Old 10th September 2002, 00:11   #1
TheOrgasmicMe
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i hate capitalism

well, i hate capitalism, it feeds off the poor and gives it all to the rich to make them even richer, we benifit from other peoples suffering, and to me, as a humanist, that just seems wrong. now don't get me wrong, im not an anarchist, i could never belive that anarchy would ever truly work (though its still fun to think it could). But, anyway, i would just like to hear what other people have to say on this topic, because what the hell is the best system ,there has to be something out there that at least meets most peoples needs.... right?

Sean k.

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Old 10th September 2002, 00:14   #2
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i, myself, am a CATCUARIST. so, i beleive in whats best for CACTUARKIND. which is mostly KILLING HEROES, and such, and so forth.
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Old 10th September 2002, 00:27   #3
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I suppose you could move somewhere with a 50% or more personal income tax rate. Someplace where speeding tickets are proportional to your income, so it's possible to pay a ticket of $100,000 or more (yes, these countries exist).

It's easy to say that capitalism feeds off of the poor, but how about some examples?
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Old 10th September 2002, 01:05   #4
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for example, huge corperations that already have billions of dollars, charging ubsurd prices for their products, when in fact they were made by little children being paid $.10 a day in horrible conditions just to get a billion dollar company more money than they could ever need. such are the ways of capitalism.

Sean k.

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Old 10th September 2002, 01:06   #5
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oh yes, and i like squell's idea

Sean k.

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Old 10th September 2002, 01:42   #6
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Quote:
Originally posted by TheOrgasmicMe
for example, huge corperations that already have billions of dollars, charging ubsurd prices for their products, when in fact they were made by little children being paid $.10 a day in horrible conditions just to get a billion dollar company more money than they could ever need. such are the ways of capitalism.
Such are the ways of Ignorance! There has never been a better system that allocates more things to more people more effeciently. The fact that you will type a response on a personal computer that you probably own (unless you're in a school...) is a testament to the robustness, ease, and utility of capitalism. The fact is, the self serving qualities of humans are what make it work- systems that do not account for human greed and selfishness do not function well/and or are forced to commit human rights violations to keep people from fleeing to capitalist societies!

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Old 10th September 2002, 02:01   #7
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Hey, I agree with Xerxes on this. Knock me over with a feather!!!
 
Old 10th September 2002, 02:01   #8
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Capitalism allows for the sharing of wealth. Communism allows for the sharing of poverty. All other alternatives to date are just varying degrees of either scheme.
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Old 10th September 2002, 02:05   #9
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Hey, I agree with Xerxes on this. Knock me over with a feather!!!
If you truly agreed then you'd want to replant the Bush in the white house lawn
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Old 10th September 2002, 02:09   #10
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If you truly agreed then you'd want to replant the Bush in the white house lawn
Hmmmmm. OK. As long as it's six feet under. Fertilizing the White House lawn would be about the best thing he'll ever do for the environment.
 
Old 10th September 2002, 02:13   #11
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Count your lucky stars, Rand, because I cannot think of a witty political riposte that ties into gardening, because i have a dinner appointment. But I will think of one.

Until then, sod off
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Old 10th September 2002, 02:18   #12
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sod off
sod off. Now that is a good pun. Kudos!!!
 
Old 10th September 2002, 02:26   #13
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Well if i was living in Monaco, i wouldnt haveta pay taxes now would I?

And i get a free Formula 1 race every year as a bonus

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Old 10th September 2002, 02:26   #14
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I knew Xerxes would find this thread!
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Old 10th September 2002, 02:36   #15
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Quote:
Originally posted by rm'
Capitalism allows for the sharing of wealth. Communism allows for the sharing of poverty. All other alternatives to date are just varying degrees of either scheme.
thats just the thing, capitalism does not share wealth, it only gets to those who are greedy, wallowing in their own filthy wealth, not needing anymore than 10% of it, when you think about it, its not the hardest working people that are wealthy, it is the ones who got lucky. Im not saying capitalism is the worst system out there, but it cant be the best, a socialism mixed with capitalism, you know somewhere inbetween. oh, yes, and when i say capitalism, i do not mean what the US is, because the US is not pure capitalism, it is pure capitalism that i do not like, people become courrupt. so yeah, just think about stuff like that. i love this country and all, but it could still use a lot of work (Bush, for example) i guess what im really saying, is that this capitalistic socialism thingy the US is, really just needs better leadership.

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Old 10th September 2002, 02:38   #16
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(also i just like to get people arguing)

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Old 10th September 2002, 02:50   #17
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Mixed economies fail miserably. What happens is that wealth becomes even more concentrated, negating the socialist benefits of the system, and production processes become horribly inefficient, wiping out the benefits of capitalism. Take Canada, for example, which is a typical mixed economy. The government regulates the flow of wealth through trade regulation, estate taxes, capital gains taxes, etc. Furthermore, key industries are either entirely state controlled such as telecommunication, hydro, healthcare and media, or heavily subsidized, such as agriculture, and aerospace. Because management is in the hands of government, all citizens have to wait longer in emergency rooms, pay more for basic commodoties, and only have access to state-controlled, and monitored news sources. All terrribly inefficient.
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Old 10th September 2002, 03:05   #18
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Quote:
Originally posted by TheOrgasmicMe
when you think about it, its not the hardest working people that are wealthy, it is the ones who got lucky...
i love this country and all, but it could still use a lot of work (Bush, for example)...
Actually, when I think about it, my two richest friends (and I'm talking multi-millionaires here) are the ones who work the very hardest, 60-80 hour weeks, working weekends, etc. My poorest friends are working the least hours, and putting in the least amount of effort. And for your information, here is what rich people do with their money:

buy houses, which stimulates the economy by creating jobs for construction workers and designers and causes demand for materials, which must be bought from suppliers who employ people to gather the materials and process and sell these materials...

buy cars, similar to above...

invest in the stock market, which creates capital for companies to grow and employ more people and innovate...

and the list goes on and on. Maybe you should take an economics course to see the multiplier effect that happens when people spend money. It is much more effective than using taxation to help the poor. In fact, it is in the best interests of the rich who are producing goods that there be as few poor people as possible, since poor people can't buy what they are making.


"Bush for example" - well, what don't you like about him? I know what randman has against him (his handling of the environment), but you don't seem to have any reason at all. It seems to be a fashion statement to say "Bush sucks" - but why are you saying that? Come on, quick, give me a reason. Some say he's not too bright, but he did better in college than Gore did. Others say he is where he is because of his father (um, same with Gore, and JFK for that matter). So maybe you should have some arguments, and not just some overly general statements, before you start a thread like this.
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Old 10th September 2002, 03:08   #19
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yes i suppose your right, very inefficent, however, the United States is a mixed economic system, the difference between it and canada though is that canada leans more twoard socialism and US leans more twoard capitalisim. Almost all countrys are a little bit of a mix, because all systems have their flaws. They have to be carefull though to not be too close to exactly between two systems, because that will tend to bring out the negitives of both sides. i dont know if anybody understands what im saying, but oh well.

also, now that i think, im going to take back my original statement of "i hate capitalism" because that is not entirely true. its not really the system i hate, its the people who take advantage of the system, such as the corperations using cheap third world labor, and the people that take advantage of the common man, just to make himself rich. now i do not hate rich people, if they earned their wealth im fine with that, its just those assholes who get it by taking advantage of people.


P.S im sorry if im being a bit redundent, but im still a little sleep deprived, and really really stressed out from crappy school work, but hey, thanks for listining

Sean k.

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Old 10th September 2002, 03:10   #20
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Maybe you should take an economics course to see the multiplier effect that happens when people spend money. It is much more effective than using taxation to help the poor. In fact, it is in the best interests of the rich who are producing goods that there be as few poor people as possible, since poor people can't buy what they are making.
yeah, i actually have taken an economics course, and i know your right.

oh, and as for bush, he couldent settle for screwing up texas, so now hes out to screw up the rest of the world, i dont care how much oil there is in alaska, its just wrong to ruin a pristine wilderness

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Old 10th September 2002, 03:18   #21
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Originally posted by TheOrgasmicMe
also, now that i think, im going to take back my original statement of "i hate capitalism" because that is not entirely true. its not really the system i hate, its the people who take advantage of the system, such as the corperations using cheap third world labor...
Unfortunately for us all, there are rotten people in every system, trying to take advantage. The good thing is, in a more open society like the U.S., they are easier to spot (look at Enron). I'm not saying everyone gets caught and brought to justice, but I think the chances they will be is better here than anywhere else.
There's nothing wrong with thinking things are screwed up and could be better. I don't fault you for that. No system is perfect. So pick your battle and get to it.
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Old 10th September 2002, 03:35   #22
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Quote:
Originally posted by TheOrgasmicMe
its not really the system i hate, its the people who take advantage of the system, such as the corperations using cheap third world labor, and the people that take advantage of the common man, just to make himself rich. now i do not hate rich people, if they earned their wealth im fine with that, its just those assholes who get it by taking advantage of people.
Capitalism depends very heavily on freedom of information. In a truly competitive market, the consumer would know of the business practices of certain companies, and plan their purchases accordingly. As long as there is demand for Gap clothing, Gap will continue to exploit child labor. It's funny... back in high school, I remember giving a group presentation on child labor. After the presentation was done, someone in the audience my groupmates, "So after telling us all this, why do you wear Gap?"

RE: The North Slope. While it may be pristine, it's pretty worthless. Ever seen it? It is an endless sea of ice. What is the purpose of conserving something if it is never to be used? Even the native Inuit population is lobbying Congress to develop the region, so that they may finally have running water and sufficient jobs.
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Old 10th September 2002, 05:15   #23
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Take Canada, for example, which is a typical mixed economy. The government regulates the flow of wealth through trade regulation, estate taxes, capital gains taxes, etc. Furthermore, key industries are either entirely state controlled such as telecommunication, hydro, healthcare and media, or heavily subsidized, such as agriculture, and aerospace. Because management is in the hands of government, all citizens have to wait longer in emergency rooms, pay more for basic commodoties, and only have access to state-controlled, and monitored news sources. All terrribly inefficient.
While Canada does have it's share of problems (like any country), it does consistently rank at the top of the list for the most desirable places to live. It maintained the #1 spot for many years until recently dropping to #3.

The Human Development Index, contained in the Human Development Report 2002, ranks 173 countries through a composite measure of life expectancy, education and income per person.

The Top 10:
1. Norway
2. Sweden
3. Canada
4. Belgium
5. Australia
6. United States
7. Iceland
8. The Netherlands
9. Japan
10. Finland

Quote:
and only have access to state-controlled, and monitored news sources
What the hell are you talking about? You make it sound like it's China! While I don't know enough to comment on just how "controlled" Canadian news sources are, I can say that it can't be any worse than the U.S. (not to mention Canada has access to all the U.S. sources and then some). Whenever I watch mainstream U.S. news I am sickened by the amount of propoganda that is spewed forth. The irony is that the U.S. people blindly assume that they have the best freedom-of-press system in the world. Ha. That may be true in concept, but not in practice.

And if you listen to Michael Moore (well known political commentator and T.V. personality), the U.S. media is controlled by a very small group of people related to big-business and government.
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Old 10th September 2002, 05:38   #24
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"Bush for example" - well, what don't you like about him? I know what randman has against him (his handling of the environment), but you don't seem to have any reason at all. It seems to be a fashion statement to say "Bush sucks" - but why are you saying that?
LoL. You need somebody to point out the reasons why Bush "sucks"? Is your head in the sand? Just off the top of head...
- his atrocious environmental record
- his un-signing of many international treaties, pissing of much of the world in the process.
- his highly questionable business practices and big-industry handouts
- his terrible foreign policies (this is a long list in itself)
- his repeated attempts to hinder free-trade
- his knee-jerk war-monger mentality.

I have more but my brain just farted.

If you think the world hates the U.S. now, just wait until until Bush is done with the country. Your only hope is to keep him out of office next time around.
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Old 10th September 2002, 05:47   #25
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oh, and as for bush, he couldent settle for screwing up texas, so now hes out to screw up the rest of the world, i dont care how much oil there is in alaska, its just wrong to ruin a pristine wilderness
Seems america (Bush) is more interested in cheap oil then preserving environments and easing middle-eastern tensions. If america were willing to pay more for their oil they could easily get it from other parts of the world. Canada for instance has more oil than Saudi Arabia...only it's more expensive to extract it from the oil sands.

anyhoo...
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Old 10th September 2002, 06:33   #26
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Quote:
Originally posted by Cheekyb0y

LoL. You need somebody to point out the reasons why Bush "sucks"? Is your head in the sand? Just off the top of head...

-

The damned left and their abominable cliche's. I will begin from the beginning and end at the end.

- his atrocious environmental record
You know, republicans arn't out to pollute the earth- its always
discussed as such. After all, Nixon established the EPA. Bush has done much preservation as well, including forgoing a particularly attractive oil reserve in the everglades. Why can't the US drill for oil on the land it owns? Why are Canada and Saudi Arabia the only ones allowed to "violate their pristine ecosystems" Why are the the truly evil governments' environmental records never cared for? China levels ancient forests and drills for oil and also "violates precious ecosystems", yet Jiang Zemin gets no flak. So please understand why most able minded republicans and conservative thinkers like myself find so called "environmentalism" really just a sham front for attacking the US and capitalism.

- his un-signing of many international treaties, pissing of much of the world in the process.
Many Treaties? Name them- I didn't even know it was a plural. I'm sure you mean the ABM treaty- The ABM treaty was signed with the Soviet Union, which does not exist. The document was Null and void, and the US even followed the grace period clause as a sign of goodwill.

- his highly questionable business practices and big-industry handouts
The left tried their mightiest to tie him to Enron, and nothing has really stuck. How they so wanted another Watergate, they would have relished it. Big Inudustry handouts? I'd have to agree with you there- the Sept. 11 Aircraft/corporate bailout was the hugest big industry handout in history- Oh wait, it was a bill approved by nearly the entire democrat senate and overrode the presidential veto. What were you referring to?

- his terrible foreign policies (this is a long list in itself)
- his repeated attempts to hinder free-trade
- his knee-jerk war-monger mentality.

Way to vague

Repeated attempts! Republicans are about Free Trade! America's business is business! China is now part of the WTO, or did you notice?

America will not stand idly by and let itself be attacked by fundamentalist savages, it's a terrible precedent. Maybe most of continental europe is fine with being complacent while a malignant evil boils in the mideast, we are not.

-Seems america (Bush) is more interested in cheap oil then preserving environments and easing middle-eastern tensions.

You know what, unlike probably everyone here I have been to the Arctic Wildlife Refuge (ANWAR). I have walked around it, it's a frozen waste. Really, it's of no use to anyone except one or two herds of caribou. Humans always come before animals, and the size of the drilling station is not even as large as rhode island in the middle of a giant, vast frozen plain. Perhaps Europeans and US Haters and die-hard caribou lovers would rather see the US go through a similar Crisis that Tony Blair put his poor country through a year and some odd ago. Resources exist to be consumed.
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Old 10th September 2002, 07:10   #27
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i think we should make robots that will do all the reminal tasks of humans today so we are free to do whatever we want to and that does not include world conquest.

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Old 10th September 2002, 15:06   #28
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Quote:
Originally posted by Cheekyb0y

Seems america (Bush) is more interested in cheap oil then preserving environments and easing middle-eastern tensions. If america were willing to pay more for their oil they could easily get it from other parts of the world. Canada for instance has more oil than Saudi Arabia...only it's more expensive to extract it from the oil sands.

anyhoo...
So I guess you are in favor of higher oil prices so we can rape the Canadian wilderness? Seems a bit hypocritical to me.

Thanks for the insight X - I'm just so sick of the knee-jerk "Bush is bad" crap put forth by people who don't really know what they are talking about.
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Old 10th September 2002, 18:35   #29
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I hate you Xerxes j/k anyway, i think that instead of spending all our time and money looking for oil, we should be spending our time searching for alternitive energy solutions. also, just for the record, i still hate Bush. so ha . i like the robots idea sort of like one of the endings to Dues Ex.

Sean k.

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Old 10th September 2002, 19:57   #30
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cars dont really polute like the use too. gas prices dont need to go up. we just need to get the world off coal and clean up industrialization. natural gas needs to be exploited and hybrids need to become vastly more widespread.

Damn it people buy hybrids.

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Old 10th September 2002, 20:08   #31
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Damn it people buy hybrids.
Make one look like a 350Z and I just might.
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Old 10th September 2002, 20:13   #32
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capitalism is a good system because it assumes total greed on everyone's part, and everyone benefits. granted, there are holes through which people slip - but being in the lower class doesn't mean you've fallen through. not being able to afford a mercedes isn't the same as not being able to afford food.

besides, the point of liberal capitalism (the big issues that get ignored?) is to make up for the people who slip through the cracks, and to prevent the cracks from widening (a la anti-trust laws). that's the point of capitalism. i make a widget, sammy makes a better widget and sells it for less to make more money, i make an even better widget and sell it for less as supply and demand both go up, and everyone now has widgets they didn't have 2 years ago. i do it for personal gain; i help the population.

that's the theory behind capitalism, and most other systems won't function nearly as well. not nearly.
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Old 10th September 2002, 20:21   #33
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youve either been in business 101 or watched that movie that talks about widgets.

damn honda that other company and ford for making ugly ass hybrids.

when is that 80mpg volvo or something comming out?

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Old 10th September 2002, 20:25   #34
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[B]youve either been in business 101 or watched that movie that talks about widgets.[B]
movie? widgets? COOL!
nah, i've done neither, just know about why we use capitalism.

what needs to happen is the hydrogen engine. then we can drive around with seawater!
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Old 10th September 2002, 20:35   #35
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You need electricity to split water into Hydrogen and Oxygen (which happens to be the cheapest and most efficient way to acquire hydrogen). There is a stigma around nuclear power. Large hydrological features aren't available everywhere, and where they are, large scale destruction of land is required to harness the energy from it. Geothermal hotspots are even rarer. Wind farms require gigantic tracts of land to be viable, and are unsightly. This leaves coal as the cheapest, and easiest power source. In effect, you are transferring the pollution from cars to power generating plants.

As a sidenote, of 6500 Honda Insights produced, only 2 390 sold. Folks say the car manufacturers are sitting on cleaner technology when the truth is that the general public will not buy it.
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Old 10th September 2002, 23:00   #36
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I like capitalism, but it does have its down sides. Most obviously is the fact that not everyone is enjoying a good lifestyle. There are homeless people here, people are stealing, etc...

Is that indicative that everyone is having it good here? I may be wrong in my reasoning, so I apologize.

The same goes for democracy. It's the best government of course, but that doesn't mean the U.S. does it right.

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Old 10th September 2002, 23:29   #37
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the honda insight is rediculusly expensive for a car in its class. most hybrids are. once they become civic cheap and less areodynamically ugly im sure they will sell more. for god sake let the rear wheels show! you know how hard it is to change a cars rear wheel when its covered up.

im all for raping canada. they could use a little oil money exporting from them. we could use a little money from exports as well. we rely to much on imports and its hurting ourselves. as for bush and his cut the trees thinner to make money plan. thats bullshit. its totally bullshit. there is a better way to do it.

besides why flood the timber market with more suply making the price of wood drop. i say make wood an expensive comodity

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Old 10th September 2002, 23:31   #38
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Originally posted by Signal Box
I like capitalism, but it does have its down sides. Most obviously is the fact that not everyone is enjoying a good lifestyle. There are homeless people here, people are stealing, etc...

Is that indicative that everyone is having it good here? I may be wrong in my reasoning, so I apologize.

The same goes for democracy. It's the best government of course, but that doesn't mean the U.S. does it right.
exactly!

Quote:
i make a widget, sammy makes a better widget and sells it for less to make more money, i make an even better widget and sell it for less as supply and demand both go up, and everyone now has widgets they didn't have 2 years ago. i do it for personal gain; i help the population
and then you figure out you can merge, and make better widgets and sell them for way more, because there is no longer any compitition, then you are screwed when the government discovers you have a monopoly on the market. you go to jail, the end

Sean k.

- Eagles may soar, but weasels don't get sucked into jet engines.
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Old 10th September 2002, 23:32   #39
Bilbo Baggins
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Although I am no lover of the Capitalist system, at the moment it is what puts bread on my table, and money in my wallet. Now although a large proportion of that money goes back to businesses, enough of it remains with me to survive. Yes, there are poor people created in the process (and the gods knows i have been there), but there has not yet been a properly operated socialist or communist system that would equally share out wealth, and nor is there likely to be as long as the human psyche is bent on bettering ourselves. Evolution is all about getting better, and while all these technological developments go on, we are still part of that process of betterment. We cannot ever hope to get rid of the capitalist system until we evolve again.

That is how I am thinking at the moment.
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Old 10th September 2002, 23:41   #40
RanDom_ErrOr
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i say, if you dont like it GET OUT.

you know because of people bitching about conditions in this country, we have lost things like gun rights, freedom of speech, and other nice rights we used to have.

the way things are going, 5 years until this "democracy" is really a socialism (like nazi germany).

and by then im gone to my own private island that i can grow pot and other nice things on and live my life oblivious to the outside world.

think of this, CARNIVORE, it reads your email, chat, posts, etc. because they want to. not for security, but because it makes them powerful.

so i say this, CALIFORNIA GO TO HELL AND TAKE WASHINGTON DC WITH YOU
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