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Old 14th April 2014, 07:48   #1
Satuim
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Winamp really doesn't like Windows Media Player...

It is to do with the Album Art.
When ever file are loaded in the WMP; Winamp will fill songs that don't have any album art with one of my other albums art.
This will only happen in Winamp and other players will not get affected.
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Old 14th April 2014, 07:58   #2
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or it could be wmp messing with the local artwork files and causing issues with Winamp's cache / reading due to wmp locking the files or something I cannot think off at the moment.

as that looks more like a Winamp cache issue where its not able to read in the artwork as expected and is sticking with the last image it could load. what version of Winamp are you using? and what OS? and what does it look like when wmp isn't running? and is it just one file type affected or is it happening with any file type?
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Old 14th April 2014, 12:16   #3
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Hi Satuim,

In addition, if you are using a Windows version newer that XP, the OS tries to be helpful by creating folder art for your music folders that the Explorer file manager uses. These folder art files are marked hidden, so you have to enable the options to show hidden and system files in Explorer in order to see and delete them. After the cleanup, you should disable those options again to help prevent 'accidents' with important hidden/system files. It may be helpful to also enable the option to show filename extensions, if it is not enabled already.

There could be more than one of the same image, with different file names, added to each folder. The trouble occurs because one of these filenames is one of the ones that Winamp looks for when selecting external albumart to display. The rules Winamp uses for selecting albumart have been posted several times. You can find them with the forum's search tool.

Explorer will use the image files that you provide, but the OS from time to time will override or add to them. I'm not sure what triggers the OS to do this, but it uses WMP to download the images. So if it is feasible for you, you can disable WMP's web access to prevent this from happening.

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Old 14th April 2014, 14:24   #4
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WMP/Zune/Xbox Music Player - all do record locking on album art while indexing/playing or updating. This will prevent Winamp from reading through the list and caching album art/images/covers.

There are settings with WMP to prevent this; however there are not for Zune/Xbox (these rely on Group Policy Exceptions or registry entries). In any event, the real issue here is that one is overriding the other and/or locking the ability of Winamp from being able to correctly index/read album art.


WMP
>Ctrl+T (opens tools menu)
>Tools->Options->Library
>Uncheck "Retrieve additional information over the internet" box

AND/OR

How to Prevent From Updating Album Info Again:
>Go on "Windows Media Player"
>Click on the tiny arrow at the bottom of "Library"
>Click on "More Options..."
>Uncheck "Retrieve Additional Information From Internet"
>Click "Ok"

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Old 14th April 2014, 14:26   #5
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i'm not sure how record locking is in effect when Winamp only uses it's local db or accesses the file itself - there is no interaction with WMP's database in any aspect.

most likely it's something either wrong in Winamp's cache handling (likely based on all of the complaints previously) or WMP has created a file which Winamp is then seeing as a viable piece of artwork to revert to as Aminifu mentions.

for Satuim it might be good to check what is indicated as the artwork on a alt+3 dialog (which will also indicate where Winamp is trying to read the artwork from) to see if it matches the library view or if it's picking up a general folder/cover image.
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Old 14th April 2014, 14:35   #6
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My understanding of WMP is that it loads through network a matched id3 tag for the album art and downloads to the folder setting as found with the index. While reading, iterating through the music collection array...each indexed item is record locked until the eos/eof factory receiver has been marked as true. As each item is downloaded (or grouping as I believe that WMP does multi-threaded downloads for ID3 related metadata It grabs the artwork and places into directory.

If Winamp is set to the same directory path (say the music folder). Then the album art will not be correctly loaded while WMP is generating the index; collection cache as the MP3 and additional index files that are associated are temporarily locked until the collection cache has been flushed from WMP.


[Note]
Not the greatest way to do it.

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Old 14th April 2014, 23:46   #7
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I'm not sure I understand what winamp is being blamed for here?

WMP is crap, but I know well how it works. it very often times will seek out music files and update the tags / art for any it finds without asking and in the background.

for art, it has the very bad manners of replacing existing files. WMP may read embedded art, but it does not itself embed. it places hidden / system attributed files in the folder in which the music files reside. it will even replace its OWN DL'd art if you have more than one albums worth of files in a given folder.

it gets its art from allmusic.com

it places 4 art files in a folder. it used to be 2 of 200x200 and 2 of 75x75 but that may now be different since ROVI bought allmusic and upgraded the art at their website. one file is named Folder.jpg (a 200x200 one) ...the rest have odd names.

all winamp does is use whatever art (as per its own protocol) it finds in a given folder, (assuming it finds nothing embedded). so what is winamp doing wrong?

