Old 12th June 2020, 17:21   #1
Kreeep
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Matrix Mixer plugin settings

Hi,

First post here. Long time user. Probably close to 20 years now :P

I have multiple surround sound setups at home and for whatever reason, upmixing stereo with speaker fill doesn't really work. I discovered the Matrix Mixer plugin and it works a treat. However, being a noob, I was wondering whether it's easy to set it up so the back channels play the exact same audio as the front channels, rather than splitting the audio into a virtual 5.1 mix.

I had also discovered the VL Sound plugin, which does do what I want by default, but for whatever reason it causes some distortion with one of my setups and also is not compatible with playing tracks that are already 5.1 to begin with, unlike Matrix Mixer, which does.

Thanks for any help
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Old 12th June 2020, 21:35   #2
Aminifu
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Simple:
Select the Mixer panel and make notes of all the settings on this panel (in case you want to return to them). Make sure the options; auto gain control, auto matrix, and bass redirection are disabled. Enter the values from your notes that were (or are) in the L, C and R columns of the mixing matrix for the L' row in the L' and SL' rows. Enter the values from your notes that were (or are) in the L, C and R columns of the mixing matrix for the R' row in the R' and SR' rows. This causes the rear 2 channels to receive the same audio output as the front 2 channels.

How It Works:
Each column in the mixing matrix represents an input channel from the source file. Each row in the mixing matrix represents an output channel for your audio device. The values in each box that intersects a column and row control how much of an input channel's volume is directed to an output channel. 0 = 0%, 1.0 = 100% and 0.7071 = 50%.

I'll leave it up to you to determine what values equal 25%, 75%, 125% and any other volume percentage you may want to use. I suggest you use no more than 125% to prevent distortion (100% or less for some songs and/or setups).

Tips:
Some stereo songs (based on how they were engineered; stereo, joint stereo, dual stereo) have mostly different sound in each channel or mostly the same sound with slight differences.

Negative values can be used to subtract the same sound used in both input channels from an output channel. For example using 1.0 (or -1.0) for the L column and -1.0 (or 1.0) for the R column for the L' row will direct to the left front output channel only the sounds that are different in the left and right input channels.

Instead of using all of one input channel and none of the opposite input channel for an output channel, you can add or subtract some or all of each input channel for redirection to an output channel.

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Old 13th June 2020, 06:56   #3
Kreeep
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Wow. Thanks man! I really appreciate the lengthy and detailed response Got it all set up now. I might consider lower the volume on the center and rear channels a little to give a little more of a genuine stereo sound. But yeah, thanks!

Any idea if there are plugins out there that support upmixing to 7.1? Got another setup out in the living room with a home theater system.
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Old 13th June 2020, 20:29   #4
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Sorry, I don't know of any working 2 to 7.1 channel upmixing plug-ins.

Matrix Mixer is based on the AC3Filter. If you want more of the technical details, visit this website (http://ac3filter.sourceforge.net/ac3...eng.html#usage).

The matrix mixer output plug-in and the free version of the Stereo Tool DSP plug-in are my favorite Winamp (and now WACUP) plug-ins. They let me play at being a sound engineer and enhance my stereo files and/or create various virtual 5.1 soundscapes. The high and low band pass filters in Stereo Tool let me block the high and low frequencies in my source files that my speakers (including the subwoofer) can't reproduce. This helps eliminate or reduce distortion.

Have fun trying various values in the mixing matrix. In my previous post I referred to input channel volume. I should have said input channel content. Just use the mixing matrix to move stuff from input channels to output channels. Use the Gains panel to adjust individual channel volumes (up or down).

I've found that making subtle changes with a DSP plug-in can result in drastic changes (good and bad) in the sound. Of course, this depends on the quality of the source files. A DSP (or equalizer) plug-in can't add anything that is not already present in the source file.

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Last edited by Aminifu; 13th June 2020 at 21:33.
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Old 23rd June 2020, 04:56   #5
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Sorry about the delayed response.

AC3 is limited to 6 channels, I presume. That's fine. Definitely a nice step up from stereo.

I attempted to try out Stereo Tool DSP but struggled to work out how to use it correctly :P Currently, I use FxSound Enhancer as an overall DSP for Windows. I know a lot of people would think it's blasphemy. Mind you, many people would think upmixing stereo is blasphemy too. I'm pretty happy with how things sound though.

Unfortunately, setting Matrix Mixer from anything other than auto matrix does mean that if I play a 5.1 audio file through it, it won't be recognised as true 5.1. Because of this, I've set Matrix Mixer back to default, with auto matrix on. It makes life easier for me, so I don't have to fiddle with anything when the occasional 5.1 track plays.

Ha, oh yes. I make sure the my source files are of an adequate quality.

Thanks for your detailed replies and info. Really appreciate it
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Old 23rd June 2020, 19:05   #6
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Yes, AC3 is limited to 6 channels. It would have been nice if it's developer had updated it to handle up to 8. I assume he has moved on to other things considering how much time has passed.

I'm not an audiophile (i.e. trying to have bit-perfect reproduction of source files). I like to adjust the sound and/or soundscape. I make things sound bad more than I make them better, but I still like to fiddle with stuff.

I also used FxSound Enhancer for awhile, before I discovered Stereo Tool. Stereo Tool is very complex. I still consider myself a novice after over 2 years. I use it's forum (https://forums.stereotool.com) to read about stuff and ask questions. There is a "Settings Repository" section where users explain and post settings they use to get various results. I'm fully retired now (little over a year), so I have the time to indulge in this hobby.

I keep my playlists of true 5.1 source files separate from playlists of stereo files. This lets me get through a playlist without having to pause to adjust Matrix Mixer and/or other things.

Anyway, enjoy your music! Unless you're having a party (i.e. trying to please others), it should sound the way you like it. Live long and prosper.

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Old 30th June 2020, 16:36   #7
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Haha, you sound like myself. It's nice to see someone admit they're happy to tamper with sound, for better or worse.

Yes. When I have more time on my hands myself I may consider doing the same and fiddling around with Stereo Tool.

Good idea keeping 5.1 tracks separate from stereo. And yes. So long as I enjoy the sound, who cares about anybody else :P Thank you
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Old 25th April 2021, 20:26   #8
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Might anyone have an idea why I can't load Matrix Mixer in WACUP? Is there a dependency I'm unaware of? The out-mixer.dll plug-in "could not be loaded".
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Old 25th April 2021, 20:48   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Meaney View Post
Might anyone have an idea why I can't load Matrix Mixer in WACUP? Is there a dependency I'm unaware of? The out-mixer.dll plug-in "could not be loaded".

perhaps you should ask the question on this forum? --> https://getwacup.com/
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Old 24th April 2022, 18:10   #10
the_breeze
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just got WinampMatrixMixer and it's awesome. except for the name. I'm going to call it WMM.

the volumes in the Mixer Matrix were said (above) to be 0 or 1 for off/on, but 0.7071 for 50% and other values such as 25% or 75% are unknown.

0.7071 for 50% suggests the SIN of the volume, since a 50% volume would correspond to a 45 degree angle and SIN(45) is 0.7071. so is COS(45) but when volume=1 angle=90 and SIN(90)=1 so it's not the COS function.

however, with some experimentation, 0.5 sounds like 50% volume and 0.7071 sounds more like 70% volume. so A) the above poster was wrong, and B) it's not a trig function. just a percent function.
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Old 24th April 2022, 20:41   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Meaney View Post
Might anyone have an idea why I can't load Matrix Mixer in WACUP? Is there a dependency I'm unaware of? The out-mixer.dll plug-in "could not be loaded".
Sorry I didn't see this when it was posted last year. The original Matrix Mixer plug-in is not compatible with WACUP. Dro (WACUP's developer) modified it to work.

Register on the WACUP site and sent dro a pm asking how to get the modified version. It still needs more work (related to adjusting and saving it's settings), but works well enough on my system (I manually edit it's configuration file) with my WACUP configuration. I would post it here, but I'm not sure if that is allowed.

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Old 24th April 2022, 21:02   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by the_breeze View Post
...

however, with some experimentation, 0.5 sounds like 50% volume and 0.7071 sounds more like 70% volume. so A) the above poster was wrong, and B) it's not a trig function. just a percent function.
My comments in post #2 above are based on what I read on the site mentioned in post #4 above (which I didn't fully understand at the time and still don't). I posted the site's url so that others could read and get their own understanding of how things work.

