Old 3rd October 2005, 22:08   #41
Phat
Major Dude
 
Phat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 940
@ Redi, Nope. Not going to give out the DX9 code.

First off the back end is all different, it just has a lot of similar functions.

Secondly it needs it's own application really. Some thing that is WAYYY more user friendly.

Thirdly, we want to be the soul input, we don't want other people claiming it's there's (or was done for them) when they've done little work.

And lastly most of them use a version of RenderMonkey that is not publicly released.

Sorry if that sounds a little Elitist.

If you'd be into doing application programming for a new application, that'd be great.

Eo.S. Can provide some input into (And possibly code examples) for some new post processing stuff.

Like Bloom in Milkdrop, which could be added even without upgrading to dx9. There's a lot of new post-processing stuff that can be done in dx8.

But Eo.S will have to get back to you on more.

(I really like shifter's idea 'bout programmable post processing functions.)
Phat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 5th October 2005, 05:44   #42
Eo.S.
Milkdrop Moderator
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 114
Quote:
@eos - i'll look into that texture thing, i just dont know how to flip them around, or blend them
flipping the image is simply a matter of changing the texture coordinates when you read from the texture [you'll want to work in pixel shader support, refer to msdn for info on this, I don't know much about specific device render calls etc. But I can provide HLSL and shader microcode all day long].

For horizontal flip, the x texture coordinate simply becomes 1-x, for vertical, the y coordinate becomes 1-y.

If you implement pixel shaders, then the blending is easily done by having the pixel shader read the texture forward, and flipped, and then giving an equation to combine them
(a+b)/2 averaged together
1-(1-a)*(1-b) inverse multiply, adds the images together, but the result never goes above 1
abs(a-b) images "invert" each other
a*(1/(1-b)) equivalent to the "color dodge" layer mode in photoshop

otherwise you have to use silly alphablending crap that requires getting shit like srcblend and destination blend modes set correctly, very annoying and way slower than just reading a texture twice or more, compositing the results, and then drawing that to screen once.
Eo.S. is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 5th October 2005, 06:22   #43
Eo.S.
Milkdrop Moderator
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 114
Quote:
Are you sure about that?

My research is that PS 1.1 is GeForce4 Ti/Radeon 8500 or above

I think it is worrying at this stage to increase the bottomline spec of MilKDrop to this high spec. Lets not make MD too elitist.
This HIGH of a spec? WTF, you can't be serious. Either one of those cards cost less than $40, and only that much because it's just impossible to build hardware for less, you can buy a radeon 9600 for $50. Pixel Shader 1.1 is 4yrs old or more, even the Xbox is pixel shader 1.3+

If you own a computer and it's video card can't even support PS1.1 then you don't give a flying fuck about gfx, and obviously don't care about milkdrop either. You can't even play video games made in the last 2yrs at all.

We're trying to move forward here, not backward. If granny wants to run milkdrop on her 333MHz she can keep using MD1.4. We're not forcing everyone who's ever downloaded MD to upgrade and delete their old versions.

You might as well say that no one is allowed to post presets with 3d waveforms, cause the preset would run really slow on a few people's ancient computers.

And if you EVER want post-process effects, pixel shaders are an absolute requirement, unless you're fine with 5fps or less.

Eo.S.
Eo.S. is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 5th October 2005, 12:48   #44
Rovastar
Moderator
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: London, England
Posts: 3,632
Send a message via AIM to Rovastar
MilkDrop is a mass downloaded app and bundled with Winamp. I think it is only fair to get a minimum spec that is reasonable.

Are we to upgrade the minimum spec of Winamp too?

After much time and hassle of asking we get MilkDrop bundled with Winamp. I don't want MilkDrop not meeting a realistic spec.

Pixel shaders from what I understand are not as widely supported as you first think.

At work I have Dell Optiplex gx270 with a 2.4Ghz CPU in it. It has a 96MB onboard graphics card an Intel 82865g. Intel as well as in Dell have these onboard graphics cards of HP/Compaq most of the time.

This graphics card does not support pixel shaders.

http://www.intel.com/support/graphics/sb/cs-014257.htm

And from what I understand brand new bog standard Dell or HP desktops still come with this onboard graphics too. A brand new dell 3GHz about 6-9 months ago had this card in it. The card is not bad it can run a fair bit of 3d stuff but not PS stuff it seems.

Not really a 333mhz granny PC is it

And you want wipe out all this userbase? The 2 most popular PC brands out there.

I actually was surprised by this myself that PS support had not been added to this card . I knew on-board card are not brilliant and I know newer ones are getting a lot better and seem to be like a GF4Ti/midrange GF5 card speed from the tests I have done but they don’t it seems have PS support.

We must consider the seriously. We do have a large userbase and I don’t want to alienate big parts of it.

We have to understand what userbase we have and what we are aiming for?

