Old 8th January 2004, 01:56   #41
DJ Killer
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most music cds are now removing this line.

I applaud Fat Wreck chord for removing the copyright statements from their CD's along with restrictions

Refer To:
Anti-Flag - Terror State CD (no copyright, no restrictions)

there are 7 cds i recently got that all have that item removed, but i cant recall all the names.

But your "redundant email" idea is good

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Old 8th January 2004, 01:59   #42
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best of all though.. it works

Thats what I do to the bastards. Also, internet copyright states that as long as you remove the copyrighted material upon request, they cant do jack. But make them send you the names of the artists "that are still in your playlist".

Oh sorry... we must have missed that one.... I will remove it now.

Thats all you gotta do. Go ahead and play their game. Its easy to win and it dont cost you anything.
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Old 8th January 2004, 02:01   #43
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yea but at the same time, add it a few days later and go "oh im sorry, the software does that sometimes... i will work on the issue"

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Old 8th January 2004, 02:03   #44
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exactly
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Old 8th January 2004, 02:05   #45
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i await the day they hit me, i know it will be soon, the stations getting big, quick. Let them come after me, i will rip them a new one! Let alone most artists i play i now have release statements for or they are independent. If i have to ill go to fye and buy every cd that has no copyright statement and stream them hehe

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Old 8th January 2004, 14:44   #46
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Quote:
Originally posted by global_groove6
artists should be paying us for all the damn work we do to get their music heard.
Yeah if you get one of these notices, submit to the record company a bill for the promotion you just did. ha ha ha ha ha
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Old 8th January 2004, 16:22   #47
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http://radiostorm.com/

Makes ya wonder, don't it?
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Old 8th January 2004, 16:25   #48
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as funny as it sounds, we cant really do that. Odd thing is FM stations pay the ARTISTS... we pay the LABEL... anything wrong with this picture?

heh.

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Old 9th January 2004, 01:43   #49
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Copyright law basically gives exclusive rights to the creator of an original work to use it as they please. The only two exceptions are fair use (such as copying your personal CD collection) or obtaining a license (for purposes or duplicating or performing a copyrighted work). The latter applies to broadcasting.

Just buying a CD or any artistic work such as a photograph, a novel, or even a software program doesn't grant you a license to use it in any way you please. Anything beyond fair-use (such as public performance) requires authorization and compensation, otherwise your are making unfair use of another person's creation entirely for your own benefit.

Consider for a moment: What would your station be without ANY music whatsoever? Silence. So then who is providing all of the creative content for your broadcast that REALLY makes people tune in? Correct. The musicians.

Performing music without license (whether it be at a bar, at a theme park, or online) is taking advantage of the many hard working and talented people, most of whom rely on the income from music sales and music royalties to survive.

What a lot of people don't realize is that composers and songwriters typically make little profit from the sales of the music they create. That is why ASCAP and BMI royalties are so important.

When you buy that expensive $15 CD, the record company execs actually take the biggest chunk and toss a smaller share to the artists and producers. They then pass along whatever is left to the publishers and advertisers and attorneys, who distribute an even smaller portion to the songwriters and composers.

As you can see there is a long line of people that need to make a living on the music.

Hopefully this explains why royalties are so important. It's not just a law, it's a responsibility.

--Randall

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Old 9th January 2004, 01:57   #50
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randall, you neglect to mention quite a few facts.

1. Radio stations pay 3% of their total income, no 0.07 per song, per play, per whatever else.

2. Radio stations pay the artists directly, not the label whereas we pay the labels and not the artists.

3. 80% of the online broadcasters here do this as a hobby, not for their own personal gain. If we don't gain, nor do they.

As far as im concerned, the BMI, SoundExchange, ASCAP and other royalty payment systems are unacceptable and are a direct way for riaa to take more money.

Its a proven fact, artists make more money from their tours than radio royalties or anything else. Need proof? Ask Courtney Love..

http://dir.salon.com/tech/feature/20...ndex.html?pn=4 (link may be down temp)

If still cant reach it, type in google "Courtney Love Does The Math".

Now whether or not the RIAA has commissioned anyone to speak on their behalf to try and shroud how this business really works needs to be found out.

In order to change a law, you must protest it, not accept it, pay its requirements and argue it... meawhile fueling their legal machine. The record labels have gone insane and whether anyone likes to admit it or not, they need to go. I hope warner music who is currently being bought out, gets ripped apart by whoever owns it, the company should of never been operating.

Heck, radio stations get this "Pay to play" thing where record labels pay THEM To play it, after that, then the record company asks for money after the "Expiration of promotional period" comes around...

Also if anyone hear READ the copyright law, there is a entry in it that states if you use an item for "Promotional Use Only" then royalty fees are not required... so let the DMCA and whatever else they have thrown try and pervert the original copyright law, but as broadcasters, we can either fuel the machine, or cut off its life support and bring down a law thats not only unfair to the artists, but unfair to the webcaster industry.

As an independent, non-profit webcaster, my principle is simple. I make nothing, nor do they. They got a problem with it? They can sue me. Legal ammunition is not hard to find, but people are too lazy to research the law themselves or read into a perverted law so much they become one-viewed.

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Old 9th January 2004, 02:19   #51
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To address your points, you mention being one viewed and not researching the law. So allow me to expand your view and explain the state of affairs in more accuracy.

Terrestrial radio stations, danceclubs, theme parks, etc. all pay ASCAP and BMI royalties. ASCAP and BMI royatlies compensate only the songwriters and composers NOT the artists. Internet radio is the first medium in which artists and record labels are actually receiving any monetary gain through public performance royalties.

The 0.07 cent rate you mention refers only to SoundExchange through a Copyright Arbitration Royalty Panel and has nothing to do with ASCAP and BMI royalties which have been established for decades.

Regardless of whether someone uses copyrighted works for hobby or not, it requires a license. For example, you cannot publish a copyrighted photograph from a magazine on a Website even if it is only for hobby.

Not paying royalties for broadcasting music is the exact same as not paying money to buy the original CD. So you may as well be recommending that you don't buy overpriced CDs. Just burn them illegally from a friend, then the price will be forced to go down.

When you want something and it costs money, sometimes you just have to pay it. Sure it is an inconvenience, but consider that you have to pay for bandwidth, you have to pay for electricity, you even have to pay for your computer. I see nowhere that hobbiests are suddenly exempt from paying for what they want to use., which is why the hobbiest excuse doesn't really hold up.

If you don't agree with the price of something, then don't use it. Broadcasting music that is not licensed under the argument that no money is being made and that it is simply too expense, has no basis in logic.

If you want to stop the neverending madness, then the real solution is to stop playing the music. Otherwise, you are simply fueling the machine further by showing there is demand and interest in the music.

And furthermore, ASCAP and BMI have no relationship whatsoever with the RIAA. I think it's nice that Courtney Love makes a lot of money from her concerts, but that certainly doesn't enter into the chain of revenue that I described above. Songwriters and composers, which are not always the same as artists, typically get very little money at all from sales of music OR concert tickets, but make much of their income from performance royalties through ASCAP and BMI.

While you may not support record labels, that is fine. But I would advise keeping the players on the field strraight for everyone's benefit. Not all musicians should have to suffer because of one rotten apple in the industry -- the RIAA and the record lables.

--Randall

Executive Director, SWCI
www.smallwebcaster.org // Redefining Music Royalties for Small Webcasters

Legal Disclaimer: The information hereinbefore is not intended to constitute legal advice or consultation nor does it form a legally binding contract.
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Old 9th January 2004, 02:33   #52
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Additionally, there is no provision in Copyright Law (Title 17 of the US Code) that grants promotional performance of a copyrighted work without a license.

Typically a "Promotion Use Only" CD is offered by a record label for the express purpose of promoting a new album. In this case, a license was granted along with the phonorecord for a single use by a specified entity (like a DJ at a radio station). The CD may not be transfered, sold, or duplicated. And when such license is expired, it must be returned to the recording company.

--Randall
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Old 9th January 2004, 02:35   #53
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i read that on the us copyright site, so sue me, ill search for it again and post link if i can find it.

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Old 9th January 2004, 02:47   #54
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I really do understand the concept of royalties and copyright. I personally have spent thousands of dollars supporting the music industry. Let's face the facts here, this goes a bit deeper than the artists. Many of the artist I play, haven't had airplay in years. I'm turning on a new generation to music they've never heard. My station has generated sales for alot of artist.

As far as "For my benefit," I hope you didn't mean financially. Because this hobby is killing my wallet. The only benefit I get is that I get to share my love for music. (at an incredible cost!)