I know nothing about the math involved. Like you, I experimented with values between 0 and 1 until I got the volume in the various channels that I was looking for. Different people hear things differently, so the important thing is how it sounds to you. I've also found that the Winamp and OS volume settings affect things. I've set my Winamp volume to 100& and the OS speakers volume to 85%. I then use the volume control on my speaker system to adjust the overall volume up and down while listening to stuff.

I also should admit that I now use WACUP much more than Winamp.

I'm curious as to what is your issue with the plug-in's name. It does describe what the plug-in does.

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Old 25th April 2022, 15:31   #13
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the manual at the link doesn't say exactly what the values in the Mixer Matrix are. at one time it says they are a "part" of the signal

Quote:
Row determines what we'll hear from corresponding output channel. For matrix shown above from left chanel we'll hear 1 part of input left channel, part of center channel, lowered left surround and LFE.
another time it says they are a "factor"

Quote:
Column determines where input channel will be mixed. For matrix shown above center channel will be routed to left and right channel with factor 0.7. So we'll hear center channel in center of left and right speakers.
nowhere does it mention percent or % or trig functions.

one clue is where it describes Normalize Matrix

Quote:
Normalize marix - matrix normalization. When this option is enabled matrix is normalized so it is no overflow at output (sum of channels at output < 1).
but, the screenshot they show has 1's and 0.7071's which don't add up to <1 either across a row or down a column. however on my computer I set the options to Auto Matrix and the columns don't add up to <1 but the rows are <1. so their example doesn't agree with what they are saying but the working parameters on my computer do.

on my computer the Matrix Mixer has various entries of 0.5, 0.3536 and 0.7071 and as said above, 0.7071 suggests a trig function but 0.3536 does not. SIN(20.708)= 0.3536 and COS(69.292)= 0.3536 so it's not really suggestive of anything.

finally, 0.5 sounds like 50% and 0.7071 sounds like 70% so yuou can assume 0.25 is 25% and 0.75 is 75% and so on. the entries would be decimal fractional signal.

WinampMatrixMixer is too hard to remember. Wimamp Matrix Master? Winamp Matrix Wizard? what was it?
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Old 26th April 2022, 01:22   #14
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Hi the_breeze,

As I said before, I don't understand what the math discussion in the manual really means.

For me, the plug-in's name makes sense and is not hard to remember. The out_mixer.dll plug-in is for Winamp and it uses a matrix to allow channel mixing.

Anyway I'm glad you like using it. I've been using it for years and like the way it makes my stereo files sound on my 5.1 speaker system. It lets me compensate for the physical locations of my speakers (which are not symmetrically placed) and expand the listening sweet spot. I keep the auto gain, auto matrix, bass redirection, expand stereo, normalize, and voice control options turned off. I also use the free version of a DSP plug-in called Stereo Tool instead of Winamp's built-in equalizer. This helps me make my music sound even better to me.

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Old 26th April 2022, 03:22   #15
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I forgot to mention that I experimented with different combinations of positive and negative values until I got my left and right front speakers to sound different than my left and right rear speakers. This gives me a pseudo 5.1 soundscape.

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Old 1st May 2022, 21:24   #16
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sounds like you would be better served going to the Gains tab and adjusting the Output Gains.
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Old 4th May 2022, 03:56   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by the_breeze View Post
sounds like you would be better served going to the Gains tab and adjusting the Output Gains.
I adjusted the output gains a little (to change the loudness of each channel), in addition to the matrix settings (to change the sound from each channel). For me, using the output gains alone lead to distortion and didn't let me control the sound.

Over the years that I have used this plug-in, I have experimented with the gains and all the other options available (e.g. the delay options to account for the distance from the speakers to the listening area) until I found what works for my ears.

The whole point of this plug-in is too allow each user to adjust things (slightly expand and alter the sound stage) to their liking that works with their music files and system.

What I did was make a few small adjustments and lived with them for a few hours or days while listening to different music genres. Then I made a few more adjustments and repeated the listening process. Of course this procedure took a long time and for me small changes (up or down) here and there worked out better than large ones.

I never found 1 group of settings that worked well for all of my music. I've settled on 5 groups that I switch among depending on what genre of music I'm listening to.

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