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Old 14th December 2003, 23:48   #1
InvisableMan
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will saddam REALLY get a fair trial?

What are YOUR thoughts on this matter?

I believe he will, but what kind of defense attourney could bring themselves to defend someone like HIM?

Further valid subjects that I believe would be good to discuss:

>What method should be used to try him? The good-old American judge-and-jury method? Or another way? Maybe the Iraqi people should decide?

>Whatever method is chosen, who should the judge & jury, panel, whatever consist of? Only iraqis? Or a more international community?

Feel free to add any relevant topics you wish to argue on, and try to keep the flaming to a minimum.

Discuss!
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Old 15th December 2003, 00:34   #2
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I beleive Tony Blair said his fate was up to the iraqi people....
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Old 15th December 2003, 00:41   #3
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he will be given a fair trial
then executed
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Old 15th December 2003, 00:41   #4
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I hope he does, and so the USA since they are in part the ones that gave him *that* power back in the 80's
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Old 15th December 2003, 00:50   #5
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Re: will saddam REALLY get a fair trial?

Quote:
Originally posted by InvisableMan

I believe he will, but what kind of defense attourney could bring themselves to defend someone like HIM?
There were also attorneys who are currently representing John Allen Muhammad and Lee Boyd Malvo...

Note they're also costing the state many pretty pennies... http://www.sunspot.net/news/bal-te.d...home-headlines
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Old 15th December 2003, 02:16   #6
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There's a part of me that says He will get a fair trial, that he will be given his chance (however slim it is) to defend himself with whatever argument he might have to try to save himself, but then there's another side of me that thinks he won't. But to be honest, I truthfully don't care if he gets a fair trial, because I think that the trial should be in Iraq, and that the Iraqi people, who he had rotuinely murdered, should decide his fate, which I think would be death. So, in a way yes, and in another way, no.
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Old 15th December 2003, 02:53   #7
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screw fair or unfair trials, we should go back to the Middle Ages and bust out the guillotine and have ourselves a public execution, nationally televised
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Old 15th December 2003, 03:14   #8
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That will solve it, show the world that we have no class or respect whatsoever.
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Old 15th December 2003, 03:55   #9
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Quote:
Originally posted by Bizznatch
screw fair or unfair trials, we should go back to the Middle Ages and bust out the guillotine and have ourselves a public execution, nationally televised
YEAH!!!!!!!
Lets be just like he was......

no really, lets be fair
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Old 15th December 2003, 04:00   #10
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From a legality standpoint, he probably will get a fair trial, according to whatever judical system he is tried under.

But he really does not have any type of defense.
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Old 15th December 2003, 04:06   #11
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Well, i belive he should be tried at the international court of justice in The Hague...

like mr Milosevic and many before him... i do believe this is the only way he would get a fair trial.... which he most definantly is entitled to, like everyone else on this planet, satan or saint.

And it most definantly shouldn't be by the american justice system - why on earth should that be an option? it's either in Iraq or International
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Old 15th December 2003, 04:14   #12
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It should really be held in Iraq, if the US wants any support from any of the people in Iraq, they would let them hold his trial to let them know that we are with them, and that they have the right to punish him as they see fit.
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Old 15th December 2003, 05:02   #13
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what people are forgetting when talking about Saddams attrocities, is that the worst ones were commited during the war with Iran, which makes this an international matter.

Offcourse there is also the (allmost) genocide on kurds, which is a countryless people, that lives in both Iran, Turkey and Iraq. Which also adds to be belief that this should be an international trial...
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Old 15th December 2003, 05:15   #14
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True, but if the United States makes this an International Trial, the Iraqis would almost certainly feel upset at the fact that they couldn't put their Dictator on trial for all the pain and misery he had them subjected to over the last few decades.
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Old 15th December 2003, 06:27   #15
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i doubt he will get a fair trial if the USA has anything to do with it...

i say lets get the same people that worked at numerberg
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Old 15th December 2003, 10:09   #16
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Quote:
Originally posted by Horse-Fly
i doubt he will get a fair trial if the USA has anything to do with it...

i say lets get the same people that worked at numerberg
#1 he wil get a fair trial because the USA will not take saddam back to the states -so no trial in the usa but one in iraq under international laws. Besides an Iraqi Judge there will be independent judges from other countries. The concept works -See the international Court in the netherlands ( The Hague)

#2 horse fly- you really serious about that last thing you wrote??


have to dig up all those guys again???????

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Old 15th December 2003, 13:45   #17
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to be fair, there is a lot of documented evidence about several of his crimes. whether or not these are the ones he'll be tried for (and i suspect they will not - they'll probably try to get him on use of chemical weapons on the kurds etc., which has a lot less actual evidence pointing at him), he certainly deserves the maximum sentence. which should, in any sensible system, be a life sentence.

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Old 15th December 2003, 13:52   #18
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Quote:
Originally posted by zootm
he certainly deserves the maximum sentence. which should, in any sensible system, be a life sentence.
Your tax dollars can support lifers... I'll keep mine for more sensible uses.
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Old 15th December 2003, 21:28   #19
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Quote:
Originally posted by spaceplay
#1 he wil get a fair trial because the USA will not take saddam back to the states -so no trial in the usa but one in iraq under international laws. Besides an Iraqi Judge there will be independent judges from other countries. The concept works -See the international Court in the netherlands ( The Hague)

#2 horse fly- you really serious about that last thing you wrote??


have to dig up all those guys again???????
#1: well if it is an international trial, why wouldn't the States be involved? USA acts like it is the "Big Boy" around the world.

#2:
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Old 15th December 2003, 21:30   #20
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Quote:
Originally posted by ZacCrain
Your tax dollars can support lifers... I'll keep mine for more sensible uses.
Depends on the judicial system. If it's the US judicial system, and the alternative is the death penalty:

Quote:
Total cost of death penalty 38% greater than total cost of life without parole sentences. A study by Indiana's Criminal Law Study Commission found this to be true, assuming that 20% of death sentences are overturned and resentenced to life. (Indiana Criminal Law Study Commission, January 10, 2002)
http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/arti...did=108&scid=7

Counting the death sentences that resentence to life sentences toward life without parole, the cost of capital punishment is still greater. A life sentenced would be more appropriate, let him rot in a cell. No hope, no freedom.

Last edited by Namelessv1; 15th December 2003 at 21:50.
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Old 15th December 2003, 22:01   #21
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one of my classmates in world history suggested torturing him by papercuting his eyelids

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Old 16th December 2003, 00:08   #22
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well i don't like the idea of a international trial because those take to damn long, AND that throws execution out the window.

i'd like if he was detained 'till a real government is established in iraq, THEN they can kill him however they want.
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Old 16th December 2003, 03:01   #23
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Personally, I'd like the Iraqis to "handle" this one. But, since it was an international effort to some degree to topple his regime, international courts he goes. Let's be honest though, we all know he's guilty of gross atrocities, he'll be found guilty, the trial's only taking place to placate the UN and is a mere formality.
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Old 16th December 2003, 04:23   #24
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as far as i am concerned the UN can go to hell, it's a utterly useless house of clowns. nearly as useless as most of the world's politicians are. and nearly as useless as the swiss army.

condoleezza rice for president!!

besides my anti-un rant, i just dont like the idea of a international trial. screw everyone else, he was based out of iraq, he screwed iraq over more than anyone else, therefore, he should be tried in iraq. let iran watch.
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Old 16th December 2003, 04:57   #25
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Let the Iraqis handle him. It'll be as brutal as if I handled it, so I agree.

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Old 16th December 2003, 05:01   #26
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Quote:
Originally posted by InvisableMan
as far as i am concerned the UN can go to hell, it's a utterly useless house of clowns. nearly as useless as most of the world's politicians are. and nearly as useless as the swiss army.
um.. ok, so where are the weapons of mass destruction that the USA went to war for, that UN inspectors couldn't find?

Edit: i don't want to change the topic, but i just wanted to point that out
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Old 16th December 2003, 14:28   #27
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Quote:
Originally posted by Dawg4Life2K1
Total cost of death penalty 38% greater than total cost of life without parole sentences. A study by Indiana's Criminal Law Study Commission found this to be true, assuming that 20% of death sentences are overturned and resentenced to life. (Indiana Criminal Law Study Commission, January 10, 2002)
It shouldn't cost that much... 60 days... that's all they should get... if you can't come up with new evidence by then...then to the gallows... no cheaper way to do it .... but the trials should be more thorough in order to not have wrongful convictions

Why should we have to worry about being humane?? Those who kill others, (those who receive death penalties) aren't considering a humane approach when they torture and/or kill their victim... When the death penalty is carried out, it doesn't matter how you do it...(i.e. the chair... firing squad, injection, hanging) No matter the method... the person is just as dead, so why spend millions of dollars to put a criminal to death in a humane way... do it the economical way
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Old 16th December 2003, 18:13   #28
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Everyone is entitled to a fair trial, whether you think they deserve one or not. Remember, if Saddam can get a fair trial, it means you would get if required.

The place for cases of crimes against humanity is the International Court. The other place has the authority, nor will he get a fair trial anywhere else. Certainly not in Iraq and certainly not in the US.

Where he is guilty or not, I'd just like to say that he has yet to be found guilty by a court and is therefore innocent until proven guilty.

It's been said that I could start an arguement in an empty room.....I see no reason to disbelieve this.
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Old 17th December 2003, 02:42   #29
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Marvin, it's time to get of your high horse.

The crimes were committed mainly against his own people, the people of Iraq, and if they want to try him before they execute him, they are sure entitled to do so.

The international community does not even come into play here, they refused to help getting rid of this Butcher of Bagdad, why should they get to try them? Did they not say there was no reason to invade Iraq?

This would mean they are already tainted, and a fair trial would not be possible.

He killed or had killed anywhere from 500 000 to 1 000 000 people, mass graves testify to this fact. Innocent until proven guilty? Already been proven.

Yes, there will be a circus called a trial, he will be able to have the best lawyers defend him. Which is quite a bit more than his victims got. And it will be held in a manner the international community will approve of. But you can not take this away from the people of Iraq, they deserve to try him themselves.

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Old 17th December 2003, 03:19   #30
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It is decided.
He's screwed.
He will die in one of the following ways:

1) execution (regardless of the fairness of the trial)
2) an angry Iraqi mob will break into the courthouse and kill him
3) some angry dude will just shoot him (like the guy that shot JFK)
4) one of his former helpers will decide to blow him up with a bomb of some kind to send him out in a "final blast of glory"
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Old 17th December 2003, 05:47   #31
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wildrose-wally, the problem here is whether he will get a fair trial or not. The crimes he is accused of are of such magnitude (crimes against humanity) against the people of his own country that it is debatable whether Iraq is capable of holding a fair trial.

It has nothing to do with being on a high horse, it is simply a fact of common sense and I see that certain polititions and media people have not thought this through;
If Saddam is seen to have had a fair trial, then there is less chance that some people around the world will see him as a martyr. If, on the other hand, he is given a fair and just trial, then most people (importantly Iraqi's) will have be less likely to see him as a martyr.

Even the Nazis at the end of WWII were given a fair trial in front of international judges and with good lawyers to defend them. The reason is fairly obvious.....a good trial means no complaints from those who may have found sympathy with the accused.

It's in Iraq's best interest that he is given a fair trial and he seen to have been given a fair trial. Anything is vengeance and wil lead to disaster. This is a country that could very easily slip into a brutal civil war of things are handled correctly.

It's been said that I could start an arguement in an empty room.....I see no reason to disbelieve this.
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Old 17th December 2003, 06:12   #32
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marvin's correct on this point. While most of us do believe he's guilty, it's best that this goes through international courts. The sticking point will be to make this as quick as possible, gotta keep Saddam from turning it into a circus and as rallying cry for his "cause". Keep your finger's crossed that the trial will be a quick one, otherwise it may turn nasty back in Iraq.

As far as the trial in Iraq, the government there can still hold a trial if they want. I've heard of cases where trials where held while the defendant was on the run or as such. They can go through the motions, find him guilty, sentence him to whatever punishment/death they want with the understanding that the punishment could only be dealt if Saddam were to somehow pop up back there.
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Old 17th December 2003, 11:53   #33
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Fair, open trial by Iraqis. No death penalty (I'm opposed on principle).
Further trial and/or investigation by the Iranian and Kuwaiti Govs.
Imprisonment till natural death.

'In this country, it takes all the running you can do to stay in one place.'"
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Old 17th December 2003, 11:59   #34
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Quote:
Originally posted by ZacCrain
Your tax dollars can support lifers... I'll keep mine for more sensible uses.
your morals can support murder. i'll try and keep my conscience clean.

the iraqi people can decide to kill him, and they can do that. i'm just saying they really shouldn't. although their primitive tribal concepts of justice have got a lot of "eye for an eye" punishments left within them. i won't support that, though.

edit: the main argument against him being tried by iraqis is that his crimes against iran will go largely undocumented, as iraqis are not on best terms with iranians (this was not just saddam's problem).

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Old 17th December 2003, 13:31   #35
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Quote:
Originally posted by zootm
your morals can support murder. i'll try and keep my conscience clean.
I don't believe the death penalty is murder... I believe when you kill another human being (purposefully), then you forfeit your rights as a human... including your right to live.
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Old 17th December 2003, 13:33   #36
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Saddam should get his trial in Iraq, but there should be representatives from all the countries that he has been involve with, and I don’t think the Iraqis are, politically stable enough to hold such a trial therefore should be an international trail.

But this is just a Costa Rican’s opinion, we have no part on any of these wars, thankfully we have no army!!!
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Old 17th December 2003, 18:23   #37
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Quote:
Originally posted by zootm
your morals can support murder. i'll try and keep my conscience clean.

the iraqi people can decide to kill him, and they can do that. i'm just saying they really shouldn't. although their primitive tribal concepts of justice have got a lot of "eye for an eye" punishments left within them. i won't support that, though.

edit: the main argument against him being tried by iraqis is that his crimes against iran will go largely undocumented, as iraqis are not on best terms with iranians (this was not just saddam's problem).
Not flaming you zootm, but by "primitive tribal conceptes of justice" you wouldn't be thinking of our glorious free world leader, who just happens to have spent the last decade or so, executing more of his own citizens than any democratically elected leader in the world, are you?

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Old 18th December 2003, 00:12   #38
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Quote:
Originally posted by zootm
your morals can support murder. i'll try and keep my conscience clean.
"morals" simply cannot be used in the same sentence, paragraph, page, or thread as "Saddam". I can understand that you do not support murder. But this is a special case....he actually enjoyed killing millions of his own people. Morals or not, I think that most people....or at least most Iraqis...believe he deserves death. In fact, I wouldn't be against a bit of torture, but that is against my morals . So a public execution works just fine if you ask me.

[edit] killing is only murder when innocents die(as said by Robert Doherty, an excellent author). The death of someone who committed genocides is not murder. It is good riddance.[/edit]
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Old 18th December 2003, 03:01   #39
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Quote:
Originally posted by Bazman63
Not flaming you zootm, but by "primitive tribal conceptes of justice" you wouldn't be thinking of our glorious free world leader, who just happens to have spent the last decade or so, executing more of his own citizens than any democratically elected leader in the world, are you?
huh? Bush is executing? Is that what you're saying? no, wrong. brrrrt.

Bush is allowing the states to decide if they want to execute. It's not his descision. It's the states.

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Old 18th December 2003, 03:38   #40
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When he was Governor of Texas? How many? Including what the civilised world classify as children and mentaly unfit.

I don't want to start an argument about this. I am oppossed to the death penalty on principle.

But wouldn't your point mean that Saddam is only guilty of the murders he actually committed and not of fostering the climate of leathal justice. Afterall a law is a law as long as those who are ultimately in power say it's a law. (I know, I know. The legislative processes differ.)

Like Zootm I say it's a matter for the Iraqi people now and also say I don't think he should be executed.

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