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Old 21st May 2006, 15:24   #41
Mr_007
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Quote:
Originally posted by Wildrose-Wally
You got to be kidding. Do you have any idea of the leanings of the government party?

Maybe the Arabs should be giving some support to the Palestinians, although the Arabs would rather see them rot in camps all over the middle east. Refugees after 40 years are not really refugees, are they. They are political play pieces, to be used when the opportunity presents itself.

At one time it used to be if territory was conquered during a war, too bad, you lost.

Israel, which was attacked from all sides a number of times and won (and did take territory in the process) was told to give it back. On whose authority? United Nations?
Sorry, but I don't believe in any authority for that goddammned organization, where most of the members don't believe in democracy.

And let's be fair, eh, Israel did give territory back to Egypt, after Egypt signed a peace treaty with them.

When are Syria, Jordan, others going to sign peace treaties?

Maybe they will also get their territory back that they lost because they made war on Israel.
This is really fact wildrose Wally
You forgot iran in your speak.
also i think we should ready for democracy
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Old 21st May 2006, 16:14   #42
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Re: Re: Germany didn't attack us either

Quote:
Originally posted by spaceplay
if the USA had done that than you'd be speaking Japanese now, and the whole of your country would be a provence of the great Nippon empire.

don't post things that "could have been or might have been" if they don't fit in the discussion at all.
Don't fit in the discussion at all? This is EXACTLY what the discussion is about!
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Old 21st May 2006, 17:21   #43
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Originally posted by Wildrose-Wally
Bullshit.
Most Iraquis like the freedoms they have now. Some rotten apples do exist, but most terrorist operating in Iraq right now are from all over the middle east.
Do you really know? Does anybody know? I was just repeating something I heard on NPR. The insurgents may not know who the insurgents are.
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Old 21st May 2006, 17:42   #44
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Yeah, NPR news isn't slanted. But then again, is there any news source that isn't biased (right or left)?
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Old 21st May 2006, 20:24   #45
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Germany was an official ally of Japan so the US going to war against Germany made sense after Japan attacked the US.
Iraq was not an ally of Al Qaeda.

I like how Neil Young utilized the line about Bush hijacking our religion. The Christian standard is to be as peaceful as possible, not to jump into war with a nation which is already castrated by no-fly zones and sanctions.

What are the odds of Bush winning a Nobel peace prize? It is interesting to note that former Palestinian leader Yasser Arafat won a Nobel peace prize. So who would the Prince Of Peace approve of? As Neil Young sang in another of his songs, "There's more to the picture than meets the eye."

Bush's approval rating is dismally low, so whoever said that people like us are in the minority is not in touch with what we call reality.
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Old 21st May 2006, 20:53   #46
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Of course

Guess we'll have to agree to disagree. You won't change my mind and I won't change yours. But if you this Iraq wasn't an ally of the terrorists, then safe haven and providing munitions must have been done by the anti-terrist regime of Iraq.
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Old 21st May 2006, 22:53   #47
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The political ping pong ball that our involvement in the middle east gives us is disturbing. I think the left would grasp at any straw. Blaming George Bush for a war that had unanimous support in our legislature is preposterous.

Even John Kerry in his losing bid for the presidency, voted for it. The idea that liberals could somehow wave a magic wand and stop this mess is downright silly.

What are you going to do that's different?. Mr. Kerry gave us a resounding .... DUH?.....

Hence the only people less popular than a horny dog in a bathing suit contest are the democrats. It's about the only thing that the US agrees on. Our politicians suck.

Was the war perhaps ill advised?. To be sure. But then nobody asked me. Is there a way out that isn't a giant cluster F*ck?. I doubt it.

BUT THIS WAS THE WISDOM OF BOTH OF OUR POLITICAL PARTIES!.

Did Nixon and Reagan screw up?. And did Clinton have his thumb up his ass?. You decide. But I'm sure as hell not handing out any brownie buttons to the crew running the US for the 4 decades I've been looking at it.

Can we effect change in the middle east?. I remember when I went to college with Iraqis and Iranians. They couldn't drive for shit, they treated women bad, but they drove Trans Ams, were decent scientists, and we mostly happy to be free men. There is an exception for the women they married. Very good, decent fathers and husbands.

I think that the idea that we may be able to help them get back their freedom is a good one and worthy of the sacrifice of some lives. Or as close as it could be to get our kids killed.

The soldiers there think their cause is worthy. And I'm sure as hell gonna find trouble with giving them less support, than more.

Did we need to starve another million children to death under the UN trade sanctions or did we need to find some way to act?.

If I had these answers, I'd be the president. But tucking tail and running from this shows a cowardice that I can't stomach.