Pixelshaders will be great but maybe for version 2.

I obviously have no objections to option to ‘enable pixel shader 1.1’ support but I do object to this as a mandatory requirement by default. Hopefully you can understand why now.

We are all on the same side you know.

"Rules are for the guidance of wisemen and the obedience of fools"

Visuals - Morphyre www.Morphyre.com
Rovastar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 5th October 2005, 13:07   #45
redi jedi
Will code for food
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: orlando
Posts: 521
humm thats a tough one, would have to agree with rova in that distroing userbase is bad. although on the other hand, how many people have opened MD, seen one of the first giess presets(that was most likly only there to show authors what the proggy can do) and turned it off, never to look again?
an option to enable would solve the prob i suspose, mabye just a seprate release, after we update the original(since adding PS will prolly be alot of work)


oh and on a side note, i though of something last night..... super monitor! a seprate gui w/ an enable option in the config, that displays x number of varibals. mabye even a graph of the last y frames.... what do ya guys think?

Blah!
redi jedi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 5th October 2005, 16:28   #46
Phat
Major Dude
 
Phat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 940
"We are all on the same side you know."

No we're not, it's Pirates vs. Ninjas....

ARRRRRRRRRRRRRR...

lol

Btw, wouldn't there just be a way to auto-detect pixel shader 1.1? Then have a back up button on the config panel maybe?
Phat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 5th October 2005, 19:59   #47
Eo.S.
Milkdrop Moderator
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 114
Rova, the computers at your work are specically purchased to have the most barebones gfx support possible. I've said it before and will say it again, if you buy a computer that doesn't even have hardware ps1.1 you just don't care about gfx. But it's hard to do that now
http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage....=1124431815544
$500 Compaq, found in the "PCs for productivity" section [that's barebones], ATI Xpress 200, even this supports PS2.0
the same goes for cheapest HP computer they have listed
http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage....=1124431815188

http://66.102.7.104/search?q=cache:j...e+render&hl=en
ps1.1 is geforce 3 and radeon 8500+

And if your video card doesn't support it

if (hal_caps.PixelShaderVersion < D3DPS_VERSION(1.1, 0))
{
//code that prevents you from loading presets that use ps1.1
}

so we don't even have to put a switch in the config panel.
This is milkdrop, not iTunes.
Eo.S. is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 5th October 2005, 22:50   #48
redi jedi
Will code for food
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: orlando
Posts: 521
actualy we could just put the code that does the ps stuff in the if statment, not loading presets that use it would require adding a version number to the files, not that thats a big deal..

i think i'm gonna have to stop for a while, considering i owe my roomies about a G, i REALLY need to find a job... anyone wanna give me one?

i'll try to study pixel and vertex shaders, and DX9. i wanna pretty much rewrite MD, as i dont like the way it does alot of things, decay/bass/mid/treb all the post-processing....

Blah!
redi jedi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 6th October 2005, 01:23   #49
Phat
Major Dude
 
Phat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 940
@ redi, what do you do? (Other then being a cable guy?)

Are you going to fix the decay?

@ Fishbrain I see you.... you going to write some new presets?
Phat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 6th October 2005, 04:40   #50
redi jedi
Will code for food
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: orlando
Posts: 521
@phat well i do some programing, mostly vb.net, also asp.net and c++, i can wire almost anything(cable phone networks cctv...).. actualy i guess i CAN do just about anything... it a matter of what someone will hire me to do(seems like pretty much nothing) went and got my A+ and NET+ certs, still ant got shit, been appling my "A+" off for 2 months, only got two interviews... one of witch was for a convient store(no call back, bye the way)
really starting to feel like a worthless prick


i might update a few more things, just at night and stuff, but what i've done so far has been like all day projects(thats what i cant do anymore)

Blah!
redi jedi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 6th October 2005, 05:48   #51
Phat
Major Dude
 
Phat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 940
@ Redi, Insanity Toy 3 runs WAY slower while text is being displayed. In order to get the frame rate all the way up, you have to take away ALL of the text, including the FPS meter.

In order to view the frame rate, pulse the frame rate meter, this gives you the frame rate of this frame, before the meter starts to slow down the preset.

It runs at about 60 fps on the 9700, 80 on our 9800. Both in Milkdrop 1.04 and while the text is hidden in you're new beta 1.04b. Currently it's only running about 20 to 30 with the text.

Btw I think I'm going to make another version of this preset for milkdrop 1.04, it looks hella cool in a different way broken. (Which is often the case with presets, delete the per-pixel or per-frame, and often there is a different cool preset hidden beneath the other code.)

(Yes I do have 'Try to fix slow text (uses more video memory)' selected in the config panel.)
Phat is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply
Go Back   Winamp & Shoutcast Forums > Visualizations > MilkDrop > MilkDrop Development

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump