To x264 or NOT to x264 - THAT Is The Question

Jeeper One · 2nd February 2006, 02:24

Hi everyone:

I've been doin' some thinking.

Now that it appears I have the technical problems which I had been experiencing with viewing x254-encoded videos resolved, I am now left wondering two things. Should I...

1). Go back to using x264 and worry about the possibility of any legal ramnifications and/or consequences later OR....

2). Just simply forget about x264 and go all the way back to VP3 (where there is NO licensing issues because it was Nullsoft who licenced for VP3 in the first place).

I want to go with x264, yet I don't wanna get sued into high oblivion either. Yet OTOH, compared to x264, VP3 just doesn't hold a candle BUT as mentioned before, it's THE ONLY version that A). Was licensed to Nullsoft by ON2 and B). Can be used for NSV without running the risk of getting the attention of ON2.

Anyone here see my dilemna?

In other words....DO I OR DON'T I???

Thoughts? Theories? STRAIGHT JACKETS? (Okay that last one was stretching it a *wee* bit

)

Cheers

Pat (a.k.a. Jeeper One).

ken52787 · 2nd February 2006, 03:03

Butch up and go x264.

harkonen70 · 2nd February 2006, 14:33

Well, for the sake of discussion .. in all likelyhood you would get a cease and desist first .. and the legal bills in prepping that letter would likely cost more than they would get from you in a law suit ...

(not making comments about your income there .. but you know what I mean)

So in a nutshell .. go for it and likely you will quickly have others jump in and follow your lead ..

along those lines .. encoders are popping up everywhere too

http://www.digg.com/apple/Handbrake_...nd_it_is_fast_

LuisG · 2nd February 2006, 18:47

VP3 is also know as Theora.

Theora is free for commercial or no commercial use :
http://www.theora.org/theorafaq.html#14

I would like the idea of x264 streams but if i were you , i use VP3/Theora ...

toqer · 2nd February 2006, 18:55

How are you going to get Winamp clients to decode it without having to go through a million steps to install the codec?

I went back to vp3/mp3 so macs/linux folks could watch.

sns2015 · 2nd February 2006, 22:54

With x264 you can watch stuff using VLC on Macs (albeit it has to be a fairly fast Mac...). Also, VLC can handle AAC+ audio (v1 only, meaning no parametric). I've been running a long experiment using on demand files with x264 and AAC+ audio and it seems to be going fine so far. And the chances of you getting sued would only be if you were selling slots of your stream or something similar to the various subscription services. Otherwise, the chances of you being sued for it are very slim. They'd go after the codec maker before the people who use it.

Jeeper One · 3rd February 2006, 00:18

Hi everyone:

Plus the clarity of the picture is just ABSOLUTELY AWESOME too!

In some of the vids in my more extensive testing with x264 (and my testing with AAC+), I noticed the video bitrate drop all the way down to around 32K (which is what I use for AAC+), yet the end result was, after AAC+ factored in, a true 64K video that looked - You guessed it - ABSOLUTELY AWESOME. In fact, so awesome, you can even read some of the wording CLEAR AS A BELL even at DOUBLE the screen resolution (which was 320x240 x 2). This is why I'm thinking of just taking the plunge and set up my station in x264.

And t0qer, to answer your question about the codec, you only have to download a couple items (which *could* be bundled together guys). Once you install them properly, all there is left to do is configure ffmpeg for encoding AND decoding (I myself for awhile did the former but not the latter, thus resulting in the earlier problems I had in vieweing ANYTHING in x264 - Local OR on the Internet).

Plus, as has already been mentioned, not only can it be viewed in Winamp, but also in VLC as well, thus giving me a Mac audience at least until MacAmp starts supporting x264 that is.

In any case, I've got some more testing to do before I make my final decision. I'll be sure to keep everyone posted.

Cheers

rockouthippie · 3rd February 2006, 13:52

From the VIA license I looked at, it looks like you are licensed to use x264 for free.

That's up to a distribution of 50,000 copies or $500,000 in gross revenue per project.

Winamps is a bigger distribution than that, so thats Winamp. For the rest of us, I think it's pretty much fair game.

What I found really annoying is that WMS will stream x264/mp3 ASF files, but WMP won't play them, even with the codec pack.

Works fine with media player classic etc.

This wasn't worth a post by itself, but have you guys played with the new embedded Divx plugin?. Pretty nifty.

Jeeper One · 3rd February 2006, 14:56

Hi everyone:

What I found to be really annoying is that I can't play an x264 video in Winamp or VLC with WME running (much less streaming my cam).

Extrememly disheartening.

JEERS Microsoft.

Cheers everyone else

Pat (a.k.a. Jeeper One)

rockouthippie · 3rd February 2006, 16:29

Yeah, and that was the eventual problem that I found with WMS and shoutcast. WMS fries shoutcast if it's running.

Maybe you could get VLC to do your streaming direct. VLC will make x264 asf files.... no problem (if you're fast enough).

Those can be played with VLC, mplayer or either of their embedded players.

slavas · 3rd February 2006, 20:21

Quote:

Originally posted by toqer
How are you going to get Winamp clients to decode it without having to go through a million steps to install the codec?

hopefully when XviD AVC will be released it will be quite easy to get single nsv_dec*.dll, as I'm too lame to make it off ffmpeg

gameplaya15143 · 5th February 2006, 02:25

Quote:

Originally posted by toqer
How are you going to get Winamp clients to decode it without having to go through a million steps to install the codec?

I went back to vp3/mp3 so macs/linux folks could watch.

there arent a million steps...
1. install ffdshow with the vwf helper enabled
2. configure the vfw config to decode h264
3. put nsvdec_x264.dll in winamp/plugins

^^ 3 steps... or in one step..
1. get VLC

...................................
x264 needs a decoder.. not just a directshow one, but also vfw.. currently i'm decoding h264 with ff_vfw (manually set vidc.h264=ff_vfw.dll in the registry

, gets it into virtualdub and everything else without *many* problems)

Jeeper One · 5th February 2006, 05:02

Hi everyone:

I like x264 because EVEN AT FULL SCREEN the picture is near TV quality (depending on the bitrate of course).

In the 300+ vids I've encoded so far, even those as low as 64K (i.e. the ones with a TOTAL bitrate of 64K), I've yet to run across one that just totally sucked balls.

So, I think I'll flip-flop again and take the plunge. Afterall, the worst I can get is what - A cease and desist order (I don't do this for profit nor do I take donations). Right?

Cheers

Pat

arkadas.amereeh · 5th February 2006, 14:19

The extra encoder and decoder is no problem, if it can be installed and configured automaticly for use (like shoutcast installer) .

Only then users might be intrested to watch x264.

Regards,

Arkadas

harkonen70 · 5th February 2006, 22:19

Decease and Insist! rock on .. and let us know of your progress!

Jeeper One · 7th February 2006, 22:00

Hi everyone:

FYI PURPOSES ONLY: I'm back on the air in x264 now that I have enough videos to last awhile (That is if you count a handful of 1 1/2 to 2 hour CLASSIC Comedy and Western movie flicks APIECE as being "awhile"

).

I'm listed in the Media Library, though this will likely change should StreamerP2P work out, which I expect probably will. Once I get the StreamerP2P URL, I'll put that in my sig and take the current one out).

Anyhow...Cheers

Pat (a.k.a. Jeeper One)

harkonen70 · 13th February 2006, 13:54

well, right from the Lama's mouth ...

http://forums.winamp.com/showthread....29#post1864629

and note the reply below ..

so there IS a future for x.264 support in winamp in the hopefully not too distant future ...

Lets hope for a not distant future

arkadas.amereeh · 14th February 2006, 11:27

Did i notice the vp7 encoder and decoder dll in this somewhere in this threath

rockouthippie · 14th February 2006, 19:19

Quote:

Originally posted by harkonen70
well, right from the Lama's mouth ...

http://forums.winamp.com/showthread....29#post1864629

and note the reply below ..

so there IS a future for x.264 support in winamp in the hopefully not too distant future ...

Lets hope for a not distant future

A year ago would have been good.

harkonen70 · 15th February 2006, 14:52

true .. but I suppose better late than never ... still prefer shoutcast to darwin .. so lets hope it comes soon ..

2nd February 2006, 03:03	#2
ken52787 Major Dude Join Date: Aug 2003 Posts: 1,297	Butch up and go x264. NSV downloads An in-depth step by step guide for newbies, coming soon.

2nd February 2006, 18:55	#5
toqer Winamp's Little Stalker (Member) Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: under a bridge Posts: 797	How are you going to get Winamp clients to decode it without having to go through a million steps to install the codec? I went back to vp3/mp3 so macs/linux folks could watch. Winamps Only Karaoke TV station, Live from the 7 Bamboo in San Jose California

3rd February 2006, 00:18	#7
Jeeper One Major Dude Join Date: May 2003 Location: Denver, Colorado Posts: 1,055	Hi everyone: Plus the clarity of the picture is just ABSOLUTELY AWESOME too! In some of the vids in my more extensive testing with x264 (and my testing with AAC+), I noticed the video bitrate drop all the way down to around 32K (which is what I use for AAC+), yet the end result was, after AAC+ factored in, a true 64K video that looked - You guessed it - ABSOLUTELY AWESOME. In fact, so awesome, you can even read some of the wording CLEAR AS A BELL even at DOUBLE the screen resolution (which was 320x240 x 2). This is why I'm thinking of just taking the plunge and set up my station in x264. And t0qer, to answer your question about the codec, you only have to download a couple items (which could be bundled together guys). Once you install them properly, all there is left to do is configure ffmpeg for encoding AND decoding (I myself for awhile did the former but not the latter, thus resulting in the earlier problems I had in vieweing ANYTHING in x264 - Local OR on the Internet). Plus, as has already been mentioned, not only can it be viewed in Winamp, but also in VLC as well, thus giving me a Mac audience at least until MacAmp starts supporting x264 that is. In any case, I've got some more testing to do before I make my final decision. I'll be sure to keep everyone posted. Cheers Pat Cook Englewood, CO

3rd February 2006, 14:56	#9
Jeeper One Major Dude Join Date: May 2003 Location: Denver, Colorado Posts: 1,055	Hi everyone: What I found to be really annoying is that I can't play an x264 video in Winamp or VLC with WME *running* (much less streaming my cam). Extrememly disheartening. JEERS Microsoft. Cheers everyone else Pat (a.k.a. Jeeper One) Pat Cook Englewood, CO

5th February 2006, 05:02	#13
Jeeper One Major Dude Join Date: May 2003 Location: Denver, Colorado Posts: 1,055	Hi everyone: I like x264 because EVEN AT FULL SCREEN the picture is near TV quality (depending on the bitrate of course). In the 300+ vids I've encoded so far, even those as low as 64K (i.e. the ones with a TOTAL bitrate of 64K), I've yet to run across one that just totally sucked balls. So, I think I'll flip-flop again and take the plunge. Afterall, the worst I can get is what - A cease and desist order (I don't do this for profit nor do I take donations). Right? Cheers Pat Pat Cook Englewood, CO

2nd February 2006, 02:24	#1
Jeeper One Major Dude Join Date: May 2003 Location: Denver, Colorado Posts: 1,055	To x264 or NOT to x264 - THAT Is The Question Hi everyone: I've been doin' some thinking. Now that it appears I have the technical problems which I had been experiencing with viewing x254-encoded videos resolved, I am now left wondering two things. Should I... 1). Go back to using x264 and worry about the possibility of any legal ramnifications and/or consequences later OR.... 2). Just simply forget about x264 and go all the way back to VP3 (where there is NO licensing issues because it was Nullsoft who licenced for VP3 in the first place). I want to go with x264, yet I don't wanna get sued into high oblivion either. Yet OTOH, compared to x264, VP3 just doesn't hold a candle BUT as mentioned before, it's THE ONLY version that A). Was licensed to Nullsoft by ON2 and B). Can be used for NSV without running the risk of getting the attention of ON2. Anyone here see my dilemna? In other words....DO I OR DON'T I??? Thoughts? Theories? STRAIGHT JACKETS? (Okay that last one was stretching it a wee bit ) Cheers Pat (a.k.a. Jeeper One). Pat Cook Englewood, CO

2nd February 2006, 14:33	#3
harkonen70 Junior Member Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 26	Well, for the sake of discussion .. in all likelyhood you would get a cease and desist first .. and the legal bills in prepping that letter would likely cost more than they would get from you in a law suit ... (not making comments about your income there .. but you know what I mean) So in a nutshell .. go for it and likely you will quickly have others jump in and follow your lead .. along those lines .. encoders are popping up everywhere too http://www.digg.com/apple/Handbrake_...nd_it_is_fast_

2nd February 2006, 18:47	#4
LuisG Junior Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 4	VP3 is also know as Theora. Theora is free for commercial or no commercial use : http://www.theora.org/theorafaq.html#14 I would like the idea of x264 streams but if i were you , i use VP3/Theora ...

2nd February 2006, 22:54	#6
sns2015 Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 218	With x264 you can watch stuff using VLC on Macs (albeit it has to be a fairly fast Mac...). Also, VLC can handle AAC+ audio (v1 only, meaning no parametric). I've been running a long experiment using on demand files with x264 and AAC+ audio and it seems to be going fine so far. And the chances of you getting sued would only be if you were selling slots of your stream or something similar to the various subscription services. Otherwise, the chances of you being sued for it are very slim. They'd go after the codec maker before the people who use it.

3rd February 2006, 13:52	#8
rockouthippie Banned Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Oregon Posts: 11,002	From the VIA license I looked at, it looks like you are licensed to use x264 for free. That's up to a distribution of 50,000 copies or $500,000 in gross revenue per project. Winamps is a bigger distribution than that, so thats Winamp. For the rest of us, I think it's pretty much fair game. What I found really annoying is that WMS will stream x264/mp3 ASF files, but WMP won't play them, even with the codec pack. Works fine with media player classic etc. This wasn't worth a post by itself, but have you guys played with the new embedded Divx plugin?. Pretty nifty.

3rd February 2006, 16:29	#10
rockouthippie Banned Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Oregon Posts: 11,002	Yeah, and that was the eventual problem that I found with WMS and shoutcast. WMS fries shoutcast if it's running. Maybe you could get VLC to do your streaming direct. VLC will make x264 asf files.... no problem (if you're fast enough). Those can be played with VLC, mplayer or either of their embedded players.

5th February 2006, 14:19	#14
arkadas.amereeh Member Join Date: Sep 2004 Posts: 65	The extra encoder and decoder is no problem, if it can be installed and configured automaticly for use (like shoutcast installer) . Only then users might be intrested to watch x264. Regards, Arkadas

5th February 2006, 22:19	#15
harkonen70 Junior Member Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 26	Decease and Insist! rock on .. and let us know of your progress!

7th February 2006, 22:00	#16
Jeeper One Major Dude Join Date: May 2003 Location: Denver, Colorado Posts: 1,055	Hi everyone: FYI PURPOSES ONLY: I'm back on the air in x264 now that I have enough videos to last awhile (That is if you count a handful of 1 1/2 to 2 hour CLASSIC Comedy and Western movie flicks APIECE as being "awhile" ). I'm listed in the Media Library, though this will likely change should StreamerP2P work out, which I expect probably will. Once I get the StreamerP2P URL, I'll put that in my sig and take the current one out). Anyhow...Cheers Pat (a.k.a. Jeeper One) Pat Cook Englewood, CO

13th February 2006, 13:54	#17
harkonen70 Junior Member Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 26	well, right from the Lama's mouth ... http://forums.winamp.com/showthread....29#post1864629 and note the reply below .. so there IS a future for x.264 support in winamp in the hopefully not too distant future ... Lets hope for a not distant future

14th February 2006, 11:27	#18
arkadas.amereeh Member Join Date: Sep 2004 Posts: 65	Did i notice the vp7 encoder and decoder dll in this somewhere in this threath

15th February 2006, 14:52	#20
harkonen70 Junior Member Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 26	true .. but I suppose better late than never ... still prefer shoutcast to darwin .. so lets hope it comes soon ..

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