If we are to war, we should attack this with such an overwhelming force that it strikes fear in petty dictators.

Last edited by rockouthippie; 21st May 2006 at 23:36.
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Old 22nd May 2006, 03:40   #48
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Well Said

If it weren't for the innocents over there, I'd say let's turn all that sand into glass with extreme heat. lol Now that would be some massive force. Oh, and in regards to the above writing, let's not stop with the Presidents mentioned. This goes back to Munich Germany during the Olympics...the modern world's first look at true terrorism. Every President since then has let crap slide...but I will give a bye to President Reagan since he was busy dealing with the commies. Nixon was too worried about himself, Ford wasn't there long enough, Bush Sr. should have known better - a former head of the CIA. Now Carter...that is a whole different issue. "Give 'em money and food and they'll thank us instead of kill us". Didn't work.
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Old 22nd May 2006, 08:41   #49
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Quote:
Originally posted by rockouthippie
The political ping pong ball that our involvement in the middle east gives us is disturbing. I think the left would grasp at any straw. Blaming George Bush for a war that had unanimous support in our legislature is preposterous.
Politicians. Are. Not. To. Be. Trusted.

Do you really think that it'd be any different if the Democrats were in power? The two parties are very, very similar in terms of politics, regardless of how they like to publicise themselves.

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Old 22nd May 2006, 19:26   #50
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Carter was another who won a Nobel peace prize and who Christ surely shines on. Carter is a true Christian, not a hijacker of the faith like Dubya.

The Saddam regime could have been blotted out with a covert CIA operation. Another option would have been to immediately re-deploy outside of that theater after "shock & awe" toppled them. Staying there makes US soldiers sitting ducks. This is what smart, former soldiers like Murtha have been saying and what idiotic never-soldiers like Bush & Cheney ignore.

You have to realize that people like Bush & Cheney are more about the security of the few than the security of the many.
People like him would not serve on the front lines in Vietnam and would not fight on the front lines of this war either if faced with that. That is the acid test people like us look at.

Do you realize how many operations have been conducted in this war? There has been "operation this" and "operation that", so many names it's a joke and it all stays the same at the end of the day.

It seems that it would take an iron-fisted Roman Empire type of rule to control those people. You think the US is up for something like that? Better to make friends out of them.
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Old 23rd May 2006, 02:01   #51
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Regarding Christ shiting on Carter and Dubya highjacking the faith...not spoken like a Christian. Judgement should be done by no one but God. Personally, I think both men are good Christians.

Regarding Saddam being blotted out with a covert CIA operation - Can't do that. Liberals like Carter outlawed that. They want us to be safe, but won't allow us to do what it takes to be safe. Remember - be kind while questioning our enemies who want to kill us...
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Old 23rd May 2006, 15:00   #52
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Re: Re: Germany didn't attack us either

Quote:
Originally posted by spaceplay
if the USA had done that than you'd be speaking Japanese now, and the whole of your country would be a provence of the great Nippon empire.

don't post things that "could have been or might have been" if they don't fit in the discussion at all.
Not gonna read the rest of this thread, but...

HAHAHAHAHAHA.

You have no idea how fucking pigheaded Americans are, nor well-armed its citizens are (and were). Invading the United States would be like facing a 25,000,000+ man army (that's much less than the number of people we could arm with citizen's weaponry, back then), and disregarding the military might that we commanded even back then, that's basically impossible to invade. Our country is basically invasion-proof, due partially to its military and industrial might, its sparse population density, the fact that we had (and have) a shitload of guns, and the fact that 1776 isn't that far back in American minds.

Don't post things that "could have been or might have been" if you don't have any idea what you're talking about.

Freedom of speech is the basic freedom of humanity. When you've lost that, you've lost everything.
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Old 23rd May 2006, 18:59   #53
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Why would breaking laws by utilizing a CIA operation be a factor to an administration which has been more than willing to break the law to push their agenda? If they're willing to tap the lines of millions of Americans without warrants, surely a CIA operation to take out Saddam wouldn't have been a big deal.

Come on now. Like John Lennon sang, "Gimme Some Truth". The war with Iraq stemmed from personal concerns, not national ones. Saddam had tried to have Dubya's dad assassinated, and that in itself was enough reason for Dubya to put many thousands of American lives on the line. If Saddam was a true enemy of all Americans, there is no way he would have been turned over to his own people for judgement. If Bin Laden is ever captured, you think he would be turned over to anyone? No way.

