Old 21st June 2010, 23:21   #1
SC_faisal
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VLC & SHOUTcast

We were disappointed to see VLC’s announcement today that they were removing access to the SHOUTcast service in VLC. While the SHOUTcast service is proprietary, SHOUTcast has always supported open source development since its birth in 1999 and we will continue to do so in the future. The SHOUTcast API terms of service allow the SHOUTcast API to be incorporated into open source software applications via SHOUTcast API partner program so long as the terms of such open source software do not subject SHOUTcast Radio or the SHOUTcast service to the open source terms.

VLC’s comment that the SHOUTcast Toolbar is spyware is not accurate. The SHOUTcast Toolbar is not spyware. The SHOUTcast toolbar may only be downloaded by a user upon their prior consent.

We will be reaching out directly to VLC to clear up any confusion that exists about this situation.

Thanks!
f.
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Old 22nd June 2010, 11:08   #2
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Am I getting this right?

You say: "6.6 You agree to promote the SHOUTcast Radio toolbar on your web site
and within the documentation of the Integrated Product subject to placement agreed
to by You and Nullsoft in writing. If the Integrated Product is a software download, You agree
to bundle the SHOUTcast Radio toolbar with the Integrated Product."

VLC says: "We don't want to bundle your f***ing toolbar, we don't need it, nobody does! It's our software, promote your toolbar yourself!"

You say: "If you don't, you can't support Shoutcast in your software!"

Then I would say: VLC is damn right not supporting Shoutcast anymore.

Am I missing the point?
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Old 22nd June 2010, 11:38   #3
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I must say, I agree with you, stopasking.
Toolbars are cancer. Am I correct that the bundling would have been delivered in form of a pre-checked option in the installer that gets you this awful thing?
I think VLC is better off without shoutcast support than with bundled adware.

Good riddance as long as terms are like this.
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Old 22nd June 2010, 12:27   #4
SC_faisal
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Thats just it - they never contacted us to ask us any questions for to clarify. Bundling the toolbar has never been a requirement. Had the VLC folks reached out to us to discuss, they would have learnt that we often waive toolbar requirements for partners. We are here to work with our partners. But they never contacted us to discuss... Which is sad and in the end - they took SHOUTcast off VLC and made their end users suffer.

f.
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Old 22nd June 2010, 12:38   #5
stopasking
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So, if it is not the toolbar - maybe it's this?

-----
4.1. You shall enable the Integrated Product only to playback Content accessible through the
Directory Information, and You shall not enable the Integrated Product to record Content available
through the Directory Information. Nothing herein shall be deemed to grant You the right to alter,
download, or record Content available through the Directory Information or SHOUTcast Radio, or to
implement any functionality that would supersede, circumvent, contravene, or otherwise
contradict the anti-circumvention provisions of the Digital Millennium Copyright Act (“DMCA”) and
applicable laws within the Territories in which You will distribute the Integrated Products with respect
to the Content available through the Directory Information.
-----

VLC can record streams... so it doesn't go along with 4.1?

And then there is this:

----
4.5 You shall not, and shall not permit a third party to (a) alter, copy or reproduce any part of
SHOUTcast Radio, or the SHOUTcast Radio Materials; (b) reverse engineer, modify, disassemble,
decompile, or otherwise attempt to derive source code;.
----

Which somehow doesn't fit an open source product / bundle...
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Old 22nd June 2010, 12:56   #6
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Yea.. Who knows why they removed SHOUTcast from VLC... You'll have to ask them...

Fact is hundreds of developers and partners use our APIs to implement the SHOUTcast directory into their products. If we didnt want people to use the API, we wouldnt have an API.


f.
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Old 22nd June 2010, 13:27   #7
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They released a statement about it.

http://www.videolan.org/press/2010-1.html

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Old 22nd June 2010, 13:44   #8
stopasking
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You say, they didn't talk to you. Why should they? Your license states clearly what they are allowed to do and what not. Why do you have such license if "partners" can "talk about" or "waive" various points in it?

