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Old 13th January 2005, 23:03   #1
MidnightViper88
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Fossil fuel consumption slows global warming?

Now, I'm one to believe this global warming hype is a bunch of bullshit from either side looked at...The earth will warm and cool however and whenever it wants to, because nature works like that...The weather is indifferent from how humans live; Explain how the Earth's warming trend accelerated these past years since it's start in the 1500s (Even though SUVs didn't exsist back then), or all the snow the eastern US, Texas, and southern California got...

However, this article caught my eye...

http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/L12551308.htm

Quote:
Fossil fuel curbs may speed global warming-scientists
13 Jan 2005 00:00:42 GMT

Source: Reuters

By Matt Falloon

LONDON, Jan 13 (Reuters) - Cutting down on fossil fuel pollution could accelerate global warming and help turn parts of Europe into desert by 2100, according to research to be aired on British television on Thursday. "Global Dimming", a BBC Horizon documentary, will describe research suggesting fossil fuel by-products like sulphur dioxide particles reflect the sun's rays, "dimming" temperatures and almost cancelling out the greenhouse effect.

The researchers say cutting down on the burning of coal and oil, one of the main goals of international environmental agreements, will drastically heat rather than cool climate.

"When the cooling affect goes away -- and it must do because particles like sulphur dioxide are damaging to humans -- global warming will be much stronger," climate change scientist Dr Peter Cox told Reuters on Wednesday.

Temperatures could increase in the worst case by up to 10 degrees by the end of the century, the researchers said -- much more than current estimates.

Scientists differ as to whether global warming is caused by man-made emissions of carbon dioxide and other "greenhouse" gases, by natural climate cycles or if it exists at all.

Take away fossil fuel by-products like sulphur dioxide without tackling greenhouse gas emissions, and the extra heat will speed warming, irreversibly melting ice sheets and rendering rain forests unsustainable within decades, Dr Cox said.

"The climate will warm more in the future but the ability of the land to store carbon dioxide will be compromised," he said, adding that warmer soil was less able to hold the greenhouse gas.
Someone explain that!

"I just want to lie in my own crusty filth, eating rancid egg sandwiches, until some unfortunate paramedic has to blow down my door to find my bloated and pasty corpse wedged between the nightstand and mattress stained with Bengay and Robitussin DM." - Greg Gutfeld on sex and seniors
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Old 13th January 2005, 23:11   #2
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my personal belief is that it is fuetal to worry about the environment like that. We simply have not built up enough real data to know anything about our climate or what it is supposed to do.

It's fine if you believe what you believe because you like a blue sky, or would like not to worry about the food you consume. Using global warming as some sort of excuse to cut production or raise costs is really pushing it.

As far as fossil fuels, it's pretty much inevitable that at some point in the very near future we will run into shortage problems, and that is why we need to reduce our dependency on them.
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Old 13th January 2005, 23:55   #3
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Re: Fossil fuel consumption slows global warming?

Quote:
Originally posted by MidnightViper88
Someone explain that!
Simple: If it weren't for sulphur dioxide (which causes acid rain) and other pollutants global warming would be even worse.

In other words just reducing these substances (via filters etc.) may do more harm than good and the only solution is to drastically reduce fossil fuel consumption.

Got it, car-hugger?
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Old 14th January 2005, 04:19   #4
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The new fuel-efficent vechile being developed by Ford:

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Old 14th January 2005, 06:32   #5
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I watched that program last night, it put up a very good argument for it. People who just dismiss this kind of research clearly have no idea how much crap we put into the air every day. I'm sorry but we are more than capable of doing enough damage to our environment to do serious lasting damage.

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Old 14th January 2005, 10:14   #6
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Quote:
Originally posted by Phily Baby
I watched that program last night, it put up a very good argument for it. People who just dismiss this kind of research clearly have no idea how much crap we put into the air every day. I'm sorry but we are more than capable of doing enough damage to our environment to do serious lasting damage.
That's what I thought throughout the entire time I read that article. REGARDLESS of what it might do to the Global Warming problem, People are still suffering from the various illnesses from the Pollution of cars, SUVs, Freight Trucks, Industry, etc.

But I guess he's saying that cutting on Fossil Fuel pollution will allow the sun to shine through our MESSED UP Ozone and cause problems. BUUUUT if Mother Nature is as resourcful as everyone knows, there should be double the field/forest fires and volcano erruptions to compensate enough until the Ozone recovers.

Still it was a good try for them though. BUT it still dosen't justify making some people go to work with masks on because the "Ozone watch" level was high that last couple of days.
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Old 14th January 2005, 16:27   #7
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I agree completely with Gaekwad and Phily Baby. Just make a list of the compounds that come of of burning fossil fuels and see what they do to an individual human being. Most of them'll poison you.

Quote:
BUUUUT if Mother Nature is as resourcful as everyone knows, there should be double the field/forest fires and volcano erruptions to compensate enough until the Ozone recovers.
Nature is very tolerant but not that much. Ozone is going to take centuries to recover.

I think it's fairly obvious that the human race is destroying the natural environment of this planet.
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Old 14th January 2005, 18:46   #8
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The thing is though, that real life goes on. If they make a eco friendly tree hugging car that has a similar 0-60 time as mine and still maxes out at about 120mph which costs the same, is as cheap and convenient to fill up and run; I'll have one. But until then, I'll continue to drive my car when and where I please.

And you sitting at home are probably sitting there using computers with 500W power supplies that are on 24/7. You all also don't recycle more than about thirty percent of your rubbish, and live in societies that burn fossil fuels like there's no tomorrow. Yeah, me too...

Having said that, the third world and counties such as the soviet union and china are far worse polluters with the types of pollutants that they put out.

Nuclear power, it's the only way forward....
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Old 14th January 2005, 23:09   #9
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The effects fossil fuel gasses have on pollution and the weather are two things to me...

Yes, I keep my catalytic converters on, yes I make sure that my oil isn't burning, but no I don't believe gas-guzzling SUVs don't make the Earth any hotter or colder...

If you wanna get into air pollution, you could look at volcanoes, but I don't wanna get into details...

"I just want to lie in my own crusty filth, eating rancid egg sandwiches, until some unfortunate paramedic has to blow down my door to find my bloated and pasty corpse wedged between the nightstand and mattress stained with Bengay and Robitussin DM." - Greg Gutfeld on sex and seniors
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Old 15th January 2005, 06:45   #10
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just another topic where europeans and americans are from two different planets
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Old 15th January 2005, 10:31   #11
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Just because its called global warming doesn't mean the whole planet heats up. Its more like there are greater fluctuations in weather, paterns changing and such. The stuff that is going on in Cali and Texas is from elNino. The warm body of water that normally resides over the great barrier reef has moved more to the center of the Pacific ocean causing a change in air temperatures which causes Jet streams to move down to California and take my god damn snow away from Washington .

Hawaii has quite a bit of snow right now probably because of the jet stream but I haven't seen any reports indiciating thats why.

Anyways I think that with a population of 6.? billion humans and the average American consuming 4.7 barrels of oil per year (pretty constant) and the number of Americans rising we can come to an assumption that more and more carbon monoxide is being produced from our oil burnning habbits and that stuff has to go somewhere. I don't think we can make acurate measurements of global temperatures in the 1500's but we can see that from industrialization to today that we created a hole in the ozone that has gotten bigger and even split and that the level of carbon dioxide/monoxide whatever in the atmosphere has increased. We can also take into account that our glaciers get smaller and smaller each year.

Explain our small glaciers!

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Old 15th January 2005, 13:10   #12
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Quote:
Originally posted by whiteflip
Explain our small glaciers!
Sorry there isn't enough evidence to say that this isn't a natural occurance. Core samples from the poles would suggest that we are in a warm cycle which has happened 3 times already.

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Old 15th January 2005, 14:42   #13
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Quote:
Originally posted by whiteflip
Explain our small glaciers!
That's only at surface area...

Do you know how much more glacier there is underneath the water?

"I just want to lie in my own crusty filth, eating rancid egg sandwiches, until some unfortunate paramedic has to blow down my door to find my bloated and pasty corpse wedged between the nightstand and mattress stained with Bengay and Robitussin DM." - Greg Gutfeld on sex and seniors
"Syphilis does not stay in Vegas. Debt collectors do not stay in Vegas. Dead hookers stay in Vegas, but the guilt stays with you forever." - Bill Schultz
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Old 15th January 2005, 17:49   #14
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eh? glaciers run down mountains, icebergs float.
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Old 15th January 2005, 18:38   #15
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Ahh, nevermind...Having a brain freeze there...

"I just want to lie in my own crusty filth, eating rancid egg sandwiches, until some unfortunate paramedic has to blow down my door to find my bloated and pasty corpse wedged between the nightstand and mattress stained with Bengay and Robitussin DM." - Greg Gutfeld on sex and seniors
"Syphilis does not stay in Vegas. Debt collectors do not stay in Vegas. Dead hookers stay in Vegas, but the guilt stays with you forever." - Bill Schultz
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Old 16th January 2005, 04:50   #16
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Quote:
Originally posted by Wolfgang
I think it's fairly obvious that the human race is destroying the natural environment of this planet.
The Human Race is a part of the natural environment of this planet. Anything we do is completely 100% natural.
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Old 16th January 2005, 05:48   #17
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im not positive, but the american government still doesnt recognize global warming. certainly there must be some reasoning for this.


what about the clear side effects of pollutants such as smog? yes houston and LA are "all natural" im not talking about global warming on the global level here, this is localized. We do need to worry about what we put into our air, for our own safety. but dont worry, cuz god will save us in the end....
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Old 16th January 2005, 06:32   #18
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Quote:
Originally posted by billyvnilly
im not positive, but the american government still doesnt recognize global warming. certainly there must be some reasoning for this
Most definantly, it's because of economic considerations
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Old 16th January 2005, 08:07   #19
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I read this article in the WSJ about kyoto and stuff. It was real deep. Some scientician guy wants to build CO2 absorber machines that run off of some power source and store the CO2s in like sponge rocks underground.

I also heard from my marine biology teacher that some dudes and ladies wanna try to fertilize the oceans to increase photosynthesis of plankton to process the CO2s and increase fishing ranges. I was like ok like we've been down this manipulating road before with the frogs in Australia and like hydro power with fish and stuff.

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Old 16th January 2005, 11:50   #20
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Quote:
Originally posted by ertmann|CPH
Most definantly, it's because of economic considerations
Exactly.

Quote:
Originally posted by MidnightViper88
The earth will warm and cool however and whenever it wants to, because nature works like that...The weather is indifferent from how humans live;
I've heard people say things along the lines of, "well the Earth can cope and it will stabalise itself out, we have nothing to worry about." But I think you make a good point here. The Earth doen't care what conditions are right to support any kind of life at all. It's just a system that will change based on its inputs; blind and irreverent to the needs of the life forms it is supporting.

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Old 17th January 2005, 13:20   #21
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Quote:
Originally posted by whiteflip
I read this article in the WSJ about kyoto and stuff. It was real deep. Some scientician guy wants to build CO2 absorber machines that run off of some power source and store the CO2s in like sponge rocks underground.

I also heard from my marine biology teacher that some dudes and ladies wanna try to fertilize the oceans to increase photosynthesis of plankton to process the CO2s and increase fishing ranges. I was like ok like we've been down this manipulating road before with the frogs in Australia and like hydro power with fish and stuff.
The Norwegians are already burying waste carbon dioxide under the sea bed. Look here. And the cane toads in Australia, yes, they're a huge problem, but it seems like there might be a solution. They've found out that the males are attracted to females by scent. So the park wardens might start spraying the scent on rocks and trees to get the frogs to shag those thigns instead of the females and make more toads.
Quote:
Another avenue to reduce the impact of cane toads may lie in the toad's extremely good sense of smell. Unlike other frog and toad species, cane toads can detect food from over one kilometre away, which suggest they find food by smell. If the female breeding hormone can be isolated and sprayed on to rocks and other common objects in the bush, males could be lured into amplexus (copulation) with such inappropriate objects and, unable to complete mating, subsequently die through desiccation. Along with a biological control, the ability to identify and isolate hormones may also provide an important and valuable key in the battle to reduce the impact on native wildlife from the inevitable toad invasion.
From here.

They're really ugly fuckers.

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Old 19th January 2005, 04:41   #22
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Quote:
Originally posted by MegaRock
The new fuel-efficent vechile being developed by Ford:
[Image]
You kidding? That thing produces more methane than my dad on five bean burritos. That, and you can't just feed it cheap oil or its motor stops working.
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Old 19th January 2005, 12:57   #23
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Maybe your dad is the transport of the future then.
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Old 19th January 2005, 16:57   #24
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I don't know about that, but I do like riding his mum.

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Old 21st January 2005, 01:44   #25
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Quote:
Originally posted by MidnightViper88
The effects fossil fuel gasses have on pollution and the weather are two things to me...

Yes, I keep my catalytic converters on, yes I make sure that my oil isn't burning, but no I don't believe gas-guzzling SUVs don't make the Earth any hotter or colder...

If you wanna get into air pollution, you could look at volcanoes, but I don't wanna get into details...
Sarcasm, the other, other, other, other white meat.
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Old 21st January 2005, 07:17   #26
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Quote:
Originally posted by Wolfgang
They're really ugly fuckers.

[Image]
The hubby says a good ol' criket bat takes care of those. It's an Aussie national past time
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Old 21st January 2005, 18:32   #27
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Just thought of this....

The main point for the US reluction to press down emissions, are economic considerations - the argument usualy goes like - we're not willing to risk loosing jobs at the sake of environment - as global warming is not "really" a proven fact.

EU countries, on the other hand, have taken the decition, that it's not worth the risk of unreversibly damaging the worlds eco systems, and have imposed - compared to the US - strict measures to cut down emissions

However, you hear extremely few, if any, economists attributing the EU's marginally lower GDP growth rate or unemployment, to the enviromental taxes and measures, allready in effect here.

In fact, one could argue, that the production of windmills, the update or rebuilding of factories to cope with emission standards, the incentives for people to buy new (and lower taxed) cars with lower emissions etc, would atleast neutralise the jobs lost.

My take on it is that the EU (as the worlds biggest economy and the area most concerned about the environment) should impose strict taxes on imported goods that either contains substances dangerous to the environment, or is produced at very poluting facilities - that would force US (and other) companies to comply with EU regulation standards, even though their local goverment don't have the same standards...

Multinational companies won't have any choice but to comply (and if the US administration really IS right, and the enviromental precautions really does hurt the economy) the loss of jobs would be spread, so that not only EU countries takes the impact...

EU flexing it's economic muscle to save the enviroment, is no different than the US flexing it's military muscle to achive their goals, is it? - would proably be the certain death of the WTO, but what the hell... seems like noone like them anyway...
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Old 21st January 2005, 18:48   #28
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Sure, but otoh european corporations also love to produce abroad to circumvent environmental (and other) laws.
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Old 21st January 2005, 18:54   #29
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all the more reason to do so
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Old 21st January 2005, 20:45   #30
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That sounds like a good idea Ertmann.
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Old 22nd January 2005, 04:42   #31
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Quote:
My take on it is that the EU (as the worlds biggest economy and the area most concerned about the environment) should impose strict taxes on imported goods that either contains substances dangerous to the environment, or is produced at very poluting facilities - that would force US (and other) companies to comply with EU regulation standards, even though their local goverment don't have the same standards...
That goes against World Trade Policies. One country can not bar, or restrict trade in order to affect the policies of another country. For instance the US can not ban Mexican tuna because they don't use dolphin friendly methods of fishing. Only if the Mexican tuna didn't meet domestic standards. If the US did such a thing than Mexico could do such another thing and we would have higher tarrifs and world trade would deminish.

Happened with US cattle to the EU recently.

I do think though that more rigorusly promoting fuel economy and alternative means of energy in the US needs to be done. More windmills, nuke plants, surf generators, maybe even more dams. Plus fatty tax breaks on high mpg cars and tax hikes on non-commercial low mpg cars. Because of other jurisdictional crap this has to happen at the national level in congress. Though trying to get it through at the state level would be well worth the effort.

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Old 22nd January 2005, 05:39   #32
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The mess created by Nuclear Power Plants is enormous. Something like 400 000 tonnes of waste generated by Russia so far (it's speculation at this point), and 30 000 or so in Canada.

Nuclear Power is not 'clean power'.

...but is it better than burning hydrocarbons? Frankly, I don't know.
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Old 22nd January 2005, 06:15   #33
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IMO, nuclear is better in terms of waste because that waste is controllable, in that it doesn't just go off into the atmosphere to affect wherever. The waste is contained, we have control of it and we can move it around and store it or even possibly refine more useable fuel out of it.
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Old 22nd January 2005, 08:47   #34
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I say blast it to space on a course for venus. Everyone hates venus. I wish we would get off our asses and invent some Fusion already. That would be sweet.

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Old 22nd January 2005, 13:20   #35
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Quote:
Originally posted by Mattress
IMO, nuclear is better in terms of waste because that waste is controllable, in that it doesn't just go off into the atmosphere to affect wherever. The waste is contained, we have control of it and we can move it around and store it or even possibly refine more useable fuel out of it.


It's arbitrarily cleaner than fossil fuels in my opinion - the main problem is the potential for harm, which lasts a long time but can be contained.

Proper "green" power production is getting more and more viable all the time (not just from cold fusion), but for now our overreliance on fossil fuels (for example the UK's overreliance on natural gas, which is downright frightening) is a serious problem.

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Old 22nd January 2005, 14:18   #36
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Quote:
Originally posted by zootm
Proper "green" power production is getting more and more viable all the time (not just from cold fusion), but for now our overreliance on fossil fuels (for example the UK's overreliance on natural gas, which is downright frightening) is a serious problem.
Yeah, it's piped everywhere and is responsible for people not freezing to death in their beds at night. Once the North Sea's reserved dry up, the UK is fucked.

One of my lecturers develops fuel cells. He's convinced that they're the fuel of the future, particularly ones based on methanol. I don't know much about them, but he reckons they're not as harsh a transition to a new fuel than a transition to, say, solar power, which is why the masses are more likely to adopt it.

I'm not sure though, the masses will adopt anything as long as it'll power them and it's the cheapest thing available.
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Old 22nd January 2005, 21:01   #37
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Quote:
Originally posted by whiteflip
That goes against World Trade Policies. One country can not bar, or restrict trade in order to affect the policies of another country. For instance the US can not ban Mexican tuna because they don't use dolphin friendly methods of fishing. Only if the Mexican tuna didn't meet domestic standards. If the US did such a thing than Mexico could do such another thing and we would have higher tarrifs and world trade would deminish
Well - yes and no - EU have banned products containing chemicals not banned in the US or China for instance, which in turn, have ment the producers are phasing them out alltogether, instead of producing two different products - one for europe and one for the rest of the world. im desperately searching through a book i recently read 'The United States of Europe' that contained a paragraph about this, but i can't seem to find it

One could say that the high tax on fuel gussling cars in Europe is another example of this, the fact that GM and Ford works on technology in fuel efficency at all, are probably because they need it to sell cars in Europe...

Genetically Modified crops are another example, the reason it's not more widely used, is because the EU requires all food containing GM products to be labelled with it, and it's very hard to sell anything that reads 'contains GM ingredients' in Europe...

it's not like it's not happening allready, question is wheather the practice should be strengthed further...

/edit found it, hope i don't get into legal troubles posting a paragraph

Quote:
most of the machines made by U.S company, United Technologies' - air conditioning subsidiary, Carrier, could not be sold in Europe. The EU in 2002 established new recycling regulations for air-conditioning and refrigeration equipment; these rules effectively prohibit the use various chemicals that had been routinely used in Carrier air conditioners (and were acceptable to the U.S. goverment). Since Carrier couldn't possbly give up its european buisness and couldn't economically build machines for a series of different regulatory regimes, the firm bowed to Brussels, and redesigned all equipment to meet tougher European standards [...] American cosmetics makers changed their formula for aftershave lotion because Brussels passed a rule banning Ethanol, and ingredient just fine with the U.S. government. McDonalds changed the rubber toys placed in its Happy Meals all over the world because Brussels passed a rule banning a softening chemical that McDonalds had used for years with no complaints from regulators in Washington, D.C. The EU makes rules that govern Amazon.com's sales techniques, and the bumpers that General Motors puts on its Corvettes and what kind of wheat that General Mills can put in its Wheties. These American companies have no choice but to comply because they need access to the lucrative European Market

T.R. Reid - The United States of Europe, p. 232

Last edited by ertmann|CPH; 22nd January 2005 at 21:52.
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Old 22nd January 2005, 23:35   #38
whiteflip
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Methanol based fuel cells still polute and still relie on natural gas. Its all out electrolisis or nothing. I wan't to be able to drink out of my tail pipe (and not die).

Still I wouldn't mind having some fat wind farms dottin the open plains and coast lines.

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Old 23rd January 2005, 04:56   #39
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Quote:
Originally posted by whiteflip
Still I wouldn't mind having some fat wind farms dottin the open plains and coast lines.
But you'd be killing all those poor birds, PETA won't let you put up wind farms.
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Old 23rd January 2005, 17:02   #40
ertmann|CPH
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4.2 MW turbines, now where talking

Our otherwise horrible liberal government, recently decided to allmost double the size of the worlds allready largest offshore wind park, when that, and the rødsand/nysted are completed, wind energy will supply 17 - 20% of our energy supply

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