It might be God's place to judge the eternal destiny of a soul, but it's appropo for humans to make assessments about the character of other humans. Can't agree that Dubya is as good a Christian as Jimmy Carter. In fact, i'd have to concur with the assessment of the Rolling Stones in their song "Sweet Neo Con" in which Jagger sings "You call yourself a Christian. I think that you're a hypocrite. You say you are a patriot. I think that you're a crock of (you know what)".

Last edited by anandamide; 23rd May 2006 at 19:42.
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Old 24th May 2006, 10:26   #54
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Re: Re: Re: Germany didn't attack us either

Quote:
Originally posted by xzxzzx
Not gonna read the rest of this thread, but...

HAHAHAHAHAHA.

You have no idea how fucking pigheaded Americans are, nor well-armed its citizens are (and were). Invading the United States would be like facing a 25,000,000+ man army (that's much less than the number of people we could arm with citizen's weaponry, back then), and disregarding the military might that we commanded even back then, that's basically impossible to invade. Our country is basically invasion-proof, due partially to its military and industrial might, its sparse population density, the fact that we had (and have) a shitload of guns, and the fact that 1776 isn't that far back in American minds.

Don't post things that "could have been or might have been" if you don't have any idea what you're talking about.
By not the reading the rest of the thread, you totally missed out on my point on posting this.

the whole thread was based on what might have been or what could have been.
I only posted this to show that might have and could have are not actual to the nowdays situation.

If we the dutch never traded New Amsterdam with the English , the world would be speaking dutch today

So , we traded New Amsterdam with the English that's why it's known today as New York.

the whole point of posting this was, don't assume things if there is a might be or would be situation.
the part about Japan was only to underline my statement.

if you missed out on that part, you missed out on the entire point , and that makes your post somewhat misplaced.

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Old 24th May 2006, 15:53   #55
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Germany didn't attack us either

Quote:
Originally posted by spaceplay
By not the reading the rest of the thread, you totally missed out on my point on posting this.

...

the whole point of posting this was, don't assume things if there is a might be or would be situation.
the part about Japan was only to underline my statement.

if you missed out on that part, you missed out on the entire point , and that makes your post somewhat misplaced.
I read the post you were quoting, and much of the thread before it. I got bored of people spouting useless talk about things they don't really know anything about, while ignoring each other and arguing about things the other person isn't even taklking about. I think you misunderstood this:
Quote:
Germany didn't attack the U.S. either. Guess we should have stayed out of World War II.

Freedom of speech is the basic freedom of humanity. When you've lost that, you've lost everything.
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Old 24th May 2006, 18:56   #56
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Just realized that Dupya is an even better nickname for the president than Dubya because Dupya is very close to "Dupe Ya". Thank you, Lord Jesus, for that revelation.
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Old 26th May 2006, 16:07   #57
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did you come to that via divine typo intervention?
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Old 27th May 2006, 19:15   #58
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Please forgive any of my errors because i am merely the 7000 series robo-troll, not the top of the line 9000 series.
8>

What about this incident of US soldiers killing a bunch of Iraqi men, women and children IN COLD BLOOD? War gets so messy that soldiers can tend to freak out at times. Those who criticized Kerry for making those sort of claims about the Vietnam War owe him a major apology. I am so disappointed in the Americans who voted Bush into office rather than JFK-2, John F Kerry.

Now join the musical anti-war movement, on the double. THAT'S AN ORDER!
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Old 27th May 2006, 19:43   #59
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Quote:
Originally posted by anandamide

Come on now. Like John Lennon sang, "Gimme Some Truth". The war with Iraq stemmed from personal concerns, not national ones. Saddam had tried to have Dubya's dad assassinated, and that in itself was enough reason for Dubya to put many thousands of American lives on the line.
That is the biggest pants load I've heard in a long time. If we want to look at a personal matter, it's the democrats attacking George Bush over stuff they voted for too.

They're offended that america is tired of riding a gay donkey. They'll grasp at any straw to reinstate their failed leftism, rather than catering to the people that hire them.

But they'll keep mudslinging and trot Hillary out to make sure that they lose yet more elections.

Wake up. America is pretty liberal, BUT NOT THAT MUCH.....

Unless you are in San Francisco or New York. ........ Luckily people who live other places have a vote.

What I find strange is that their unemployment makes them even more left..... and more angry.... and more making things a personal matter .....
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Old 28th May 2006, 18:06   #60
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Re: Re: Re: Germany didn't attack us either

Quote:
Originally posted by xzxzzx
...and the fact that 1776 isn't that far back in American minds.
I think I'm going to have to disagree with that. I'm in High School and in history classes you don't learn to a great extent about the colonial period. You learn about the Progressive Era and Civil Rights Movement. All great stuff, but if we aren't educated on how our government was created and the foundations thereof. We are going to lose our principles of Democracy.