I wonder if it would help if we could somehow incorporate a link in winamp that takes a listener to a site where they could purchase the song they are hearing....and keep track of sales generated by that station. No artist would object to that.
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Old 9th January 2004, 08:07   #55
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I helped several people setup a fairly funny avoidance to those organizations - redirect them elsewhere. They hit the website from their IP block and they magically get sent to some other site, loke a DOA page at a registrar. Use privacy on your domain registration information (essentially makes it inaccessable) and block their IP subnet from your stream servers. I have the entire list for A$CAP, BMI, $E$AC, $OCAN, MPR$ and of course our friends at $oundExchange/R$AA. Heck, you can even make them end up back at their own website if you want, but that would be kinda obvious.

They do have to hear the 'offending matter' to know you're airing it, right? And if they try to hit your site or domain and get sent to a DOA page at a registrar, you pretty much don't exist. By all respects, it is allowed by the DMCA as a protective method and if they bypass that, they have also broken the law.

Just an idea if you decide to operate 'pirate'

Quote:
Originally posted by jagwac
Sound Exchange $2,000
ASCAP $265
BMI $265
SESAC $140
Crap, SE got me for 5,000. I feel like an Enron stockholder.

Note to all: SE royalty agreements run out at the end of 2004. Either a new agreement or a new CARP forthcoming:

http://www.copyright.gov/fedreg/2004/69fr689.html

Get your battle gear on, it's time for round two.

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Old 11th January 2004, 02:09   #56
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I think it's strange that less than a month after I cancel my swcast membership, I'm contacted by BMI. Could it be? Naaaaaaa
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Old 11th January 2004, 02:22   #57
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SWcast notifies them of course :P

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Old 11th January 2004, 02:27   #58
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Sorry, but I don't have that kind of time.
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Old 11th January 2004, 09:07   #59
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Quote:
Originally posted by MegaRock
I helped several people setup a fairly funny avoidance to those organizations - redirect them elsewhere. They hit the website from their IP block and they magically get sent to some other site, loke a DOA page at a registrar. Use privacy on your domain registration information (essentially makes it inaccessable) and block their IP subnet from your stream servers. I have the entire list for A$CAP, BMI, $E$AC, $OCAN, MPR$ and of course our friends at $oundExchange/R$AA. Heck, you can even make them end up back at their own website if you want, but that would be kinda obvious.

They do have to hear the 'offending matter' to know you're airing it, right? And if they try to hit your site or domain and get sent to a DOA page at a registrar, you pretty much don't exist. By all respects, it is allowed by the DMCA as a protective method and if they bypass that, they have also broken the law.

Just an idea if you decide to operate 'pirate'



Crap, SE got me for 5,000. I feel like an Enron stockholder.

Note to all: SE royalty agreements run out at the end of 2004. Either a new agreement or a new CARP forthcoming:

http://www.copyright.gov/fedreg/2004/69fr689.html

Get your battle gear on, it's time for round two.

Oh, Billy's got a gun, he's gonna shoot ya down
He's got evil in his eyes, got a reason to despise
There's danger in the air
- used without permission

Who will be representing us (small webcasters) at this?
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Old 11th January 2004, 14:58   #60
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webcasters alliance i believe, but maybe we should make our own trade group?

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Old 11th January 2004, 16:34   #61
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I'm in
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Old 11th January 2004, 16:52   #62
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hi guys, im fairly new to this game so bear with me...

my main question is-
what about RAVE music?
meaning, what i play and spin on my radio is mostly rave/dance music like trance,house,acid jazz, and that kind of stuff. these tracks and mixes are usually remixes and dubs of other songs or whatever- do i have to pay to play these songs too? as you know when DJs spin live sets they are playing other artist's tracks and mixing them together... so would i still be obligated to pay some fee if i play this kind of music ?

so theres 2 questions i got here:
1)do i have to pay to play Rave Music and Mixes from DJs on my internet radio station?
2)would i have to pay to stream MY OWN LIVE MIX ? (i dont think so , right?)

sorry if they're silly questions like i said im new at this. thanks all.
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Old 11th January 2004, 17:25   #63
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Quote:
Originally posted by zonabi

so theres 2 questions i got here:
1)do i have to pay to play Rave Music and Mixes from DJs on my internet radio station?
2)would i have to pay to stream MY OWN LIVE MIX ? (i dont think so , right?)
[/B]
If anywhere in the songwriter or composer credits you see ASCAP, BMI or SESAC named, they'll want royalties.

If the music was released by any major label that is represented by the RIAA, they will too.

If neither of those two apply, you may still owe royalties but most smaller labels and artists will be willing to sign releases for airplay, which waives those royalties.

Broadcasting doesn't make you liable for royalty payments. The content you air does.

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Old 14th January 2004, 11:55   #64
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Quote:
Originally posted by DJ Killer
webcasters alliance i believe, but maybe we should make our own trade group?
Are webcasters alliance really standing up for our interests? Who are their members? Is it larger stations.

If they are not representing our interests then I agree with you DJ Killer
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Old 14th January 2004, 12:20   #65
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They are doing a good job in my mind, but im not sure if its primarily larger or smaller stations in their consortium. They made me aware of legislation i didnt know was coming up, but who knows.

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Old 14th January 2004, 17:59   #66
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i hate people

I hate people, simple as that, we can't just have something.
now I agree with some things the record labels say, like if you bootleg every cd you own and you have 18 gigs in mp3's then you are infact are lame, 96% of my music collection is from cd encodes of the real copies and I make backup copies of those. I also broadcast music from my music directory, I have a listener base of 10, 10!! I'm not paying $5,000 just to do this, its all at my expense, I don't charge a damn thing.
My point is Greed Ruins us all
these bastards are in a position of unchecked power, if you leave someone is a position of unchecked power for long enough that power becomes a destructive force.
if they come knocking on my doorstep of 20 users max listening then I'm going to give them the middle finger and tell them to have a coke and a smile and shut the f*ck up.
I still buy cd's I take a real copy over a burned copy anyday I pretty sure we all are here because we spent a butload of money for music, not just for music but for our life for what we are, for an appointed arm of the government to come to my house and tell me that all my stuff is copyrighted and the band missed their insurance payment on their Ferrari, that my friends is completly wrong
come and check out my awesome shoutcast
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Old 14th January 2004, 20:05   #67
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Good post lonely. I just came from the CD shop and that post really had me thinking.

The fact of the matter is that we are paying significant amounts of money and time to advertise thier music. Artists who stopped getting airplay along time ago or artists who can't get the airplay because of payolas among other things are GETTING THE AIR PLAY AT OUR EXPENSE.

The problem is that the industry as a whole is run by executives who don't have the slightest clue about this technology and its potential. Most of these people are in thier 50-60's and wouldn't know what half of this crap we talk about in the technical forums is about much less even something as simple as a memory stick. These people are out of touch.

So naturally this new technology scares them. Naturally anything new that takes the power out of thier hands they want to fight it. Remember the Sony Betamax Supreme Court Case? Funny eh? The industry 20 years ago was afraid of the VCR and went on a crusade to ban the machine. Now, the whole movie industry is just about depending on it.

With all the industry's clout, money, and tentacles in the form of new talen scouts that can pick up on a trend in some unheard of street scene in New York and capitalize on it before it gets big, you would think they would have found away to make it work for them instead of suing the very people who puts money in thier pockets. You would think that they would have embraced Shawn who created the NAPSTER and made him the next big thing. But no, APPLE computer had to take the lead with iTunes and give the people what they wanted. The recording industry did not like what Apple was trying to do with iTunes and tried in vain to keep Apple from going live with it. If the recording industry were run by techies this would not be an issue. It would be a completely different world and I suspect a much better system for the artists who want to make thier money.

Could you imagine a lawyer from GM walking in on a Corvette club with a cease and desist letter reqiuring them to pay royalties for all the dues fees and free publicity they aquired as a result of displaying GM's product? Would Ford sue a movie company for prominently displaying its product throughout the scenes and demand royalty payments? Or better yet, would BMI send a lawyer into some obscure club hall and demand the DJ start paying money for the use of his music or else?

No other media has such a direct and profound power as music radio. You here a song you like...and almost immediatly sometimes you go fork over the 15 bucks to get the CD with that one song on it. I don't know of any other product that markets so well over radio. Hell, I'm still trying to find songs I heard on the radio/tv 5-10 years ago. I've given up on radio though. They never tell you the name of the artist unless they are getting illegal payolas to promote them. When you do try to get the name nobody picks up the phone. You can thank the big Infinities and Clear Channels for that improved customer service.

Yet on Internet radio, the artists are prominently displayed right in your player. No you don't have to try call some DJ who is too busy making illegal payola deals to give a damn about what you want to hear. Its all right there in that little player. If you want to talk to the DJ just send an IM. Its soo simple.

The industry has a fertile ground of pioneers who are so passionate about artists, they'll pay to get them heard which is what alot of us are doing in time, server fees, and equipment costs. The fact that they would rather threaten us with court than embrace it and use it as the powerful marketing tool that it is tells me that they don't give a crap about artists.

Oh well I'm off my soapbox for now but I'm holding out that someday, streaming radio will be the next "SONY Betamax" that the industry can't do without. Until then, I'll keep paying my money to promote the artist.
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Old 14th January 2004, 21:25   #68
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I think what Josywales meant when he said "What if I only play my own personal original music" was his own original compositions that he has recorded and not CDs that he has purchased.

I help to run a very small record label in the UK and i know a bit about this copyright thing and one thing that i think needs to be pointed out is that there are 2 lots of copyright to deal with for music.

1. There is the copyright to the song which is usualy owned by the songwriter or his publisher whether or not the song writer is the performer and whether or not they they are signed to a label. This is the copyright that the BMI/ASCAP (in the US) enforce and collect the royalties for.

2. The copyright in the sound recording, which is as owned by the record label if the artist is signed or if not then usualy by whoever has "arranged" for the recording to be made. These royalties do not have to be paid FM/AM radio stations in the US but since the DMCA they have to be paid on all digital broadcast including streaming over the net. These royalties are collected by SoundExchange in the US.


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Old 15th January 2004, 20:15   #69
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Re: i hate people

Quote:
Originally posted by lonely driver
96% of my music collection is from cd encodes of the real copies and I make backup copies of those. I also broadcast music from my music directory, I have a listener base of 10, 10!! I'm not paying $5,000 just to do this, its all at my expense, I don't charge a damn thing.
I'm in the same boat. I broadcast from CDs I've purchased over the last 18 years (at a cost of roughly $15,000). It's stuff that gets no or next to no radio airplay. I also have a max of ten listeners. The web home page for the stream carries no advertising, no affiliate links for sales.

And of course today I get a nice fat packet in the mail from BMI with Music Performance Agreements and a business card from their Manager of Internet Licensing.

Now I'm not opposed to license fees for broadcasting (though BMI's justification of "music is an excellent way to promote traffic to your web site" doesn't hold any water with me since I don't give a flying fuck about driving traffic to my website) but paying $2,670 annually to four separate organizations for the scope of what I'm doing is simply obscene.

The only possible objective to all this is to knock out small webcasters so people can only get music through large, homogenized, "approved" media conglomerates and it pisses me off.

.
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Old 15th January 2004, 23:34   #70
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I must disagree. If in fact that was the primary intention of BMI and ASCAP, then they wouldn't be so eager to license outfits such as Live365.com, AudioRealm, and SWCast.net which are specifically servicing the small Webcaster market by providing affordable and simplified blanket-licensing.

--Randall
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Old 16th January 2004, 00:06   #71
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If BMI and ASCAP were so geared up about the small-webcaster market, they'd have reasonable rates set up for the small-webcaster market and there'd be no need for third parties to provide affordable and simplified blanket-licensing.

That being said, I have been looking into SWCast.net. (though it looks like it would put a serious crimp into the way I've been running the server)

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Old 16th January 2004, 00:13   #72
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Again ill put my 2 cents in as a broadcaster myself.

We promote them. If it wasn't for us, they wouldn't have a profitable business, whether FM or online, we make an impact.

I will not be "Taxed" on what i own. What i own is what i own. I dont care about some license, EULA, or whatever else. If i own it, i will have s*x with it if thats what i want to. Corporate greed has become too much and it needs to be stopped.

We are the most taxed and most overcharged country in this world. The more we "continue to pay" these "royalties" the more they think we will accept this system, and the less of a chance we have to battle them.

When you put stuff in the public domain, expect it to be used in the way it was meant to be, in terms of music, it was meant to be HEARD. Music used to have messages and stuff, now the only message they come with is a pricetag for the exec's new shoes. Enough is enough dangit.

Royalties can take a hike south. Unless people fight this, nothing is going to happen.