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Old 15th April 2014, 00:29   #8
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Nothing, were talking about the problem with WMP.

As stated some settings can interfere with Winamp normal operation; though DrO points out that there may be an altogether separate issue with regards to Winamp Cache or etc.

I'd settle on the statement that WMP is doing something wonky with the Album Art that is causing Winamp a load of hurt. Generally, as I stated WMP does record locking, system attributes on images, and etc. etc. etc.

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Old 15th April 2014, 00:44   #9
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ok, but without more info from the OP, I don't see anything that indicates anything other than expected behavior. I don't see anything that suggests a cache issue or record locking.

all I see is what one should expect if one allows WMP to tamper with their files. winamp is only reflecting the reality of that tampering, nothing more.

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Old 15th April 2014, 03:45   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by garetjax View Post
There are settings with WMP to prevent this; ...
I had disabled the option you indicated and still would have artwork added from time to time. Since I've blocked WMP's web access, I've not had this happen. I don't know if this is really working since I don't know what triggers the OS to use WMP to add the artwork in the first place. Maybe I just have not done whatever it is. Maybe IE would be used in the background if WMP can not be.

I have my Windows Explorer set to use thumbnails instead of icons. Sometimes after a reboot some thumbnails are recreated. Maybe this has something to do with triggering the artwork creation.

I only use embedded art so this is not a problem for me with Winamp. But many users prefer to use external image files and Winamp gets blamed for what Windows is doing.

When I look at the root folder of my music folders I should see an image of a folder with 2 artwork images in it for each of the subfolders. The 2 images are the embedded images in the 2 most recent files within each subfolder. When the OS adds artwork, the image of the subfolders affected contain only 1 image. This is how I know the OS has added artwork.

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Old 15th April 2014, 10:33   #11
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Some clearing up

Quote:
Originally Posted by DrO View Post
or it could be wmp messing with the local artwork files and causing issues with Winamp's cache / reading due to wmp locking the files or something I cannot think off at the moment.

as that looks more like a Winamp cache issue where its not able to read in the artwork as expected and is sticking with the last image it could load. what version of Winamp are you using? and what OS? and what does it look like when wmp isn't running? and is it just one file type affected or is it happening with any file type?
5.666 (latest build)
Windows 7
When WMP isn't running, it is the same.
Any file type, MP3, ACC.

This will affect any file type without art and will be pixelated.
The tampered album art will not appear in something like MP3Tag.

I have disabled the option in WMP and now I need to know the directory where WMP keeps it cache.
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Old 15th April 2014, 10:38   #12
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so it's most likely that there's something in the folder which you don't want but Winamp is seeing. can you please check via the alt+3 dialog to see if that is showing the artwork and if it is, what mode it is indicating in the header text on the dialog please.
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Old 15th April 2014, 11:37   #13
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Yep it appears as though it is added but in MP3Tag it isn't there!

Even worse it appears on .wav as well! And I don't think .wav can even handle tags...
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Old 15th April 2014, 11:44   #14
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that screenshot helps a lot. it's because it's matching to a folder.jpg in the folder where the files are (as shown just above the image itself).

so technically Winamp is doing things correctly for how it has been coded to do since it will go from embedded to a range of other image matches to attempt to find artwork to show, which in a number of cases is not going to be correct (as you're seeing) but that's the effect of trying to guess.

so if you're not liking what it's finding, you need to go through and determine which folder.jpg are not right and remove them (that's the easiest starting point).

i've got it in on my long list of things to look at to provide a means to control what artwork and in what order it is used by Winamp. but for the time being, you're going to have to do some tidying up of the artwork in the folders where you've got your media stored.
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Old 15th April 2014, 12:04   #15
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And, if you don't use the Explorer "Tools - Folder Options - View" dialog to enable showing the hidden and protected operating system files, you will not see all of the artwork files in the folders. But Winamp will 'see' them and use those that are named in a way that it looks for.

Winamp no longer downloads artwork and if you did not put the images in the folders yourself, then they got there the way I tried to explain in post #3 above.

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Old 15th April 2014, 12:31   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Satuim View Post
5.666 (latest build)
Windows 7
When WMP isn't running, it is the same.
Any file type, MP3, ACC.

This will affect any file type without art and will be pixelated.
The tampered album art will not appear in something like MP3Tag.

I have disabled the option in WMP and now I need to know the directory where WMP keeps it cache.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Satuim View Post
Yep it appears as though it is added but in MP3Tag it isn't there!

Even worse it appears on .wav as well! And I don't think .wav can even handle tags...
mp3tag does NOT by default show folder based art at all. you need to configure it to do so.

I don't understand why you think winamp is doing something wrong? it merely is reflecting the dumb things you are allowing WMP to do.

move your files to a place where WMP is not "aware" they are, and configure WMP to not be able to update files, or connect to the net. do the last bit first.

then, put your files in a one album per folder structure.

doing those things should straighten you out. making hidden and system files temporarily available to be seen in windows explorer should allow you to clean up any mess WMP left behind.

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Old 15th April 2014, 17:23   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MrSinatra View Post
ok, but without more info from the OP, I don't see anything that indicates anything other than expected behavior. I don't see anything that suggests a cache issue or record locking.

all I see is what one should expect if one allows WMP to tamper with their files. winamp is only reflecting the reality of that tampering, nothing more.
True, but hardly helpful ... Smacking someone in the face because, they have used a product available on their computer isn't likely the right way to approach being helpful.

Yes, WMP does weird things...but, so to do many other applications. We have all had the time or two that these other programs have affected our experience in some way. We have learned how to handle them and have appropriately changed our behavior so, that we get what we want.

Great solution all around though; and still WMP does wonky things with media content.

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Old 15th April 2014, 17:34   #18
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I wasn't "smacking" anybody. I was however pointing out that there was no reason to blame winamp or look down other rabbit holes or black holes for that matter. I found all the talk about the cache or records locking to be 1. pointless and 2. erroneous. there was nothing to suggest either in what the OP said. I sought only to bring clarity to the issue, and I did provide good advice and the correct diagnosis.

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Old 15th April 2014, 18:32   #19
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To a User: Regardless if it is WMP/XBOX Music or otherwise, Winamp was doing something incorrectly. Even, if reality is that the others were.

To a User: Regardless of your 'understanding' or not. The error existed to them; the fix of course is to not allow WMP to create 'album art';

To a User: You are stating "..dumb things you..."; hardly helpful and downright rude in my assessment.

-----
Record Locking occurs with Windows Media Player and many other players based upon the same system of indexing. This is a reality; no mincing of words here. It also adds attributes (R A and H). Again, no mincing of words stating factual representation of the issues as they will relate to Winamp.

In truth WMP was/is doing what WMP is supposed to do and Winamp was/is doing what it was supposed to do. The issue exists because, they do them differently -rightly so.

Again great solution overall.

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Old 15th April 2014, 19:06   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by garetjax View Post
To a User: Regardless if it is WMP/XBOX Music or otherwise, Winamp was doing something incorrectly. Even, if reality is that the others were.

To a User: Regardless of your 'understanding' or not. The error existed to them; the fix of course is to not allow WMP to create 'album art';
that's all touchy feely nonsense imo. winamp was doing nothing wrong is the reality, and whatever one's false perceptions are, are irrelevant.

I mean honestly, do you disagree? are we at the point now in society where we can't even state uncontroversial facts without it being seen as harsh?

Quote:
Originally Posted by garetjax View Post
To a User: You are stating "..dumb things you..."; hardly helpful and downright rude in my assessment.
grossly taking it out of context. the dumb was a reference to WMP, not the user!

Quote:
Originally Posted by garetjax View Post
-----
Record Locking occurs with Windows Media Player and many other players based upon the same system of indexing. This is a reality; no mincing of words here. It also adds attributes (R A and H). Again, no mincing of words stating factual representation of the issues as they will relate to Winamp.
and the sky is blue and so what? that was my point. all that talk was just confusing the issue and muddying the waters. it had NOTHING to do with it and was not involved in this case and there was nothing said that should have lead anyone to believe it was.

again, I was only trying to bring clarity, I have np with your good intentions, but the speculation was not helpful imo.

btw, the art is HS and maybe RA as well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by garetjax View Post
In truth WMP was/is doing what WMP is supposed to do and Winamp was/is doing what it was supposed to do. The issue exists because, they do them differently -rightly so.

Again great solution overall.
WMP does what its designed to do, on that we agree, but where we disagree is that I believe it should not be designed to do what it does, and more importantly a user should not let it do what its designed to do.

and no matter what a user should not then blame winamp for what WMP does.

all I've been trying to say in this thread is that nothing out of the ordinary was going on here based on the first post. it was obvious to me, based on what was said, that winamp was acting properly and was properly reflecting the bad and dumb behavior of WMP. I only fault the user for blaming winamp, otherwise they just need to learn how each app works. and other than all that, I thought it best to make clear that the speculation for "other possibilities" was not warranted on THIS case, based on the posts the OP made.

no need for anyone to take offense to any of that. just trying to help and be clear.

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Old 15th April 2014, 23:42   #21
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If we avoid using negative characterizations, then we can avoid the need to explain intentions.

It is not helpful to make negative comments about apps without giving the specifics about what is not liked, imo. What is not useful/appropriate for one user could be useful/appropriate for another.

It is not necessary to be negative about a comment, fact, and/or suggested solution in order to emphasize another comment, fact, and/or suggested solution.

With the advances in hardware and software, it is normal to expect the default installations of software to not interfere with each other (however wrong this expectation may be). Many users are afraid that changing the defaults may cause the very problems that the defaults sometimes cause. Confidence and the experience gained over time is needed to overcome this reluctance to change things. It is normal to blame the app that is not performing as expected (even if it is not directly that app's fault).

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Old 15th April 2014, 23:47   #22
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it is not necessary to rubber wall the world, and I have no intention of doing so.

and to suggest that I am somehow alone or first to bad mouth WMP in these forums, or that such bad mouthing is even taboo, is... laughable.

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Old 15th April 2014, 23:59   #23
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and to suggest that I am somehow alone or first to bad mouth WMP in these forums, or that such bad mouthing is even taboo, is... laughable.
Not what I said. I said it is not helpful, when not saying why.

Everyone makes negative comments from time to time about various apps, without saying what is not liked (assuming everyone knows). This is what is not helpful, whoever does it, imo.

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Old 16th April 2014, 00:03   #24
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well the why is obvious is it not? the OP posted what they didn't like and I (and others) said WMP was doing it. how much spelling out needs to be done beyond that?

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Old 16th April 2014, 00:17   #25
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Quote:
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WMP is crap, but I know well how it works. it very often times will seek out music files and update the tags / art for any it finds without asking and in the background.
For me WMP has it's uses. The first time the user tries to use it's library, the opportunity is given to change the default behavior of searching the whole computer in the background and adding what is found to it's library and updating missing meta-data.

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Old 16th April 2014, 00:20   #26
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well, great, but so what?

and just FYI, even when you tell WMP to only add MISSING metadata, it STILL will overwrite existing artwork with what it wants to stick there, which imo, is crap.

in addition, as I mentioned earlier, it will overwrite art in the same dir many times over, if a single dir has multiple files from differing albums in it.

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Old 16th April 2014, 00:30   #27
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Quote:
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well, great, but so what?
Over time I have learned a lot about what WMP (and Winamp and other apps) does. I'm still learning (although I already know what you stated). The trick for me is also learning how to take advantage of what is useful for me and how to avoid what is not.

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Old 16th April 2014, 00:34   #28
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that's fine, np, but your earlier point in this case is moot, b/c as I just said, WMP will IGNORE its own settings re: artwork, so it doesn't matter if it gives users a chance to configure it on first use. so whats crap is how WMP doesn't even follow its own rules and just generally behaves badly. whats wrong with saying so?

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Old 16th April 2014, 00:53   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MrSinatra View Post
so whats crap is how WMP doesn't even follow its own rules ...
Ok, but WMP is not the only app guilty of that. In this case, you gave a reason for calling it crap. I only said (at first) that it is not helpful to cast dispersions and not say why. That general statement was not directed at you alone.

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Old 16th April 2014, 01:19   #30
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Agreed.

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Old 16th April 2014, 02:05   #31
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One solution (which I do not endorse) to this thread's issue is to have Winamp require a unique name for the folder artwork it uses, instead of allowing the use of general names (such as "cover" and "folder") that other apps use.

It will be interesting to see what DrO comes up with related to his last comment in post #14 above.

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Old 16th April 2014, 03:57   #32
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how is that a solution? first of all, winamp doesn't even obtain art, so it has to rely on what other apps do. but secondly, how is breaking an experience, currently working for millions, a solution?

the problem here isn't the filename, its what WMP does and its with people putting differing album files in single folders but not embedding the art.

I can confidently say that winamp will ALWAYS support Folder.* b/c the devs realize they have no choice but to support it, which is why they implemented it in the first place.

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Old 16th April 2014, 05:05   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MrSinatra View Post
how is that a solution?
It is a solution. I don't recommend it because it would cause people to change what they have become comfortable with.

Winamp no longer downloads artwork itself, but even when it did users could use artwork they acquired themselves as long as it met the design naming rules. These rules already allow other names (using them is not as popular as simply using "cover" or "folder").

WMP comes with the OS and is on more systems than Winamp. So the argument could be made that Winamp should adjust to what WMP is doing. I'm not making that argument.

It is fairly simple for Winamp users to adjust and do what they need to do to avoid the problem, once they are aware of the issue. Maybe using "cover" instead of "folder" would be a solution too, since "folder" is the last name Winamp looks for, afaik, and "cover" is not used by WMP, but "folder" is.

Maybe "cover" is used by other apps. Having apps use unique names would solve the problem.

I avoid it all and the need to put songs from different albums in separate folders by using embedded art. But, I also only use formats that allow that.

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Old 16th April 2014, 06:28   #34
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OK, I was able to delete the folder.jpg inside Winamp (No need to view hidden folders)
And the problem is gone now.
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Old 16th April 2014, 06:54   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Satuim View Post
OK, I was able to delete the folder.jpg inside Winamp (No need to view hidden folders)
And the problem is gone now.
Great that you found a solution that works for you! If a wrong image comes back or you later add art and it changes, you now know some things you can do. I assume you meant hidden files, not folders.

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Old 16th April 2014, 10:51   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aminifu View Post
I assume you meant hidden files, not folders.
Yes, I did.

And MrSinatara
I did not think Winamp was causing trouble, I knew WMP was doing something funny with the artwork.
It is just that Winamp was the only player that could actually see it.
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Old 16th April 2014, 11:25   #37
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winamp is not the only player that can see it, lots of other apps can see it too, including of course WMP which only makes sense as it put it there. and as I said, mp3tag can too if configured to do so. squeezebox will see it too, and so will lots of others. some won't, like iTunes, but iTunes is complete shit in many ways, so that's not really a surprise.

sure, you can delete in winamp, but WMP might stick it right back unless u take steps to prevent it.

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Old 16th April 2014, 13:27   #38
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the screenshot (which is not final and just something i knocked up, but covers the basics from what is listed at http://forums.winamp.com/showpost.ph...0&postcount=18) shows what could be done with the artwork handling as a basic implementation so it's possible to control how Winamp does its artwork against how it currently works.

i know there's also been numerous requests to control the order of some of the aspects and i've still to think through whether to do it or not (since it'll add complexity to the lookup) or i can just enable it for the few cases requested (like albumart.* before folder.* lookups or something like that).

either way, it's a starting point for artwork control (and is reasonable to add a preference page for it due to the control needed) which may help for the issue this thread raised of how to cope with interoperability with other clients and differing file handling (one folder vs specific folders, etc). though it has to be realistic that embedding (despite it wasting space on albums) is the better option to ensure the correct artwork is provided from the correct file as everything else is effectively sensible guessing which gets fuzzier the further you go down the list.
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Old 16th April 2014, 21:36   #39
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that's neat.

I would suggest allowing users the ability to arrange the order, that they all be on by default, and I would also suggest adding a final *.jpg/png/etc mode that is not on by default, so that winamp can use any art it happens to find, that might not otherwise fit your list of check boxes.

in my usage, I would prob arrange it so that embeds are first, followed by Folder.jpg which I use for 99% of my stuff, followed by the rest, including the wildcard mode, all enabled.

also, I would allow winamp to display / use the image, even if it has the wrong extension on the filename, or at least put up some kind of indicator image that is the case.

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Old 16th April 2014, 21:46   #40
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i said that some sort of control of the order would have to be considered, but it introduces the potential to break things and needs to be done right if it is done.

a generic image match is really not a good idea (even if it's off by default) as that's too vague and would very likely cause more complaints than the folder.* matching causes when enabled.

the whole point of the current order is to go from most specific to the least reasonable but still vaguely specific match (as the best chance of the correct match is what has to be done by default). going one more and matching to any random file just makes me cringe.

which is also why folder.* is near the bottom of the list as it's often vague as just because you and others organise things by folders (which makes folder.* viable to use), many do not and care not to do so and so making the defaults more likely to cause issues for those means the defaults will unlikely be changed from how they are already (and if anything, folder..* is more likely to be moved to the bottom of the list and disabled by default as it's the prime reason for the majority of reports about bad artwork).
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