Also, on the History Channel a while back. They did a "100 Greatest Americans". The number one person wasn't a man from that era, not even number two. One and two, respectfully, were Roland Regan and Abraham Lincoln. Both Hero's in my eyes, since they kept this country together. However, this country wouldn't exist if it hadn't been for our Founding Fathers, in perticular George Washington. Who refused to become a king-like figure when they started our government. How many people can you name who, when presented with king-like powers refused?

Perhaps some have true Democratic ideals in their brains'. But, I wouldn't give enough credit to the American people to say that. Considering how slothful we all have become.
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Old 28th May 2006, 19:46   #61
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No matter what side of the issue you are on, this very vocal opposition to the American presence in Iraq could very well cost lives.

During the Vietnam war, the "other" side was ready to negotiate on a number of occasions, until they heard the latest news on the radio about the American peace movement and American opposition to the war. They resolved not to negotiate, and the war was prolonged and eventually lost.

Is the same going to happen in Iraq?

For the sake of the soldiers fighting there, shut up for a while untill they are back home. That would give them a lot better chance on surviving and winning this war.
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Old 28th May 2006, 19:58   #62
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rockouthippie is surely not sounding like a hippy at all and perhaps should consider a name change to rightwinghackie.

It's Dubya who has shown himself to be "queer for oil" when he held hands with that Saudi prince for quite a while in a garden, not very becoming at all for a supposedly macho Texan, truly a creepy image.

It was New York which suffered the most from the 9-11 attacks, yet that state went for Kerry in the 2004 election. Think long and hard about that. New Yorkers are very smart folks.

Clinton-Gore held the White House for 8 years and can do so again, with Gore as president and Hillary as vp this time. From there, Hillary can make her way into the presidency herself. Gore has already defeated Bush in the popular vote in 2000 and would have been president already if not for the stupid electoral college.

If a Republican ticket like Giuliani-Dole defeats Gore-Clinton, that wouldn't be so bad. I just can't wait for our national nightmare of the Bush-Cheney government to be over. Cheney's approval ratings are in the teens!
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Old 28th May 2006, 22:02   #63
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Quote:
Originally posted by anandamide
Gore-Clinton
That has got to be the funniest thing I have heard in a week.

I wish that would happen. The absolute crushing defeat might bring the democratic party back to it's senses.
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Old 29th May 2006, 19:30   #64
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We're glad we are amusing you, but people took Hitler as a joke, too, and they sure weren't laughing in the end. Seriously though, Gore-Clinton would be a strong ticket again. There are even quite a few red-neck hick men out there who have surprisingly expressed support for Hillary as president. They must find her cute or something.
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Old 29th May 2006, 20:45   #65
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Yes, we took Hitler as a joke, just as people like you would like to take Sadam and the Ayatollahs as a joke. Wave peace signs as the islamic radicals build an even stronger power base as Hitler did.

Watch the mass murder, until it's in your back yard. Maybe you think we should have let Sadam keep Kuwait?. Maybe you think we should have let Sadam gas the Kurds at will.

The war in Iraq is no longer against Iraqis. Other powers have stepped in to stir the pot. Maybe you think the interference of Sadam and Iraq in the peace process of Palestine was a good thing.

Our enemies have made their goal clear. That is to drive Israel into the sea, and kill as many of us infidels as they possibly can.

When you pave a peace picket sign at them, they would murder you just the same. The dissidents have indeed kidnapped anti war campaigners and murdered them with the same zeal they would kill american soldiers.

Terror nations, including Iran and Iraq, pay bounties to suicide bombers to attack US installations abroad.

Nothing about this is new. Indeed thousands of our servicemen have been killed in terror attacks in foreign lands while being non-combatants over the last couple of decades.

The difference is now we are trying to do something about it. Even the democrats agreed. But now they want to blame it on the GOP.

This is the right war at the right time, despite what Senator Kerry says.

70% of the armed forces that are abroad wanted to trust their fate to George Bush. I'll go with their vote.
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Old 30th May 2006, 19:45   #66
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People like us do not at all take people like Saddam as a joke. You should look deeper into things. The Bush family made its fortune via arms sales to Hitler. And it is people like Rumsfeld who were at one time shaking hands with Saddam when the US was supporting Iraq in its war against Iran. The thing which has to be done is to stop making Frankenstein monsters like Hitler and Saddam.

It is greed which is leading this world toward a Karma-geddon. Maybe that true mother of all battles is indeed inevitable, as the Bible predicts.
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Old 31st May 2006, 00:28   #67
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The penetration of the skull and bones, freemasonry, nazis, the thules, the illuminati etc. are certainly not limited to the Bush family.