Remember, vote bush, we get screwed again!

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Old 16th January 2004, 00:56   #73
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Music is not public domain. All creative works are protected by copyright whether it be a photograph, a news article, a television program, a motion picture, a poem, or a 12" single. The only time a creative work is public domain and doesn't require a royalty for public performance is if the author specifically designates it as such.

If you want to support public domain music, then I would kindly encourage you to stop supporting commercialized, copyrighted music by buying it in the first place.

--Randall
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Old 16th January 2004, 01:03   #74
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Neither BMI or ASCAP have a realistic picture of the still newly emerging small Webcaster market. I suspect it is just not practical enough for them at this point in time to manage royalties on such a small scale.

Keep in mind the Webcasting rates for both ASCAP and BMI are in fact the exact same price for clubs and mobile DJs.
And they have to invest even more money into their operation than an online broadcast.

Just some thoughts,

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Old 16th January 2004, 01:28   #75
DJ Killer
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and they get money for it, we dont... so i dont understand how comparing online radio to a club works wheras a club makes money, and most station owners do not.

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Old 16th January 2004, 04:18   #76
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First off, let me make myself clear:

THE RIAA CAN LICK MY LEFT ONE.

With that said, if it wasn't for SE, royalties would be a piece of cake. BMI, SESAC, ASCAP - these are all a few hundred a year, which truthfully is not all that bad. Nothing at all would be great, so I can settle for not that bad.

Why should SE be charging thousands when all the other similar royalty agencies get a few hundred for the same services. Sadly, I never saw this issue raised in the CARP and Copyright hearings and it's a very valid point. Why are all the other agencies a few hundred and this one several thousand. What gives them the right to collect so much when no one else does and those that do not aren't very concerned about raising their rates at all.

Then, there's that BS recordkeeping deal. Again - with the other agencies you simply pay your fees and you are covered under any of the music in their arsenal. Why can't SE do the same? Why do they need such complicated recordkeeping regulations! It's simply there to hassle people and thus far it's doing it's job. I prefer to do my taxes over screwing with the recordkeeping any day of the week.

And, since the fees are a federally mandated fee, they just happen to also be tax deductable. Freaking 'eh right, if the Feds want to make me pay those idiots at SE, I'll just let the Feds pay for some of it.

It's ironic how that crap works out, isn't it?

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Old 16th January 2004, 06:40   #77
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Is it true in what I've been reading that BMI (and presumably ASCAP and SESAC) pays received royalties out to artists based upon their positions in popular music charts?

That if I were to be paying these royalties, they'd be going to support music I don't play by artists I don't like?

And they wonder my reluctance?

I've had listeners email me to tell of purchases they've made because of something they heard on the stream. I, in turn, have made purchases based upon listener recommendations. That seems to be of more benefit to the artists on my playlist than these royalties they won't see a penny of.

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Old 16th January 2004, 11:26   #78
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where did u find this thing about the popular music chart? thats interesting, certainly can be grounds for a lawsuit.

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Old 16th January 2004, 17:36   #79
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Period, point blank

From what I've read both here and otherwise, what the bastards in the RIAA (et al.) want is a percentage of station income.

Llama Lounge Radio is totally non-profit, very small, and will remain that way. As someone so correctly pointed out earlier in this thread, 5% of 0 is still 0, which is all those bloodsuckers will ever get out of us.

How about we send THEM a bill for the DSL we run on, all the CDs we've bought so that we can broadcast music from them (we are 100% legal in that regard, we own the CD (or tape/vinyl on rare occasions) on which every track we broadcast was released), and for the free advertising for all the artists?

These bills won't be large, LLR is a very small station with a max of 9 concurrent listeners...

The RIAA can not only lick my left one, but the other one as well, and then go around the back to plant a big fat smooch on my butt.

Last edited by LLRadio; 16th January 2004 at 20:33.
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Old 16th January 2004, 22:07   #80
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Quote:
The RIAA can not only lick my left one, but the other one as well, and then go around the back to plant a big fat smooch on my butt.
I would let them do that too, but I'm saving my right one for the Librarian of Congress - a moron of untold proportions that likely doesn't even know what the internet is (probably thinks Al Gore REALLY DID invent the internet.)

Again - the current copyright deal ends at the end of the year, organize now...and KILL, KILL, KILL.

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