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Sheffield, England
Posts: 5,569
Quote:
Originally posted by Vytas
You just admitted that evolution is a theory. Thank you!
A theory is something that is NOT proven. It requires BELIEF. You may even call it FAITH. You still have not shown me any proof for evolution. And don't change the subject. I'm trying to get you to THINK.
Creationists say this a lot. "Theorys arn't proof", well I got news for you jack, science isn't in the business of proof in a strict sense, science proves nothing.

What science IS in the business of is predicting. For example, Einstein, in his theory of special relativity, used the Michealson-Moorly results to postulate that the speed of light was invariant. He used this and a lot of maths to predict that the mass of an object would increase as it sped up. This was later shown to happen with electrons in particle accelerators. (There are many parts missing from this quick explanation, i encorage anyone to reseach this theory, because it is very interesting and not that hard to understand).

What a scientific theory, to become accepted by the comminity at large (through the system of research and publishing of papers) has to do is this: Explain some unexplained aspect of science, make predictions. These predictions have to then to be shown to be correct. After that, the whole study must be subject to peer review. (Including other people repeating the experiments).

This is just the start of a long road to becoming accepted into our scientific models of the world.

The fact that you raise this issue shows to me one simple thing: YOU KNOW LITTLE ABOUT THE PHILOSOPHY OF SCIENCE.

Go read up on it before you respond to this post.

[edit] Call me a parrot if you will, but I actually understand how science, evolution and relativity works. Should i have enough time on my hands, I could repeat all the experiments required to show evolution or relativity. The great thing about science is that many different people have done this already. [/edit]

DO NOT PM ME WITH TECH SUPPORT QUESTIONS
will is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15th January 2005, 10:34   #28
Spazz333
Major Dude
 
Spazz333's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Limbo
Posts: 1,498
I have to say I believe in evolution for the first part. Where I get confused is evolution requires an organism to even start. Which is where I semi believe in creationism, but to have a god you need an beginnning, but to have a beginning you need a god, but to have a god you need a beginning <repeat>. I just default to a confused agnostic in favor of sanity.

Spazz333 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15th January 2005, 10:52   #29
will
Nullsoft Newbie (Moderator)
 
will's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Sheffield, England
Posts: 5,569
I see your point Spazz (while I don't quite agree*). The issue raised is why do creationists fail to attribute the most beautifully simple and effective process in existance to their god?

* I don't think any god had anything to do with our creation. The first "living" organism, IMO, was a large organic molecule catalzing various reactions. Of course, nobody has any evidence either way, seen as it happened so long ago. I just think that this is the most likely.

DO NOT PM ME WITH TECH SUPPORT QUESTIONS
will is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15th January 2005, 11:15   #30
gaekwad2
Foorum King
 
gaekwad2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: bar2000
Posts: 11,411
Quote:
Originally posted by Vytas
You just admitted that evolution is a theory. Thank you!
A theory is something that is NOT proven. It requires BELIEF. You may even call it FAITH. You still have not shown me any proof for evolution. And don't change the subject. I'm trying to get you to THINK.
You've just proven again that you don't understand science at all.

As will said it's not about an absolute proof. In fact the scientific method is the exact opposite of aspiring, and believing in, such a thing. Science works by constantly questioning and challenging and treating any 'truth' as a preliminary theory that's only valid until something better comes along.

In contrast, creationism isn't even that. It requires absolute faith (or complete lack of understanding of nature, or both) because there just isn't any evidence for it at all.
gaekwad2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15th January 2005, 11:38   #31
whiteflip
Post Master General
(Forum King)
 
whiteflip's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Seattle, Now Las Vegas
Posts: 6,032
The first eyes started out as motion sensors. They would sense changes in light and flee acordingly. This of course happened in the ocean and there are fishes with primitive eyes. There are also very small organisims with primitive eyes. No liability but an adaptation that proved more successful than no eyes.

Also blah blah blah photo bioluminesence requires a more complex eye as it becomes more complex.

