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Old 10th April 2014, 06:32   #41
c627627
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Originally Posted by MrSinatra View Post
its niche b/c most people using winamp don't listen to it via HDMI on their stereos, nor do they listen to TrueHD source material or similar.
Agreed that by definition, most people do not connect their computers to their Receivers through an HDMI cable.

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Originally Posted by MrSinatra View Post
and what post does it say all receivers do this?
and what is the maximum bitrate for TrueHD?
High Definition Audio appears to go as high as 24.5 Mbit/s,

Because you correctly stated that most people do not connect their computers to their Receivers through HDMI we do not know the answer to that important question: Do all Receivers delay playback of an audio file on launch? Do only some? One thing is for sure, and thank you for finding proof.

Manufacturers officially acknowledge in Receiver manuals that by design that there is a delay upon launch of a music file if using HDMI exclusively.

If that is true, and we have proof that it is, then this is no longer a niche issue but an issue of whoever connects their computer to their receiver through HDMI. There are lot of people who do that, they are not in the majority but it is a legitimate manufacturer issue that is not a mistake, but it is by design - an no software can deal with it.

The workarounds of launching another file are not worth it because you can double click on a music file, stop it, then start it again. I would love to get a plugin that would resolve this issue, I don't think one exists and I do not have the knowledge to make one. There is nothing we can do.


But this thread was very useful because it establishes existence of a flaw that no software can deal with because authors do not have their computers connected to their Receivers through an HDMI cable which is the only way to get all High Definition Audio heard in its full glory.

Just like there are people who don't think Blu-rays are that much big of a big deal over standard DVDs, there are people who don't appreciate High Definition Audio.


I was at the Consumer Electronics Show in Las Vegas where I saw the new TV 3D technology - and I felt like someone from the middle ages took a drive down a modern highway, it was that incredible. Once we experience the superiority, it's hard to go back. This is why I cannot go back to using computer speakers after connecting my computer to big quality speakers through an HDMI Receiver. The experience of Winamp Visualizations on a modern big screen Plasma combined with uncompressed music files through big quality speakers cannot be substituted.
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Old 10th April 2014, 08:23   #42
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c627627,

It is so true that it's hard to go back to the farm after you've seen New York!

I'm waiting for the variety of context to increase and the cost to come down a little before investing in that kind of gear. There are plenty of movies, but not much HD music (of the kind I most like to listen to), and no sports broadcasts beyond normal 1080p.

It's good that you're an early adopter. Someone as to be on the cutting edge (to discover the glitches).

My home theater system is in the family room in the basement, while my desktop is in my den on the 2nd floor. I installed a direct conduit between the 2 rooms years ago to shorten cable runs. Even so, running HDMI that far won't work yet, but coax and ethernet work great (not a fan of wireless yet, but it's speed and security should be improving soon). My computer's sound system can't match my THX-certified HTS, but it's not too shabby.

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Old 16th April 2015, 15:24   #43
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HDMI cuts off the very beginning of first song launched by Winamp

Manufacturers officially acknowledge in Receiver manuals that by design there is a delay upon launch of a music file if using HDMI exclusively.

This is no longer a niche issue but an issue of whoever connects their computer to receivers which do this, through HDMI. There are lot of people who do that, they are not in the majority but it is a legitimate receiver manufacturer issue that is not a mistake, but it is by design - an no software can deal with it.

Pretty please with sugar on top, would you consider giving us an option, just an option, in future versions, of some sort of a custom delay to deal with this issue?


In the other threads, we established that second and subsequent songs play just fine but if you double click on a music file and Winamp launches for the first time, sometimes the very beginning of the song is cut off just a bit, if you are using HDMI exclusively. This is by design of HDMI "kicking in" with slight delay and so hypothetically, maybe delaying the first song start slightly would avoid that problem?

I understand that a few years ago Winamp authors shot down this solution because it increases the complexity in the code implementation... but in 2015 maybe there are more people using HDMI exclusively?