Since Kerry is also a member of the skull and bones and is GBs cousin...... This blight penetrates the british royals as well.

Groups of elitists, that think we peasants are scum, are certainly not limited to the GOP.

You are comparing oranges and oranges.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fritz_Thyssen

Prescott Bush did have dealings with Fritz Thyssen who fled germany. denouncing the nazis, before the war. When Prescott Bush had dealings with the germans, it was before that was illegal. This was an arrangement that predated the nazi movement.

Thyssen, despite losing some lawsuits over the war and being branded a nazi, was quite vocal about his opposition to persecuting jews. Many germans supported national socialism before they knew it's final form.

Germany did employ concentration camp labor at the steel plants that were FORMERLY under the control of Thyssen steel. That's FORMERLY, as Thyssen was already gone and these industrial works had been seized by germany. The assets in american banks being seized by our government, including those of PB.

By the time the war started Prescott Bush, Thyssen and their assets were seized by one government or the other.

If you want to say anything about Prescott Bush, it's basically that he had the misfortune of owning interests in some german steel plants prior to WWII. He also knew some germans.

As with our president, no wrongdoing was ever proven, although people with obvious political motives involved themselves in mudslinging. The mudslinging was effective enough that Prescott never sought the presidency himself.

If our president is a criminal, I want to see a warrant. Why aren't there any?. Because no one has proved he has done anything illegal. And I doubt they will.

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Old 31st May 2006, 03:31   #68
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Quote:
Originally posted by anandamide
There are even quite a few red-neck hick men out there who have surprisingly expressed support for Hillary as president. They must find her cute or something.
I certainly find you offensive or something. Or I would, if I ever got offended by things on internet forums.

Saying that, I certainly hope that you are not the political creature your discourse implies that you are.
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Old 31st May 2006, 19:58   #69
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THe reason Bush has not been arrested is that he has been shielded by Republican majorities in both houses of Congress. Stay tuned if those majorities are lost in the next election. The way things are looking, that is liable to happen unless the Republicans have found a way to tamper with voting machines. I say that seriously. People like me are that concerned about how far these power-obsessed people are willing to go. We don't want the United States to be the United Snakes.

The US has been subjected to terrorism because much of the Arab-Muslim world perceives the US to be the head of a snake whose tail is Israel. This does not have to be so. Let's keep digging into this. I thank everyone for their participation even though many have not agreed at all with my perspective. Noone here can be criticized if they are expressing their honest viewpoints like i am.
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Old 31st May 2006, 21:08   #70
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Quote:
Originally posted by anandamide
THe reason Bush has not been arrested is that he has been shielded by Republican majorities in both houses of Congress. Stay tuned if those majorities are lost in the next election.
Is that sort of how Clinton avoided prosecution for PROVEN PERJURY?. You or I would be just about getting out of prison now.

Quote:
Originally posted by anandamide
The US has been subjected to terrorism because much of the Arab-Muslim world perceives the US to be the head of a snake whose tail is Israel.[/B]
I think it's more that certain arabs and persians have found a power base in painting Israel and the United States as the "Great Satan".

As with the japanese and the germans, the only way to fight this unreasoning attitude is to make the people that embrace these beliefs DEAD or very afraid.

This is human nature. Appeasing bullies makes them bolder. Opening up a can of whoop ass, when you have tried to make peace (and we have) with no effect is the only recourse that works.

It worked for the germans, and it worked for the japanese. And every place that we appeased bullies, or gave them quarter, it failed.

Never run from a mean dog. Stand your ground or you'll get bit..... and the other dogs will think you're an easy mark.
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Old 1st June 2006, 19:49   #71
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Slick Willy's impeachment over his sexual antics in the 'Oral Office' and his denials about it are insignificant when compared to what Dupe-Ya has been up to.
Many are dying due to the latter's decisions and having their limbs blown off. Nixon's crimes were also insignificant when compared to Dupe-Ya. Maybe you should read the book "Worse Than Watergate".

Given the billion Muslims that exist, this guerilla war cannot be won militarily. The hearts of those people have to be won over and that cannot be done when prison inmates are tortured, civilians are killed in cold blood, newspapers are paid to print articles that are pro-US, etc.