And humans have gottten close to creating living cells. We can get the membrane down and fill it with stuff. We are also getting closer to tiny robots that move atoms and large robots with artificial intellegence.

Also I feel this resurgence in religion is coming at the cause of scientific progress. Whats the deal? Its like a crusade is about to start where a bunch of angry Christains burn down universities of knowledge and tourch some abortion clinics in the name of God. Its almost becoming radical. School is for the arts and the sciences. Not for religion. They should remain seperate.

I'm Back?
whiteflip is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15th January 2005, 11:49   #32
SSJ4 Gogitta
Followed by Gnomes
(Forum King)
 
SSJ4 Gogitta's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: West Virginia Googolplex: 10^10¹°° FB:/SSJ4.DominusDeus DeviantArt: DominusDeus XboX GT: A Wild Meeseeks Playstation 4: DominusDeus
Posts: 7,160
Send a message via AIM to SSJ4 Gogitta
Quote:
Originally posted by THPSFG
I'm going to reveal information to you that is going to be very disturbing... Despite a contsitution that said seperate religion from state, it's not happening anymore. This is the scariest time in our nations history.
The ONLY mention of "seperation of church and state" is in a letter written by Thomas Jefferson. "Seperation of church and state" isn't even IN the Constitution, or any other founding document of the US.

Quote:
Thomas Jefferson wrote:

Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man and his God, that he owes account to none other for faith or his worship, that the legislative powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with solemn reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should ‘make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,’ thus building a wall of separation between Church and State.

SSJ4 Gogitta is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15th January 2005, 17:33   #33
nybergh
Dialup Junkie
(Major Dude)
 
nybergh's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Helsinki, Finland
Posts: 1,219
Quote:
Originally posted by SSJ4 Gogitta
The ONLY mention of "seperation of church and state" is in a letter written by Thomas Jefferson. "Seperation of church and state" isn't even IN the Constitution, or any other founding document of the US.
Yikes!

But from a european point of view (huh, how nice isn't it to live in europe in these days) it's funny to see how extreme people get with these things. I know that there are lots of creationism-friendly people even in my country, but they aren't agressive like in the U.S.
nybergh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15th January 2005, 17:49   #34
shakey_snake
Forum Domo
 
shakey_snake's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Everyone, get over here for the picture!
Posts: 4,313
That would be because they know that bickering about it never does anyone any good.


elevatorladyelevatorladyelevatorladyelevatorladyelevatorladylevitateme
shakey_snake is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15th January 2005, 18:00   #35
LollipopLustKil
Insomniac
(Forum King)
 
LollipopLustKil's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Ohio
Posts: 3,033
Send a message via AIM to LollipopLustKil
Anyone ever think about extraterrestrials? Don't just toss the idea away either, seriously think about it for a minute.

We jsut sent a probe over to Titan, and supposedly it's said Titan is a bit like Earth used to be over 3.8 billion years ago. Let's say we used Titan later in the future, and let it evolve on it's own, while we watch and take notes of how it went.

No one ever thought about extraterrestrials doing this to Earth? It sounds almost impossible at first, and downright stuid actually until you actually think about the odds of it happening.

What are the odds of Earth being the only planet in the Universe to hold life-forms? Titan appears to be able to do this, just not for awhile. I'm sure somewhere out there, is another planet with life-forms. I'm also sure many of them are advanced way more than we are.

Scotty Doesn't Know
LollipopLustKil is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15th January 2005, 18:37   #36
manthabeats
Winamp's Cinematographer
(Major Dude)
 
manthabeats's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Hollywood (in 3-6 years)
Posts: 655
Send a message via Yahoo to manthabeats
I agree lolli. Until you take an astronomy class (or at least see the beginning of the movie Contact) you really have no idea how big the universe is. That being said, there is a high possibility that there is life on other planets that we have yet to discover. I think thats a good idea with Titan, its pretty similar to our Earth. I would also like to see Mars be terraformed.

As far as creationism, it is a theory, albiet very flawed with all of the scientific evidence to boot, yet evolution is a theory too, plain and simple. I think schools should stick to the seperation of church and state, leave creationism to be taught in church and let the kid decide.

Currently filming: Youtube stuff
My Website
manthabeats is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15th January 2005, 20:06   #37
bgesley
Major Dude
 
bgesley's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: without wax
Posts: 948
Send a message via AIM to bgesley
Good point Lolli, but any creationist will tell you that "God probably created that life as well. He's not just the God of earth, he's the god of all things."

Come on, everyone here knows to very certain TRUTHS. Them being that Christianity has existed for thousands of years because of a solid unbreakable foundation of beliefs. They have a response and answer to any question you give them. This is the exact same as science. Science has existed (as if it was ever created/started :P) because it too has a solid unbreakable foundation of beliefs. You can't disprove the existence of gravity just as well as you can't disprove the existence of God.

EVEN! Even IF each subject wasn't solid or unbreakable, those who truly beleive in it will never stray away from their belief/opinion even for a small bit.

Tho in my opinion the difference between straying a little bit from what we know as truth would be more damaging to science than it would be to religion.

For example, what if the monk who transcribed the Book of Genesis was simply incorrect in re-telling the story? or imbelished? or flat out lied? or made the book complete fiction? Around that time it wasn't a lot of people writing those kinds of books (or even knew how to write..or even read), so writing a book was incredibly powerful and should have only been the responsibility of powerful people. Secondly we also have to understand that all the books in the bible are NOT all the books written for the bible( ie. Dead sea scrolls, diary of magdalen, and there must certaintly be a book that Jesus must've written himself). Is it so implausible that the person who wrote the book of genesis did so to further secure the ongoing power of the church and the subject of truth or accuracy would be secondary?

Lets jsut assume that I somehow gave an example that would show a small flaw in evolution. In order for that flaw to exist it would have to disprove the existence of tons of fossils, tons of coincidences, tons of relations, tons and tons of other truths/proofs that we have found by scientific search.

Now thats just thinking about it for a second, but damn why didn't the monk mention that dinosaurs came before god created man and woman?

bgesley is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15th January 2005, 20:56   #38
manthabeats
Winamp's Cinematographer
(Major Dude)
 
manthabeats's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Hollywood (in 3-6 years)
Posts: 655
Send a message via Yahoo to manthabeats
Thats the problem I have with the bible, where is the mention of the dinosaurs, and the 65+ million years in between dinosaurs and man. Also, the bible often contradicts itself.

Currently filming: Youtube stuff
My Website
manthabeats is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15th January 2005, 21:17   #39
gaekwad2
Foorum King
 
gaekwad2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: bar2000
Posts: 11,411
Quote:
Originally posted by bgesley
Come on, everyone here knows to very certain TRUTHS. Them being that Christianity has existed for thousands of years because of a solid unbreakable foundation of beliefs. They have a response and answer to any question you give them. This is the exact same as science. Science has existed (as if it was ever created/started :P) because it too has a solid unbreakable foundation of beliefs.
That's just wrong.

The very base of science is that everything has to be verifiable and that there are no unchangeable foundations.

It's a method that has evolved over time because it proved to be extremely reliable and usable.

And btw, Einstein has (in a way*) disproved Newton's laws of gravity.

Belief has absolutely no place in science (that doesn't mean a scientist can't be a believer, he just has to be able to keep science and faith separated).


*Not really because Newton was clever enough to state that bodies behave as if there was a force between them, called gravity.
gaekwad2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15th January 2005, 21:37   #40
shakey_snake
Forum Domo
 
shakey_snake's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Everyone, get over here for the picture!
Posts: 4,313
I think what he was getting at is the idea that you do have a certain amount of faith in the scientific method's ability to approximate real truth.
--------------
(And gaekwad,this is by all means a disscusion of metaphysics; dumbing it down with scientific jargon is not doing yourself a favor)


elevatorladyelevatorladyelevatorladyelevatorladyelevatorladylevitateme
shakey_snake is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply
Go Back   Winamp & Shoutcast Forums > Community Center > Breaking News

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump