Old 24th June 2004, 19:59   #41
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Quote:
Originally posted by CaboWaboAddict
Thanks for the grmatkle kerecshun! I tuk Evlin Wudhed's Sped Reedn' Korse.

My point is this: where do you draw the line? hence the objectionable example(s).

You make a distintion between a cluster of cells and a fetus. I do not. To me a human embryo is just that: a human embryo.

I ask again where do you draw the line? At conception? at 1 month? at 4? at birth?, how about 1 year? I say you cannot draw a line. I believe that life begins at conception. I doubt that you can prove that wrong. If you can't then your arguments make no sense.
If sentient human life begins at contraception, the government should be required to give embryos a birth certificate and a social security number.

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Old 24th June 2004, 20:30   #42
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In all honesty, that's probably a good idea in the current scheme of things, what with identity being so important.

If human cloning ever gets off the ground, we'd need a system like that.
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Old 24th June 2004, 20:34   #43
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Quote:
Originally posted by m²k
If sentient human life begins at contraception, the government should be required to give embryos a birth certificate and a social security number.
I never said sentient. In fact I posed an argument against using that distinction... walk into any hospital and kill off the comatose vegetable of your choice - remember?

A birth cert. is just that: a certificate of live birth. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it only implies that life has passed a milestone, it doesn't say the the baby became alive at birth. It states the baby was born alive. To be born alive, implies that the baby was alive before that.

Correct me if I'm wrong here too... you can't get a SS# without a birth certificate.

So, what is your point?


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Old 24th June 2004, 21:56   #44
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Many states allow people to choose not to resuscitate family members, provided it's what they wish.

I'm saying that if you argue that an embryo is as alive as a baby out of the womb, it should be given the same privleges.

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Old 24th June 2004, 22:11   #45
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this is not about abortion...but if someone does have one, there is still that "fetus" there. What would you do with it? Throw it away? Give it a burial? Mourn it? I dont understand why you would be so upset about using it for research. ITS ALREADY DEAD!!! Many ppl sign there bodies over to research after they die. Children's parents are the ones who sign them up.

Q: If good could come from a dead body, what is wrong with that?

Quote:
A birth cert. is just that: a certificate of live birth. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it only implies that life has passed a milestone, it doesn't say the the baby became alive at birth. It states the baby was born alive. To be born alive, implies that the baby was alive before that.
how true. It is alive, that why there is Roe v Wade prohibiting 3rd trimester abortions!!!

A bunch of cells, however are not alive. ALIVE is having brain activity, having a functioning heart. does a group of 50 cells have a Pulse? Noperz, sorry.
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Old 24th June 2004, 23:21   #46
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billyvnilly, I'm not leaning towards either side in saying this, but there's quite a few kinds of living things on earth that don't fit your definition of "alive."
Quote:
A bunch of cells, however are not alive. ALIVE is having brain activity, having a functioning heart. does a group of 50 cells have a Pulse? Noperz, sorry.
Eh...
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Old 24th June 2004, 23:31   #47
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well i certainly am, cuz thats what i will hopefully be doing after 6 or 7 more years.

I wasnt saying other things arent alive, but im just referring to human life. these are the defintions of a human "life" to me.


My only main point was the first point i made about being wasteful. the second was just cuz i read that quote as i was replying to cabo.


this is a moot point, what other threads are out there?
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Old 24th June 2004, 23:35   #48
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I suggest the one about Moodlogic. But that's just me.
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Old 25th June 2004, 03:05   #49
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Quote:
Originally posted by m²k
Many states allow people to choose not to resuscitate family members, provided it's what they wish.
Letting someone die of natural causes is not the same as killing someone that could live.

Quote:
Originally posted by m²k
I'm saying that if you argue that an embryo is as alive as a baby out of the womb, it should be given the same privleges.
My point exactly! Thanks!

Quote:
Originally posted by billyvnilly
this is not about abortion...but if someone does have one, there is still that "fetus" there. What would you...
Stop right there. You're assuming that I agree with abortion. I don't. So your premise is bad to start with.

Quote:
Originally posted by billyvnilly
A bunch of cells, however are not alive. ALIVE is having brain activity, having a functioning heart. does a group of 50 cells have a Pulse? Noperz, sorry.
A heart does not constitute human life, nor does a brain for that matter. Remember my example of the comatose vegetable? How about heart transplant patients? They don't have a human heart anymore. Its Ok to off them?

Quote:
Originally posted by billyvnilly
I wasnt saying other things arent alive, but im just referring to human life. these are the defintions of a human "life" to me.
I hope you develop a better appreciation for human life in those 6-7 years.

Quote:
Originally posted by billyvnilly
this is a moot point, what other threads are out there?
Too bad, I was really hoping you could show me where I am wrong.

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Old 25th June 2004, 03:15   #50
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It's like "Quote, Counter-Quote" in here
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Old 25th June 2004, 03:26   #51
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Yeah Buddy

Mas tequila!

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Old 25th June 2004, 03:30   #52
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Quote:
Originally posted by ElChevelle
It's like "Quote, Counter-Quote" in here
Like he said!

Quote:
Originally posted by CaboWaboAddict
Yeah Buddy

Mas tequila!
What do you mean yeah buddy?
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Old 25th June 2004, 03:32   #53
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Quote:
Mas tequila!
Obviously you have a tequila fixation.

Quote:
It's like "Quote, Counter-Quote"
Obviously you know nothing of quote counter quote's true usage, or application.

Quote:
It's like
No it's not. Shut up.
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Old 25th June 2004, 03:33   #54
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Originally posted by Phyltre
No it's not.
Yes it's not!



The sky is blue.
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Old 25th June 2004, 03:38   #55
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Sure, it aint.

I need a drink!

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Old 25th June 2004, 03:54   #56
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Quote:
The sky is blue
What sky? Do you mean SKYY, as in the vodka? It might be a teal or aquamarine. Give that to CaboWabo.
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Old 25th June 2004, 04:08   #57
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Vodka??? Do you want me to curl up and die??? (don't answer that Germ!)

The closest I come to drinking vodka, is the bottle of turpentine I have stashed in my basement!

mas tequila!

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Old 25th June 2004, 04:15   #58
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I'm gathering from that last post that you have a severe problem, Cabo. I'm envisioning what must be a morbidly gaunt frame accentuated by a two-foot protrusion known as a potgut. You must be surgically attached to some bovine life-support creature, what with the hemmoraging liver and mouth that has long since lost all signs of teeth.

But then, maybe not!

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Old 25th June 2004, 04:54   #59
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CAbo, i understand ur against abortion, thats why i said it was after the fact someone had one. Its already happened, its in the past, you cant change that...now there is a "fetus"...so that is my question...what would you do with the fetus? I just want to know.


Quote:
A heart does not constitute human life, nor does a brain for that matter. Remember my example of the comatose vegetable? How about heart transplant patients? They don't have a human heart anymore. Its Ok to off them?
ooooo you got me?!? more defined for you then: an organ that pumps blood. I can accept death. perhaps death is the next step for a vegetable, perhaps not, but it is still an option.

Quote:
I hope you develop a better appreciation for human life in those 6-7 years.
they are alreay gonna fucking die--the mother has ALREADY HAD THE ABORTION REMEMBER!!! Considering you are stubborn to change your opinion, wtf? respect my opinion AT LEAST. i am comfortable with the knowledge that the body is only a vessel, the person will be saved(etc.) I will mean no disrespect to the dead fetus...but one day scientists will use those dead fetus' to cure disease. "isnt that worth fighting for, isnt that worth dying for?"


and i wont put words in phyltre's mouth but i did not really know what he was referring to? were u referring to a developing fetus or bacteria and the like?
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Old 25th June 2004, 13:16   #60
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BV, I feel that aborting a human life is wrong. If you don't want to talk about that fine...