This, again, is in receiver manuals as a fact of the way receivers function, this in not some sort of a single-user unique situation. Shouldn't Winamp have an answer for this, even if "most people" do not use HDMI exclusively? Do we really still need to wait until "enough" people start using HDMI exclusively for this issue to be addressed in Winamp?

If so, I hope you don't mind if I ask in 2017 again...
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Old 17th April 2015, 04:42   #44
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These receivers need a little time (fraction of a second) to 'diagnose' what's coming in before starting the output. Delaying the start of the first song will not solve the problem of not hearing the first little bit of the song.

Starting each playlist with a short sound (a lead in so to speak) that you don't mind not hearing the start of would be a solution, but Winamp sometimes skips over very short files.

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Old 17th April 2015, 05:13   #45
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Thank you for posting.
For a specific situation of:
1. Winamp closed.
2. Double click on a music file.
3. Winamp launches to play it but you actually hear the song kick in half a second into the song.
4. No problems whatsoever thereafter - you can double click on any song file to start it correctly, you can play any playlist - no problems whatsoever.

For a specific situation of *only* the first double click launch problem - what would, in theory, resolve it?


I apologize if you already did explain this but would you explain how inserting a half second delay that would only be there once when the program is first started, why would that not resolve the specific scenario problem above?
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Old 17th April 2015, 16:28   #46
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I understand your frustration, however the quote from your receiver's manual (that I stated in post #23 above) says that the receiver needs time to 'sense' the audio input when starting or switching audio formats.

Having Winamp delay the start of playback will not solve this issue since the receiver's audio input would still need to be sensed whenever a song starts.

As to the scenario you stated above, it seems like you would need Winamp to start and then restart the selected song a half second later, when Winamp is first launched. I don't think the developers would want to add such a feature (even as an option). You can restart the song yourself manually by clicking the play button (but restarting at the 'perfect' point would be tricky) and you would need to use a user interface skin that doesn't change the play button into a pause button after playback starts.

This is really something the receiver's vendor needs to solve, imo. Buffering or something that would allow the audio to be sensed and the sound output started afterwards, so that the entire song could be heard. Even-though the sensing seems to occur very quickly, intentionally clipping the first note of a song is not a good thing, imo. Have you tried to get the vendor to respond to this?

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Old 17th April 2015, 16:59   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aminifu View Post
As to the scenario you stated above, it seems like you would need Winamp to start and then restart the selected song a half second later, when Winamp is first launched. I don't think the developers would want to add such a feature (even as an option). You can restart the song yourself manually by clicking the play button (but restarting at the 'perfect' point would be tricky) and you would need to use a user interface skin that doesn't change the play button into a pause button after playback starts.
and to add to Aminifu's comment, it's overall too niche, too fiddly and too much of a hack for something that who knows how many people it might affect or not (as all this is being done against a _specific_ usage case with specific hardware). as we've already covered.

and who's to know if making Winamp re-start playback after 0.5s is even going to help as if this is a timing-specific scenario could mean that the value will vary between Winamp runs and thus need it to be changed depending on how fast Winamp can start, whatever else is running on the machine at the time and so on.

you should just try and enable crossfading on starting playback (if using out_ds) and set that low enough to ramp up things so it's not missing too much but also not be too jarring. that is the only viable in-Winamp option that might help as with the current state of Winamp development, there's not going to be such twiddly options added (and pestering in 2017 or whenever isn't going to help either). especially as delaying playback start is very unlikely to help if the device is just eating the data and then ignoring it (a bad design imho).
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Old 17th April 2015, 17:29   #48
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Originally Posted by Aminifu View Post
This is really something the receiver's vendor needs to solve, imo.
Please let me make sure I understand you both.
You still appear to be treating this as an individual receiver problem.
I would gladly view the solution as simply replacing the receiver.

Could you both please clarify, it is my understanding that this issue is *not* the receiver's fault.

If it is true that this issue is normal if you use HDMI only - then your posts could be (wrongly or not) interpreted as "who cares about people who use HDMI only".


Another clarification is this:
I can double click on a song to *first* start Winamp. The problem manifests itself.

As soon as the problem manifests itself - the problem is resolved thereafter. I can simply double click on the song file again and it will kick in immediately without a problem. Therefore the workarounds are unnecessary. The topic is what can be done in theory, to accomplish this:
1. Computer off.
2. Start computer. Double click on song file.
3. Song starts immediately without delay and without manually doing anything else.

In other words, starting the song, having it frustrate you by not letting you hear the very beginning of it. Then restarting the song. That would be equally annoying even if it was automated instead of manual.

The question is, how can the annoyance of *ever* hearing the delayed start be avoided?


But of course, the most important part of your reply is the term "overall too niche" - directly implying that this is an individual receiver problem and not a problem for all or most people who use HDMI exclusively. So that your reply could be interpreted as if you are saying that whoever uses HDMI exclusively is overall too niche...

Also, how do you enable crossfading? I'd like to test that.
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Old 17th April 2015, 18:35   #49
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I do care and I agree with DrO that there is nothing practical that Winamp can do about the issue. I think I've make it as clear as I can that I think the problem is with your receiver and all receivers designed to work the way yours does.

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Originally Posted by c627627 View Post
Also, how do you enable crossfading? I'd like to test that.
As DrO said, you need to be using the DirectSound Output plug-in (or a 3rd party plug-in that provides crossfading). You can enable and setup DirectSound's crossfading in it's configuration options. Go to General Preferences - Plug-ins - Output (on the left side) and find the plug-in the list on the right side. Select it and click the "Configure" button at the bottom. The setup options are on the "Fading" tab in the window that opens.

Some skins allow DirectSound's crossfading to be controlled from the skin (look on the Winamp equalizer's panel/window). There are several threads/posts that discuss crossfading that you can search for in the forums. The link to the search feature is at the top of every page and in the "Forum Jump" control at the bottom of every page (http://forums.winamp.com/search.php).

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Old 17th April 2015, 19:36   #50
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isn't it possible to create a 3rd party plugin whose job it would be to output an almost inaudible basstone for say 3 seconds (adjustable) everytime winamp is started from a stopped or paused state, and then continue with the loaded playlist?

I'm not saying it should be native, but if winamp could allow this, and someone was willing to code the plugin, it seems useful. while I agree its niche, its prob not a small niche, esp as time marches on. I have a dedicated laptop I use to do video on my TV, but I also use it to do winamp.

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Old 17th April 2015, 20:42   #51
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Originally Posted by c627627 View Post
But of course, the most important part of your reply is the term "overall too niche" - directly implying that this is an individual receiver problem and not a problem for all or most people who use HDMI exclusively. So that your reply could be interpreted as if you are saying that whoever uses HDMI exclusively is overall too niche...
clearly it's not common as plenty of people seem to use HDMI connections to monitors with speakers without issue. as you're saying it's explicitly stated in the manual for a specific device, then that makes it device specific and so is why everything that has been said over the last year or so has been said. and as there's not been a stream of "me too" posts, or even existing threads, it therefore is something either many see and don't report or it's rare.

either way, what you want done to Winamp will not be done (as we appear to have shown will just not help), the crossfade thing (if it works) is an abuse of an existing feature but it is the nearest to do what you're wanting and is the only viable thing to do without someone making / altering an existing 3rd party plug-in to do what you want (and which we don't believe will work). so you've got the best alternative I can think off with Winamp's current development state and if that doesn't work, then you'll need to find some other solution, but nothing official will be done to remediate this issue as it cannot be done.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aminifu View Post
Some skins allow DirectSound's crossfading to be controlled from the skin (look on the Winamp equalizer's panel/window).
the start option isn't controlled via that skin option, just track to track transitions.
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Old 17th April 2015, 21:20   #52
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Perhaps people don't consider this issue significant enough to post a stream of posts here. I take it you guys do not have your main computers connected to your main stereo in the living room through HDMI out of your video card?