Then you say "hundrets of developers and partners are using [y]our APIs" - which - without explanation - means nothing more than "eat shit, millions of flys can't be wrong"!
Instead you should explain to us ("the open source community") what your (I guess it's on your side) problem really is. What more should the videoLAN-team do then releasing a "Press Release"?

You say "talk", I say "deliver facts"! :-)
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Old 22nd June 2010, 13:55   #9
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All I really care about is one thing... Will the new VLC continue to play a Shoutcast stream? I really don't care if it has access to the directory, I'm more concerned about it still playing a stream link from my web page. We aren't pulling any significant number of listeners from the YP so at this point it seems like more of a hassle than it's worth when you combine the fact that our encoders will not work with the new version (SC2) it's looking more and more like I'll join all the rest and just settle on a single Flash stream and be done (next computer upgrade).

I think AOL needs to get with the VLC group and fix this, else you risk becoming a less widely used product (Winamp Pro).

Your mileage may vary!
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Old 22nd June 2010, 16:03   #10
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We are currently in discussions with VLC to clear this up... Hopefully we can resolve this.

f.
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Old 23rd June 2010, 13:21   #11
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http://www.videolan.org/press/2010-1.html

Looks like they want resolution without separation.

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Old 24th June 2010, 21:11   #12
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This would be terrible because I have VLC doing my live Video streaming tightly intergrated with Shoutcast on my site.

If you guys can't figure it out, looks like I'll have to completely switch to IceCast.
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Old 25th June 2010, 12:17   #13
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This would be terrible because I have VLC doing my live Video streaming tightly intergrated with Shoutcast on my site.

If you guys can't figure it out, looks like I'll have to completely switch to IceCast.
Cheers for understanding guys - we dont want SHOUTcast to go away either and neither does VLC... We'll work it out hopefully.

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Old 25th June 2010, 13:26   #14
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I hope this does get resolved faisal,If vlc does dump shoutcast that will be the final nail in the shoutcast coffin for me too.

Im sure your on it

So Long, and Thanks for All the Fish.
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Old 29th June 2010, 21:42   #15
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Any updates on this?

I've already started to compile Icecast and get it running only because if this goes south, I'd like to have a backup plan.
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Old 29th June 2010, 21:45   #16
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Everything takes time with AOL,you probably wont get an update for a while
but the staff always do what they say when time permits them to do so.

So Long, and Thanks for All the Fish.
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Old 29th June 2010, 22:14   #17
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big ups and thanks for the information. =)
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Old 7th July 2010, 17:21   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SC_faisal View Post
We were disappointed to see VLC’s announcement today that they were removing access to the SHOUTcast service in VLC. While the SHOUTcast service is proprietary, SHOUTcast has always supported open source development since its birth in 1999 and we will continue to do so in the future. The SHOUTcast API terms of service allow the SHOUTcast API to be incorporated into open source software applications via SHOUTcast API partner program so long as the terms of such open source software do not subject SHOUTcast Radio or the SHOUTcast service to the open source terms.

VLC’s comment that the SHOUTcast Toolbar is spyware is not accurate. The SHOUTcast Toolbar is not spyware. The SHOUTcast toolbar may only be downloaded by a user upon their prior consent.

We will be reaching out directly to VLC to clear up any confusion that exists about this situation.

Thanks!
f.
This was on slashdot awhile ago, I was under the impression the reason for this was the binary only nature of shoutcast coupled with AOL sending them nasty letters telling them to comply.

I can't imagine how the GPL could possibly implicate nullsoft, if it did, then couldn't one just create a binary using GCC or something, thereby forcing microsoft to turn over their source? :-)

Which leaves me asking, if not the toolbar requirement, then what were they in violation of? why the "injunctions by e-mail from employees at AOL"?

I do hope the shoutcast team can reach out to VLC, as their media player has been quite popular, we'll probably loose a lot of listeners because of this.

My main complaint with shoutcast so far, is that it's not open source and as such, you're kind of relegated to using the shoutcast server as they see fit, on platforms they see fit.