In short, terrorism exists because of foreign occupation, so it cannot be stopped via occupation. Before the middle of the last century, what is now Israel was Palestine for roughly 2000 years, so it's understandable that the Arabs feel as shafted as they feel. Israel was a nation there before those 2000 years so they feel they have an ancient right to the land as well. The new leader of Iran has a nuclear program and has stated he'd like to see Israel wiped off the map. It's surely an alarming situation. How do you think it will play out?
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Old 1st June 2006, 20:54   #72
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Erm, you should really get all of your facts straight. Palestine (while being called like that from time to time, due to the Philistines) wasnt officially called that till the Romans expelled the Jews from Israel, and renamed the province to Syria Palaestina, pretty much to mock tham (they also tried to change Jerusalem to.. .hmmm... Aelia Capitolina I think). Arabs conquered and settled that region only in 635. 1371 years is a bit less than 2000 years (but it's still a lot).
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Old 1st June 2006, 21:28   #73
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Originally posted by anandamide
Slick Willy's impeachment over his sexual antics in the 'Oral Office' and his denials about it are insignificant when compared to what Dupe-Ya has been up to.
No one has proven that the president has committed any crime at all. Name one.

Quote:
Originally posted by anandamide w

Many are dying due to the latter's decisions and having their limbs blown off. Nixon's crimes were also insignificant when compared to Dupe-Ya. Maybe you should read the book "Worse Than Watergate".
Soldiers die. They also voted for Bush. Anti war people are not interested in the soldiers. They would as soon spit on them and call them "baby burners", as they did in Vietnam.

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Originally posted by anandamide

Given the billion Muslims that exist, this guerilla war cannot be won militarily. The hearts of those people have to be won over and that cannot be done when prison inmates are tortured, civilians are killed in cold blood, newspapers are paid to print articles that are pro-US, etc.
Then why do Iraq and Afghanistan have a government?. Why are Iraqis signing up in record numbers to be trained as police and soldiers. Their women risk death to organise their newly found political rights. If the Iraqis don't give up on the process of creating a benevolent government, then we should support them. The Iraqis have not given up. They want this reform. They want, like anyone else, to have a good life. And they prove it every day, as they are killed by bombs, when signing up to be the new police and military. The newest violence is not organised. It is sectarian violence caused by criminals in their own country. This can be stopped, despite countries like Iran that foster violence.

Quote:
Originally posted by anandamide
In short, terrorism exists because of foreign occupation, so it cannot be stopped via occupation.
Has anything here blown up lately?.

Quote:
Originally posted by anandamide
Before the middle of the last century, what is now Israel was Palestine for roughly 2000 years, so it's understandable that the Arabs feel as shafted as they feel.
[/B]
No it isn't understandable. Before Israel, that land was dirt. Most of it wouldn't grow a good scorpion. Thats demonstrated by how much infrastructure the Israelis have had to construct for people to survive there. This is radical islamic leaders gaining a power base by painting Israel as evil. And while the Palestinians are blowing up the Israelis, they are sipping a Pepsi, wearing levis, and a pair of Reeboks.

Quote:
Originally posted by anandamide Israel was a nation there before those 2000 years so they feel they have an ancient right to the land as well. The new leader of Iran has a nuclear program and has stated he'd like to see Israel wiped off the map. It's surely an alarming situation. How do you think it will play out? [/B]
That depends on whether the west has enough balls to fix the problem. You'd think this was Vietnam. 50,000 are not dead this time. It's 2500. It's still more dangerous to be a taxi driver in New York.

The defeatism that liberals espouse is ill advised. It is motivated solely by their unemployment. And it is treason. I believe that we can effect change in the middle east. We dare not lose.

If successful, George Bush will be known as the most heroic president that ever was. If he fails, it will be because we didn't have the resolve or courage to face doing the right thing. That is to help the Iraqis to gain a brave future as our friends.

A soldier understands risk. It isn't mostly they that feign being appalled by the deaths of their fallen comrades. They meet their fate with dignity, honor and their sense of duty. They do it for us. Considering their sacrifice as a waste degrades them.

If we look back to Vietnam, the same anti-war people were the same people that spit on our soldiers when they returned.

And if you remember, it was republican Nixon, that finally stopped the war. Defeated.... yes... But he also destroyed the entire region with bombing that made sure that the vietnamese civil war would not leave it's borders. Basically he blasted the country into oblivion. And whose fault?. The american people and their lack of resolve.

This is what happens when we lose. Leaving a decimated country, with unending violence and it's people enslaved to a terrible regime.

Iraq has a new government. It looks like it could be a successful one. Their timeline for the beginning of our withdrawal is 18 months. The sectarian violence, which is costing so many Iraqi lives is becoming a police matter, rather than a military one.

I am guardedly optimistic about Iraqi. My concern is not the terrorists. My concern is the american people. I sure hope we are not a bunch of cowards that will run. We could find victory.

The liberation of the Iraqi people serves us and serves them. It is worth more loss of life and more sacrifice than we have made so far.

We also have one more advantage that we didn't have in Vietnam. The chinese and russians are talking to us. They are enjoying the benefits of trading with us. That's, in large part, due to the efforts of Mr. Nixon. Also due to the efforts of Mr. Reagan, who helped drive the last nails in the Soviet coffin.

Last edited by rockouthippie; 1st June 2006 at 21:54.
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Old 2nd June 2006, 19:01   #74
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People opposed to the Vietnam and iraq wars were and are NOT against the soldiers, but against the WAR. Pulling out of Vietnam did not endanger America but saved many thousands more American lives that would have died in that jungle hell. Diplomatic relations between the countries were eventually normalized.

The war in Iraq is futile because the soldiers can't even be sure who the enemy is. It's way too fuzzy a situation, and too many civilians are being killed because of that.

Iraqis are signing up for their police force and miliary because they need a job, much the same as many in the US military do. When it comes right down to it, much of the Iraqi police force and military are anti-US in their hearts.

Naturally there are some positives, but the Iraq war has caused Al Qaeda to spread its operations to that nation. The war efforts of the Bush administration were first launched to stomp out Al Qaeda, and the moves it's been making has been failing in that goal. War is never neat, but this is really messed up.

Many Dems signed on to the war but not to how its being executed. A number of generals have even stated their opposition to the strategy and to Rumsfeld's handling of the war.

As for the crimes of the Bush gang, consider the tapping of the lines of Americans without court approval. The FISA court could have given quick approval to the request or even after the event, but they didn't go to the court because they were afraid the scope of the taps would have rendered the activity illegal, so they acted like fascists and just went ahead and did as they pleased. Is that how we do things in America?

Just as fears of the communist threat to Gemany enabled the Nazis to come to power, fears of the terrorist threat to the US are causing fascist forces to stir there. There are checks and balances in the US system but that doesn't mean that a form of fascism cannot function behind a facade of Democracy. We need to keep an eye on everything.
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Old 2nd June 2006, 20:34   #75
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I have ultimate faith in the the american people to maintain a solid constitutional republic, preserving individual rights.
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Old 3rd June 2006, 19:02   #76
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Did you refer to the US as a constitutional republic because you sense that it's not even really a democratic republic? One has to wonder when US presidents can be elected the way Bush was in 2000, getting a half million less votes than his opponent and becoming president via a 5-4 Supreme Court vote. This is the nation that wants to ram democracy down Iraq's throat?

Hamas came to power in Palestine via a democratic vote and they are not being recognized by Washington, so the democratization of Iraq is not the true reason for the occupation, just as WMD was not. It's not out of compassion for the Iraqi people that the US is losing lives over there. An administration that would cut down food and medical funds for its own poor people while having no problem coming up with hundreds of billions for a war is not a compassionate bunch. They are hawks.

Hopefully the many Americans who have been duped into thinking that the Republican party is the Christian party will come to their senses. While the Republican party has been giving tax breaks to oil companies and the richest people, it has been Democrats who have been screaming on the floors of Congress to not cut funds for the poor. Rather than address many serious problems, the Republicans want to waste time on a marriage ammendment that they know has no chance of passing.

An overwhelming majority of Americans see the war as a mistake. Because of this, we should expect incumbents to be voted out in high numbers in this year's elections, and Democrats to return to power in Congress. If this doesn't happen, it will be reasonable to ponder whether voting machines have been tampered with and if the US has become a CON-stitutional republic.
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Old 3rd June 2006, 22:32   #77
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Look, when did it become a crime to do business in the United States?. So some rich people got some tax breaks. So what?. You can bet the democrats bought the same oil stocks that Bush did.

If you want to find a humanitarian, there are a lot of very rich liberals that got a break too. If they didn't like the pay increase, then they should give it back.... there are lots of ways to give it back....

Did I hear silence?.

You bet.

Since liberals have all the ideas to "help" the country out, isn't more money in their pocket a way for them to effect direct change?. Kerry could buy and sell Bush a hundred times.

I'll give you one liberal mecca that bends the US citizens over the sink more than any other. It's the medical industry. I wish I could go to the vet.

Another is a liberal entertainment industry that brings us draconian legislation that has extended copyrights to forever. Welcome to the liberal RIAA/MPAA universe.

And who wants your gun?. Not the republicans. Who wanted eavesdropping devices built into your computer?. That would be Al Gore.

This is not a democracy. It's a constitutional republic with a bill of rights. The majority doesn't have absolute power.

If I am going to look at the conduct of the House of Representatives on the immigration "reform" that they sent to the Senate, I have to wonder what country I'm living in. The president seems to have far more respect for people than our house.