Again, I feel the premise to your argument is wrong. This thread was about cloning solely for the purpose of doing reasearch. Its not about collecting dead fetus' from abortion clinics to experiment on. To create a human life for the sole purpose of destroying it is wrong.

If you feel killing is an option for a comatose vegetable, you also need to get some respect for human life.

Quote:
Originally posted by Phyltre
... you have a severe problem, Cabo. I'm envisioning what must be a morbidly gaunt frame accentuated by a two-foot protrusion known as a potgut. You must be surgically attached to some bovine life-support creature, what with the hemmoraging liver and mouth that has long since lost all signs of teeth.
Pretty accurate description! You forgot the hamster, the black seeping sores, the patchy hair, and the glass of Cabo though!

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Old 25th June 2004, 13:59   #61
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Quote:
Originally posted by CaboWaboAddict
Letting someone die of natural causes is not the same as killing someone that could live.
What about pulling the plug on somebody who will just become a vegetable? They could still live.

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Old 25th June 2004, 18:32   #62
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What about pulling the plug on somebody who will just become a vegetable? They could still live.
WTF??? Actively killing someone is wrong. Do you disagree with that?

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Old 25th June 2004, 18:35   #63
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I think that if a person will live the rest of their life in constant pain or as a vegetable, the family can agree to turn off the life support machine.

And please tell me you oppose capital punishment.

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Old 25th June 2004, 18:54   #64
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Quote:
Originally posted by m²k
I think that if a person will live the rest of their life in constant pain or as a vegetable, the family can agree to turn off the life support machine.

And please tell me you oppose capital punishment.
Three different issues here...

1. In pain. No.
2. Vegetable. Dead brain, no hope of recovery, can not live without permanent artificial life support, Yes.
3. Capital punishment. Yes, the key word here is punishment.

EDIT: Let's get back on topic here.

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Old 25th June 2004, 21:03   #65
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Quote:
Originally posted by CaboWaboAddict
BV, I feel that aborting a human life is wrong. If you don't want to talk about that fine...

Again, I feel the premise to your argument is wrong. This thread was about cloning solely for the purpose of doing reasearch. Its not about collecting dead fetus' from abortion clinics to experiment on. To create a human life for the sole purpose of destroying it is wrong.

If you feel killing is an option for a comatose vegetable, you also need to get some respect for human life.
First, answer my flipping question.
Quote:
so that is my question...what would you do with the fetus? I just want to know.
Second, you should do research into how they will do research in cloning...THEY USE STEM CELLS FROM A DEAD FETUS!!! youre thinking of the typical "clone a person...ACTUAL cloning involves taking blank(stem) cells and swaying them to form a certain cell...So, no my argument is not wrong. They will need stem cells to do research. The place where they get those stem cells is from abortion clinics. I never said i agree with abortion, i said it already happened, now you have to deal with the end result. Answer my question!


As for the human life, i have respect for human life, i also can accept death, apparently you cannot. Death is a natural process.
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Old 25th June 2004, 23:56   #66
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Another non-sided statement:

Part of the reason that medical science is so important to us, (and incidentally a good portion of the reason for the necessity of stem cell research) is that human beings have trouble just accepting death. You have to admit that putting off death is one of the major aims of medical research.

It is not death, but certain causes of death that we all find objectionable; we all adjust to the idea of death in and of itself to varying degrees.

As a society we are unprepared to confront an issue referencing such deep feelings and convictions--especially when, as a previous poster said, each side knows they are right.
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Old 26th June 2004, 00:20   #67
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yes i agree.

from a woman that wrote a book on bereavement,
Quote:
"We have to ask ourselves whether medicine is to remain a humanitarian and respected profession or a new but depersonalized science in the service of prolonging life rather than diminishing human suffering."
--Elisabeth Kubler-Ross M.D.
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Old 26th June 2004, 04:03   #68
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Quote:
Originally posted by billyvnilly
First, answer my flipping question.

Second, you should do research into how they will do research in cloning...THEY USE STEM CELLS FROM A DEAD FETUS!!! youre thinking of the typical "clone a person...ACTUAL cloning involves taking blank(stem) cells and swaying them to form a certain cell...So, no my argument is not wrong. They will need stem cells to do research. The place where they get those stem cells is from abortion clinics. I never said i agree with abortion, i said it already happened, now you have to deal with the end result. Answer my question!
My, testy aren't we!

The question is irrelevant because there should not be a dead fetus to begin with. I can not condone it because I can not condone abortion. Don't tell me I'm wrong about the cloning part and here's why: If the researchers could clone new cells they would do that instead of depending on aborted fetus'. So my argument still is valid - there are two ways to get the living human to experiment on - abort a fetus or create a new life in the lab. They just haven't done the second one - yet.

Now if your talking about a natural miscarriage, then it may be a different story. I haven't really thought about that one yet.

And, by the way, I don't have to deal with the end result. I didn't generate it.

Quote:
Originally posted by billyvnilly
As for the human life, i have respect for human life, i also can accept death, apparently you cannot. Death is a natural process.
Why do you believe I can not accept death? I simply can't accept killing someone to enhance others lives.

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Old 26th June 2004, 04:57   #69
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Cabo, abortion is going to continue whether you condone it or not. Sure fine, there "SHOULDN'T" be a dead fetus but THERE IS. So, you can either try to save more lives by using these stem cells because these abortions WILL continue, or you can just let these people die when you could have possibly done something to save them. I think that's simple enough logic for you to understand.
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Old 26th June 2004, 05:08   #70
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Yeah, I understand that one person can't make much of a difference against popular opinion. But I can speak my mind at every opportunity, and try to convince others that it is wrong.

I would like to ask all the people who argued against me a couple of questions...
Have you held you're own newborn child and looked deep into its eyes and realized how much that babe is dependant on you?
Have you realized how much love you have for it that didn't just start when it was born?

Now try to picture dissecting it so its older brother could have a new heart.

I don't see much difference in your position.

BTW. If you say you don't have any kids, deduct 50 points.

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Old 26th June 2004, 09:13   #71
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Quote:
Have you held you're own newborn child and looked deep into its eyes and realized how much that babe is dependant on you?
Have you realized how much love you have for it that didn't just start when it was born?

Now try to picture dissecting it so its older brother could have a new heart.
I just want to point one thing out. Saving lives with Stem Cell Research doesn't require a baby to be grown and cut open if that's what your example implies. Cells can be applied to actual tissue and can heal or re-grow tissue. This requires no cloning, but some people are against this too.

But if your example does require growing a full person to have it's part, it's should be banned in every way possible. Please excuse me if I missed something. I did not get to read every part of this thread.
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Old 26th June 2004, 13:11   #72
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My point is this...
There is no magic line in the sand when suddenly the life becomes human. It is human life from the start. Given that, it is wrong to abort and it is wrong to experiment on that life if it destroys, damages, or inflicts pain on the life present.

Since I believe there is no line to cross, that life begins at conception, then my example is a valid description of a different place others could choose to draw the line.

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Old 27th June 2004, 17:07   #73
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i have delivered 3 children (yes i caught them) so dont tell me i dont know what its like to look into a newborns eyes.

First off, there is one hellof a difference between cutting open a born baby than using a microscope to remove tiny tiny cells from a dead fetus. your arguement isnt very good bc, you cant disect a glob of jelly(as opposed to flesh and formed organs).


HAve you ever looked into the eyes of a kid with a face deformity (bone cancer, cleft lip, missing eye, deformed nose, etc.) or a woman who has had a 2xmasectomy(removing the breat--cause of cancer) Or perhaps wathced someone slowly die from cystic fibrosis. hmmm, ok? There is a reason to study this.

@CABO...Well, ok, so if it wasnt an abortion, but a miscarriage, what would u do with the fetus(btw, this is in the first trimester)? bury, or donate to science?
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Old 27th June 2004, 18:53   #74
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You people sure are playing hardball.
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Old 27th June 2004, 23:52   #75
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BV, you missed my point...
Quote:
Since I believe there is no line to cross, that life begins at conception, then my example is a valid description of a different place others could choose to draw the line.
I'm not suggesting that's what's being done, I am simply asking: where do you draw the line?

About kids, I have two, so maybe you're more experienced???

I had a birth deformity, what's your point? I'm really glad my mother didn't believe in abortion.

Look, we both feel we have valid points, you are not going to convince me with this retoric, I've heard it all before. No one has answered the simple question I pose. I doubt anyone can. So like I said before, let's agree to disagree.

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Old 28th June 2004, 02:03   #76
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no i dont have more experince than you, cause they werent my kids. u beat me there.


Quote:
I had a birth deformity, what's your point? I'm really glad my mother didn't believe in abortion.
no,no,no thats not what i meant, i meant that this research would be tools to cure birth defects, i certainly dont believe in abortion bc of these.

I say that the line exists somewhere after conception. Personally, i would say when the vascular system is developed, but thats just me(it has alot to do with embryology + development)


question: if there was a woman who miscarried, would you bury fetus, or use fetus in research?


Of course i agree to disagree, just sometimes it feels good to voice you opinion, and get to hear the other side of the story, that u are obviously unaware of.
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Old 28th June 2004, 12:58   #77
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Some important facts:

A fetus is the name given after the first 3 month after conception.

Before that it is called embryo.

In some legislaton (e.g. Austria), human life is legaly defined only beginning with a fetus, i.e. legaly an embryo does NOT have the privileges of a human.

This is actually correct, as the nervous system starts to develop only after that period (actually neurolation starts earlier, but the brain structure as found in the adult human develops only after that).

So indeed, an embryo is just a bunch of cells.

I perfectly agree with scientific cloning. Some percieved misconceptions about this subject are that a fetus will be killed => false. Once the fetus (less than 22 weeks) is delivered, it is DEAD. Even in foreseable future, the medicine won't be able to keep a <22 wk fetus alive.

An embryo can be kept in cryostasis, but after a time period (in different legislation slightly different periods), the embryos (from in-vitro fertilization) are killed and destroyed.

So, there would be enough research material with actually no need to get additional embryos/fetuses.

Kind regars,

discoleo.
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Old 28th June 2004, 23:08   #78
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Quote:
Originally posted by billyvnilly
question: if there was a woman who miscarried, would you bury fetus, or use fetus in research?
Already answered this... I haven't formed an opinion yet.


Quote:
Originally posted by billyvnilly
Of course i agree to disagree, just sometimes it feels good to voice you opinion, and get to hear the other side of the story, that u are obviously unaware of.
WTF? Why slam me? I obviously listen to other opinions or I wouldn't be conversing with you!

Quote:
Originally posted by discoleo
In some legislaton (e.g. Austria), human life is legaly defined only beginning with a fetus, i.e. legaly an embryo does NOT have the privileges of a human.
Legaly right does not imply or mean morally right.

I'm gonna be quite busy for a while working OT, so I'll try to follow this but I may not respond in a timely manner.

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Old 29th June 2004, 22:58   #79
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Quote:
Originally posted by CaboWaboAddict
WTF? Why slam me? I obviously listen to other opinions or I wouldn't be conversing with you!
sorry, i didnt mean it that way...honestly no disrespect, i probably would have been better to phrase it "u or i" my mistake.
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Old 30th June 2004, 04:54   #80
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Originally posted by CaboWaboAddict
I had a birth deformity,
Is this it??







Never fear ... modern medicine can remove this growth from your hand for you. Granted the healing process entails withdraw symptoms ranging from nausea, delerium, to loss of sexual desire, caused by you missing the unsightly growth on your hand, your determination to overcome it's absence can prevail.








NOTICE: This post is not intended to incite public unrest, nor as ridicule toward the quoted posters' misfortune. It is merely posted with the sole intention of lightening the spirits of an otherwise tense topic noted throughout the thread.
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