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Originally Posted by Aminifu View Post
I've made it as clear as I can that I think the problem is with your receiver and all receivers designed to work the way yours does.
We've made considerable progress. What sets "all receivers designed to work the way mine does" apart form those that do not. Let's figure that out and I and others can then simply buy a different receiver. How do we know what we have and what to buy instead?
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Old 17th April 2015, 21:32   #53
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isn't it possible to create a 3rd party plugin whose job it would be to output an almost inaudible basstone for say 3 seconds (adjustable) everytime winamp is started from a stopped or paused state, and then continue with the loaded playlist?
If the statement in the manual is true, c627627's receiver needs to detect the characteristics (encoding, bit depth, sampling rate, etc) of the songs being played. So it is not just the start-up of the 1st song that is clipped, but also when a song with different characteristics is played.

So the plug-in would have to be able to play different kinds of tones (to match the characteristics of the song that would be played after it). The plug-in would also need to be able to 'tell' which tone to use.

Other than a start and quick restart (if the delay interval is consistent), the best (but impractical) workaround that I can think of would be to copy a brief piece (about a second) of the start of each song, reduce the volume substantially (I'm not sure if it even needs to be audible), and append it to the beginning of each song. This can be done for mp3s. I don't know if the tools exist that would work with other formats. Of course this 'solution' would probably prevent gapless playback, if not done perfectly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by c627627 View Post
What sets "all receivers designed to work the way mine does" apart form those that do not. Let's figure that out and I and others can then simply buy a different receiver. How do we know what we have and what to buy instead?
Read the manuals and ask the vendors.

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Old 18th April 2015, 00:26   #54
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If you encounter people with setups consisting exclusively of HDMI connections to receivers, would you please ask them if they ever noticed the first song they launch kick in late?

If I recall correctly, this is a problem associated with double click > launch Winamp, not if Winamp is already up and running.
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Old 18th April 2015, 00:57   #55
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stop going over the same thing again and again. geez, we get it, it doesn't play the start for you when you first start Winamp. there's no need to keep repeating that in most of your posts.

just try the cross-fading thing, report if it does or doesn't work. if it does, good for you, if it doesn't, find someone to code / update a custom output plug-in for you or look at another player which better fits your needs and doesn't have the issue.
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Old 18th April 2015, 01:53   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aminifu View Post
also when a song with different characteristics is played.
I don't claim to know what will work or not, but my guess is most people have consistent characteristics in their tunes. I don't know what percent of my stuff is 256kbps 16bit 44.1, but I bet its a lot of it, so maybe u could set it [a plugin] to match whats most common.

and maybe a plugin could detect the characteristics of the next upcoming song, and crossfade inaudible sounds etc, but I'm just bloviating, I know its a lot to ask for this issue.

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Old 18th April 2015, 15:12   #57
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Regarding "a song with different characteristics is played" I wanted to point out that with everything off, I double click on a .wav file and the problem was there this morning.

Thereafter, with everything off, I can double click on any .wav file or any .mp3 file for example and the problem is not there. In other words, only upon initial launch, as if the receiver was sleeping and the initial launch says to the receiver to "wake up" and after it "wakes it up" - no problems.
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Old 6th May 2015, 16:47   #58
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Have you seen this yet?

http://www.avsforum.com/forum/90-rec...l#post20870748
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Old 6th May 2015, 18:41   #59
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Thank you for the suggestion.

I have tested that turning the Audio Delay feature ON does not help.

With it switched to ON, I double clicked on a music file to directly open the Associated player (Winamp) and the song was cut off a fraction of a second. Thereafter double clicking on music files launched Winamp and songs played without a problem.

This only happens on initial launch, but unfortunately Auto Delay feature did not help.
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