It's the reason that liberals are not in power any more. They want "cradle to grave" control of your life. They want to control what your children are taught, want to take your gun away, want to welfare check and social work you to death.

The democrats want to make people victims. The republicans want to put people to work.

You would notice if you ever worked for Hoffman or Halliburton that they pay REALLY well. That's lots of good jobs. If Cheney gets a check, so did a lot of other people.

I remember when the democratic party represented working people.
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Old 4th June 2006, 18:41   #78
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In support of the war, right wing hacks have argued that there are more murders in America than we're seeing in Iraq. If that's true, it's a sad commentary on how violent America is, because massacres are occuring in Iraq regularly. Iraqi politicians are gunned down frequently. Even their athletes are being picked off.

The Republicans who want people to keep their guns keep on conning people that their party is the Christian party. Christ said "Those who take to the sword die by the sword", and "turn the other cheek". Christ is far from gun-happy. Neil Young is so right when he sings "they have hijacked our religion". Wake up, people.

And don't buy the lie that Democrats are weak on defense just because they want guns off the streets. Remember that it was Democratic president Harry Truman who pushed the button to drop the A-Bombs on Japan, a decision i personally think was horrible and wrong, but it speaks volumes about how far from feeble Dems can be.

Republicans claim that the tax breaks for the wealthy are creating jobs but jobs were created under Clinton without those tax breaks. Why is more being given to those who don't even need it while funds are actually being taken away from the poor who need it badly? Bush is Robin-Hood in reverse, robbing from the poor and giving to the rich.

Is Bush's compassion for Mexicans really that, or is it that he wants companies to continue to enjoy the cheap labor? It was southern aristocrats like him who were willing to fight a war against other Americans to keep slavery going. This cheap labor is the closest thing they can find to slavery, and apparently more important to them than securing a border in an age of terrorism. It is criminal when you consider that hundreds of billions are instead going to fight a foreign guerilla war which cannot be won.

Top terrorists like Al-Zarqawi continue to do their thing in Iraq because much of the Iraqi people are sympathetic to them. If that were not so, those like Zarqawi and Bin Laden would have been captured long ago. You think you can win such a war? Please. The war continues to continue to benefit companies who profit from such war, with young Americans paying the price with their limbs, lives and sanity.

It's pitiful that groups like the Minute-Men have to take it upon themselves to try to secure our border since the federal government isn't doing it. Why not create a "Great Wall Of America" and create a bunch of jobs via its creation?

Have to applaud those Dixie Chicks. Some stations have boycotted their music, but that hasn't stopped their album from debuting at #1. The truth cannot be squelched. Amen.

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Old 5th June 2006, 19:36   #79
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jobs were created under Clinton without those tax breaks.
And the largest stock fraud scandals in the history of the US. And the economy is even recovering despite >$3 a gallon gasoline. This time it's sustainable growth not a hallucination based on letting the stock market run amok.
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Old 5th June 2006, 21:51   #80
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Let's get back to Palestine. The area that is now Israel was indeed known as Palestine for about 2000 years when you consider the Roman tag "Syria Palaestina", and even more than 2000 years if you consider the Phillistines mentioned in the Old Testament. Dog mentioned that the Arabs conquered the region in 635, but we can learn more about this mess when we consider the life of the person considered the first Arab, Ishmael, the first son of Abraham, the patriarch of both the Arabs and Jews. Abraham's wife Sarah thought she couldn't bear children so she had her maid Hagar produce Ishmael with Abraham. Later Sarah was able to get pregnant and gave birth to Isaac. Hostile emotions ensued, leading Sarah to expel Ishmael and Hagar into the wilderness. From the Jewish perspective, Sarah was Abrahams's proper wife and so they see Isaac as the son entitled to inheritance, and Ishmael not entitled to same. From the Arab perspective, Ishmael is entitled to Abraham's inheritance because he was his first-born son from a woman they see as Abraham's second wife. It is not disputable that in those days all men had harems, so the Arab perspective is a valid one.

It's a family dispute that has come down through the generations. The Jews that want to cast out the Arabs are wrong, just as Sarah was wrong to cast out Ishmael and Hagar. The Arabs that want to cast out the Jews are wrong, too, because they are relatives. The right thing to do would be to share the land.

The terrorism the US has suffered is largely an import of that dispute. Too many in the US have the mentality of a Pat Robertson, who stated that God punished Ariel Sharon with a stroke for giving land back to the Palestinians. The bias in such statements is clear and is unjust. Sharon's giving back land was an act of peace that the Prince Of Peace could only shine on. Be fair, America. Don't let your religion be hijacked by false preachers.
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