Other than that, I'm really impressed by the directory make-over, good job!
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Old 7th July 2010, 17:34   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Greg_E View Post
it's looking more and more like I'll join all the rest and just settle on a single Flash stream and be done (next computer upgrade).

I think AOL needs to get with the VLC group and fix this, else you risk becoming a less widely used product (Winamp Pro).
While I totally agree about the VLC aspect, I'd encourage you not to go with a "flash" stream, I left live365 because their $@#% proprietary flash player was always crashing and many people couldn't use it.

You might also loose out on non-web listeners who are using cel phones or the so-called "wi-fi" radios.
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Old 8th July 2010, 04:56   #20
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I hit up the VLC forums, and you can still listen to shoutcast via vlc. You just can't browse the shoutcast directory.

I did verify that downloading VLC 1.1.0 -> open network stream -> myshoutcastserver and it works.

Also, with some nifty VLC work, you can use VLC to connect to a shoutcast server and spit out a .FLV stream that any Flash Based FLV player will display. I have real time examples of it for my dj website.

pm me for links, dont want to spam the public forum.
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Old 8th July 2010, 05:46   #21
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yeah i figured this one out as well.

The one thats really going to boggle you though is when I show you AAC+ flash through an embedable Longtail/JWplayer. Took some time to figure it out.


The only reason VLC can do that is that it can ignore meta headers with the file being passed. Play enough files, your going to crash it or it will freeze (still playing the stream and seeming functional)

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Old 8th July 2010, 17:29   #22
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the cheap way to do it is have vlc transcode from acc+ back to mp3.

You can extend the crashing bit by bringing down your over all audio bit rate.

I take my 128k stream, and dither it down to 64k via vlc, it still sounds pretty good, and I can stream it for around 26 hours before my longtail flash player crashes. I just close the window and click on my link to bring it back up. Strangly, people using a Mac watching/listening to the same stream do not have that problem.

Thats really the problem with flv/flash, it downloads it and plays it at the same time. You can find the file in your cache and replay the file .

I've already got bits in place to stream h264/mp3 so i will not have to worry about the above when html5 makes a real splash. (I hope)
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Old 9th July 2010, 01:54   #23
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I noticed this too. Im no guru, but Im pretty sure the flash AAC+ trick KH24 is doing is having the server send the magic headers with the stream to fool the listening clinet (this why you have to input the arguements into the URL calls)

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Old 16th July 2010, 06:42   #24
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most people never use the directory inside VLC anyway. I just Downloaded the .pls file and opened it in VLC and it plays.

Its starting to sound like I'll eventually more people will just want to go Icecast. At least Icecast has supported OGG for quite some time and OGG sounds good at low bitrates as well.

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http://nextkast.com

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Old 18th July 2010, 23:43   #25
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My beef with Icecast is not as many people know about it as Shoutcast.
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Old 4th August 2010, 13:22   #26
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In regards to ogg,there is support within the original uvox code well,
its listed in the classtypes for uvox frames.
I have tested it with uvox 2.1(sc2), but the dnas did not repackage
the data correctly when serving the ogg stream(didnt play in vlc)
So it failed.
With mp3 now requiring a licence fee ogg/vorbis would be a great
alternative to support for those who don't not wish to pay.

We will see what happens,However if icecast goes on to support webm
streaming,the switch will be a no brainer.

So Long, and Thanks for All the Fish.
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Old 4th August 2010, 13:59   #27
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Does WMP and iTunes support ogg? If not you will never grow a big set of listeners which may or may not be an issue for many people.

There are enough open source mp3 encoders out that it should be easy to put one of them into the DSP so that shouldn't be much of an issue except for the fact that the DSP does not make them one bit of money so is probably such a low priority that it doesn't even appear on the page.

Your mileage may vary!
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Old 4th August 2010, 14:04   #28
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Any future version of the dsp will require an mp3 licence the same as sc_trans.
Do not doubt this for a second.And of course aacplus may follow.

edit:
Of course the licence could be absorbed by the price of winamp pro
since there would be increased sales in such a situation.
And you already need pro to unlock mp3 transcoding.

So Long, and Thanks for All the Fish.

Last edited by Jkey; 4th August 2010 at 14:13. Reason: Null
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Old 4th August 2010, 16:24   #29
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Quote:
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Does WMP and iTunes support ogg? If not you will never grow a big set of listeners which may or may not be an issue for many people.

There are enough open source mp3 encoders out that it should be easy to put one of them into the DSP so that shouldn't be much of an issue except for the fact that the DSP does not make them one bit of money so is probably such a low priority that it doesn't even appear on the page.
The 'open source' peice is fine, however to actually encode a MP3 you are supposed to pay for a license as the technique/patent is on the method, not the coding of how to make it work.

All MP3 encoders are supposed to pay, very few do, which is why when you do pay it is actually quite high, compensating for the millions who do not.

BW

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Old 4th August 2010, 16:27   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jkey View Post
In regards to ogg,there is support within the original uvox code well,
its listed in the classtypes for uvox frames.
I have tested it with uvox 2.1(sc2), but the dnas did not repackage
the data correctly when serving the ogg stream(didnt play in vlc)
So it failed.
With mp3 now requiring a licence fee ogg/vorbis would be a great
alternative to support for those who don't not wish to pay.

We will see what happens,However if icecast goes on to support webm
streaming,the switch will be a no brainer.
I suspect you need to use an alternative data class and the data message type for OGG is 0x8001, rather than 0x7000 which is MP3.

The latest specifcation I can find is november 2007, so it may have changed since then.

BW

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Old 4th August 2010, 17:58   #31
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I suspect you need to use an alternative data class and the data message type for OGG is 0x8001, rather than 0x7000 which is MP3.

The latest specifcation I can find is november 2007, so it may have changed since then.

BW

I have put together a library for uvox 2.1(sc2) which has a slightly different
protocol to those stated in public docs.
This was done by reversing sc2 tcp traffic.

With sc2 as well as setting the frame datatype to ogg you can send content type
in the initial connection sequence.

my library is missing only one thing uvoxuserid:uvoxauth encryption.
It is totally different to the documented encryption used in the uvox 2 source.
And so far my attempts to aquire this info from aol and other sources
have been met by a hard brick wall.

So Long, and Thanks for All the Fish.
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Old 4th August 2010, 18:56   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jkey View Post
I have put together a library for uvox 2.1(sc2) which has a slightly different
protocol to those stated in public docs.
This was done by reversing sc2 tcp traffic.

With sc2 as well as setting the frame datatype to ogg you can send content type
in the initial connection sequence.

my library is missing only one thing uvoxuserid:uvoxauth encryption.
It is totally different to the documented encryption used in the uvox 2 source.
And so far my attempts to aquire this info from aol and other sources
have been met by a hard brick wall.
It looks like a substitution cipher, if you change the key in the sc_serv2 you can see how the hash changes, however it may be something simpler like md5 or hmac I do need to do some work on it, to see if I am correct.

Both segments use the cipher separately so give you something to go at.

BW

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Old 4th August 2010, 22:09   #33
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Encryption is one of my weaknesses,so If you do get any info that could help please pm
me.

So Long, and Thanks for All the Fish.
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Old 14th August 2010, 14:17   #34
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I must say, I agree with you, stopasking.
Toolbars are cancer. Am I correct that the bundling would have been delivered in form of a pre-checked option in the installer that gets you this awful thing?
I think VLC is better off without shoutcast support than with bundled adware.

Good riddance as long as terms are like this.
While most toolbars aren't cancerous & installation is an option if you read the onscreen instructions in most of these cases, they are needless & serve no useful purpose IMO. Anyone who's ever tried to use IE with toolbars enabled can attest to this. IE has been LITERALLY unusable ever since it started supporting toolbars IMO. Mozilla Firefox isn't as bad & is usable but is bloated itself with toolbars enabled.

As such, I support VLC & its decision to discontinue the SHOUTcast YP display. Hopefully they will replace it with something else like Icecast someday.

Cheers

Pat Cook
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